Dual-Gain Sensors for Dummies

paulraphael

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Here's a sensor 101 question:

Is it true that dual-gain sensor will have more dynamic range, but also more shadow noise, in its higher gain mode?

And if so, how does this work? My understanding of dynamic range is that it's limited by noise. In the highlights, the limit is typically the point of digital clipping. In the shadows the limit is your minimally acceptable SNR. Which suggests that shadow noise is the variable that limits dynamic range.

Which suggests I'm missing something.
 
You are welcome here Ephemeris, just dial down the haughtiness.

Jack
Yes, this.

To be clear, re-reading my post I can see I wrote it ambiguously when I said “doing anything useful here”. I realize now that could easily be interpreted as “here” meaning the forum and someone not being welcome in the forum. Not my intent at all. By “here” I just meant this particular exchange/thread isn’t useful. Let it go…
I don't understand sorry Ken. I thought you were having a go at me.

'Your response? To whine about it. Reflect a little on whether you are doing anything useful here'
I just meant the tone of your particular follow up posts here, that’s all. Not you or your entering posting history. Everyone should be welcome here. We don’t always get communications right on the internet. My own post is an apparent example of that!
No worries Ken. The reason the post came to this group is because the OP thought that my comment about light doesn't contain noise couldn't possibly be correct. After a bit of discussion he felt he would bring it here.
As dicey as a business as it seems to try to decode frenetic "streams of ASCII", I can recall no instance of said poster asserting that "light doesn't contain noise". If anything, it might seems to be some opposing position (whatever such views may imagine), appearing to be more widely ascribed to (here). Hard to make out any discern-able and durable position(s).
That's why this post was created. Because that's roughly what I stated in another DPR group. It was brought here as means of 'they will show you' mentality. So I said what I said above because that's what happened.
Also unclear how an inquiry such as the OP initiating this thread has anything whatsoever to do with the referred-to former debate (about origins of numerical uncertainties). The inquiry accepts what are [IMO, photon-electron(s) transduction measurement limitations type] noises sources as they practically exist - regardless of causal origin - in attempted parameter optimizations adjusting in-camera parameters in efforts to improve system input-referred DR performance over (somewhat wider) ranges of ISO indication setting values. No relation.
Why? Well much more intelligent people, far and above myself and those of my colleagues (we haven't tested this as yet).

So suppose I was to get a proper talking to and accept what I was told.

I am sure a motto is hidden here somewhere, but perhaps it isnt noisy enough in this noise free new world 🤝
Ah, I was unaware of the backstory. Apologies if I made it seem that I was piling on!
 
You are welcome here Ephemeris, just dial down the haughtiness.

Jack
Yes, this.

To be clear, re-reading my post I can see I wrote it ambiguously when I said “doing anything useful here”. I realize now that could easily be interpreted as “here” meaning the forum and someone not being welcome in the forum. Not my intent at all. By “here” I just meant this particular exchange/thread isn’t useful. Let it go…
I don't understand sorry Ken. I thought you were having a go at me.

'Your response? To whine about it. Reflect a little on whether you are doing anything useful here'
I just meant the tone of your particular follow up posts here, that’s all. Not you or your entering posting history. Everyone should be welcome here. We don’t always get communications right on the internet. My own post is an apparent example of that!
No worries Ken. The reason the post came to this group is because the OP thought that my comment about light doesn't contain noise couldn't possibly be correct. After a bit of discussion he felt he would bring it here.
As dicey as a business as it seems to try to decode frenetic "streams of ASCII", I can recall no instance of said poster asserting that "light doesn't contain noise". If anything, it might seems to be some opposing position (whatever such views may imagine), appearing to be more widely ascribed to (here). Hard to make out any discern-able and durable position(s).
That's why this post was created. Because that's roughly what I stated in another DPR group. It was brought here as means of 'they will show you' mentality. So I said what I said above because that's what happened.
Could you provide DPR-site URL thread-links showing your above referenced statement(s) ?

Such a thrill that a wandering pilgrim and seeker may all along have been "in the tank" for my seeming (nearly) lone curmudgeon-like staunchy stanch against concluding for "implicit" origins. You could have fooled me ! There seem to exist profound communication barriers.
Also unclear how an inquiry such as the OP initiating this thread has anything whatsoever to do with the referred-to former debate (about origins of numerical uncertainties). The inquiry accepts what are [IMO, photon-electron(s) transduction measurement limitations type] noises sources as they practically exist - regardless of causal origin - in attempted parameter optimizations adjusting in-camera parameters in efforts to improve system input-referred DR performance over (somewhat wider) ranges of ISO indication setting values. No relation.
Why? Well much more intelligent people, far and above myself and those of my colleagues (we haven't tested this as yet).

So suppose I was to get a proper talking to and accept what I was told.

I am sure a motto is hidden here somewhere, but perhaps it isnt noisy enough in this noise free new world 🤝
Ah, I was unaware of the backstory. Apologies if I made it seem that I was piling on!
 
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You are welcome here Ephemeris, just dial down the haughtiness.

Jack
Yes, this.

To be clear, re-reading my post I can see I wrote it ambiguously when I said “doing anything useful here”. I realize now that could easily be interpreted as “here” meaning the forum and someone not being welcome in the forum. Not my intent at all. By “here” I just meant this particular exchange/thread isn’t useful. Let it go…
I don't understand sorry Ken. I thought you were having a go at me.

'Your response? To whine about it. Reflect a little on whether you are doing anything useful here'
I just meant the tone of your particular follow up posts here, that’s all. Not you or your entering posting history. Everyone should be welcome here. We don’t always get communications right on the internet. My own post is an apparent example of that!
No worries Ken. The reason the post came to this group is because the OP thought that my comment about light doesn't contain noise couldn't possibly be correct. After a bit of discussion he felt he would bring it here.
As dicey as a business as it seems to try to decode frenetic "streams of ASCII", I can recall no instance of said poster asserting that "light doesn't contain noise". If anything, it might seems to be some opposing position (whatever such views may imagine), appearing to be more widely ascribed to (here). Hard to make out any discern-able and durable position(s).
That's why this post was created. Because that's roughly what I stated in another DPR group. It was brought here as means of 'they will show you' mentality. So I said what I said above because that's what happened.
Could you provide DPR-site URL thread-links showing your above referenced statement(s) ?
Why would I spend my time to do so? To what end?

The OP would be in a good position to do so.

I get the feeling for some reason you don't believe me. Is this true?
Such a thrill that a wandering pilgrim and seeker may all along have been "in the tank" for my seeming (nearly) lone curmudgeon-like staunchy stanch against concluding for "implicit" origins. You could have fooled me ! There seem to exist profound communication barriers.
Would it be possible to reword a little and I genuinely don't understand what you are saying (wandering pilgrim and seeker may all along have been "in the tank).

i and others have commented the same.

It's the style that I don't understand and that is perhaps because its not what I am used to.

What is it I have fooled you over?
Also unclear how an inquiry such as the OP initiating this thread has anything whatsoever to do with the referred-to former debate (about origins of numerical uncertainties). The inquiry accepts what are [IMO, photon-electron(s) transduction measurement limitations type] noises sources as they practically exist - regardless of causal origin - in attempted parameter optimizations adjusting in-camera parameters in efforts to improve system input-referred DR performance over (somewhat wider) ranges of ISO indication setting values. No relation.
Why? Well much more intelligent people, far and above myself and those of my colleagues (we haven't tested this as yet).

So suppose I was to get a proper talking to and accept what I was told.

I am sure a motto is hidden here somewhere, but perhaps it isnt noisy enough in this noise free new world 🤝
Ah, I was unaware of the backstory. Apologies if I made it seem that I was piling on!
 
Did Aptina get bought up by ONSemi?
Here is a longer answer to your question.
In the US, this statement above can be called a "trigger warning" since it can cause unpredictable reactions, sometime violent.
....because Micron was mostly a memory-chip maker, Micron spun out Aptina as a standalone company focused on image sensors. The core team included many folks from JPL and Photobit. Aptina started to lose ground to Samsung and Sony and Omnivision in the cell phone space. Eventually Aptina was acquired by ON Semi, ....
With the greatest respect Eric I don't quite follow.

The only question I can see is Did Aptina get bought up by ONSemi? And I don't think you answered that.
Thanks to everyone who guided Ephemeris to my answer while I was mowing my farm. I don't see how it was not clear as day but that happens sometimes. Most people don't know the longer story that I wrote out, as briefly as I could, and 99,9% of image sensor technologists don't know the origins of DCG, much less the surrounding dirty laundry (which I only alluded to.)
I have tried to explain why it was, as is not clear Eric.

If perhaps you had brought the key bit out into the open I would have seen it, or specifically highlighted it.

Let's say, your answer to my question was lost in the noise of your post.

Not your fault, but that's why it wasn't clear. A little like people only read the headlines. Happy to explain if it's helpful.

I do happen to know much of the historical story just not how Aptima fitted into the more modern picture so thanks for the information.
 
You are welcome here Ephemeris, just dial down the haughtiness.

Jack
Yes, this.

To be clear, re-reading my post I can see I wrote it ambiguously when I said “doing anything useful here”. I realize now that could easily be interpreted as “here” meaning the forum and someone not being welcome in the forum. Not my intent at all. By “here” I just meant this particular exchange/thread isn’t useful. Let it go…
I don't understand sorry Ken. I thought you were having a go at me.

'Your response? To whine about it. Reflect a little on whether you are doing anything useful here'
I just meant the tone of your particular follow up posts here, that’s all. Not you or your entering posting history. Everyone should be welcome here. We don’t always get communications right on the internet. My own post is an apparent example of that!
No worries Ken. The reason the post came to this group is because the OP thought that my comment about light doesn't contain noise couldn't possibly be correct. After a bit of discussion he felt he would bring it here.
As dicey as a business as it seems to try to decode frenetic "streams of ASCII", I can recall no instance of said poster asserting that "light doesn't contain noise". If anything, it might seems to be some opposing position (whatever such views may imagine), appearing to be more widely ascribed to (here). Hard to make out any discern-able and durable position(s).
That's why this post was created. Because that's roughly what I stated in another DPR group. It was brought here as means of 'they will show you' mentality. So I said what I said above because that's what happened.
Could you provide DPR-site URL thread-links showing your above referenced statement(s) ?
Why would I spend my time to do so? To what end?
To substantiate your statements, as well as to perhaps better understand your position.
The OP would be in a good position to do so.
No, the OP has nothing whatsoever to do with your own statement (here quoted above): ... that's roughly what I stated in another DPR group. It was brought here as means of 'they will show you' mentality. So I said what I said above because that's what happened.
I get the feeling for some reason you don't believe me. Is this true?
Part of the possibility of comprehending/understanding others includes clarifications. If one is not willing or able to iterative-ly clarify, then a coherent conversation is not likely possible.
Such a thrill that a wandering pilgrim and seeker may all along have been "in the tank" for my seeming (nearly) lone curmudgeon-like staunchy stanch against concluding for "implicit" origins. You could have fooled me ! There seem to exist profound communication barriers.
Would it be possible to reword a little and I genuinely don't understand what you are saying (wandering pilgrim and seeker may all along have been "in the tank).
Pilgrim/seeker = "investigator". In the tank = "joined at rhetorical hip"; thinking in "unison".
i and others have commented the same.
Incoherent statement to me. These are wasted words every time, in every (rational) venue.
It's the style that I don't understand and that is perhaps because its not what I am used to.
Perhaps not.
What is it I have fooled you over?
In order to be "fooled", one might first presumably understand (at least some portions). Said evident profound communication barriers have "swamped" my capacity to continue further.
Also unclear how an inquiry such as the OP initiating this thread has anything whatsoever to do with the referred-to former debate (about origins of numerical uncertainties). The inquiry accepts what are [IMO, photon-electron(s) transduction measurement limitations type] noises sources as they practically exist - regardless of causal origin - in attempted parameter optimizations adjusting in-camera parameters in efforts to improve system input-referred DR performance over (somewhat wider) ranges of ISO indication setting values. No relation.
Why? Well much more intelligent people, far and above myself and those of my colleagues (we haven't tested this as yet).

So suppose I was to get a proper talking to and accept what I was told.

I am sure a motto is hidden here somewhere, but perhaps it isnt noisy enough in this noise free new world 🤝
Ah, I was unaware of the backstory. Apologies if I made it seem that I was piling on!
 
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You are welcome here Ephemeris, just dial down the haughtiness.

Jack
Yes, this.

To be clear, re-reading my post I can see I wrote it ambiguously when I said “doing anything useful here”. I realize now that could easily be interpreted as “here” meaning the forum and someone not being welcome in the forum. Not my intent at all. By “here” I just meant this particular exchange/thread isn’t useful. Let it go…
I don't understand sorry Ken. I thought you were having a go at me.

'Your response? To whine about it. Reflect a little on whether you are doing anything useful here'
I just meant the tone of your particular follow up posts here, that’s all. Not you or your entering posting history. Everyone should be welcome here. We don’t always get communications right on the internet. My own post is an apparent example of that!
No worries Ken. The reason the post came to this group is because the OP thought that my comment about light doesn't contain noise couldn't possibly be correct. After a bit of discussion he felt he would bring it here.
As dicey as a business as it seems to try to decode frenetic "streams of ASCII", I can recall no instance of said poster asserting that "light doesn't contain noise". If anything, it might seems to be some opposing position (whatever such views may imagine), appearing to be more widely ascribed to (here). Hard to make out any discern-able and durable position(s).
That's why this post was created. Because that's roughly what I stated in another DPR group. It was brought here as means of 'they will show you' mentality. So I said what I said above because that's what happened.
Could you provide DPR-site URL thread-links showing your above referenced statement(s) ?
Why would I spend my time to do so? To what end?
To substantiate your statements, as well as to perhaps better understand your position.
Ok. Well I don't need to substantiate it to you, and I can assure you it's true.

Happy to discuss my position. It's not so complex however.
The OP does. He is the reason my conversation was brough to this group. I have the info you dont, so please don't try to make otherwise.
I get the feeling for some reason you don't believe me. Is this true?
Part of the possibility of comprehending/understanding others includes clarifications. If one is not willing or able to iterative-ly clarify, then a coherent conversation is not likely possible.
I don't know what you mean. Please could you rephrase.
Such a thrill that a wandering pilgrim and seeker may all along have been "in the tank" for my seeming (nearly) lone curmudgeon-like staunchy stanch against concluding for "implicit" origins. You could have fooled me ! There seem to exist profound communication barriers.
Would it be possible to reword a little and I genuinely don't understand what you are saying (wandering pilgrim and seeker may all along have been "in the tank).
Pilgrim/seeker = "investigator". In the tank = "joined at rhetorical hip"; thinking in "unison".
Sorry still don't understand. I don't even see how tank is joined at the hip.
i and others have commented the same.
Incoherent statement to me. These are wasted words every time, in every (rational) venue.
Sorry I don't understand your second sentence.

I and others have commented that we don't understand your style of writing. To add it was recent.
It's the style that I don't understand and that is perhaps because its not what I am used to.
Perhaps not.
I don't understand what your point is
What is it I have fooled you over?
In order to be "fooled", one might first presumably understand (at least some portions). Said evident profound communication barriers have "swamped" my capacity to continue further.
I'm sorry again, I really don't understand. Could you have a go at writing in a more simple style?
Also unclear how an inquiry such as the OP initiating this thread has anything whatsoever to do with the referred-to former debate (about origins of numerical uncertainties). The inquiry accepts what are [IMO, photon-electron(s) transduction measurement limitations type] noises sources as they practically exist - regardless of causal origin - in attempted parameter optimizations adjusting in-camera parameters in efforts to improve system input-referred DR performance over (somewhat wider) ranges of ISO indication setting values. No relation.
Why? Well much more intelligent people, far and above myself and those of my colleagues (we haven't tested this as yet).

So suppose I was to get a proper talking to and accept what I was told.

I am sure a motto is hidden here somewhere, but perhaps it isnt noisy enough in this noise free new world 🤝
Ah, I was unaware of the backstory. Apologies if I made it seem that I was piling on!
 
Eric Fossum wrote:
... 99,9% of image sensor technologists don't know the origins of DCG, ...
Which is why I made the effort to preserve the original White Paper (with permission) at PhotonsToPhotos.

--
Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at PhotonsToPhotos )
Where abouts would I find this in your website Bill?
 
That's why this post was created. Because that's roughly what I stated in another DPR group. It was brought here as means of 'they will show you' mentality. So I said what I said above because that's what happened.
Could you provide DPR-site URL thread-links showing your above referenced statement(s) ?
Why would I spend my time to do so? To what end?
To substantiate your statements, as well as to perhaps better understand your position.
Ok. Well I don't need to substantiate it to you, and I can assure you it's true.
Deal breaker. Over and out. No more (directly sent) responses to these stochastic flailings.
 
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That's why this post was created. Because that's roughly what I stated in another DPR group. It was brought here as means of 'they will show you' mentality. So I said what I said above because that's what happened.
Could you provide DPR-site URL thread-links showing your above referenced statement(s) ?
Why would I spend my time to do so? To what end?
To substantiate your statements, as well as to perhaps better understand your position.
Ok. Well I don't need to substantiate it to you, and I can assure you it's true.
Deal breaker. Over and out. No more (directly sent) responses to these stochastic flailings.
I don't understand you again Detail Man. Sorry.
 
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Eric Fossum wrote:
... 99,9% of image sensor technologists don't know the origins of DCG, ...
Which is why I made the effort to preserve the original White Paper (with permission) at PhotonsToPhotos.
Where abouts would I find this in your website Bill?
Linked to earlier in this thread.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67199429
Thanks Jim. It was more where it is linked to within Bill's site.

I did download it from the link you gave and read the document which is interesting. I hadn't spotted it previously on Bill's site and wondered what else I may possibly be missing.
348abf3fe5e140e58f252ec43ab1234a.jpg.png

<control>F is your friend.

--
https://blog.kasson.com
 
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Eric Fossum wrote:
... 99,9% of image sensor technologists don't know the origins of DCG, ...
Which is why I made the effort to preserve the original White Paper (with permission) at PhotonsToPhotos.
Where abouts would I find this in your website Bill?
Linked to earlier in this thread.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67199429
Thanks Jim. It was more where it is linked to within Bill's site.

I did download it from the link you gave and read the document which is interesting. I hadn't spotted it previously on Bill's site and wondered what else I may possibly be missing.
348abf3fe5e140e58f252ec43ab1234a.jpg.png

<control>F is your friend.
Thank you Jim. I had been looking inside some of thos purple links 🙈
 
Verily !
 

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England and America, two countries divided by a common language.

Eric Fossum, post: 67203315, member: 1261637"]
Ephemeris wrote:... Did Aptina get bought up by ONSemi?...
...Eventually Aptina was acquired by ON Semi....
...Seems clear to me....
Well I read it twice, couldn't see what it was trying to tell me.
It told you that Aptina was acquired by On Semi. 'Acquired' means 'bought', in case English is not your first language, no shame in that, lots of folks with other mellifluous languages around here ;-).

Jack
My first language is English, from the small patch called England.

The issue was it was buried in side a lot of other text which did not seem relaxant.
Relaxant?
Make it bold, say the key points first, explain its 500 words in.

The post was not clear.
I thought the post was perfectly clear, and I appreciate the back story that Eric provided.

--
https://blog.kasson.com
[/QUOTE]
 
England and America, two countries divided by a common language.
Ha possibly. Where I live in England they have a language of there own, Yorkshire. I'm not a native Yorkshire person, and even after 15 years or so of living in it I still have to ask for translations 😂
Eric Fossum, post: 67212818, member: 1163177"]
Ephemeris wrote:... Did Aptina get bought up by ONSemi?...
...Eventually Aptina was acquired by ON Semi....
...Seems clear to me....
Well I read it twice, couldn't see what it was trying to tell me.
It told you that Aptina was acquired by On Semi. 'Acquired' means 'bought', in case English is not your first language, no shame in that, lots of folks with other mellifluous languages around here ;-).

Jack
My first language is English, from the small patch called England.

The issue was it was buried in side a lot of other text which did not seem relaxant.
Relaxant?
Make it bold, say the key points first, explain its 500 words in.

The post was not clear.
I thought the post was perfectly clear, and I appreciate the back story that Eric provided.
[/QUOTE]
 
First, noise is simply the variation of measurement between pixels in an image. When you see neighboring pixels with different brightness levels this is what we perceive as noise. In photographs this pixel-to-pixel variation comes from two primary sources - light itself and the electronics that measure that light.

Light is inherently noisy because it arrives in discrete, random packets, so each pixel in an exposure sees a different amount of light. Like all random events, the more events you can count in a given amount of time, the less variation you'll see between each event/pixel (poisson distribution). This is why you want a sensor to capture as much light as possible.

The light captured on a sensor is represented as an electrical charge - the random photon packets arriving at the sensor are converted to photo-electrons, which is later measured and converted into digital brightness values. There is a ratio between the amount of photons captured and the resulting electrical charge it produces - this is based on the "conversion gain" of the pixel. When gain is low, a lot of light is required to produce a given electrical charge - when gain is high, the same electrical charge is achieved with less light. A pixel has a limit to how much charge it can hold, so the gain must be carefully selected to not overflow that capacity for a given shooting situation.

When light is abundant or you have the luxury of long shutter speeds, you want a pixel with a low conversion gain. That way it can capture a lot of photons before exceeding its electrical holding capacity.

When light is scarce, a large holding capacity doesn't provide a benefit because the pixels are not going to receive enough light anyway to fill that capacity.

So why not just always use a large holding capacity for both situations, with one providing a benefit and the other being neutral? It's because there's a cost associated with a large holding capacity - less precision in counting the exact number of photons, which means more noise due the rounding errors in counting fewer photons. But didn't I say above that more light means less noise? Yes, but when there's a lot of light, the additional noise from imprecise counting of photons is outweighed by the greater reduction of noise from lowering the variation in the number of arriving photons. As to why measuring a larger capacity is less precise, think of it like measuring rain water in a large bucket vs a measuring cup - which offers more precision, esp for smaller amounts?

The break-even point of when noise from the precision loss of measuring a large holding capacity outweighs the benefit from lower variance of counting more total photons is a function of the total light available to be captured in a scene. When available light is low you want a lower holding capacity, ie greater conversion gain between photons and charge, otherwise the noise from precision loss of counting a large holding capacity adds insult to the additional noise you get from total fewer photons counted.

So you want higher conversion gain in low-light situations, ie High ISO.

But real-life scenes are not binary between bright and dark. Many scenes have both bright and dark areas - in other words, high dynamic range. In that situation the same rules above apply but selectively to the specific tones in the image - for the midtones and higher the number of photons counted is more important for that end of the dynamic range (total charge capacity to hold more stops of light) - for the deep shadows the precision of photons counted is more important for the other end of dynamic range (to distinguish the small amounts of light captured from the counting noise).

Here's a chart to help visualize the balance between these two noise sources - lower "photon shot noise" for total light captured vs lower "read noise" for more precise counting of photons in the shadows. The x-axis represents the brightness level in the scene, left being pure black and right being pure white. The y-axis represents the noise, with the contribution from shot noise in red and read noise in blue.


Shot noise vs read noise for a base ISO image on the Sony A7 III sensor

The solution is a pixel which can function in both modes - a low-conversion gain (high capacity), when light is abundant. And a high-conversion gain (low capacity), when light is scarce. That is what a dual-gain sensor provides.
I hate to nitpick here because I think Horshack and many others understand this. But with more light, the noise increases, and the signal increases more. So it is the SNR that improves, and only the relative amount of noise decreases.

Mathematically, the noise is sqrt of the sum of the variance in light-induced voltage plus the variance in electronics-alone induced voltage. The former varies like the sqrt of the average light-induced voltage (over many identical pixels with same average illumination or many reads of one pixel assuming constant average light illumination, or some combination thereof). The latter does not really depend on the light signal at all and is usually measured in the dark. There are other sources of noise too, like dark signal, but let's ignore that for most sensor situations.

I hope I said this correctly and also clearly We, in the image sensor technology business, usually find it best to refer back to collected-photoelectrons-prior-to-readout for all quantities. Sometimes when you use voltage it can get more complicated as there is often some gain along the way in the signal chain.

-EF, with liberal use of the bold-face function in the 2nd sentence. :)
 

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