My first paid hide - I feel conflicted on using the images

Hello

I wanted to avoid going to the pub saturday PM, so booked a hide sunday early. It was a bit of land someone had put some nicely placed trees and branches and such. As I arrived the owner then put food stealthily in various places to not be in shot, but be attractive to the birds.

As a result, I got some breathtakingly amazing photographs. The thing is, I feel conflicted. The idea of manufacturing an environment and using food to attract birds, felt quite easy, without effort and work from my side, and I also wondered if it leads to habituation of the species. I felt the goal was photographs and not necessarily an enjoyment of nature. I also was very uncomfortable with the suggested idea to use an air rifle on squirrels if they get in the way.... it didn't feel aligned with my values. But then I realised, if I were to have a large garden and take photographs in that - this is also manufactured and people do often use bird feed..so is that any different (I have an apartment so not an issue yet!). It feels different to me but not sure.

I also felt anybody in the world could get good shots there, it required no work just patience. Afterwards, I went to a local area and took some shots as I explored around. They were less well composed, not as good to the eye due to distance and such, but I felt much more accomplishment from my effort.

I'm unsure if to use the hide photos on my Flickr. If I did, i'd state it was a paid for hide, but still - I feel a bit uneasy. But...the photos are glorious it's almost a shame.

What do you guys feel? I feel this is my first and last food provided manufactured hide....

What I would like to explore, would be heading in to nature with a mobile hide and setting up like that, which is based on knowledge of subject and more natural to me, and takes me effort and patience. Though, I wonder if my presence there would inhibit the natural order in anyway.

Ad12 said:

Hello

I wanted to avoid going to the pub saturday PM, so booked a hide sunday early. It was a bit of land someone had put some nicely placed trees and branches and such. As I arrived the owner then put food stealthily in various places to not be in shot, but be attractive to the birds.

Click to expand...

I have used both public hides and booked paid for hides.

In the main the attractant be it food or water (reflection pool) should be the stimulus to visit and yes depending on the food frequency there can be an element of dependancy.....which IMO should be minimal possible.

Ad12 said:

As a result, I got some breathtakingly amazing photographs. The thing is, I feel conflicted. The idea of manufacturing an environment and using food to attract birds, felt quite easy, without effort and work from my side, and I also wondered if it leads to habituation of the species. I felt the goal was photographs and not necessarily an enjoyment of nature. I also was very uncomfortable with the suggested idea to use an air rifle on squirrels if they get in the way.... it didn't feel aligned with my values.

Click to expand...

If you are saying the land owner uses and recommended usage of (an available to you?) air gun. I would not have stayed there and likely/sadly lost my money.

Ad12 said:

. But then I realised, if I were to have a large garden and take photographs in that - this is also manufactured and people do often use bird feed..so is that any different (I have an apartment so not an issue yet!). It feels different to me but not sure.

Click to expand...

Human fashioned environments have influenced animal behaviour for centuries but IMO the damage done and in the case of bird numbers decline they need all the help with food sources they can get. A healthy song bird population will naturally draw in raptors and some semblance of balance will be kept.

Ad12 said:

I also felt anybody in the world could get good shots there, it required no work just patience. Afterwards, I went to a local area and took some shots as I explored around. They were less well composed, not as good to the eye due to distance and such, but I felt much more accomplishment from my effort.

Click to expand...

For sure, species study and field craft can clearly pay dividends

Ad12 said:

I'm unsure if to use the hide photos on my Flickr. If I did, i'd state it was a paid for hide, but still - I feel a bit uneasy. But...the photos are glorious it's almost a shame.

What do you guys feel? I feel this is my first and last food provided manufactured hide....

What I would like to explore, would be heading in to nature with a mobile hide and setting up like that, which is based on knowledge of subject and more natural to me, and takes me effort and patience. Though, I wonder if my presence there would inhibit the natural order in anyway.

Click to expand...

Fieldcraft again.

Box Brownie said:

Box Brownie said:

I also was very uncomfortable with the suggested idea to use an air rifle on squirrels if they get in the way.... it didn't feel aligned with my values.

Click to expand...

If you are saying the land owner uses and recommended usage of (an available to you?) air gun. I would not have stayed there and likely/sadly lost my money.

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly.

Take non said:

Box Brownie said:

Bread chef said:

I also was very uncomfortable with the suggested idea to use an air rifle on squirrels if they get in the way.... it didn't feel aligned with my values.

Click to expand...

If you are saying the land owner uses and recommended usage of (an available to you?) air gun. I would not have stayed there and likely/sadly lost my money.

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly.

Click to expand...

Me also. Being a photographer means appreciating nature as much as it means getting "the shot". People or exploiters need to learn to be respectful to creatures that have every bit as much right to being on the planet as we do.

Gary from Seattle said:

Take non said:

Box Brownie said:

Gary from Seattle said:

I also was very uncomfortable with the suggested idea to use an air rifle on squirrels if they get in the way.... it didn't feel aligned with my values.

Click to expand...

If you are saying the land owner uses and recommended usage of (an available to you?) air gun. I would not have stayed there and likely/sadly lost my money.

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly.

Click to expand...

Me also. Being a photographer means appreciating nature as much as it means getting "the shot". People or exploiters need to learn to be respectful to creatures that have every bit as much right to being on the planet as we do.

Click to expand...

Agree with all these things. I intend not to use a paid hide again. After waking at 5am, paying up front and a long drive i didnt leave, but wont return. Perhaps i should have left. A point for reflection.

Ad12 said:

Gary from Seattle said:

Take non said:

Box Brownie said:

Ad12 said:

I also was very uncomfortable with the suggested idea to use an air rifle on squirrels if they get in the way.... it didn't feel aligned with my values.

Click to expand...

If you are saying the land owner uses and recommended usage of (an available to you?) air gun. I would not have stayed there and likely/sadly lost my money.

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly.

Click to expand...

Me also. Being a photographer means appreciating nature as much as it means getting "the shot". People or exploiters need to learn to be respectful to creatures that have every bit as much right to being on the planet as we do.

Click to expand...

Agree with all these things. I intend not to use a paid hide again. After waking at 5am, paying up front and a long drive i didnt leave, but wont return. Perhaps i should have left. A point for reflection.

Click to expand...

IMO there are many (UK and EU) hides that are properly managed with the welfare of the wildlife being paramount.

The ethics of the owners is of utmost importance and IMO must be determined before considering going to them.

Where questionable practices are occurring and the knowledge of the location is in public domain e.g. wildlife watching/photography discussion forum (such as here!) then user reviews that are not under the control of the owner might be appropriate.......but perhaps presented in, as you have done, a YMMV manner?

PS in regard to the owners use of an airgun to kill squirrels, one has to ask what else might he be shooting at that location or elsewhere? IMO if you photograph wildlife then that is the only type of shooting i.e. if, as in some places, legal hunting is permitted the two practices are not compatible. NB no doubt some might say they enjoy both.......and the shooting keeps some species controlled. Well, if the wilder areas were still ecological balanced..... no shooting would be required and it is man that screwed it up!

Box Brownie said:

Ad12 said:

Gary from Seattle said:

Take non said:

Box Brownie said:

Box Brownie said:

I also was very uncomfortable with the suggested idea to use an air rifle on squirrels if they get in the way.... it didn't feel aligned with my values.

Click to expand...

If you are saying the land owner uses and recommended usage of (an available to you?) air gun. I would not have stayed there and likely/sadly lost my money.

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly.

Click to expand...

Me also. Being a photographer means appreciating nature as much as it means getting "the shot". People or exploiters need to learn to be respectful to creatures that have every bit as much right to being on the planet as we do.

Click to expand...

Agree with all these things. I intend not to use a paid hide again. After waking at 5am, paying up front and a long drive i didnt leave, but wont return. Perhaps i should have left. A point for reflection.

Click to expand...

IMO there are many (UK and EU) hides that are properly managed with the welfare of the wildlife being paramount.

The ethics of the owners is of utmost importance and IMO must be determined before considering going to them.

Where questionable practices are occurring and the knowledge of the location is in public domain e.g. wildlife watching/photography discussion forum (such as here!) then user reviews that are not under the control of the owner might be appropriate.......but perhaps presented in, as you have done, a YMMV manner?

PS in regard to the owners use of an airgun to kill squirrels, one has to ask what else might he be shooting at that location or elsewhere? IMO if you photograph wildlife then that is the only type of shooting i.e. if, as in some places, legal hunting is permitted the two practices are not compatible. NB no doubt some might say they enjoy both.......and the shooting keeps some species controlled. Well, if the wilder areas were still ecological balanced..... no shooting would be required and it is man that screwed it up!

Click to expand...

I just did a bit of a google actually. In the UK whilst undue suffering of animals is illegal, it is not in fact illegal to kill or trap and kill grey squirrels. I believe this is because they are an invasive species which have contributed to the decline of the native red squirrels.

I don't tend to kill insects, so I don't approve of the above approach, but it's certainly not against the law which is surprising. The air gun approach though I don't believe would class as not causing undue suffering so it's bad regardless, but I'm no expert. As I say, personally it's a tricky one. I hate the idea of killing things, but I do eat meat regularly and the species is invasive. Tricky!

I guess there are two aspects here troubling me. 1: Nature welfare, and 2: Photography enjoyment / lack of a challenge. I may look for very well thought out ecologically sound hides as you suggest and see how that looks, as I did enjoy the species I managed to see. Though I do feel it takes the challenge away from photographing wildlife and becomes an easy task.

Ad12 said:

I don't tend to kill insects, so I don't approve of the above approach, but it's certainly not against the law which is surprising. The air gun approach though I don't believe would class as not causing undue suffering so it's bad regardless, but I'm no expert. As I say, personally it's a tricky one. I hate the idea of killing things, but I do eat meat regularly and the species is invasive. Tricky!

Click to expand...

Well perhaps try to look at it this way, not a species more invasive (and abusive of all the other species to top it off) than we ourselve's.

What do people think about the fact food was places out for attracting the subjects? Bird seed.

Ad12 said:

What do people think about the fact food was places out for attracting the subjects? Bird seed.

Click to expand...

What birders usually say is that if you start feeding birds, don't stop.

Live and learn.

Since you did go there...and have nice images...I'd post them and mention about the place.

At times I visit local zoos for wildlife images.

Totally different experiece as when I am in the wild ...looking for any subject to photograph.

When I do visit..and post images....I mention that they are from a local zoo.

My thoughts

ANAYV

Ad12 said:

Box Brownie said:

Ad12 said:

Gary from Seattle said:

Take non said:

Box Brownie said:

Ad12 said:

I also was very uncomfortable with the suggested idea to use an air rifle on squirrels if they get in the way.... it didn't feel aligned with my values.

Click to expand...

If you are saying the land owner uses and recommended usage of (an available to you?) air gun. I would not have stayed there and likely/sadly lost my money.

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly.

Click to expand...

Me also. Being a photographer means appreciating nature as much as it means getting "the shot". People or exploiters need to learn to be respectful to creatures that have every bit as much right to being on the planet as we do.

Click to expand...

Agree with all these things. I intend not to use a paid hide again. After waking at 5am, paying up front and a long drive i didnt leave, but wont return. Perhaps i should have left. A point for reflection.

Click to expand...

IMO there are many (UK and EU) hides that are properly managed with the welfare of the wildlife being paramount.

The ethics of the owners is of utmost importance and IMO must be determined before considering going to them.

Where questionable practices are occurring and the knowledge of the location is in public domain e.g. wildlife watching/photography discussion forum (such as here!) then user reviews that are not under the control of the owner might be appropriate.......but perhaps presented in, as you have done, a YMMV manner?

PS in regard to the owners use of an airgun to kill squirrels, one has to ask what else might he be shooting at that location or elsewhere? IMO if you photograph wildlife then that is the only type of shooting i.e. if, as in some places, legal hunting is permitted the two practices are not compatible. NB no doubt some might say they enjoy both.......and the shooting keeps some species controlled. Well, if the wilder areas were still ecological balanced..... no shooting would be required and it is man that screwed it up!

Click to expand...

I just did a bit of a google actually. In the UK whilst undue suffering of animals is illegal, it is not in fact illegal to kill or trap and kill grey squirrels. I believe this is because they are an invasive species which have contributed to the decline of the native red squirrels.

I don't tend to kill insects, so I don't approve of the above approach, but it's certainly not against the law which is surprising. The air gun approach though I don't believe would class as not causing undue suffering so it's bad regardless, but I'm no expert. As I say, personally it's a tricky one. I hate the idea of killing things, but I do eat meat regularly and the species is invasive. Tricky!

I guess there are two aspects here troubling me. 1: Nature welfare, and 2: Photography enjoyment / lack of a challenge. I may look for very well thought out ecologically sound hides as you suggest and see how that looks, as I did enjoy the species I managed to see. Though I do feel it takes the challenge away from photographing wildlife and becomes an easy task.

Click to expand...

Yes, the Grey is an invasive species which IIRC was introduced from the USA by the Victorians for hunting. Yet another problem from man's poorly considered actions.

The fact that it is not illegal to trap/kill does not mean that 'one' should! The disturbing aspect is that the owner is selling wildlife hide usage

PS talking of invasive species ~ Mink, this one IMO needs eradication in the UK and AFAIK is a "notifiable species".......it is a major threat predator of our wonderful Water Vole.

When people post hide photos do they usually specify if food was used? I feel a bit ashamed of that so may not post the images. But theyre so good! Ill think on it. I may be overcomplicating my life haha

Why feel conflicted? Most of the amazing wildlife photos you see by top professionals are taken in hides. This includes things like wolves, lions, tigers, etc.

And I certainly would not patronize a facility that kills certain animals just to benefit photographers to get shots of animals they want. I feed birds which includes the invasive European Starling and House Sparrow. I don't particularly enjoy them, but they are part of the environment now. But, they do provide food for our local Cooper's Hawks.

butterflyman said:

Why feel conflicted? Most of the amazing wildlife photos you see by top professionals are taken in hides. This includes things like wolves, lions, tigers, etc.

And I certainly would not patronize a facility that kills certain animals just to benefit photographers to get shots of animals they want. I feed birds which includes the invasive European Starling and House Sparrow. I don't particularly enjoy them, but they are part of the environment now. But, they do provide food for our local Cooper's Hawks.

Click to expand...

So the bird feed aspect doesnt seem to be seen as too unethical i can see broadly.

Ad12 said:

When people post hide photos do they usually specify if food was used? I feel a bit ashamed of that so may not post the images. But theyre so good! Ill think on it. I may be overcomplicating my life haha

Click to expand...

Using food to attract wildlife is baiting, which I have never done and never plan to do. This is not in the best interests of the animal - it is only done so we humans can get a good photograph.

Is it really WILDLIFE photography when you're in a blind positioned so you have an unnaturally clean background? Then you're attracting the wildlife by putting food out that wouldn't naturally be there? And blasting the undesirable wildlife (squirrels) with an air gun because they might mess up the photos?

IMO, calling that wildlife photography is a disservice to the rest of us. I think the Fish and Game Dept. here is the US would take a very dim view of that kind of practice.

If you want to post the photos, go ahead, but make clear the circumstances in which you got the shots. And never go back to that kind of place again.

Krusty79 said:

Ad12 said:

When people post hide photos do they usually specify if food was used? I feel a bit ashamed of that so may not post the images. But theyre so good! Ill think on it. I may be overcomplicating my life haha

Click to expand...

Using food to attract wildlife is baiting, which I have never done and never plan to do. This is not in the best interests of the animal - it is only done so we humans can get a good photograph.

Is it really WILDLIFE photography when you're in a blind positioned so you have an unnaturally clean background? Then you're attracting the wildlife by putting food out that wouldn't naturally be there? And blasting the undesirable wildlife (squirrels) with an air gun because they might mess up the photos?

IMO, calling that wildlife photography is a disservice to the rest of us. I think the Fish and Game Dept. here is the US would take a very dim view of that kind of practice.

If you want to post the photos, go ahead, but make clear the circumstances in which you got the shots. And never go back to that kind of place again.

Click to expand...

Its the first time i’ve booked a hide. I usually walk about outside and see what I see. I find the latter approach rewarding. The guy has an r6 mkii and great photos, but it makes me feel uneasy - such people want photos but it’s not appreciative of nature I feel. I won’t book a hide again i think. It makes me feel uneasy. I want to see natural creatures in their natural habitat. I was not expecting an ethical conundrum but here it lies.

Ad12 said:

Hello

I wanted to avoid going to the pub saturday PM, so booked a hide sunday early. It was a bit of land someone had put some nicely placed trees and branches and such. As I arrived the owner then put food stealthily in various places to not be in shot, but be attractive to the birds.

Click to expand...

Due to baiting in some form or another. The rest are mostly from Park type areas where the Birds tend to be more friendly for photos. By far, the biggest threat to birds is likely, STRAY Cats.

I guess it takes courage to come forth with such information and it also takes courage speaking out against it. Feeling conflicted about it says a whole lot allready in light of selfreflection but also in light of conscience.

Someone I met some time ago told me a personal story about once setting up a baiting table in his backyard. He even provided for a small bathing facility. He enjoyed it only very briefly as cats and sparrow hawks killed a lot of birds during some brief period so he dismantled it soon after construction feeling guilty about it. But not all people are like that as I'm sure for some others atleast the killing by bird of prey might have been nothing less than an convenient byproduct.

Re. feeding birds locally, say in your garden, RSPB or another org. stated that birds will still take 85-90% of their food from the food chain or whatever regardless of the seeds you might put out. I feed the jackdaws and sparrows here every few days, with either seeds or cashews that might be leftover from a stir fry. It's the wood pigeons I get annoyed at as one will eat all of what I put out given a chance. But hey, that's life. Re. hides, there's a place in mid-Wales where you can stay over for a few days and use the hide, all on private land. I think I learnt about it from A Hewitt over on the Fuji pages, but don't quote me on that. I don't expect they shoot squirrels there.

Finally, interesting that you recognise the dichotomy of being a nature lover and photographer and find yourself wrestling about hides and (completely understandably) that feller's attitude to squirrels whilst eating meat yourself. I went vegan 7yrs back. Consider it.

Edited for spelling and to add - public hides are fun, and you meet all sorts there. Seeds are always left out at these places, perches are in place too. It's a great way for kids to learn about nature and a safe space for those who wish to photograph fauna. A private hide isn't much different, and as some others have said above, just be honest about where you took the photos when you post them, if you do post them at all. I'm in a similar place to you having just recently visited Slimbridge for the first time. I was expecting something more akin to an RSPB site but what I found was effectively a zoo. I have this far only shared photos of rooks and jackdaws that populate the site as they are free to come and go. I have some images of flamingos that are quite nice but have the same dilemma as you and I'll probably never share them. I do have a nice duck shot though, which I'll probably put out there. I expect they can move about a bit.