Ephemeris
Veteran Member
The element im less sure about is what would be the most suitable machine for this system? Is it the same as the competition or subtly different?
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Noise Removal - total time
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Digital Nigel
Forum Pro
All the AI NR tools make heavy use of the GPU, but the new LR Denoise AI tool is apparently much slower than the DxO and Topaz AI NR tools. But with all of them, a powerful modern GPU provides a dramatic improvement in performance.
Other factors like CPU and disk speeds are comparatively unimportant. Of course, there are also differences between Apple silicon and PC hardware.
Ephemeris
Veteran Member
Thanks Nigel.
The typical difference I am seeing between LR and Topaz AI is a factor of around 15 on my laptop.
A few reasons why DxO isn't a tool we use but speed Vs what was DeNoise AI being one.
I had pondered if the ideal machine isn't ideal for all systems.
The task is heavily reliant on GPU, and is optimised for GPU.
Mac user
The current Adobe denoise AI doesn’t leverage the M1/M2 ANE (Apple Neural Engine) once they resolve that, there should be some interesting performance gains (Source : https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic-discussions/denoise-ai-in-12-3/m-p/13739400)
In the interim, the timing has been “perfect”, my 2018 Apple laptop is about to become “vintage” and out of support (definition of vintage https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT2...considered vintage when,less than 7 years ago.)
I have decided to purchase a new apple device with the most amount of GPU cores while trying to keep the price down. This will hopefully give me the “best” experience possible, and buy me some headroom for the future.
Recently i have purchased a macbook M1 Max with 32core GPU for $3500 AUD (new). That seemed the most value from a price vs performance perspective.
Output
I am finding threads like these quite informative, but like most “ordinary folks” the differences are subtle, they are all much better than the original raw files that is produced by a single magic click of a button.
As always it’s never going to be perfect for every single image, but if it’s mostly good most of the time that’s great.. But we need abit of reality check.. you can’t expect clean / detailed results from incredibly high iso (relative to the camera). The basics still apply, always “try” to shoot at the lowest iso where possible.
Processing time
The additional processing time for LRc compared to it’s peers for denoise isn’t much of a deal for me (I am a enthusiast), I just run denoise and do other “life” things while it happens. It’s just another step that hopefully can be eradicated in future releases.
Digital Nigel
Forum Pro
I find that DeNoise AI is about the same speed as DeepPRIME, but XD takes about twice as long on my machine. But the relative speeds probably depend on the graphics card, as XD seems to be optimised for the more recent cards. With low to middling ISO images, image quality is similar, but with really high ISOs (or very low light), XD is much more effective than DeNoise or DeepPRIME, but also risks artefacts unless you turn down the noise model. That's why I reserve its use for the noisiest images.
It all does seem to depend on the GPU. One that's faster with one of these will also be faster with the others, but of course LR will probably be the slowest in each case.
Ephemeris
Veteran Member
Is that link correct Raymond? I couldn't get it to open.
I had been thinking if we may see some of this to be included in a camera or if some challenges are energy related. That is, if we had some ASIC like device do this in camera what would the energy defecit be. Also at what stage may we have some mild application of what Adobe have created turned in all the time (when can we process it fast enough).
Also, is a route available for maybe a 4/3 like camera to offload this to the cloud to provide some benefits to the user rather than investing in a full frame set up.
Outside of my work my 'need' for these tools is much reduced - nice to have tho.
I really need to spend a bit of money in a personal machine. I can't really afford vast amounts and it would be Windows based (or not Apple). Perhaps an Nvidia 3060 or even a bit lower down the scale would be a route for me, and likely as a second hand machine.
One concern of those machines (Vs what your describe from Apple) is the huge amount of energy they require. With our fuel costs in the UK I don't really want a machine that's using a kw. A machine that I can afford, offer speed improvements and save some energy over my aging 7 year old Xeon Dell laptop would be great. I could of course be wanting a bit to much.
We have so much choice for processing images now - really good news.
Just got to remove the “)” at the end ;-(
Re: Denoise AI in 12.3
There are GPUs and then there are GPUs with cores dedicated to Machine Learning / AI tasks. For example, Tensor cores on more recent NVidia GPU cards and Neural Engine on Aple Silicon Macs. The ML / AI cores make a huge difference to the time taken for any of the AI based tasks in LrC / LrD and...
Yes, electricity prices are high and will be going higher.
On my end, I am constrained as I need to work on a laptop, I don’t have a dedicated desk, as I am typically moving around in the house etc.
I can’t really comment much about pc power consumption, but i do know there have been comparisons made between Apple and Pc.
Here - https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performance-review/3
Tbh i didn’t look into it, as it wasn’t an option.
But I am aware that the apple silicon performs the same on battery vs plugged in, this is a departure from what I have been accustomed to (i.e plugged in to a power source for maximum performance. Performance significantly degrades when using battery)
That is good. Great for the consumer.
sybersitizen
Forum Pro
You (and anyone who is interested in these things) should appreciate this discussion:Sure, there is a contribution from electronics (it is indeed important in cases of extremely low light). But the most significant contribution (in case we do see the image created by light) is known as photon noise. The photon noise is scaled as square root (sqrt) of number of photons participated in creating the image . More photons- more noise (sqrt
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4710831
Last edited:
Serguei Palto
Senior Member
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Thanks, Sybersitizen.You (and anyone who is interested in these things) should appreciate this discussion:Sure, there is a contribution from electronics (it is indeed important in cases of extremely low light). But the most significant contribution (in case we do see the image created by light) is known as photon noise. The photon noise is scaled as square root (sqrt) of number of photons participated in creating the image . More photons
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4710831
Ephemeris
Veteran Member
'You should appreciate this' - what on earth is wrong with you? Is this an order, demand, law? You interaction has been really poor fella. I don't believe within the spirit or direction of this website.You (and anyone who is interested in these things) should appreciate this discussion:Sure, there is a contribution from electronics (it is indeed important in cases of extremely low light). But the most significant contribution (in case we do see the image created by light) is known as photon noise. The photon noise is scaled as square root (sqrt) of number of photons participated in creating the image . More photons
You should/shall appreciate this - I use these words simply because it's possibly how you function.
The art of a heartfelt apology - Harvard Health
If you have upset someone, the best way to rectify the situation is by making a sincere, heartfelt apology. But just saying the words isn't quite enough: for an apology to be effective, it h...
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Back being human. What is confined here (it can be found elsewhere) is relavant to my discussion. What you chose to remove from my text is and was also relavant.
Serguei Palto
Senior Member
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Ok!
I am talking with a "chief engineer...".
To make sure that you indeed not the bot, please answer a simple question I ask often my PhD students. The question is very simple and it is as follows.
The first picture below is just a signal from a generator. Sure, as " a chief engineer...", you should know what is the waveform shown below.
Fig.1
The next step we add the noise, Fig.2. BTW, it can be just the light intensity with a DC cut off (hope you understand what I am talking about).
So, we have a problem to recover the original signal shown in Fig.1 from noisy signal in Fig.2.
Fig.2.
The next step is denoising result in Fig.3. And my question to You is as follows.
What kind of a filter is applyed to the noisy signal shown in Fig.2 in order to get the result shown in Figure 3.
Please confirm your education, in order to make possible the further conversation.
Fig.3.
Ephemeris
Veteran Member
The obnoxiousness is gaining momentum when it already was getting to a position of terribleness.Ok!
I am talking with a "chief engineer...".
To make sure that you indeed not the bot, please answer a simple question I ask often my PhD students. The question is very simple and it is as follows.
The first picture below is just a signal from a generator. Sure, as " a chief engineer...", you should know what is the waveform shown below.
Fig.1
The next step we add the noise, Fig.2. BTW, it can be just the light intensity with a DC cut off (hope you understand what I am talking about).
So, we have a problem to recover the original signal shown in Fig.1 from noisy signal in Fig.2.
Fig.2.
The next step is denoising result in Fig.3. And my question to You is as follows.
What kind of a filter is applyed to the noisy signal shown in Fig.2 in order to get the result shown in Figure 3.
Please confirm your education, in order to make possible the further conversation.
Fig.3.
I am talking with a "chief engineer...". < That doesn't entirely make sense.
To make sure that you indeed not the bot, please answer a simple question I ask often my PhD students. The question is very simple and it is as follows.
However your logic is peculiar. You wish me to answer some questions you set to your PhD students (we have no clue as to why and what they study and if it's related).
But if we entertain your pantomime at best does this not confirm I could actually potentially be one of your students?
System engineering exam = not quite ready just yet.
You appear to be trying to battle with one that cannot be won and is very misplaced.
Serguei Palto
Senior Member
- Messages
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Thus, you are the botThe obnoxiousness is gaining momentum when it already was getting to a position of terribleness.Ok!
I am talking with a "chief engineer...".
To make sure that you indeed not the bot, please answer a simple question I ask often my PhD students. The question is very simple and it is as follows.
The first picture below is just a signal from a generator. Sure, as " a chief engineer...", you should know what is the waveform shown below.
Fig.1
The next step we add the noise, Fig.2. BTW, it can be just the light intensity with a DC cut off (hope you understand what I am talking about).
So, we have a problem to recover the original signal shown in Fig.1 from noisy signal in Fig.2.
Fig.2.
The next step is denoising result in Fig.3. And my question to You is as follows.
What kind of a filter is applyed to the noisy signal shown in Fig.2 in order to get the result shown in Figure 3.
Please confirm your education, in order to make possible the further conversation.
Fig.3.
I am talking with a "chief engineer...". < That doesn't entirely make sense.
To make sure that you indeed not the bot, please answer a simple question I ask often my PhD students. The question is very simple and it is as follows.
However your logic is peculiar. You wish me to answer some questions you set to your PhD students (we have no clue as to why and what they study and if it's related).
But if we entertain your pantomime at best does this not confirm I could actually potentially be one of your students?
System engineering exam = not quite ready just yet.
You appear to be trying to battle with one that cannot be won and is very misplaced.
Ephemeris
Veteran Member
Please cease Sergei it's not good for the soul. I've never heard of the Universe being described as a bot but if it cheers your up then help yourself.Thus, you are the botThe obnoxiousness is gaining momentum when it already was getting to a position of terribleness.Ok!
I am talking with a "chief engineer...".
To make sure that you indeed not the bot, please answer a simple question I ask often my PhD students. The question is very simple and it is as follows.
The first picture below is just a signal from a generator. Sure, as " a chief engineer...", you should know what is the waveform shown below.
Fig.1
The next step we add the noise, Fig.2. BTW, it can be just the light intensity with a DC cut off (hope you understand what I am talking about).
So, we have a problem to recover the original signal shown in Fig.1 from noisy signal in Fig.2.
Fig.2.
The next step is denoising result in Fig.3. And my question to You is as follows.
What kind of a filter is applyed to the noisy signal shown in Fig.2 in order to get the result shown in Figure 3.
Please confirm your education, in order to make possible the further conversation.
Fig.3.
I am talking with a "chief engineer...". < That doesn't entirely make sense.
To make sure that you indeed not the bot, please answer a simple question I ask often my PhD students. The question is very simple and it is as follows.
However your logic is peculiar. You wish me to answer some questions you set to your PhD students (we have no clue as to why and what they study and if it's related).
But if we entertain your pantomime at best does this not confirm I could actually potentially be one of your students?
System engineering exam = not quite ready just yet.
You appear to be trying to battle with one that cannot be won and is very misplaced.
Offending people I think should be avoided.
Take care.
Ephemeris
Veteran Member
This is the sort of thing I'm looking at. If I can get something a little less costly great but I think it would be a big improvement in what I have
Serguei Palto
Senior Member
- Messages
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Sure. It was not the case you mentioned. You wanted to know...You got the answer.Please cease Sergei it's not good for the soul. I've never heard of the Universe being described as a bot but if it cheers your up then help yourself.Thus, you are the botThe obnoxiousness is gaining momentum when it already was getting to a position of terribleness.Ok!
I am talking with a "chief engineer...".
To make sure that you indeed not the bot, please answer a simple question I ask often my PhD students. The question is very simple and it is as follows.
The first picture below is just a signal from a generator. Sure, as " a chief engineer...", you should know what is the waveform shown below.
Fig.1
The next step we add the noise, Fig.2. BTW, it can be just the light intensity with a DC cut off (hope you understand what I am talking about).
So, we have a problem to recover the original signal shown in Fig.1 from noisy signal in Fig.2.
Fig.2.
The next step is denoising result in Fig.3. And my question to You is as follows.
What kind of a filter is applyed to the noisy signal shown in Fig.2 in order to get the result shown in Figure 3.
Please confirm your education, in order to make possible the further conversation.
Fig.3.
I am talking with a "chief engineer...". < That doesn't entirely make sense.
To make sure that you indeed not the bot, please answer a simple question I ask often my PhD students. The question is very simple and it is as follows.
However your logic is peculiar. You wish me to answer some questions you set to your PhD students (we have no clue as to why and what they study and if it's related).
But if we entertain your pantomime at best does this not confirm I could actually potentially be one of your students?
System engineering exam = not quite ready just yet.
You appear to be trying to battle with one that cannot be won and is very misplaced.
Offending people I think should be avoided.
Take care.
Ephemeris
Veteran Member
Pleased cease Sergey - that's what I asked for!Sure. It was not the case you mentioned. You wanted to know...You got the answer.Please cease Sergei it's not good for the soul. I've never heard of the Universe being described as a bot but if it cheers your up then help yourself.Thus, you are the botThe obnoxiousness is gaining momentum when it already was getting to a position of terribleness.Ok!
I am talking with a "chief engineer...".
To make sure that you indeed not the bot, please answer a simple question I ask often my PhD students. The question is very simple and it is as follows.
The first picture below is just a signal from a generator. Sure, as " a chief engineer...", you should know what is the waveform shown below.
Fig.1
The next step we add the noise, Fig.2. BTW, it can be just the light intensity with a DC cut off (hope you understand what I am talking about).
So, we have a problem to recover the original signal shown in Fig.1 from noisy signal in Fig.2.
Fig.2.
The next step is denoising result in Fig.3. And my question to You is as follows.
What kind of a filter is applyed to the noisy signal shown in Fig.2 in order to get the result shown in Figure 3.
Please confirm your education, in order to make possible the further conversation.
Fig.3.
I am talking with a "chief engineer...". < That doesn't entirely make sense.
To make sure that you indeed not the bot, please answer a simple question I ask often my PhD students. The question is very simple and it is as follows.
However your logic is peculiar. You wish me to answer some questions you set to your PhD students (we have no clue as to why and what they study and if it's related).
But if we entertain your pantomime at best does this not confirm I could actually potentially be one of your students?
System engineering exam = not quite ready just yet.
You appear to be trying to battle with one that cannot be won and is very misplaced.
Offending people I think should be avoided.
Take care.
Ephemeris
Veteran Member
I've seen some refurb Dells with an A3000 in and others with the 3090. Not sure which may be the best direction.
Eric Chan, one of the longtime Adobe software engineers, wrote this article about the new Denoise AI:
Denoise demystified
https://blog.adobe.com/en/publish/2023/04/18/denoise-demystified
Finally, we built our machine learning models to take full advantage of the latest platform technologies, including NVIDIA’s TensorCores and the Apple Neural Engine. Using these technologies enables our models to run faster on modern hardware.
But, then Ian Lyon wrote:
https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic-discussions/denoise-ai-in-12-3/m-p/13739400
I need to correct myself as the information provided re Denoise using the Neural Engine is not correct. Currently, the Apple Neural Engine found in M1/M2 silicon Macs is not used by Denoise. It's expected that performance will be even better when Denoise does use the Apple Neural Engine.
There is no change to above comments regarding the use of Tensor cores in NVidia cards. That is, Tensor cores are used by Denoise.
Apparently, an issue on Apple side means that the Neural Engine is not used by Adobe Denoise. When the issue is addressed, then Adobe Denoise is ready to take advantage of the Neural Engine.
And then Rikk Flohr confirmed it:
@Ian Lyons information is correct regarding the Neural Engine on Apple devices
Rikk Flohr - Customer Advocacy: Adobe Photography Products
I wonder if there will be a Ventura update such as 13.3.2 that will fix the problem?
This raises the question about whether DXO and Topaz are actually able to use the Neural Engine or not? If they are then it seems like this is more an Adobe problem than an Apple problem, doesn't it? Maybe a LrC 12.3.1 is needed?
If this problem is fixed then I will rerun the 45mp Canon R5 file above. Maybe the time will be much faster than 34 seconds when using the Neural Engine.
Digital Nigel
Forum Pro
DxO certainly does:
DxO DeepPrime leverages the native core ML software and the M1/M2 hardware GPU and uses Apple neural engine acceleration.
https://support.dxo.com/hc/en-us/articles/4432757357073-DeepPRIME-DeepPRIME-XD-hardware-acceleration
It seems so.
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