Digital camera to replace medium format film cameras?

samsst

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I tried GFX50s ii, wanting to replace my medium film cameras such as Pentax 645 and Mamiya 7. The experience and result is not what I expected.

I cannot give out a concrete answer with regard to what is missing. The files are great, the images not so much?! They contain tones of details and rooms to be edited, but they are too "digital" too "boring", I can't really articulate, so I think maybe the lens is the problem? (Only used the kit)

What are your thoughts on this?
 
But the journey from a raw capture to a satisfactory print (or even on-screen image) involves more user work and input.
If I may respond here. So film especially chromes are what we used to call (wyswyg). So one visualized what they would get with film and assuming correct range of exposures, the results pretty much matched. Yes maybe some touching up of drum scans including cleaning “worms” from the scan. Not usually much adjustment necessary.
This makes absolutely no sense at all. None of it.

Chromes are what we used to call (wysiwyg)?????

The term wysiwyg didn't exist before the personal computer age.

"Chromes" were an accurate representation of the original scene? By whose standards?

Early Kodachrome had purple to black skies with many other colors wildly exaggerated. By K64 skies were cobalt blue and many photographers demanded their "Real" Kodachrome back. Ektachrome had deficiencies in every color. Agfachrome looked nothing like Kodak colors. Velvia exaggerated everything.

No color film ever produced accurate renditions of any original scene.

I've been a drum scanner operator for over 30 years. I've been involved in color reproduction in Offset Lithography and Photography for 50 years. Other than the fact that I don't have the opportunity to reshoot historical images that are on film with digital equipment (because the opportunity is gone), the arrival of digital photography has improved every aspect of color and image reproduction. Other than those historical images, I would never choose film to shoot any important image. And I wouldn't hesitate to assure a client I could nail the requirements for image quality, no matter the criteria, using digital equipment.

We couldn't come close with film technology to the quality we routinely produce now with digital cameras and methods. Not even close. And most of the image quality from the film era is trash (even in the hands of us pros back then) compared to that which even modest digital cameras are now capable of making.

(BTW, "worms with drum scans?" What worms? Are you getting confused with the problems that some older, 4/3 format Fujifilm sensors had?)

With all equipment, a certain level of competence and expertise is necessary. If someone is having trouble getting good results with equipment at the level of the GFX system, it's not the fault of the equipment.

Very simply put, for image quality, not requiring me to take out a second mortgage for gear, the GFX system is the best I have ever operated. It's not the fastest, doesn't have the range of lenses of others. But it's image quality is simply superb.
With proper computer calibration and using ProRGB, assuming proper exposure, there is usually little to do other than the standard sharpening and cleaning unless someone has an extreme range of light, assuming base ISO.
No.
I found the raw GFX files malleable enough but required far too much effort to obtain something acceptable - my own experience.

Very rarely could obtain similar results vs D850 and x1d.
Before my GFX I had D800E and D850 equipment. Great gear. I did professional work with it all day long. No complaints. No excuses. Money in the bank. Got the work done, slept well at night. In terms of ultimate image quality - no match for my GFX100S and GF lenses.
I shot 4x5 Velvia 50,100f and E100 mostly. The others you list are irrelevant.
I will point out that you made unqualified statements about the superiority of 4x5 color film over GFX files with regard to color fidelity. To reject specific counter-evidence as “irrelevant” is moving the goalposts, it would seem.
In low light and with proper filters color output was quite reasonable. One became accustomed to see as the film sees, and so my literary license with (wyswyg). one would adjust exposures and filters to compensate. Velvia 50 in low light is not as punchy or saturated but has a luminous quality which makes it ideal for brilliant quiet landscapes.

if you don’t know “worms” than you can’t have cleaned up any 4x5 film scans. This is the result of debris on the film when processed. It may be lint, hair, whatever.

Been shooting digital since 2010, D300,D800 And D850. The neutral profile and Pro RGB give me good results, but it’s not accurate. None of it is.
Now digital printing has come of age and has eclipsed the C and Chromira prints of the past, though some of my large durst lambda prints from 4x5 are still unmatched.

I think most who enjoy the GFX are enamored by the resolution and miss the color scheme.
What is your basis for this conclusion? There are some forum members who know a thing or two about color. And resolution.
It’s not accurate either and Just not for me. Haven’t tried any non-GF lenses so maybe there is something to consider. The H series Hasselblad gave much better, more accurate color rendition than GFX. That is my experience.

Until one tries the alternatives, one rationalizes their choices as being the best etc. it may be hard for most to see past their emotional commitment to their decisions.
Again, there are forum members who use the GFX that have significant experience with many (most) of the notable cameras of the past 50+ years. Any attachment for these folks is due to something other than emotion.
Objectively, I can’t get the GFX colors the way I see the landscape, I pass. Why is that a problem for anyone? There’s no right/wrong, it’s whatever works for you.

I recall a review poster some years ago of a well known European photographer who used a Leica Monochrom and 50 APO m with harsh flash. The poster cursed the photographer for not using the equipment the way “it had been intended”, in his view,, with a long grey tonal range. The photographer became famous and the poster was lost in all the noise.

Say what you will, but if I can’t get what I want out of a sensor, no reason to keep it.
Sound advice.
 
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Rich, I agree, but there's a niggle. I first ran into WYSIWYG as a term at Xerox PARC in the early 70s.
Early 70s? Gees you must be a really old guy!

;-)

Back then (actually a few years earlier) I knew nada about any of this computer stuff. I never heard of PARC until the 80s. I was still deeply into linear op amps. I was working at a company outside of Philadelphia that thought it could compete with HP making EKG equipment. Boy, were they wrong!

My project was a very low impedance-input (as in almost DC) differential amplifier that did nothing but automatically adjust to variations in skin impedance.

I could never understand why anyone was interested in digital electronics. After all, what could one ever do with circuits that were either totally 'on' or totally 'off?'
 
Objectively, I can’t get the GFX colors the way I see the landscape, I pass. Why is that a problem for anyone? There’s no right/wrong, it’s whatever works for you.
That is the opposite of objective--your complaint is totally subjective, i.e., about "the way [you] see the landscape". A problem with your statements is that you're claiming that the GFX system generally does not produce 'good' color or 'accurate' color or however you want to characterize it, which is demonstrably false. The main and perhaps sole reason you can't achieve the color you want, or for that matter pretty much any color that one might want, is that you basically refuse to engage in very common digital darkroom work. You insist on trying to "get it exactly correct in camera" and hesitate or even decline to perform common digital darkroom adjustments: "there is usually little to do other than the standard sharpening". Let's put it this way: did you ever print color film? If so, when doing that, did you adjust the color controls on the enlarger? If so, why won't you perform the digital darkroom equivalents of that?

You're of course welcome to use whatever photographic equipment you like, and whatever procedures you like. Either you're a professional who has to satisfy clients, or you're an amateur who wants to satisfy yourself, but you don't have to satisfy me or anyone else on DPReview.

Just don't claim that your subjective preferences and/or semi-arbitrary workflow limitations are the arbiter of universal fact for other photographers.
 
But the journey from a raw capture to a satisfactory print (or even on-screen image) involves more user work and input.
If I may respond here. So film especially chromes are what we used to call (wyswyg). So one visualized what they would get with film and assuming correct range of exposures, the results pretty much matched. Yes maybe some touching up of drum scans including cleaning “worms” from the scan. Not usually much adjustment necessary.
This makes absolutely no sense at all. None of it.

Chromes are what we used to call (wysiwyg)?????

The term wysiwyg didn't exist before the personal computer age.

"Chromes" were an accurate representation of the original scene? By whose standards?

Early Kodachrome had purple to black skies with many other colors wildly exaggerated. By K64 skies were cobalt blue and many photographers demanded their "Real" Kodachrome back. Ektachrome had deficiencies in every color. Agfachrome looked nothing like Kodak colors. Velvia exaggerated everything.
No color film ever produced accurate renditions of any original scene.
Thanks for saving me Rich...

My mind got sucked into this dark hole and I couldnt even laugh to think of trying film output with Fuji's 50sii or Pentax 645D / Leica S2 with Kodak MF CCD sensors.

Are we comparing reading physical books with Kindle or iPad again?

I've been a drum scanner operator for over 30 years. I've been involved in color reproduction in Offset Lithography and Photography for 50 years. Other than the fact that I don't have the opportunity to reshoot historical images that are on film with digital equipment (because the opportunity is gone), the arrival of digital photography has improved every aspect of color and image reproduction. Other than those historical images, I would never choose film to shoot any important image. And I wouldn't hesitate to assure a client I could nail the requirements for image quality, no matter the criteria, using digital equipment.

We couldn't come close with film technology to the quality we routinely produce now with digital cameras and methods. Not even close. And most of the image quality from the film era is trash (even in the hands of us pros back then) compared to that which even modest digital cameras are now capable of making.

(BTW, "worms with drum scans?" What worms? Are you getting confused with the problems that some older, 4/3 format Fujifilm sensors had?)

With all equipment, a certain level of competence and expertise is necessary. If someone is having trouble getting good results with equipment at the level of the GFX system, it's not the fault of the equipment.

Very simply put, for image quality, not requiring me to take out a second mortgage for gear, the GFX system is the best I have ever operated. It's not the fastest, doesn't have the range of lenses of others. But it's image quality is simply superb.
With proper computer calibration and using ProRGB, assuming proper exposure, there is usually little to do other than the standard sharpening and cleaning unless someone has an extreme range of light, assuming base ISO.
No.
I found the raw GFX files malleable enough but required far too much effort to obtain something acceptable - my own experience.

Very rarely could obtain similar results vs D850 and x1d.
Before my GFX I had D800E and D850 equipment. Great gear. I did professional work with it all day long. No complaints. No excuses. Money in the bank. Got the work done, slept well at night. In terms of ultimate image quality - no match for my GFX100S and GF lenses.
 
As raised above you need to be processing the raw files to make a judgement. Even from there, I have to agree with you.

If you are used to the film look - which is also the lenses used from the ‘film era’, the GFX + native lenses’s accuracy of colour and detail across the frames and lack aberrations is unsettling. The overall result is technically better, but that’s not what ‘images’ or you always need.

I have an array of native GF lenses but also a greater number of vintage manual focus adapted glass both medium format and FF, which I use on the GFX.

For the most reliable balance between a less digital look and yet fairly up to date results (I.e no vignetting for a start!), my Pentax-A 645 glass does the job. As you say you have a Pentax 645, and so I presume several lenses, why not try the 645Z? The optical viewfinder is an incredible experience compared to the contrasty and flickery GFX50 EVF and the micro lenses on the 645Z sensor render smoother details and tones than those of the GFX50S.
 
Hi,

The term was already in widespread use at IBM when I first went to work there in 1981.

It was referring to using a word processor that showed you on the screen exactly what the laser printer would output. Before that, and for us New Hires, we got to use text editors where we programmed the document in a General Markup Language.

Anyway, the term had to have been around for years prior to 1981. Xerox sounds like a highly likely place for where it originated. ;)

And I didn't get away from film into digital until 1999, other than at work, as I couldn't afford one of those Kodak DSLRs until the used prices dropped thru the floor in 99...

Stan

--
Amateur Photographer
Professional Electronics Development Engineer
 
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I shot 4x5 Velvia 50,100f and E100 mostly. The others you list are irrelevant.
I will point out that you made unqualified statements about the superiority of 4x5 color film over GFX files with regard to color fidelity. To reject specific counter-evidence as “irrelevant” is moving the goalposts, it would seem.
My comment was to my experience which didn’t include most of Rich’s list of film suspects. Hence for me irrelevant. Nothing universal intended.
In low light and with proper filters color output was quite reasonable. One became accustomed to see as the film sees, and so my literary license with (wyswyg). one would adjust exposures and filters to compensate. Velvia 50 in low light is not as punchy or saturated but has a luminous quality which makes it ideal for brilliant quiet landscapes.

if you don’t know “worms” than you can’t have cleaned up any 4x5 film scans. This is the result of debris on the film when processed. It may be lint, hair, whatever.

Been shooting digital since 2010, D300,D800 And D850. The neutral profile and Pro RGB give me good results, but it’s not accurate. None of it is.
Now digital printing has come of age and has eclipsed the C and Chromira prints of the past, though some of my large durst lambda prints from 4x5 are still unmatched.

I think most who enjoy the GFX are enamored by the resolution and miss the color scheme.
What is your basis for this conclusion? There are some forum members who know a thing or two about color. And resolution.
When I look at GFX prints or online images, yes there are those which seem more neutral to me, but for the most part, the color is readily identifiable as Fuji, flat dimensionality with saturated color that seems slightly “off”. Colors that are not natural from what I see. Many examples, many photographers. The odd warm bias in overcast light is a pain to adjust each time. Part of it is, when I shoot several hundred images almost daily, I don’t want to be screwing around with getting the color correct with each image, profiles yes, but light changes a lot during the day and set profiles dont working consistently well across the board. To spend more than 15 minutes adjusting an image is simply not acceptable unless the image is extraordinary.
It’s not accurate either and Just not for me. Haven’t tried any non-GF lenses so maybe there is something to consider. The H series Hasselblad gave much better, more accurate color rendition than GFX. That is my experience.

Until one tries the alternatives, one rationalizes their choices as being the best etc. it may be hard for most to see past their emotional commitment to their decisions.
Again, there are forum members who use the GFX that have significant experience with many (most) of the notable cameras of the past 50+ years. Any attachment for these folks is due to something other than emotion.
All I can say on this is that there are many notable outdoor photo pros who switched to GFX from 4x5 film, purchasing the latest and greatest. But if you compare the results in same environment with similar subjects and lighting, the differences are stark and the GFX color gamut just doesn’t get there. The peculiar lens glare of many of the GF lens contributes to this. It might satisfy them, but like others have said, the better alternative is multiples more expensive. There are times where the IQ4 is indistinguishable from 8x10 film, and GFX is a far cry from the output of the PO product. If it were a lot closer I would not be voicing an opinion.
Objectively, I can’t get the GFX colors the way I see the landscape, I pass. Why is that a problem for anyone? There’s no right/wrong, it’s whatever works for you.

I recall a review poster some years ago of a well known European photographer who used a Leica Monochrom and 50 APO m with harsh flash. The poster cursed the photographer for not using the equipment the way “it had been intended”, in his view,, with a long grey tonal range. The photographer became famous and the poster was lost in all the noise.

Say what you will, but if I can’t get what I want out of a sensor, no reason to keep it.
Sound advice.
 
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Hi,

The term was already in widespread use at IBM when I first went to work there in 1981.

It was referring to using a word processor that showed you on the screen exactly what the laser printer would output. Before that, and for us New Hires, we got to use text editors where we programmed the document in a General Markup Language.

Anyway, the term had to have been around for years prior to 1981. Xerox sounds like a highly likely place for where it originated. ;)

And I didn't get away from film into digital until 1999, other than at work, as I couldn't afford one of those Kodak DSLRs until the used prices dropped thru the floor in 99...

Stan
 
Hi,

Hmmm. That may be it. Perhaps the Digital Look the OP refers to is the aliasing from the microlenses Fuji chose on their variant of the 50 MP sensor.

Stan
 
I shot 4x5 Velvia 50,100f and E100 mostly. The others you list are irrelevant.
I will point out that you made unqualified statements about the superiority of 4x5 color film over GFX files with regard to color fidelity. To reject specific counter-evidence as “irrelevant” is moving the goalposts, it would seem.
My comment was to my experience which didn’t include most of Rich’s list of film suspects. Hence for me irrelevant. Nothing universal intended.
In low light and with proper filters color output was quite reasonable. One became accustomed to see as the film sees, and so my literary license with (wyswyg). one would adjust exposures and filters to compensate. Velvia 50 in low light is not as punchy or saturated but has a luminous quality which makes it ideal for brilliant quiet landscapes.

if you don’t know “worms” than you can’t have cleaned up any 4x5 film scans. This is the result of debris on the film when processed. It may be lint, hair, whatever.

Been shooting digital since 2010, D300,D800 And D850. The neutral profile and Pro RGB give me good results, but it’s not accurate. None of it is.
Now digital printing has come of age and has eclipsed the C and Chromira prints of the past, though some of my large durst lambda prints from 4x5 are still unmatched.

I think most who enjoy the GFX are enamored by the resolution and miss the color scheme.
What is your basis for this conclusion? There are some forum members who know a thing or two about color. And resolution.
When I look at GFX prints or online images, yes there are those which seem more neutral to me, but for the most part, the color is readily identifiable as Fuji, flat dimensionality with saturated color that seems slightly “off”. Colors that are not natural from what I see. Many examples, many photographers. The odd warm bias in overcast light is a pain to adjust each time. Part of it is, when I shoot several hundred images almost daily, I don’t want to be screwing around with getting the color correct with each image, profiles yes, but light changes a lot during the day and set profiles dont working consistently well across the board. To spend more than 15 minutes adjusting an image is simply not acceptable unless the image is extraordinary.
It’s not accurate either and Just not for me. Haven’t tried any non-GF lenses so maybe there is something to consider. The H series Hasselblad gave much better, more accurate color rendition than GFX. That is my experience.

Until one tries the alternatives, one rationalizes their choices as being the best etc. it may be hard for most to see past their emotional commitment to their decisions.
Again, there are forum members who use the GFX that have significant experience with many (most) of the notable cameras of the past 50+ years. Any attachment for these folks is due to something other than emotion.
All I can say on this is that there are many notable outdoor photo pros who switched to GFX from 4x5 film, purchasing the latest and greatest. But if you compare the results in same environment with similar subjects and lighting, the differences are stark and the GFX color gamut just doesn’t get there. The peculiar lens glare of many of the GF lens contributes to this. It might satisfy them, but like others have said, the better alternative is multiples more expensive. There are times where the IQ4 is indistinguishable from 8x10 film, and GFX is a far cry from the output of the PO product. If it were a lot closer I would not be voicing an opinion.
Objectively, I can’t get the GFX colors the way I see the landscape, I pass. Why is that a problem for anyone? There’s no right/wrong, it’s whatever works for you.

I recall a review poster some years ago of a well known European photographer who used a Leica Monochrom and 50 APO m with harsh flash. The poster cursed the photographer for not using the equipment the way “it had been intended”, in his view,, with a long grey tonal range. The photographer became famous and the poster was lost in all the noise.

Say what you will, but if I can’t get what I want out of a sensor, no reason to keep it.
Sound advice.
Butting in a little late to the show. Ever since there has been digital and ever since there has been forums, we have posts somewhat similar to yours. They are expressions of personal opinion and taste somewhat couched as if they were expressions of fact.

What it always leads to is other people arguing furiously that this is not true. And counter punches from the OP.

The problem with this is that is is words without evidence. Where is the evidence? There could be a 150 posts in thread in the fullness of time without any useful outcome for anyone except perhaps the blowing off of steam.

What the thread needs to make it meaningful and something people can usefully contribute to is some actual data to discuss.

Why not show us some pictures from GFX and from something else along with some specific criticisms "the yellows in this jacket are shifted towards blah, blah. This is a characteristic of GFX you don't see in XYZ (see example image)"

Something of this nature that gives people something substantive to get their teeth into. For example, it may be that a certain colour profile fixes the issue (or not) but without specific complaints to address, this thread is going nowhere but flamebait.
 
When I look at GFX prints or online images, yes there are those which seem more neutral to me, but for the most part, the color is readily identifiable as Fuji, flat dimensionality with saturated color that seems slightly “off”. Colors that are not natural from what I see. Many examples, many photographers.
My first inclination, after years of examining this kind of claim (in photography, audio, food, etc.) is:

Blind test or it didn't happen.

Perceptual bias is a powerful force, even for those of us who know perceptual bias is a powerful force. The only way to know if it's skewing your opinion is to control for it in a blind trial.

This could be an interesting experiment for many of us. Images from multiple high quality cameras, downsampled to a size where resolution doesn't matter, stripped of metadata, cropped to the same aspect ratio. Out of 30 images, can you identify which ones are Fuji?

Someone here with science or math background could calculate the p-value of the results (the odds that you were randomly guessing).
 
The neutral profile and Pro RGB give me good results, but it’s not accurate.
The word "accurate" implies this is something that can be settled by measurement, e.g. densitometry of the various colours on a ColorChecker. If you're using that word subjectively, then please qualify it as such, or use another word.

Do you know whether you're a tetrochromat? You may be seeing colours that others don't, which may be part of the confusion.

Regards,
Sterling
--
Lens Grit
 
The neutral profile and Pro RGB give me good results, but it’s not accurate.
The word "accurate" implies this is something that can be settled by measurement, e.g. densitometry of the various colours on a ColorChecker. If you're using that word subjectively, then please qualify it as such, or use another word.
Do you know whether you're a tetrochromat? You may be seeing colours that others don't, which may be part of the confusion.
I don't think there are any human male tetrachromats.
 
I shot 4x5 Velvia 50,100f and E100 mostly. The others you list are irrelevant.
I will point out that you made unqualified statements about the superiority of 4x5 color film over GFX files with regard to color fidelity. To reject specific counter-evidence as “irrelevant” is moving the goalposts, it would seem.
My comment was to my experience which didn’t include most of Rich’s list of film suspects. Hence for me irrelevant. Nothing universal intended.
Not to beat a dead horse, but you made general statements about the fundamental superiority of film, without qualifiers. Perhaps you could restate your thesis - is it that Velvia 50, 100f and E100 have superior color, in your view, to GFX jpegs?
In low light and with proper filters color output was quite reasonable. One became accustomed to see as the film sees, and so my literary license with (wyswyg). one would adjust exposures and filters to compensate. Velvia 50 in low light is not as punchy or saturated but has a luminous quality which makes it ideal for brilliant quiet landscapes.

if you don’t know “worms” than you can’t have cleaned up any 4x5 film scans. This is the result of debris on the film when processed. It may be lint, hair, whatever.

Been shooting digital since 2010, D300,D800 And D850. The neutral profile and Pro RGB give me good results, but it’s not accurate. None of it is.
Now digital printing has come of age and has eclipsed the C and Chromira prints of the past, though some of my large durst lambda prints from 4x5 are still unmatched.

I think most who enjoy the GFX are enamored by the resolution and miss the color scheme.
What is your basis for this conclusion? There are some forum members who know a thing or two about color. And resolution.
When I look at GFX prints or online images, yes there are those which seem more neutral to me, but for the most part, the color is readily identifiable as Fuji, flat dimensionality with saturated color that seems slightly “off”. Colors that are not natural from what I see. Many examples, many photographers.
I have noted that peoples’ abilities to ascribe images to sources, a particular camera, say, generally disappear when the test is blind. In addition, as Jim said, if the image wasn’t a jpeg, the RAW devloper dominates, not the camera.
The odd warm bias in overcast light is a pain to adjust each time. Part of it is, when I shoot several hundred images almost daily, I don’t want to be screwing around with getting the color correct with each image, profiles yes, but light changes a lot during the day and set profiles dont working consistently well across the board. To spend more than 15 minutes adjusting an image is simply not acceptable unless the image is extraordinary.
It’s not accurate either and Just not for me. Haven’t tried any non-GF lenses so maybe there is something to consider. The H series Hasselblad gave much better, more accurate color rendition than GFX. That is my experience.

Until one tries the alternatives, one rationalizes their choices as being the best etc. it may be hard for most to see past their emotional commitment to their decisions.
Again, there are forum members who use the GFX that have significant experience with many (most) of the notable cameras of the past 50+ years. Any attachment for these folks is due to something other than emotion.
All I can say on this is that there are many notable outdoor photo pros who switched to GFX from 4x5 film, purchasing the latest and greatest.
Your characterization of these photographers as switching to GFX to get the “latest and greatest” seems inapt. Presumably any who switched did so for rational reasons. Jack Dykinga, a well known and well regarded landscape photographer switched from 4x5 film to digital in 2009. He said that he couldn’t tell the difference in the prints.
But if you compare the results in same environment with similar subjects and lighting, the differences are stark and the GFX color gamut just doesn’t get there. The peculiar lens glare of many of the GF lens contributes to this. It might satisfy them, but like others have said, the better alternative is multiples more expensive. There are times where the IQ4 is indistinguishable from 8x10 film, and GFX is a far cry from the output of the PO product. If it were a lot closer I would not be voicing an opinion.
Objectively, I can’t get the GFX colors the way I see the landscape, I pass. Why is that a problem for anyone? There’s no right/wrong, it’s whatever works for you.

I recall a review poster some years ago of a well known European photographer who used a Leica Monochrom and 50 APO m with harsh flash. The poster cursed the photographer for not using the equipment the way “it had been intended”, in his view,, with a long grey tonal range. The photographer became famous and the poster was lost in all the noise.

Say what you will, but if I can’t get what I want out of a sensor, no reason to keep it.
Sound advice.
 
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Your characterization of these photographers as switching to GFX to get the “latest and greatest” seems inapt. Presumably any who switched did so for rational reasons. Jack Dykinga, a well known and well regarded landscape photographer switched from 4x5 film to digital in 2009.
Charlie Cramer, too.

--
https://blog.kasson.com
 
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The neutral profile and Pro RGB give me good results, but it’s not accurate.
The word "accurate" implies this is something that can be settled by measurement, e.g. densitometry of the various colours on a ColorChecker. If you're using that word subjectively, then please qualify it as such, or use another word.

Do you know whether you're a tetrochromat? You may be seeing colours that others don't, which may be part of the confusion.
I don't think there are any human male tetrachromats.

--
https://blog.kasson.com
I don't think that is true. The estimates are around 15% of females and around 4% of males. It also depends on how you label it. Some males can see in UV, training the rods to see a bit in UV. I may fall into that class. I look at flowers and can see the UV pattern. But I might have trained myself from imaging many flowers.

Women may have an other cone between red and green. Some males may have a chimera there as well.
 
The neutral profile and Pro RGB give me good results, but it’s not accurate.
The word "accurate" implies this is something that can be settled by measurement, e.g. densitometry of the various colours on a ColorChecker. If you're using that word subjectively, then please qualify it as such, or use another word.

Do you know whether you're a tetrochromat? You may be seeing colours that others don't, which may be part of the confusion.
I don't think there are any human male tetrachromats.
I don't think that is true. The estimates are around 15% of females and around 4% of males.
Reference?
It also depends on how you label it. Some males can see in UV, training the rods to see a bit in UV. I may fall into that class. I look at flowers and can see the UV pattern. But I might have trained myself from imaging many flowers.
That's different from tetrachromacy.
Women may have an other cone between red and green. Some males may have a chimera there as well.
A fire-breathing female monster with a lion's head, a goat's body, and a serpent's tail?
 
Perhaps examine the output of Phase One IQ4 150mpx digital back. The images have a creamy tonality that present a smooth sense of acuity. This digital back is often the choice of top museums around the world to digitally copy fine art work. It would be an expensive solution.
 
I’m not knocking the talents of the brilliant chemical and industrial engineers at Kodak, Agfa, Fuji, and many other companies. It’s just that it is really hard to produce a film/processing — in the case of ‘chromes — and film/processing/paper/processing — in the case of color negative films and papers — system that produces accurate color. At SPIE meetings Ed Giorgianni, a Kodak engineer of some repute, used to give seminars on the details of the color processing of film-based systems. I would walk out shaking my head, amazed that film did as well as it did considering all the really tough chemical problems involved.

I once did an experiment where I took 25 different ‘chrome emulsions (this was in the 90s, when there were lots to choose from), shot a Macbeth chart, and read all the resultant patches with a spectrophotometer. The average CIEL*a*b* delta-Es were in double digits. By the way, the great thing about doing that experiment was smelling film canisters right after I opened them. I loved that smell, and miss it in the digital age.

The engineers working on film systems weren’t dummies. They knew they couldn’t make it accurate. There was a body of opinion that stated that you didn’t want it accurate even if you could do it. So they came up with many clever and artful inaccuracies that we call the film look. But it’s not one look, it’s a bunch of looks, and none of them are very accurate. Now we have digital systems, and we have fewer constrictions on what we can do. It’s still impossible to build practical systems for color photography with great accuracy, but what we have now is much better than with film.

My contention is that better color (upon capture) is more accurate color. We’d like color channel responses of the capture sensor to be as close to a 3×3 matrix multiply from the rho, gamma, beta responses of human cone cells. If accurate color is not pleasing color for the intended use, we can distort the color in post.
 
Perhaps examine the output of Phase One IQ4 150mpx digital back. The images have a creamy tonality that present a smooth sense of acuity. This digital back is often the choice of top museums around the world to digitally copy fine art work. It would be an expensive solution.
I have spent time with some IQ 4 150 files and, with respect, I have no idea what you mean by "creamy tonality that present a smooth sense of acuity".

This sounds like "intense organic luminosity", a made-up phrase I used to insert into this kind of discussion to see if anyone would bite. The only time I've seen it in actual use was in marketing material for hair shampoos.
 

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