Is anyone else waiting for a Zf before choosing + 8k video speculation

I like the 24fps 1/48th look. And pretty much only that look.

120fps means 1/120th minimum shutter, which is too fast and "stacatto" ... not my style.

Spielberg shot "Raiders" on 24fps and it looks _amaaaaazing_ so if it's good enough for Steven Spielberg and George Lucas, it's good enough for me.
120 fps with 1/120 s shutter speed is both sharper and smoother than 24 fps with 1/48 s shutter speed. No staccato occurs.
Again, people are arguing about blur without thinking about compression impacts.

In most compressions these days, you have a full key frame that's updated with pixel changes. When an actor is moving in front of a fixed scene, only the actor's pixels need to be updated. If you pan, all pixels have to be updated. What happens then depends upon your bandwidth, which tends to be fixed fairly low on our cameras, and also on downstream service providers, as well.

This is why the ASC and other Hollywood organizations are very careful in their testing and comparisons. You have to eradicate all the "other stuff" to talk authoritatively about "one thing."
During panning, only a thin strip on the left or right side of the screen actually contains new information. Of course, compression algorithm has to be smart and recognize that the remaining part of the image has to be shifted.

I'm pretty sure that it's not a compression issue. Have a look at this example that I already mentioned in one other post:
If you pause it, you will see that there are no compression issues in individual frames. The fact that its not completely smooth and details are smeared comes from low frame rate and persistence blur (see https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66130214 for an explanation).
 
Have a look at this example
No, I won't. The problem is that I don't know what's actually been captured versus everything else that happens downstream, including YouTube or other transcoding.

The only real way to make a decision is going to be a true apples-to-apples test. I want to see the uncompressed video coming off the camera and compare it to what the camera recorded.

Also, note we haven't yet talked about the impact of rolling shutters, either.
 
Have a look at this example
No, I won't. The problem is that I don't know what's actually been captured versus everything else that happens downstream, including YouTube or other transcoding.

The only real way to make a decision is going to be a true apples-to-apples test. I want to see the uncompressed video coming off the camera and compare it to what the camera recorded.

Also, note we haven't yet talked about the impact of rolling shutters, either.
What happens downstream can be seen by looking at individual frames. Nevertheless, if you want to get rid of those issues, there are online tools that use synthetic images to demonstrate that effect:
 
8K video requires a sensor with least 33M pixels, to be exact 7680 × 4320 = 33,177,600
 
8K video requires a sensor with least 33M pixels, to be exact 7680 × 4320 = 33,177,600
And that is 16:9, but Nikon FX sensors have the aspect ration of 3:2. Hence you need at least 7680:(7680/1.5) = 7680:5120 or around 40MP.

We also need to keep in mind that when Nikon introduced the Df in 2013, it had no video capability at all, while all other DSLRs introduced around that time had HD video. In 2012, Nikon introduced the 16MP D4, 36MP D800, and 24MP D600, but a year later Nikon gave the Df the lowest pixel count available at that time, the D4's 16MP sensor so that it would reveal the lower optical quality of ancient lenses as much.

Essentially, Nikon retro cameras and video is not a good combo. To get 8K video, you need to 40MP sensor, fast electronics, fast memory card -> CFx B, large battery, and good heat dissipation, i.e. a Z9 or at least a Z8.

Personally, I would much rather see Nikon introduce a third-generation Z6 with better AF and/or a higher-end DX body, but any Zf will likely have a low-pixel sensor and modest video capabilities.
 
I find the 24fps blur most disappointing when the film/video presents a magnificent lanscape that then blurs to mush when the camera pans slowly.
Are you sure that you're seeing motion blur and not compression issues?
I don't think so - I've seen it in Imax films. In fact that's when I became aware of it. I was expecting to be wowed by the clarity of the film, but I wasn't - at all. Unless the camera and subject were relatively stationary, it was very blurry.

It's the type of thing that can't not be seen once you become sensitized to it. It's there in the theatre, on my Blu-rays, on Netflix.

I do see compression artifacts in streaming media but not usually in moderate speed camera pans, where as MCLV pointed out, the new pixels are all on the edge. Rather it becomes evident when many pixels in the frame are changing, like a zoomed in shot of a football game where many bodies are in uncorrelated motion.
 
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I find the 24fps blur most disappointing when the film/video presents a magnificent lanscape that then blurs to mush when the camera pans slowly.
Are you sure that you're seeing motion blur and not compression issues?
I don't think so - I've seen it in Imax films. In fact that's when I became aware of it. I was expecting to be wowed by the clarity of the film, but I wasn't - at all. Unless the camera and subject were relatively stationary, it was very blurry.

It's the type of thing that can't not be seen once you become sensitized to it. It's there in the theatre, on my Blu-rays, on Netflix.

I do see compression artifacts in streaming media but not usually in moderate speed camera pans, where as MCLV pointed out, the new pixels are all on the edge. Rather it becomes evident when many pixels in the frame are changing, like a zoomed in shot of a football game where many bodies are in uncorrelated motion.
Just a clarification, it's in fact not just motion blur (i.e. the blur that is baked into each video frame) but also persistence blur which is created when eye track a moving object on a screen. Each video frame is stationary which creates a blur when eye is moving.

And yes, the bad quality of pans with static subject at 24 fps is also visible in cinema. Very similar situation is tracking a moving object on a screen when camera is static. On the other hand, pans following a subject that stays in the same position within the screen don't exhibit this particular issue (but it might be still visible in the background).
 
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On the other hand major television networks and streamers in the US provide 60p images (ABC, FOX, ESPN) at 720. They do this because they deliver a lot of sports and recognize that 1080i) does not capture action well. There is no controversy over that.
Actually, there was huge controversy over that at the start of HD, and different organizations picked differently. This is further exacerbated by both upstream and downstream transcoding.
Some Academy-Award directors have tried to woo people away from handicapped (try panning) low frame rates. There has been little success in doing that. But that should stop no one from shooting at 60 fps.
Look, I have no problem with people picking what they want to do based upon what they are trying to accomplish. 60P is sort of a norm now with video productions, not so much with motion pictures. As more and more young are exposed through their lifetime to high frame rate gaming, I suspect the higher shutter angles will get more use.

I sometimes wonder if the brain has a limit, though. The length of a single clip started going down with Sesame Street, Laugh In, and other hit, punch, hit, punch storytelling. Now, some ads have as many as 50 scenes in a 60-second length. Couple that higher frequency of data coming at you with a faster frequency of the actual frame duration itself, and I wonder if there's an upper limit to what we can really comprehend.
"...I wonder if there's an upper limit to what we can really comprehend."

You are ignoring the possibility that comprehension has also been decreasing...
 
On the other hand major television networks and streamers in the US provide 60p images (ABC, FOX, ESPN) at 720. They do this because they deliver a lot of sports and recognize that 1080i) does not capture action well. There is no controversy over that.
Actually, there was huge controversy over that at the start of HD, and different organizations picked differently. This is further exacerbated by both upstream and downstream transcoding.
Some Academy-Award directors have tried to woo people away from handicapped (try panning) low frame rates. There has been little success in doing that. But that should stop no one from shooting at 60 fps.
Look, I have no problem with people picking what they want to do based upon what they are trying to accomplish. 60P is sort of a norm now with video productions, not so much with motion pictures. As more and more young are exposed through their lifetime to high frame rate gaming, I suspect the higher shutter angles will get more use.

I sometimes wonder if the brain has a limit, though. The length of a single clip started going down with Sesame Street, Laugh In, and other hit, punch, hit, punch storytelling. Now, some ads have as many as 50 scenes in a 60-second length. Couple that higher frequency of data coming at you with a faster frequency of the actual frame duration itself, and I wonder if there's an upper limit to what we can really comprehend.
"...I wonder if there's an upper limit to what we can really comprehend."

You are ignoring the possibility that comprehension has also been decreasing...
I'm guessing that the ability to process certain types of visual information from video is increasing. My young engineering apprentices certainly find and extract data from a screen a lot faster than I can. They have the quickness of youth, but I suspect that playing video games since toddlerhood has molded their cortex differently than mine.
 
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On the other hand major television networks and streamers in the US provide 60p images (ABC, FOX, ESPN) at 720. They do this because they deliver a lot of sports and recognize that 1080i) does not capture action well. There is no controversy over that.
Actually, there was huge controversy over that at the start of HD, and different organizations picked differently. This is further exacerbated by both upstream and downstream transcoding.
Having studying HD decision in a communications class, I can say America also choose poorly in Over-air and thru Pipes HD implementation vs. what Europe choose. America left out of its HD protocol a way to keep audio synced with video; which is why we Americans to frequently get to watch actor's and commentator's mouthing words, and us hearing different words. :-x
 
The prospect of people demanding tech-y "bells and whistles" and a high-tech super-powers experience for an old-school camera is redolent with ineffable sadness. 💧💧💧
I’m not sure about that. Almost all fujis line up is based on that. For me it’s more of the manual dials experience and clean styling. It’s more fun to use and looks sleeker in general.



I wouldn’t mind a new take on it that isn’t based on old cams also.



A lot of music gear for instance still has manual dials for instance but isn’t retro.
 
Actually I think I mis-spoke. Fuji's XH2S is 4k or 6.2k Open Gate, 26 megapixels isn't enough for 8k video.
Correct.
My goal is to take still crops from video that are "good enough" to act as stills.
So you're going to record video at high shutter speeds? High shutter speed video has been controversial for some time. We have an entire planet accustomed to frame blur at what is effectively 1/24 second shutter speeds.
I think it's more like 1/50 (2x frames per second - or half angle). But yes point taken.

My two use cases are to get good video & decent frame grabs.

Decent video - I want to shake up the subject / photographer relationship by not having a shutter go off every second or so and capture the "in between" moments rather than the "posed" moments. To be able to use both the video and stills, and I'd choose the stills around the motion blur. I think we've all seen nice stills from movies. And I don't mind some motion blur - to either work around or to keep for "artistic" purposes.

The other criticism I often hear from wanting to shoot this way is - the JPGs will be crappy. Video JPGs aren't as good as still JPGs, but I'm really not worried about this. It's a decent tradeoff - in my opinion.

Decent frame grabs - particularly for things like sports and dance, it's hard to get the "decisive moment" when the action is so fast. I'd toyed with the idea of getting a Nikon 1 back in the day for this purpose - capable of shooting insane frame rates and with a massive buffer. But it was out of my budget for just this one purpose.

Like this photo - I wish she was fully upside down, but no matter how many times we tried (less than a handful, it would be cruel to ask her to do it over and over when the failing was mine). Something that could shoot at 50-60fps and with a decently fast shutter speed (potentially cranking up the ISO) could have gotten the shot.... If the shutter speed was fast enough to "freeze" the motion.
 
One question, why would one want to smooth out skin blemishes?? That's what my phone camera does that I hate. Blemishes are real and they are there, why take them out of a photo and make it look like a phone photo.
Not universally, selectively. I dislike overly smoothed skin. But certain algorithms work better on larger files, and then I mask out the bits I don't want, or it gives a healing brush/clone stamp more to work with.
 
So you're going to record video at high shutter speeds? High shutter speed video has been controversial for some time. We have an entire planet accustomed to frame blur at what is effectively 1/24 second shutter speeds.
Do you think that expectation will change at some point? I'm finding the 1/24s blur to be more and more disconcerting as video and display resolutions rise. I'm admiring crisp, detailed frames one moment, and then it all turns to mush as the camera pans.
Yes, panning at 24 fps is an absolute mess. The thing is that it's unsolveable at that framerate. Either it's choppy, blurry or the panning is so slow that you are almost not panning at all.
I think video games will lead the way here. People are used to 60fps in gaming.

For gaming it helps, since you don't want whatever you're aiming for - the rope you have the grab, the enemy you're trying to attack - to be too blurry.

Really fast shutter speeds (at 24 fps) are used in action movies to purposefully make the action look disjointed. And for some art styles - like animation - low FPS is used for artistic effect. I think I read that in one of the Spider Man animated films, they even animated certain characters at different frames per second to make them look disconnected to the other characters.
 
The prospect of people demanding tech-y "bells and whistles" and a high-tech super-powers experience for an old-school camera is redolent with ineffable sadness. 💧💧💧
I’m not sure about that. Almost all fujis line up is based on that. For me it’s more of the manual dials experience and clean styling. It’s more fun to use and looks sleeker in general.

I wouldn’t mind a new take on it that isn’t based on old cams also.

A lot of music gear for instance still has manual dials for instance but isn’t retro.
Manual dials are good design. You can see this in the auto world as well with the blow-back against the (incredibly bad) touchscreen controls in cars for stuff like AC and speaker volume.
 
Like this photo - I wish she was fully upside down, but no matter how many times we tried (less than a handful, it would be cruel to ask her to do it over and over when the failing was mine). Something that could shoot at 50-60fps and with a decently fast shutter speed (potentially cranking up the ISO) could have gotten the shot.... If the shutter speed was fast enough to "freeze" the motion.
I remember photographing high school baseball years ago with my D2h.

I was shooting the batter with tight framing, trying to get the ball in-frame as he swang.

I tried a few 8fps shots and the ball wouldn't be in the frame.

I switched to single-shot and relied on watching his body language and using timing.

I had a pretty high success rate ... with single shots and timing.
 
Really fast shutter speeds (at 24 fps) are used in action movies to purposefully make the action look disjointed. And for some art styles - like animation - low FPS is used for artistic effect. I think I read that in one of the Spider Man animated films, they even animated certain characters at different frames per second to make them look disconnected to the other characters.
Yes, the D-Day invasion scene from "Saving Private Ryan" was shot 24fps with fast shutter speed, resulting in this look.

Somewhat related, in "The Empire Strikes Back" ... the scene where Luke enters the cave on Dagobah and sees Vader (sorry, hopefully this isn't a spoiler for anyone!) it looks like they doubled-up or quadrupled-up their 24fps frames for a funky kind of slo-mo that really looks great and surreal, dreamlike.
 
8k is 32mpix. Fuji 40mpix sensor only supports 8k. The 26mpix is 6.2k max.
 
Like this photo - I wish she was fully upside down, but no matter how many times we tried (less than a handful, it would be cruel to ask her to do it over and over when the failing was mine). Something that could shoot at 50-60fps and with a decently fast shutter speed (potentially cranking up the ISO) could have gotten the shot.... If the shutter speed was fast enough to "freeze" the motion.
I remember photographing high school baseball years ago with my D2h.

I was shooting the batter with tight framing, trying to get the ball in-frame as he swang.

I tried a few 8fps shots and the ball wouldn't be in the frame.

I switched to single-shot and relied on watching his body language and using timing.

I had a pretty high success rate ... with single shots and timing.
8 fps doesn't really cut it today. The Z6ii does 14 fps in slideshow mode and it captures the entire motion with spare. The Z9 does 20 fps but at that point I've got scared of how many frames it captures and filling up my card, so I dialed it down to 15 fps.

With a single shot, you're depending on luck and of course your skill. With tech enabling more fps, anyone, including people are not as lucky or not as skillful like scrubs like me, can also capture that frame.
 

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