Z8 problems lead to Z8ii sooner/later than Nikon planned?

mosswings · Aug 10, 2023

Last I checked, when Toyota or any one of the passenger car companies underwent a recall their new model development schedules didn't change to hide the shame of a recall under a new nameplate; they just fixed the dang problem and made a note of it for future product designs. The nameplate didn't need to change or a new model rushed out because the company made its customers whole.
These issues with lugs popping out and such are minor glitches in a very complex and very well designed product. They don't even rise to the level of the D600's oil spatters on the sensor. And Nikon is making its customers whole as fast as it can. As it should.
This poll makes me sad. To me it's implying that Nikon is in such a sorry state and so clueless about how to make a proper modern mirrorless camera that simply fixing the issue isn't sufficient - that it has to make its customers MORE than whole by releasing a more advanced product on an accelerated schedule if it is to keep them.
Think about that for a minute. You're accelerating the creation of a complex product to mollify customers inconvenienced by a misbehaving lug or unavoidable heating in a tightly packed camera body. Accelerating development would only ensure that MORE manufacturing gaffes - or worse - would befall the new product.
Nikon is not that stupid. Frankly, if all that the Z8 were attracting were customers like this I wouldn't blame them for exiting the market altogether.
Now a discussion about what the Z6/Z7 next generation needs to have to get our dollars would be more interesting...oh yeah, we've had that conversation here a hundred times already.

SmilerGrogan · Aug 10, 2023

Based on past experience with Nikon the answer is probably not. They’ll fix the problems as they go.

And what is this overheating baloney? No one who shoots video would ever dream of making 8 or 10 minute shots. If your shot lasts more than a a minute, you’ll bore the audience to death (unless you’re Alfonso Cuaron).

Dbltfarmer · Aug 10, 2023

ovrebekk said:
Lazer42 said:

Honestly having had the Z8 for several weeks now I'm really surprised by the battery life criticisms. I find the battery life to be pretty on par with my Z7ii and much, much better than my D500.

Click to expand...

Better than the D500? Really?

If so that is pretty impressive. DSLR's generally had very good battery life compared to the mirrorless cameras, but the D500 battery is lower capacity I guess.

This year I’m shooting fall camp for Texas Texas Football with the z8 mounted with the 100-400 s lens. Last year I shot fall camp with the z9 and the same lens. In the previous years I shot fall camp with the z62 and the previous years with a D850 and D500. All still photography.
with the previous cameras I would only get 500 to 600 shots in our30 to 45 minute viewing periods. I can say this that the Z8 is better than the Z6II with the battery life. It is very close to the D850 and D500 in battery life. After I received the z8 I saw a deal on the Promaster Velocity cine, 256GB card. It has never gotten hot. I also have a 325GB delkin Back for my Z9. I have used it with the Z8 and it has never gotten hot.
I also use a Black Rabid shoulder strap connected to the tripod socket on the bottom or the lens foot. I never use the lugs on the camera. I was lucky enough to get my Z8 after the recall so it is not and issue. So you see the problems with the Z8 have not been any problem for me and it is a great camera for me.

astirusty · Aug 10, 2023

mosswings said:
These issues with lugs popping out and such are minor glitches in a very complex and very well designed product.

Minor when lugs popping out isn't happening to your Z8?

mosswings said:
They don't even rise to the level of the D600's oil spatters on the sensor. And Nikon is making its customers whole as fast as it can. As it should.

Never heard of smashed lens and damaged camera being cleaned off, like oil or grease off a sensor.

mosswings said:
This poll makes me sad.

Seriously? A mere poll? Sad is having to help a vet put your suffering best friend down. Geez man, get a grip!

mosswings said:
To me it's implying that Nikon is in such a sorry state and so clueless about how to make a proper modern mirrorless camera that simply fixing the issue isn't sufficient

Not what poll implies. What poll might imply** is whether people will be wary of buying Z8 when they consider other discussed issues. Going by history of people asking whether to buy Z# now or wait till Z#+1 or Z#ii is released; it is likely problems of Z8 will similar factor in.

** If it makes you happy, the results of poll show super majority of people (84%) believe two problems and previously discussed Z8 issues will have no impact on Nikon's release possibly Z8ii schedule.

mosswings · Aug 10, 2023

astirusty said:
mosswings said:

These issues with lugs popping out and such are minor glitches in a very complex and very well designed product.

Click to expand...

Minor when lugs popping out isn't happening to your Z8?

astirusty said:

They don't even rise to the level of the D600's oil spatters on the sensor. And Nikon is making its customers whole as fast as it can. As it should.

Click to expand...

Never heard of smashed lens and damaged camera being cleaned off, like oil or grease off a sensor.

astirusty said:

This poll makes me sad.

Click to expand...

Seriously? A mere poll? Sad is having to help a vet put your suffering best friend down. Geez man, get a grip!

astirusty said:

To me it's implying that Nikon is in such a sorry state and so clueless about how to make a proper modern mirrorless camera that simply fixing the issue isn't sufficient

Click to expand...

Not what poll implies. What poll might imply** is whether people will be wary of buying Z8 when they consider other discussed issues. Going by history of people asking whether to buy Z# now or wait till Z#+1 or Z#ii is released; it is likely problems of Z8 will similar factor in.

** If it makes you happy, the results of poll show super majority of people (84%) believe two problems and previously discussed Z8 issues will have no impact on Nikon's release possibly Z8ii schedule.

If the poll was, "will you be wary of buying a z8 given the various problems of the early adopters", that would be interesting. The original question asked: "will the z8II schedule be changed and by how much because of these various problems?" The overwhelming response was, "it won't matter at all".

Is that surprising?

Leonard Shepherd · Aug 10, 2023

GeoffRG said:
I have already said that I would have been more inclined to consider the Z8 with a multi-power grip and dual CFexpress slots. The absence of these doesn’t seem to be harming sales so Nikon probably sees no reason to include them.

Whoa there - Nikon are also looking at those likely to trade from the D850 to Z.

D850 owners are likely to have both SD cards and spare batteries.

GeoffRG said:
However, if enough people complain,

I doubt Nikon will listen - maybe Nikon or looking at a different stick to you ;-)

GeoffRG said:
I don’t see many people here asking for a different grip but I do see some saying they won’t/wouldn’t buy the current offering.

The same is true of any camera body ;-)

At some stage I would like to like Nikon to take a decision to have a slightly larger than EN – EL –15 battery – as with Sony. This would mean buying some new spare batteries. I managed to get new 15b for £35 each when a retailer made a pricing error.

GeoffRG said:
Let’s see how Nikon responds. I think it very unlikely that a version with a Z9 style integrated grip will happen.

I do not undrestand

:-D

You are IMO describing a Z9, not a Z8.

dtc25 · Aug 11, 2023

Stan Disbrow said:
Hi,

It will lead to the premature end of life cycle with no Mark II. Everyone who wants a Z8 after that point will just have to buy a Z9.

Reason: Loss of profitability due to excessive warranty and line rework costs.

I've seen that happen to many products.

Stan

batleys · Aug 11, 2023

mosswings said:
If the poll was, "will you be wary of buying a z8 given the various problems of the early adopters", that would be interesting. The original question asked: "will the z8II schedule be changed and by how much because of these various problems?" The overwhelming response was, "it won't matter at all".
Is that surprising?

Unfortunately sites likes these can be a little bit of a bubble and not necessarily reflect the real world - as some work themselves up into a faux frenzy.

I wish all these doom sayers really existed out there beyond the web sphere - the demand for the z8 would drop and I wouldn't have to wait so long in the UK for my new z8!

--
Simon
https://www.flickr.com/people/suffolkimages/

GeoffRG · Aug 11, 2023

Leonard Shepherd said:
GeoffRG said:

I have already said that I would have been more inclined to consider the Z8 with a multi-power grip and dual CFexpress slots. The absence of these doesn’t seem to be harming sales so Nikon probably sees no reason to include them.

Click to expand...

Whoa there - Nikon are also looking at those likely to trade from the D850 to Z.

D850 owners are likely to have both SD cards and spare batteries.

No, Nikon are looking to sell to anyone who will buy, that may be D800/810 users and some D5 and D6 users who don't want the Z9 (they exist),

Leonard Shepherd said:
Leonard Shepherd said:

However, if enough people complain,

Click to expand...

I doubt Nikon will listen - maybe Nikon or looking at a different stick to you ;-)

Nikon listen to professional users and some very influential individuals, if they complain Nikon listens.

Leonard Shepherd said:
Leonard Shepherd said:

I don’t see many people here asking for a different grip but I do see some saying they won’t/wouldn’t buy the current offering.

Click to expand...

The same is true of any camera body ;-)

At some stage I would like to like Nikon to take a decision to have a slightly larger than EN – EL –15 battery – as with Sony. This would mean buying some new spare batteries. I managed to get new 15b for £35 each when a retailer made a pricing error.

Yes, any camera body that takes a grip presents the same dilemma. However, not all grips are quite as ill sorted as the one for the Z8, it actually makes the camera bigger than a Z9 with on longer battery life.
Nikon has a larger than EN-EL15 battery, it is the EN-EL18 but Nikon doesn't want you to use it with the Z8.

Leonard Shepherd said:
Leonard Shepherd said:

Let’s see how Nikon responds. I think it very unlikely that a version with a Z9 style integrated grip will happen.

Click to expand...

I do not undrestand :-D

You are IMO describing a Z9, not a Z8.

You would understand if you had read all the preceding posts where one person wanted a Z8 that could take an EN-EL18 battery. You are absolutely correct, if that is want you want, buy a Z9.

Stan Disbrow · Aug 11, 2023

Hi,

Don't forget all the units pulled back from the pipeline to the factory for rework there. And all units still inside Nikon are a part of this.

This being why new ones don't have the issue. Twice now they had to do that - that we know of. The costs of doing so directly subtract from the profit margin. At some point executives decide they have a reason to toss in the towel.

Sometimes design goes too far when it comes to Cost Improvement, which is what the Z8 is. A cost improved Z9. Sometimes design has a clever idea which worked great in protoype but just doesn't work out for high volume manufacturing.

The Z8 is looking like it's heading down this path to me. Hopefully, there aren't more issues waiting to pop up.

Stan

primeshooter · Aug 11, 2023

Stan Disbrow said:
Hi,

Don't forget all the units pulled back from the pipeline to the factory for rework there. And all units still inside Nikon are a part of this.

This being why new ones don't have the issue. Twice now they had to do that - that we know of. The costs of doing so directly subtract from the profit margin. At some point executives decide they have a reason to toss in the towel.

Sometimes design goes too far when it comes to Cost Improvement, which is what the Z8 is. A cost improved Z9. Sometimes design has a clever idea which worked great in protoype but just doesn't work out for high volume manufacturing.

The Z8 is looking like it's heading down this path to me. Hopefully, there aren't more issues waiting to pop up.

Stan

If they think they are pulling a D610 on me they will be hearing from my lawyer...

Leonard Shepherd · Aug 11, 2023

GeoffRG said:
GeoffRG said:

L

Click to expand...

GeoffRG said:

I doubt Nikon will listen - maybe Nikon or looking at a different stick to you ;-)

Click to expand...

Nikon listen to professional users and some very influential individuals, if they complain Nikon listens.

True - but before making a decision similar to the one that has been made about the basic Z8 specification.
Twin CF cards and a battery similar in size to Sony would have resulted in a different product.

Leonard Shepherd · Aug 11, 2023

Stan Disbrow said:
Stan Disbrow wrote-

Stan Disbrow said:
The Z8 is looking like it's heading down this path to me.

You are entitled to an express opinion - perhaps before looking at sales figures.

Despite some delivery hold-ups rectifying known problems the Z8 seems to have sold about 75% of Z9 20 months sales – in under three months - in USA

Stan Disbrow · Aug 11, 2023

Hi,

That is a good thing. Except it comes back to bite you when there are recalls. High volume production means fairly small profit margin per unit. Recalls are always very costly and it doesn't take but a couple to wipe out those small profit margins.

And no one here is every going to be privy to the actual figures. My opinion is based on having seen such figures many times. The company or the product in question plays almost a zero part of that.

Hopefully, they don't have a third issue requiring a recall. I truly fear for the premature end of the Z8 product life should there be.

And, if I had been considering buying one, I surely would dismiss the Z8 at this point. And there's another point of worry for the Z8: what these two recalls have done to their future sales.

But perhaps those who were considering a Z8 change to considering a Z9.

Stan

GeoffRG · Aug 11, 2023

Stan Disbrow said:
Hi,

Don't forget all the units pulled back from the pipeline to the factory for rework there. And all units still inside Nikon are a part of this.

This being why new ones don't have the issue. Twice now they had to do that - that we know of. The costs of doing so directly subtract from the profit margin. At some point executives decide they have a reason to toss in the towel.

Sometimes design goes too far when it comes to Cost Improvement, which is what the Z8 is. A cost improved Z9. Sometimes design has a clever idea which worked great in protoype but just doesn't work out for high volume manufacturing.

The Z8 is looking like it's heading down this path to me. Hopefully, there aren't more issues waiting to pop up.

Stan

I beg to differ, the Z8 is a separate, stand alone, model in the Z range, it isn't a cut down Z9, though some may see it as such. I think just four confirmed cases of strap lug detachment in 40,000 samples is statistically insignificant. However Nikon has chosen to take pre-emptive action to ensure that it doesn't happen again. That is excellent customer service in my book.

primeshooter · Aug 11, 2023

Stan Disbrow said:
Hi,

That is a good thing. Except it comes back to bite you when there are recalls. High volume production means fairly small profit margin per unit. Recalls are always very costly and it doesn't take but a couple to wipe out those small profit margins.

And no one here is every going to be privy to the actual figures. My opinion is based on having seen such figures many times. The company or the product in question plays almost a zero part of that.

Hopefully, they don't have a third issue requiring a recall. I truly fear for the premature end of the Z8 product life should there be.

And, if I had been considering buying one, I surely would dismiss the Z8 at this point. And there's another point of worry for the Z8: what these two recalls have done to their future sales.

But perhaps those who were considering a Z8 change to considering a Z9.

Stan

Appreciate your experience; but I very much doubt if you were set on a Z8 that a Z9 would suddenly work for you. The Z9 is a big boat anchor and is much heavier. People choosing the Z8 are doing so for size.

When my Z 8 returns next week I'll be looking forward to using it again with zero issue.

dtc25 · Aug 11, 2023

Stan Disbrow said:
Hi,

Don't forget all the units pulled back from the pipeline to the factory for rework there. And all units still inside Nikon are a part of this.

This being why new ones don't have the issue. Twice now they had to do that - that we know of. The costs of doing so directly subtract from the profit margin. At some point executives decide they have a reason to toss in the towel.

Sometimes design goes too far when it comes to Cost Improvement, which is what the Z8 is. A cost improved Z9. Sometimes design has a clever idea which worked great in protoype but just doesn't work out for high volume manufacturing.

The Z8 is looking like it's heading down this path to me. Hopefully, there aren't more issues waiting to pop up.

Stan

I can't see it myself. The costs for fixing the existing units is already there, and Nikon has to bear this even if they stop production of the Z8. I imagine the production will already have been switched to correct the problem so there won't be an issue with new units.

If there's another problem then yes, but I see no reason that there will be.

sirhawkeye64 · Aug 11, 2023

astirusty said:
Will Z8's short battery life and higher potential to overheat; coupled to lenses not locking (some Z8s) and anchor strap failure recalls drive Nikon to get Z8ii to market sooner than planned or result in Nikon taking more time on Z8ii?

(Similar to Nikon quickly following up Z6 / Z7s with Z6ii / Z7iis.)

Feel free to post how many months sooner or later for Z8ii. Since only Nikon knows original schedule, only Nikon can say you are wrong. ;-)

Why Poll? For fun discussion and sense of what people think should be outcome.

So far, the two TSAs have not really lead to any functional problems from an imaging standpoint (such as dust on the sensor, faulty sensor,etc) and have been more "external". I don't think it will impact the release timeframe for aZ8 II, which will probably be 2-3 years from now regardless.

batleys · Aug 11, 2023

sirhawkeye64 said:
astirusty said:

Will Z8's short battery life and higher potential to overheat; coupled to lenses not locking (some Z8s) and anchor strap failure recalls drive Nikon to get Z8ii to market sooner than planned or result in Nikon taking more time on Z8ii?

(Similar to Nikon quickly following up Z6 / Z7s with Z6ii / Z7iis.)

Feel free to post how many months sooner or later for Z8ii. Since only Nikon knows original schedule, only Nikon can say you are wrong. ;-)

Why Poll? For fun discussion and sense of what people think should be outcome.

Click to expand...

So far, the two TSAs have not really lead to any functional problems from an imaging standpoint (such as dust on the sensor, faulty sensor,etc) and have been more "external". I don't think it will impact the release timeframe for aZ8 II, which will probably be 2-3 years from now regardless.

I suspect a slightly 'revised' z8 is being created now anyway. It appears supply inventory from Nikon has dried up into the UK right now - and possibly continental Europe - whilst a new 'version' of the z8 is manufactured or modified. It might be just the service advisory fixes or possibly there are other less severe optimisations or checks happening to reduce the likelihood of future recalls - this is pure speculation on my part.. but what is fact is that at least one retailer has advised me that z8 deliveries have hit pause with no expected delivery resumption dates announced at this time. It feels like I will be waiting at least into September - but at least it should be ship shape by then

--
Simon
https://www.flickr.com/people/suffolkimages/

mosswings · Aug 11, 2023

batleys said:
sirhawkeye64 said:

astirusty said:

Will Z8's short battery life and higher potential to overheat; coupled to lenses not locking (some Z8s) and anchor strap failure recalls drive Nikon to get Z8ii to market sooner than planned or result in Nikon taking more time on Z8ii?

(Similar to Nikon quickly following up Z6 / Z7s with Z6ii / Z7iis.)

Feel free to post how many months sooner or later for Z8ii. Since only Nikon knows original schedule, only Nikon can say you are wrong. ;-)

Why Poll? For fun discussion and sense of what people think should be outcome.

Click to expand...

So far, the two TSAs have not really lead to any functional problems from an imaging standpoint (such as dust on the sensor, faulty sensor,etc) and have been more "external". I don't think it will impact the release timeframe for aZ8 II, which will probably be 2-3 years from now regardless.

Click to expand...

I suspect a slightly 'revised' z8 is being created now anyway. It appears supply inventory from Nikon has dried up into the UK right now - and possibly continental Europe - whilst a new 'version' of the z8 is manufactured or modified. It might be just the service advisory fixes or possibly there are other less severe optimisations or checks happening to reduce the likelihood of future recalls - this is pure speculation on my part.. but what is fact is that at least one retailer has advised me that z8 deliveries have hit pause with no expected delivery resumption dates announced at this time. It feels like I will be waiting at least into September - but at least it should be ship shape by then

Also known as a "running design change". Manufacturers will often substitute different components or alter fabricated elements of a product without notification to accommodate supply chain changes or to improve conformance to design specification/intent.

Firmware updates are running design changes. Because they're performed in the field by end users they require announcement.

Z8 problems lead to Z8ii sooner/later than Nikon planned?

Z8 problems lead to Z8ii sooner/later than Nikon planned?

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