High speed sync enough?

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Thanks, you're exactly the sort of upper-level, frequent location shooter whose experience most interests me. You raise several points to digest, but if you'll indulge a couple more questions:

As I recall, you're a Pentax 645Z shooter. I know Pentax has offered some leaf-shutter lenses that will work with the 645Z, although I don't recall any of them being modern auto-focus lenses. You mention the Pentax 645 75mm LS being limited to 1/500 s. Is there a viable (for your uses) Pentax 645 LS lens, and if so, do you use it sometimes?

Click to expand...

1/500th is generally too slow for the situations where I'd want to use a leaf lens, so I never bothered purchasing a Pentax leaf lens. For me, at only 1/500th, HSS and HS are viable alternatives. *However, when it comes to all-around use, at slower shutter speeds above x-sync, leaf shutter lenses are my preference to use. When I want to shoot at shutter speeds high enough to negate hand shake, but slow enough to allow ambient light to affect the scene, with a leaf shutter I can easily do that without having to worry whether or not the particular flash or strobe support HSS or HS.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

If not, did you decide to live with the compromises and limitations HSS imposes, instead of gaining only two or three stops versus the 645Z's x-sync?

Click to expand...

The Pentax 645Z is my daily use camera, but previously I had access to several Phase One kits and would borrow those instead of compromise.

Broncolor didn't make a trigger for Pentax (they may now), so many years ago I bought a Cactus trigger which can fool the Broncolor trigger, into thinking the Pentax 645Z was a Canon camera. I would stack the Broncolor trigger on top of the Cactus trigger when using HS.

If the latest HSS offerings were still low on power, then I would use hot lights instead if I couldn't source another Phase One.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/633024-REG/Arri_540207_True_Blue_D40_HMI.html

NAwlins Contrarian said:

I get that today and in the recent past, leaf-shutter lenses for interchangeable-lens cameras have mostly been limited to top professional systems. But the question that started this off was why Fuji hasn't offered any leaf-shutter lenses for the GFX system, so although that's not Phase One territory, most of the users are serious enough photographers, and big enough spenders, to make a GFX leaf shutter lens or two economically viable for Fuji--if HSS hasn't replaced most of their uses.

Click to expand...

I've also wanted all MF (medium format) manufacturers to at the very least offer 1-3 leaf lenses (especially in the portraiture lens range) where the option to use the leaf or focal shutter is available via menu options, but I don't think there's enough people wanting leaf lenses for companies like Pentax and Hasselblad to spend the development money that it requires to make a new leaf lens, that relatively few photographers would find a need for.. especially when HSS is a viable alternative for many photographers.

BillNi said:

Teila Day said:

NAwlins Contrarian said:

What is your practical experience regarding whether monolights or even shoe-mount flashes with high-speed sync (HSS) suffice in place of leaf-shutter lenses (which can sync at any shutter speed) in situations where you need to balance relatively bright ambient light with flash lighting on the main subject at large or moderate apertures?

Click to expand...

Apertures f/2.8 and larger, 1/500th shutter, and the light(s) a 10ft. away from the subject at 100 iso? HSS can effortlessly offer a nice blend of "pop" to the subject when the sun is in front of ... all the way to 90 degrees to the side of the subject. Start closing the aperture (smaller), add modifiers, filters, the sun more behind the subject in the middle of a bright day, and push the shutter speed up to 1/1600 or more and power becomes an issue fairly rapidly, especially when you start moving the lights further away from the subject.

Click to expand...

All sounds very reasonable yet misleading.

Click to expand...

Not at all misleading, just straight facts.

BillNi said:

... HSS does not run out of power at faster shutter speeds or smaller apertures it runs out of power at higher ambient levels which also caused you to reduce aperture and/or increase shutter speed.

Click to expand...

I didn't say "run out of power" there, rather that it becomes an issue which is colloquially called "running out of power".

"..power becomes an issue fairly rapidly, especially when you start moving the lights further away from the subject"

A lack of power can be an issue at both low or high shutter speeds and wide or smaller apertures.

Here:

"you may have your lights 20ft. or so away from the subjects, circular polarizer on the lens, softbox with double white fabric baffles inside, etc.. you can start running out of power pretty fast... ** Put a grid on the flash(es) being used and the HSS performance gets worse 2-3 times quicker as one might expect."

Kind of like "running out of daylight". They sun likely didn't burn out, it's just that it's no longer putting as much light in the spot where you need it. Likewise when you move your lights back, etc..

The 600ws pack that you're using is still the same 600ws pack, but practically speaking it doesn't offer the same power advantage at 20 ft. away from the subject as it did at 7 ft. away from the subject. I don't think anyone is going to be confused or mislead about that. If so, people chime in and I'll be sure to rephrase so not to confuse.

--
Teila K. Day
http://teiladay.com

Thanks for all the updates and clarifications!

Teila Day said:

I've also wanted all MF (medium format) manufacturers to at the very least offer 1-3 leaf lenses (especially in the portraiture lens range) where the option to use the leaf or focal shutter is available via menu options, but I don't think there's enough people wanting leaf lenses for companies like Pentax and Hasselblad to spend the development money that it requires to make a new leaf lens, that relatively few photographers would find a need for.. especially when HSS is a viable alternative for many photographers.

Click to expand...

As far as the portrait lens range and medium format cameras, there does not even seem to be a current medium format digital counterpart to what I regard as classics for tight head shots, the 135mm on FF / 35mm film, and the 250mm on 6x6. Maybe I don't understand the market, but that really surprises me.

Does the GFX system have a 180mm or 185mm? No, the primes go from the 120mm macro to 250mm. Does the Hasselblad X system have a 180mm or 185mm? No, the primes top out at 135mm (alone or sold with a 1.7x TC to give 230mm). Phase One offers a 240mm, which gives the equivalent of 155mm on the larger sensors in current Phase One backs. Pentax offers a 200mm, which gives the equivalent of 158mm on a 645Z. But none of these systems offers a lens between the equivalent of 107mm and the equivalent of 155mm.

Teila Day said:

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Thanks, you're exactly the sort of upper-level, frequent location shooter whose experience most interests me. You raise several points to digest, but if you'll indulge a couple more questions:

As I recall, you're a Pentax 645Z shooter. I know Pentax has offered some leaf-shutter lenses that will work with the 645Z, although I don't recall any of them being modern auto-focus lenses. You mention the Pentax 645 75mm LS being limited to 1/500 s. Is there a viable (for your uses) Pentax 645 LS lens, and if so, do you use it sometimes?

Click to expand...

1/500th is generally too slow for the situations where I'd want to use a leaf lens, so I never bothered purchasing a Pentax leaf lens. For me, at only 1/500th, HSS and HS are viable alternatives. *However, when it comes to all-around use, at slower shutter speeds above x-sync, leaf shutter lenses are my preference to use. When I want to shoot at shutter speeds high enough to negate hand shake, but slow enough to allow ambient light to affect the scene, with a leaf shutter I can easily do that without having to worry whether or not the particular flash or strobe support HSS or HS.

Teila Day said:

If not, did you decide to live with the compromises and limitations HSS imposes, instead of gaining only two or three stops versus the 645Z's x-sync?

Click to expand...

The Pentax 645Z is my daily use camera, but previously I had access to several Phase One kits and would borrow those instead of compromise.

Broncolor didn't make a trigger for Pentax (they may now), so many years ago I bought a Cactus trigger which can fool the Broncolor trigger, into thinking the Pentax 645Z was a Canon camera. I would stack the Broncolor trigger on top of the Cactus trigger when using HS.

If the latest HSS offerings were still low on power, then I would use hot lights instead if I couldn't source another Phase One.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/633024-REG/Arri_540207_True_Blue_D40_HMI.html

Teila Day said:

I get that today and in the recent past, leaf-shutter lenses for interchangeable-lens cameras have mostly been limited to top professional systems. But the question that started this off was why Fuji hasn't offered any leaf-shutter lenses for the GFX system, so although that's not Phase One territory, most of the users are serious enough photographers, and big enough spenders, to make a GFX leaf shutter lens or two economically viable for Fuji--if HSS hasn't replaced most of their uses.

Click to expand...

I've also wanted all MF (medium format) manufacturers to at the very least offer 1-3 leaf lenses (especially in the portraiture lens range) where the option to use the leaf or focal shutter is available via menu options, but I don't think there's enough people wanting leaf lenses for companies like Pentax and Hasselblad to spend the development money that it requires to make a new leaf lens, that relatively few photographers would find a need for.. especially when HSS is a viable alternative for many photographers.

Click to expand...

Yet Hasselblad added a series of leaf shutter lenses with sync speeds much faster than previous lenses for their XCD system.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Thanks for all the updates and clarifications!

NAwlins Contrarian said:

I've also wanted all MF (medium format) manufacturers to at the very least offer 1-3 leaf lenses (especially in the portraiture lens range) where the option to use the leaf or focal shutter is available via menu options, but I don't think there's enough people wanting leaf lenses for companies like Pentax and Hasselblad to spend the development money that it requires to make a new leaf lens, that relatively few photographers would find a need for.. especially when HSS is a viable alternative for many photographers.

Click to expand...

As far as the portrait lens range and medium format cameras, there does not even seem to be a current medium format digital counterpart to what I regard as classics for tight head shots, the 135mm on FF / 35mm film, and the 250mm on 6x6. Maybe I don't understand the market, but that really surprises me.

Does the GFX system have a 180mm or 185mm? No, the primes go from the 120mm macro to 250mm. Does the Hasselblad X system have a 180mm or 185mm? No, the primes top out at 135mm (alone or sold with a 1.7x TC to give 230mm). Phase One offers a 240mm, which gives the equivalent of 155mm on the larger sensors in current Phase One backs. Pentax offers a 200mm, which gives the equivalent of 158mm on a 645Z. But none of these systems offers a lens between the equivalent of 107mm and the equivalent of 155mm.

Click to expand...

Yes wish Fuji offered something native in that range. Fow now I use Sigma 135mm f1.8 which gives me poor man's 105mm f1.4 on the GFX.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Thanks for all the updates and clarifications!

NAwlins Contrarian said:

I've also wanted all MF (medium format) manufacturers to at the very least offer 1-3 leaf lenses (especially in the portraiture lens range) where the option to use the leaf or focal shutter is available via menu options, but I don't think there's enough people wanting leaf lenses for companies like Pentax and Hasselblad to spend the development money that it requires to make a new leaf lens, that relatively few photographers would find a need for.. especially when HSS is a viable alternative for many photographers.

Click to expand...

As far as the portrait lens range and medium format cameras, there does not even seem to be a current medium format digital counterpart to what I regard as classics for tight head shots, the 135mm on FF / 35mm film, and the 250mm on 6x6. Maybe I don't understand the market, but that really surprises me.

Does the GFX system have a 180mm or 185mm? No, the primes go from the 120mm macro to 250mm.

Click to expand...

Well that and the GFX system isn't a leaf shutter.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Does the Hasselblad X system have a 180mm or 185mm? No, the primes top out at 135mm (alone or sold with a 1.7x TC to give 230mm). Phase One offers a 240mm, which gives the equivalent of 155mm on the larger sensors in current Phase One backs. Pentax offers a 200mm, which gives the equivalent of 158mm on a 645Z. But none of these systems offers a lens between the equivalent of 107mm and the equivalent of 155mm.

Click to expand...

I was considering moving to MF in the last few months and had a similar issue. The lens range just isn't there for what I wanted.

Teila Day said:

BillNi said:

Teila Day said:

Apertures f/2.8 and larger, 1/500th shutter, and the light(s) a 10ft. away from the subject at 100 iso? HSS can effortlessly offer a nice blend of "pop" to the subject when the sun is in front of ... all the way to 90 degrees to the side of the subject. Start closing the aperture (smaller), add modifiers, filters, the sun more behind the subject in the middle of a bright day, and push the shutter speed up to 1/1600 or more and power becomes an issue fairly rapidly, especially when you start moving the lights further away from the subject.

Click to expand...

All sounds very reasonable yet misleading.

Click to expand...

Not at all misleading, just straight facts.

Click to expand...

So if I hike shutter speed to 1/6400th and hike ISO 2 stops because I want to freeze motion or open aperture 2 stops because I want shallow depth of field I am going to have a problem with flash power?

No I won't and your implication that I will is misleading.

Colin Creevey said:

I don't believe the results are similar at all. I'm not sure how I can correct your understanding because I cannot identify where you have gone wrong.

In my experiment, I demonstrated the power lost is equal to 1.5 stops + X stops based off shutter.

Click to expand...

I misunderstood what you did. You still did something wrong or your flash is bad.

Go look at an SB900 manual which specifies guide numbers in normal and HSS mode at 1/500th shutter.

Based on a 1/100th HSS pulse duration I predict that the output will be 1/5th or 2.32 stops down. The specification guide numbers say it is 1/4.75 or 2.24 stops down.

At 1/400th the SB900 would be 2.1 stops down. A bit better than my V860II test and about the same as my AD600Pro test.

BillNi said:

Teila Day said:

BillNi said:

Teila Day said:

Apertures f/2.8 and larger, 1/500th shutter, and the light(s) a 10ft. away from the subject at 100 iso? HSS can effortlessly offer a nice blend of "pop" to the subject when the sun is in front of ... all the way to 90 degrees to the side of the subject. Start closing the aperture (smaller), add modifiers, filters, the sun more behind the subject in the middle of a bright day, and push the shutter speed up to 1/1600 or more and power becomes an issue fairly rapidly, especially when you start moving the lights further away from the subject.

Click to expand...

All sounds very reasonable yet misleading.

Click to expand...

Not at all misleading, just straight facts.

Click to expand...

So if I hike shutter speed to 1/6400th and hike ISO 2 stops because I want to freeze motion or open aperture 2 stops because I want shallow depth of field I am going to have a problem with flash power?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what your experience is or what you are talking about but the factors Teila mentions (like modifiers, filters, sun behind the subject) all impact the flash to ambient ratio. All the factors you mention, do not. That's the difference.

BillNi said:

No I won't and your implication that I will is misleading.

Click to expand...

BillNi said:

Colin Creevey said:

I don't believe the results are similar at all. I'm not sure how I can correct your understanding because I cannot identify where you have gone wrong.

In my experiment, I demonstrated the power lost is equal to 1.5 stops + X stops based off shutter.

Click to expand...

I misunderstood what you did. You still did something wrong or your flash is bad.

Click to expand...

My flash is in line with what other people who also did tests got. So either we are all wrong or we all have bad units. While both are possible, without someone demonstrating why we are wrong, it's unlikely. And your "trust me bro" isn't enough to over rule what evidence suggests.

BillNi said:

Go look at an SB900 manual which specifies guide numbers in normal and HSS mode at 1/500th shutter.

Click to expand...

Now this IS something we can look at. Below is a screen cap of the SB900 manual you refer to. As we are using a Nikon flash, let's assume we are using a Nikon body like the D850 which has a sync speed of 1/250.

Using a shutter of 1/250 we can sync with the flash without using HSS. This should give us a guide number from the top table. It doesn't matter what number we choose, as long as we keep it the same for the comparison. For sake argument, let's choose the reading for zoom at 35mm and 85mm. These are 111.5 and 154.2 GN respectively.

Now let's assume we double our shutter (1 stop) to 1/500. We will now have to engage HSS to get even flash coverage. The table also stipulates the GN for HSS are at 1/500 which is useful. The GN for 35mm and 85mm are 51.2 and 70.9 respectively.

Well how can we convert GN to f-stops. We know that Guide Number = [Flash to Subject Distance] x [F-Stop]. If we refactor this we see that [F-Stop] = [Guide Number] / [Flash to Subject Distance]

Once again, it doesn't matter what the flash to subject distance is as long as we hold all the number true to all tests. For argument sake let's choose the flash to subject distance of 8.

This results in the following.

111.5 / 8 =13.94 (2 d.p.)
154.2 / 8 =19.28 (2 d.p.)

51.2 / 8 = 6.78 (2 d.p.)
70.9 / 8 = 8.86 (2 d.p.)

Now that we have the output in f-stops, lets compare. 13.94 to 6.78 is close to two and one third stops and 19.28 to 8.86 is also about two and one third stops. Note that we should only see a loss of one stop from increasing our shutter. However, we do not.

Therefore, using the evidence you provided (not me) your flash is loosing about 1 1/3 stops from entering HSS. This is very close to what my Godox experiment revealed which was 1 1/2.

BillNi said:

Based on a 1/100th HSS pulse duration I predict that the output will be 1/5th or 2.32 stops down. The specification guide numbers say it is 1/4.75 or 2.24 stops down.

At 1/400th the SB900 would be 2.1 stops down. A bit better than my V860II test and about the same as my AD600Pro test.

Click to expand...

Colin Creevey said:

BillNi said:

Teila Day said:

BillNi said:

Teila Day said:

Apertures f/2.8 and larger, 1/500th shutter, and the light(s) a 10ft. away from the subject at 100 iso? HSS can effortlessly offer a nice blend of "pop" to the subject when the sun is in front of ... all the way to 90 degrees to the side of the subject. Start closing the aperture (smaller), add modifiers, filters, the sun more behind the subject in the middle of a bright day, and push the shutter speed up to 1/1600 or more and power becomes an issue fairly rapidly, especially when you start moving the lights further away from the subject.

Click to expand...

All sounds very reasonable yet misleading.

Click to expand...

Not at all misleading, just straight facts.

Click to expand...

So if I hike shutter speed to 1/6400th and hike ISO 2 stops because I want to freeze motion or open aperture 2 stops because I want shallow depth of field I am going to have a problem with flash power?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what your experience is or what you are talking about but the factors Teila mentions (like modifiers, filters, sun behind the subject) all impact the flash to ambient ratio. All the factors you mention, do not. That's the difference.

Click to expand...

Which is why I described his words

"Start closing the aperture (smaller)" and "push the shutter speed up to 1/1600 or more and power becomes an issue fairly rapidly"

as misleading.

BillNi said:

Which is why I described his her words

Click to expand...

FTFY

BillNi said:

Colin Creevey said:

BillNi said:

Teila Day said:

BillNi said:

Teila Day said:

Apertures f/2.8 and larger, 1/500th shutter, and the light(s) a 10ft. away from the subject at 100 iso? HSS can effortlessly offer a nice blend of "pop" to the subject when the sun is in front of ... all the way to 90 degrees to the side of the subject. Start closing the aperture (smaller), add modifiers, filters, the sun more behind the subject in the middle of a bright day, and push the shutter speed up to 1/1600 or more and power becomes an issue fairly rapidly, especially when you start moving the lights further away from the subject.

Click to expand...

All sounds very reasonable yet misleading.

Click to expand...

Not at all misleading, just straight facts.

Click to expand...

So if I hike shutter speed to 1/6400th and hike ISO 2 stops because I want to freeze motion or open aperture 2 stops because I want shallow depth of field I am going to have a problem with flash power?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what your experience is or what you are talking about but the factors Teila mentions (like modifiers, filters, sun behind the subject) all impact the flash to ambient ratio. All the factors you mention, do not. That's the difference.

Click to expand...

Which is why I described his words

"Start closing the aperture (smaller)" and "push the shutter speed up to 1/1600 or more and power becomes an issue fairly rapidly"

as misleading.

Click to expand...

BillNi • New Member • Posts: 17 I guess you are our latest troll. Welcome.

Also I believe Teila is a female. Teila is a common female name and self describes themselves as "A saucy grandmother" so unlikely to use the pronouns he and his.

Colin Creevey said:

BillNi said:

Colin Creevey said:

BillNi said:

Teila Day said:

BillNi said:

Teila Day said:

Apertures f/2.8 and larger, 1/500th shutter, and the light(s) a 10ft. away from the subject at 100 iso? HSS can effortlessly offer a nice blend of "pop" to the subject when the sun is in front of ... all the way to 90 degrees to the side of the subject. Start closing the aperture (smaller), add modifiers, filters, the sun more behind the subject in the middle of a bright day, and push the shutter speed up to 1/1600 or more and power becomes an issue fairly rapidly, especially when you start moving the lights further away from the subject.

Click to expand...

All sounds very reasonable yet misleading.

Click to expand...

Not at all misleading, just straight facts.

Click to expand...

So if I hike shutter speed to 1/6400th and hike ISO 2 stops because I want to freeze motion or open aperture 2 stops because I want shallow depth of field I am going to have a problem with flash power?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what your experience is or what you are talking about but the factors Teila mentions (like modifiers, filters, sun behind the subject) all impact the flash to ambient ratio. All the factors you mention, do not. That's the difference.

Click to expand...

Which is why I described his words

"Start closing the aperture (smaller)" and "push the shutter speed up to 1/1600 or more and power becomes an issue fairly rapidly"

as misleading.

Click to expand...

BillNi • New Member • Posts: 17 I guess you are our latest troll. Welcome.

Also I believe Teila is a female. Teila is a common female name and self describes themselves as "A saucy grandmother" so unlikely to use the pronouns he and his.

Click to expand...

I boldened his to emphasize it was not my words implying camera exposure settings affect ambient/HSS flash balance especially after you felt you needed to explain that to me.

I had no idea Teila was even a forename never mind what sex it is usually given to and don't care. Because you seem to think it is important I checked and according to babycenter in the US for the last few decades it has been given to around 1 in 200,000 babies. Not surprised I never heard of it.

Did you find an SB 900 manual? You seem to have given up arguing about HSS power loss.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Thanks for all the updates and clarifications!

NAwlins Contrarian said:

I've also wanted all MF (medium format) manufacturers to at the very least offer 1-3 leaf lenses (especially in the portraiture lens range) where the option to use the leaf or focal shutter is available via menu options, but I don't think there's enough people wanting leaf lenses for companies like Pentax and Hasselblad to spend the development money that it requires to make a new leaf lens, that relatively few photographers would find a need for.. especially when HSS is a viable alternative for many photographers.

Click to expand...

As far as the portrait lens range and medium format cameras, there does not even seem to be a current medium format digital counterpart to what I regard as classics for tight head shots, the 135mm on FF / 35mm film, and the 250mm on 6x6. Maybe I don't understand the market, but that really surprises me.

Click to expand...

That's something that has raised my eyebrow before as well as I wish there were generally longer focal lengths (I realize that I'm the exception to the rule). Oddly enough Pentax offers a lens array that fits me pretty well, though I think they can do better by revamping their older lenses with new coatings and wider apertures.

Pentax offers 90, 120, 150, 200, 300, 400 and 600mm, 645 lenses. That's not too shabby. The 90mm f/2.8 macro stabilized lens, is one of the newer lenses and is a competent lens - I skipped it and opted for the older 120mm f/4 macro instead, which is the first lens I'll grab for portraiture.. if not the 300mm. Overall I definitely prefer longer focal lengths for portraiture. When shooting "partial" body shots I'll even grab the 400mm which is akin to using a 300mm lens on a FF Canon/Nikon, and about 250mm on a 645 film camera which works fine, though longer and faster lenses would be even more preferred (by me) for location portraiture. I'd love to ditch the long-in-the-tooth 400 f/5.6 for a modern 400 f/2.8. ... a 300 f/2 would also be more than just tempting.

Note: on Canon/Nikon my preference for portraiture.. 100mm Ziess f/2 makro, 200 f/2, 300 f/2.8 (same practically the same quality as the 300 f/4 stopped down to my eyes), and the 400 f/2.8.... with the 70-200 f/2.8 being an exceptional all-rounder.

The Hasselblad H series had portraiture covered pretty well.. with the 120 and 300mm lenses. Likewise the new X series with 120 and the 135 (f/2.8)mm lenses... (I'd want for even longer focal lengths - a 300 f2 or 2.8 would fit me fine irrespective of the weight if i shot the X series... f/2 please!

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Does the GFX system have a 180mm or 185mm? No, the primes go from the 120mm macro to 250mm.

Click to expand...

120mm is pretty standard across the MF sphere for macro and portrait work, which gives roughly the same result as shooting 100mm lens on FF. Not an issue for me, especially if 250, 300mm, or longer is offered... but I do wish longer focal lengths were offered. At least Pentax has some longer focal lengths from their old pipeline.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Does the Hasselblad X system have a 180mm or 185mm? No, the primes top out at 135mm (alone or sold with a 1.7x TC to give 230mm). Phase One offers a 240mm, which gives the equivalent of 155mm on the larger sensors in current Phase One backs.

Click to expand...

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Pentax offers a 200mm, which gives the equivalent of 158mm on a 645Z. But none of these systems offers a lens between the equivalent of 107mm and the equivalent of 155mm.

Click to expand...

It seems as if either aesthetically or from a practical standpoint, you're really wanting/needing a particular focal length range. Would 250 or 300mm possibly work for you? I find that range quite delightful on 645 (film or digital). What do you shoot most at the longer focal lengths?

BillNi said:

Teila Day said:

BillNi said:

Teila Day said:

Apertures f/2.8 and larger, 1/500th shutter, and the light(s) a 10ft. away from the subject at 100 iso? HSS can effortlessly offer a nice blend of "pop" to the subject when the sun is in front of ... all the way to 90 degrees to the side of the subject. Start closing the aperture (smaller), add modifiers, filters, the sun more behind the subject in the middle of a bright day, and push the shutter speed up to 1/1600 or more and power becomes an issue fairly rapidly, especially when you start moving the lights further away from the subject.

Click to expand...

All sounds very reasonable yet misleading.

Click to expand...

Not at all misleading, just straight facts.

Click to expand...

So if I hike shutter speed to 1/6400th and hike ISO 2 stops because I want to freeze motion or open aperture 2 stops because I want shallow depth of field I am going to have a problem with flash power?

No I won't and your implication that I will is misleading.

Click to expand...

I can have that conversation, but I'd like to have some useful information first.

What's the distance between your lights and the subject?

What modifier(s) are you using and are you using grids? (grids sap light from hitting the subject and light from a softbox isn't going to meter the same as light from a PARA in focus position.)

What's the depth-of-field requirement? (e.g. are you shooting a family of 12 with a 90mm lens or longer requiring stopping down to get a useable depth-of-field? or are you shooting relatively wide with your lights pulled back so not to be in the frame?)

What's your aperture? (if you're using a Phase One IQ3, 80mp, CCD back, you may not want to hike the iso up 2 stops if you're already at iso 200, or even iso 100... let alone if you'r using a Phase One P45). "hiking" your aperture 2 stops from iso 35 is different from hiking it 2 stops from iso 800. What if you're using a 250mm lens on a phase one IQ4 back, will you really need or even want to shoot wide open to achieve a shallow DOF.. It's roughly 7ft. at 40ft... and 2.5ft. at 25ft. What's your apertures and DOF requirement?

How powerful is your strobe/what strobe(s) are you using? (e.g. speedlight, 1200ws studio strobes, etc..?)

What are your power pack specifics? (are you using 3 strobes connected to one pack? Does your pack support HSS though only one outlet or all outlets simultaneously? Specifically, what pack or strobe(s) are you using?)

What's your typical use case when using HSS?

For many photographers:

(a) 1/6400th isn't reality since their camera doesn't allow that fast shutter speed (b) because their lens doesn't allow a shutter speed past say, 1/1600 (c) For others 1/6400 isn't reality since HSS is deemed practically useless at the apertures, ISO or light placement that they want to use.

Will you post examples of you say, using a single light with a course grid (also sample with you using a double baffle large softbox), at 1/6400th shutter, f/10 or smaller, base iso, using a telephoto lens, and the light 10ft. and also 20ft. away from the subject?

(below) Please scroll down to their last 3 photographs; the model in the red dress. These are examples of common real-world lighting distances for models/subjects in scenic environments. How far would you say the light is from the subject? If you wanted to grid your lights/modifier to prevent light spilling all over the hill, about how much light would you lose? .. assuming you have your lights and model where you want them, would you compensate by raising the iso if you're shooting a medium format CCD back? .. or would you turn up the power to your strobes if you could? I'm asking what would you do.

http://www.thebroketographers.com/blog/2017/9/7/modifiers-broncolor-para-133-review

.. and here

https://broncolor.swiss/news/how-to-illuminate-your-subject-from-far-away-1

In these examples, how well do you think 1/6400th would work, using HSS while shooting a H-series Hasselblad? What about the Camera of your choice?

Obviously it's not going to work very well (or at all) shooting many, if not most medium format cameras, which is the format of choice for a lot of photographers shooting for pay, in such vistas.

More examples from the web (Karl Taylor / Broncolor) - real world shooting distances for many photographers.




This kind of situation begs for modern day fresnel lens and generator(s) in my view - or HMI lighting in the PARA modifier, etc... Does HSS work well in this case at high shutter speeds and smaller apertures? Any one have examples where HSS + highest sync speed + f/10 or smaller works at base ISO (large CCD sensors) and near base ISO or near base ISO for MF or 'full-frame' CMOS ?


This is typical shooting on the jetties, where many times the water between two rocky outcroppings prohibit placing lights closer to the subject (not so in this case), but the light placement is typical.

Is there anyone out there having peachy results while stopped down and lights placed 15 - 20 ft. from the subject, at or near base iso while using HSS and telephoto lens? Maybe HSS has gotten a lot better and if that's the case, wonderful. I'm hoping the new Broncolor pack's HSS feature can make use of multiple batteries to somehow make the HSS feature nearly as powerful as the regular flash (within 1/3 stop) - it wasn't mentioned much in the Broncolor Satos debut webinar, so I'm thinking it's still a "use it if you're out of choices" kind of feature.

I hope I'm wrong, but if I had to guess...

--
Teila K. Day
http://teiladay.com

My experience is using Elinchrom Ranger RX AS Speed1100 ws battery packs & standard head units that working using HS - HiSync Meaning the flash tube burns long enough to cover the shutter action to achieve proper exposure.

In combination with the new Elinchrom triggers, I can achieve shutter speeds up to 1/8000 sec of properly exposed images.

These units are old yet still around. I exchange the lead acid batteries with lithium batteries and get substantially more pops per charge and the pack is lighter to schlep around.

I like them so much, I have two of these old units. So, no power is lost from the strobe itself as it fires normally. The longer burn takes care of exposure. Only the (S)tandard heads do this. The (A)ction heads do not work as HS. The trigger can adjust the actual point of firing. I’ve discovered using HS on Nikon cameras (FX &DX) the trigger works perfectly right out of he box with no timing adjustments.

there are smaller, more compact solutions using HSS but I’m fine with HS and 1100ws.

1/2000 app f2.8?



1/5000. Appx f5.6? Ambient 6pm evening in shade completely overpowered



--
I am the copyright owner of my work. Please don’t take or alter my images.

BillNi said:

Colin Creevey said:

BillNi said:

Colin Creevey said:

BillNi said:

Teila Day said:

BillNi said:

Teila Day said:

Apertures f/2.8 and larger, 1/500th shutter, and the light(s) a 10ft. away from the subject at 100 iso? HSS can effortlessly offer a nice blend of "pop" to the subject when the sun is in front of ... all the way to 90 degrees to the side of the subject. Start closing the aperture (smaller), add modifiers, filters, the sun more behind the subject in the middle of a bright day, and push the shutter speed up to 1/1600 or more and power becomes an issue fairly rapidly, especially when you start moving the lights further away from the subject.

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All sounds very reasonable yet misleading.

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Not at all misleading, just straight facts.

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So if I hike shutter speed to 1/6400th and hike ISO 2 stops because I want to freeze motion or open aperture 2 stops because I want shallow depth of field I am going to have a problem with flash power?

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I'm not sure what your experience is or what you are talking about but the factors Teila mentions (like modifiers, filters, sun behind the subject) all impact the flash to ambient ratio. All the factors you mention, do not. That's the difference.

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Which is why I described his words

"Start closing the aperture (smaller)" and "push the shutter speed up to 1/1600 or more and power becomes an issue fairly rapidly"

as misleading.

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BillNi • New Member • Posts: 17 I guess you are our latest troll. Welcome.

Also I believe Teila is a female. Teila is a common female name and self describes themselves as "A saucy grandmother" so unlikely to use the pronouns he and his.

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I boldened his to emphasize it was not my words implying camera exposure settings affect ambient/HSS flash balance especially after you felt you needed to explain that to me.

I had no idea Teila was even a forename never mind what sex it is usually given to and don't care. Because you seem to think it is important I checked and according to babycenter in the US for the last few decades it has been given to around 1 in 200,000 babies. Not surprised I never heard of it.

Did you find an SB 900 manual? You seem to have given up arguing about HSS power loss.

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Did I ever find the SB900 manual? You mean the manual you claimed backed your statement up which in fact did not? The one you failed to link? The one that literally is in line with everything I said?

BillNi said:

RL Photography said:

You are confusing High Speed Sync with HyperSync, which Elinchrom refers to as Hi-Sync. They are different things.

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Other than name and mechanism used to increase the flash pulse duration in what way are they different?

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Practically speaking with HS and the Broncolor MOVE pack you're restricted to power level 6 (or higher) out of 10.

Q: Are you power restricted with your particular HSS option(s)? (e.g. does the monolight or pack restrict how much power is available during HSS, or is 100% available when you're in HSS mode all the time?)

There can be a higher incidence of gradient results with HS compared to HSS no matter how negligible depending on camera being used, etc..

Q: Have you noticed any notable gradations worth mentioning when you've used HSS?

Q: Can you use HSS when you're set at say, around 40 watt seconds or less?

Using HS I'm restricted to a floor of about 75ws. If HSS can be used say, with a snoot and manage a useable 1/6400th shutter speed, then that can be a boon for macro work if a bit of ambient is wanted and or when using strobes with flash durations slower than what one can get with a useable shutter speed in conjunction with HSS.

Q: When using HSS and HS, have you noticed one consistently putting more light on the subject than the other?

At the same distance, camera settings, etc., at full power I realized a brighter result with HS over HSS.


Does that youtuber's experience linked above square with your experience using HSS?

bobby350z said:

Teila Day said:

I've also wanted all MF (medium format) manufacturers to at the very least offer 1-3 leaf lenses (especially in the portraiture lens range) where the option to use the leaf or focal shutter is available via menu options, but I don't think there's enough people wanting leaf lenses for companies like Pentax and Hasselblad to spend the development money that it requires to make a new leaf lens, that relatively few photographers would find a need for.. especially when HSS is a viable alternative for many photographers.

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Yet Hasselblad added a series of leaf shutter lenses with sync speeds much faster than previous lenses for their XCD system.

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Yes, Hasselblad has upgraded several times from 1/800th to 1/2000 if I recall, and now 1/4000 with the new X series.

I meant to say Pentax and Fuji (not Hasselblad that had an entire leaf line up).

Thanks for waking me up!