Approach to buying new Windows desktop?

If capable, I recommend building a PC to choose the best components for you and benefit from the sometimes long warranty on each component.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Last but not least, any thought on buying the HDD with it from Dell, versus getting a better-rated enterprise drive and installing it myself?

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Well, I've not read all the responses but there seems to be much sensible advice in those I did look at. I think having an i7 core machine is probably needed and SSD but 256gb is too small. I have 512gb NVMe which (so far) is enough. I like tower PCs - so much easier to modify. Mine is a 'refurbished' HP Z240. You seem more than capable enough to install additional drives - I have added 2 fast mechanical HDDs of respectively 1tb and 2tb, both cloned (with Macrium) and both made bootable should the SDD fail. I obtained these (new) on Ebay. I also have a second 512gb NVMe, also made bootable, in a drive caddy interfacing via USB-3.

I don't agree with the notion that CD/DVDs are finished so for me an optical read/write drive is essential though I don't need Blu-ray. I have 16gb RAM in my machine and it is enough but I am thinking of increasing it to 32gb.

I do a lot of graphics work on my PC which has only integrated graphics (with two Display ports). Performance for me is fine - but I'm not into gaming and not really into video either.

I am on and plan to remain on Windows 64bit 10 Pro.

Good luck with your plans!

NAwlins Contrarian said:

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Regarding your SSD, make sure you get an M.2 NVMe SSD, and not a SATA one. There is a huge speed difference between the two. Since the difference is cost between a 256GB and a 500 GB SSD is only about $20, going for the larger SSD is a no brainer.

Click to expand...

Thanks. Looking at the options on one model that I'm currently considering, copying Dell's descriptions, it looks like they're all M.2 NVMe (and there are only two bottom-end options that don't say NVMe, and I'm not considering either because the capacity is too low):

single-drive options--to which I'm probably add a 2+ TB HDD myself

512 GB, M.2, PCIe NVMe

1 TB, M.2, PCIe NVMe, SSD (+$100)

dual-drive options

512GB NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD (Boot) + 2TB 7200RPM SATA 6Gb/s (+$80)

1TB M.2 PCIe NVME SSD (Boot) + 2TB SATA 7200RPM HDD (+$180)

Last but not least, any thought on buying the HDD with it from Dell, versus getting a better-rated enterprise drive and installing it myself?

Click to expand...

What other software are you running?

When you say 10 bit do you mean display output or do you mean editing 10 bit video?

No point getting a 2TB drive these days. Check how much more you'd pay for something larger but price per TB is likely higher on that 2.

Likewise with the small NVME. You won't pay much more for a bigger one that'll likely last you the life of the machine.

If you don't mind installing the HDD and NVME $180 will likely get you both a better quality NVME and HDD from Amazon or somebody and you can figure out a use for the parts already in the machine. External dock for example. USB C mount for the NVME.

Are you sure it needs to be a Dell? Or any other big box maker?

Okay this is a different model but it'll give you something to think about


If you're set on Dell before ordering ANYTHING go to the Dell support site and download the repair documents. Read the sections on removing and installing parts.

One worry is systems might not ship with support for extra parts. It might be something simple like a missing standard cable. It might be a non standard bracket you need to order from Dell.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Thanks so much--lots of helpful info to consider.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

NAwlins Contrarian said:

I really want an optical drive. Any reason not to remove the Blu Ray drive that I installed in the current computer and install it in the new one?

Click to expand...

Does the Dell desktop you're considering have a 5-1/4" drive bay to fit it?

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It is at least an option. I'd probably need an XPS to get it; with the Inspiron models it may not even be possible. What's unclear to me is whether the option includes a basic CD / DVD drive, or merely the door behind which to mount one--need to figure that out.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

One concern I'd have for a basic (no graphics card) OEM desktop is the capacity and wiring of the power supply being suitable to power an aftermarket graphics card.

Before making any upgrades to any Dell, (or, for that matter, even just buying one) I suggest going to that model's support webpage and downloading the service manual to understand its internal setup and upgrade capacities.

Click to expand...

Good point. They offer 460W and 750W options, the latter $50 more--probably a good investment for someone in my position?

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If you plan to ever install a discrete GPU (IMO almost required for adequate performance from some "AI-type" software) I'd call that upgrade a requirement.

I see that many here consider ordering a larger SSD a necessity--they may be right, but what I remember from my XPS 15 9570 is that what Dell charged at that time for a SSD and memory upgrade was more than the total cost of new parts from a third-party seller! I bought the cheapest version and upgraded it myself for $ savings.

I suggest you check today's upgrade price structure and do whatever saves you money.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Good point. They offer 460W and 750W options, the latter $50 more--probably a good investment for someone in my position?

Click to expand...

The smaller power supply would not support a later upgrade to a decent powered GPU, so do go for the 750W PSU.

In order to future-proof your new system:

1. Remember you can't typically unplug the CPU and replace it with a faster one. A CPU change will likely require a motherboard and RAM upgrade too. So select a CPU that's going to meet your future needs.

2. Don't undersize the PSU. 750 watts sounds about right for your situation. Upgrading the PSU later (e.g. to support a larger GPU) is a PITA.

3. I strongly support the suggestion to use a 1TB NVMe SSD for the system disk. You can add a multi-TB hard drive for data. However, you could go with a SSD for data too if you're in the 1-4 TB range. With careful shopping cost might be around $60/TB.

4. Don't over-spec the GPU since you're not a gamer. The high end GPU's are really fast but highly optimized for gaming and it's extremely unlikely you will realize the potential. Taking care of the PSU from day one means that an upgrade brought on by a change in your future needs will be quite painless.

5. You don't have any unusual/specialized requirements and the Dell range should fit very nicely, IMO. I've had very good luck with their mid-high end systems over the years. But do make sure that you take advantage of the frequent promotions. If budget is really tight, you might look at their factory refurbs too.

BobKnDP said:

BobKnDP said:

Thanks everyone for the responses so far--they contain a lot of helpful information.

To clarify something, as long as I can run modern software like the Topaz AI programs, I'm not too worried about their speed. I am used to having DxO take 30 seconds or longer process with DeepPrime and export. My volume is typically pretty low.

Also, one big question is what hardware I need to support future 10-bit video and/or HDR.

As for the multiple people suggesting RTX 3060--those options add $250 or $350 to the price--I really doubt I need that, but maybe I'm showing my ignorance.

Click to expand...

I'm having trouble finding a link, but I believe that Intel UHD 770 does UHD (3840X2160) with HDR at 60Hz. It probably can do better than that, if you use the DisplayPort. (HDMI 2.0 is limited to 4k resolution in HDR at 60Hz, and uses chroma subsampling to get that.)

Click to expand...

Yes, the Intel 730 and Intel 770 both report something like maximum resolution of true 4K, i.e., 4096 x 2160, at 60 Hz, dependent on the output.

BobKnDP said:

Note that 10bit color isn't the same as HDR. Some monitors support 10 bit but not HDR.

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Right. What I don't see is any explanation of how to determine potential support in the hardware specifications.

BobKnDP said:

I believe that the Topaz AI software is more GPU dependent.

This spreadsheet isn't as useful as I'd like, but you may find it worth a look. The "Egypt" example took about two minutes with a UHD 770. The RTX 3060, roughly 10 seconds. (More like 5 seconds with an RTX 4090. DeepPrime XD is slower.)

As regards the extra for the discrete GPU, what's the value of your time?

Click to expand...

Not that much. These days often I do final exports from DxO while web-surfing. I pop into DxO, tell it to export, pop into the browser, and then check back with DxO a bit later. As long as I can run the software and it doesn't take an hour per image or something like that, it's really not a problem.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

These days often I do final exports from DxO while web-surfing. I pop into DxO, tell it to export, pop into the browser, and then check back with DxO a bit later. As long as I can run the software and it doesn't take an hour per image or something like that, it's really not a problem.

Click to expand...

What is it about your photography style or postprocessing methodology that demands so much use of DxO. I am not being argumentative or contrarian but really want to know. I've never used it and would certainly not let it dictate my hardware platform.

David Lal said:

David Lal said:

These days often I do final exports from DxO while web-surfing. I pop into DxO, tell it to export, pop into the browser, and then check back with DxO a bit later. As long as I can run the software and it doesn't take an hour per image or something like that, it's really not a problem.

Click to expand...

What is it about your photography style or postprocessing methodology that demands so much use of DxO. I am not being argumentative or contrarian but really want to know. I've never used it and would certainly not let it dictate my hardware platform.

Click to expand...

DxO is certainly not dictating my hardware platform. For me and my use, DxO PhotoLab works fine (albeit a bit slowly) on my ancient computer.

The reason I use DxO PhotoLab (and often its companion ViewPoint) is that IMO / for my needs and preferences it is the best raw converter. That's based on a combination of achievable results and time / effort to achieve them. For someone else with different needs, preferences, and/or tastes, I can certainly see Capture One or the full ACR (through Lightroom or Photoshop) being the best. But hey, I'm happy to have anyone use whatever they like.

If you're interested in the pros and cons of DxO products beyond that, let's take it over to the Retouching forum. There are a lot of threads on this, many with my comments; join the discussion.

XiaoDeer said:

In order to future-proof your new system:

1. Remember you can't typically unplug the CPU and replace it with a faster one. A CPU change will likely require a motherboard and RAM upgrade too. So select a CPU that's going to meet your future needs.

(snip)

Click to expand...

I basically agree with that, but there are usually a number of CPUs that are compatible with a give motherboard/chipset. You could, in principle, buy a system with an I3-12100 (4 performance cores, 8 threads) and replace it with an I9-12900k (8 performance cores, 8 efficient cores, 24 threads), If the BIOS was updated, you might go to an I9-13900KS (8/16, 32 threads). That assumes that the motherboard and PSU were up to much higher power requirements of the new CPU.

If you wanted to swap in whatever CPU is the latest and greatest after a few years, it probably won't be possible. Different socket, different chipset, maybe different RAM.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Is 256 MB enough for the SSD, or do I really want 512 MB? Currently my Program Files is 18 GB and Program Files (x86) is 14 GB. Any further specification issues there?

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First off, 256GB is barely big enough and, depending upon what you install and what programs automatically store their own system stuff on the boot drive, it may be tight. I would recommend a 500GB system drive. You will then have plenty of breathing room for as long as you own that PC and it shouldn't cost more than about $20 more. Also, remember, you don't want to operate SSDs when they are nearly full as it really can slow them down as they try to maintain proper wear levelling.

As for specifications, you want an NVME M.2 drive on the motherboard and it should be in a socket so you can replace/service it yourself in the future. It should be PCIEv4. And, you want at least a mid-range speed (look for the xfer read for reading and writing). A mid-range speed would be 5000MB/s read and 2500MB/s write. A Sabrent Rocket 500GB is currently $49 at those speeds. A 500GB Samsung 980 Pro is $89 and does 6900MB/s read and 5000MB/s write.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

I figure I could buy an enterprise-grade 2 TB hard drive and add it myself without too much trouble. Do you agree?

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It is usually trivial to add a hard drive yourself as long as the motherboard has the right drive connectors and the power supply has power connectors available. You may or may not get a better deal buying it yourself vs. getting it built in. OEMs get better prices than consumers, but do add their markup so definitely compare. Don't just assume it will cost you less to add it yourself.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

I'd like to have video capability to do things my old Dell won't do, like run the Topaz AI software or support a UHD monitor, hopefully plus some sort of 10 bit and/or HDR--not sure precisely what I need. The Dell options for most of these are Intel UHD Graphics 730 and Intel UHD Graphics 770; is that enough? Or do I need to spend for something more?

Click to expand...

Topaz AI will be begging for a dedicated graphics card, not just the integrated graphics. For some longevity, probably at least a 3060 card. And, if you're going to add it yourself, you'll have to make sure your system has enough power supply Watts to power it and that at least one expansion slots is PCIEv4x16 and will fit a 3060 card. I would assume most towers could fit a 3060, but I would not necessarily assume that the power supply will have enough capacity to handle it.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

I really want an optical drive. Any reason not to remove the Blu Ray drive that I installed in the current computer and install it in the new one?

Click to expand...

You can certainly pull your existing optical drive into the new system. You may have difficulty finding a system that comes with a case that will hold an optical drive though as very few pre-built systems are anticipating 5-1/4 expansion bays. If you're building your own system from scratch, only about 10% of the cases available offer that. The system I built myself 3 years ago has an optical drive in it and I use it only a couple times a year so it really depends, I guess, on how much you're really using it. Frankly, I'd be perfectly fine with a USB-connected optical drive that I could then use in any of my systems and if you did that, you'd have a much wider selection of pre-built systems.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

I figure I need an i5, maybe an i7

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The i5-13600k is probably the sweet spot for value in Intel's performance desktop lineup right now and would be more than enough for what you're described without the price premium of the i7 or i9. As always, if you go a little higher to the i7-13700k, that just buys you a bit more longevity, but you pay a premium for that.

Do not plan on upgrading just a processor in the future, particularly in a pre-built Dell system. Depending on their BIOS it may not be physically possible and it is rarely a good bang for the buck. All of my upgrades have needed DRAM amd motherboard along with the CPU to make it really worth it. Intel regularly changes their socket (necessitating a new motherboard) and the BIOS usually needs an upgrade for a newer CPU and DRAM technology is rapidly evolving as we move from DDR4 to DDR5 too.

You didn't list the specs of your existing desktop or your specific concerns about its possible failure points. If you're not especially unhappy with the processing times for DxO/Topaz, you may want to hang onto it for a while. Both those programs really benefit from a modern GPU (e.g, RTX 3060), but if that's not so important to you you may be better off saving the money for future hardware.

Since you seem to be adept enough to modify a prebuilt to more suit your needs, why not just do the build yourself from scratch? NewEgg can be a real help there. Not everything has to come from Amazon.

Case -- I really like the CoolerMaster N400. It is a midtower case with 2X 5.25" externally exposed slot and 8 3.5" drive bays. Lots of cooling options.

Fans -- I use corsair fans

I prefer AMD processors over Intel.

Put in as much memory as you need/want, many decent motherboards can support up to 128 GB of memory.

I have a corsair 750W PSU

I have an LG m-disc optical blue-ray drive. M-Disc is a true archival media for digital material, like photos, and the disks have great capacities.

It's not really that hard to build a 'puter yourself. I've been doing it for years.

And, you already seem savvy enough to do a complete DIYer.

I began life with a Kodak X25 - don't have it anymore. Then a Konica AutoS3. Next a Nikon N80 SLR -- gave that one away; then a D300 and now a D500. Been through a number of lenses, including the Nikon 80mm f1.8 and found that it didn't improve my pictures any, that went with the N80. Now I have a Sigma 300-800 f4, Nikon 105 macro, 28-200mm general purpose, the Nikon 200-500 f4, an old Sigma 50-500 (took a lot with that one). and a 12-24 f4. My tripod is an old Manfrotto with the manfrotto gimbal mount.

Chasville said:

(snip)

Case -- I really like the CoolerMaster N400. It is a midtower case with 2X 5.25" externally exposed slot and 8 3.5" drive bays. Lots of cooling options.

(snip)

Click to expand...

Looks like a good case.

However, the design is about 10 years old.

For my most recent build, I wanted a case with a front port that connected to the USB 3.2 Gen2X2 header on my motherboard.

Cases that support that, and that have at least one 5.25" slot, are rare. They exist. One example: the Fractal Design Pop . (Its 5.25" slots are at the bottom, though.)

jch2103B said:

You didn't list the specs of your existing desktop or your specific concerns about its possible failure points.

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My current computer is more than ten years old, with an i5-2320 CPU and 8 GB of RAM. A recent 'blue screen of death' moment made me think that I am courting trouble at this point. Also, it simply will not run (at all!) some modern software, the the Topaz AI programs; I don't need fast, but I'd like the basic ability to run. If I'm going to replace it, then I think I should buy something that is likely to be functional for an extended period.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

NAwlins Contrarian said:

You didn't list the specs of your existing desktop or your specific concerns about its possible failure points.

Click to expand...

My current computer is more than ten years old, with an i5-2320 CPU and 8 GB of RAM. A recent 'blue screen of death' moment made me think that I am courting trouble at this point. Also, it simply will not run (at all!) some modern software, the the Topaz AI programs; I don't need fast, but I'd like the basic ability to run. If I'm going to replace it, then I think I should buy something that is likely to be functional for an extended period.

Click to expand...

Not a PC enthusiast? ;-)

i5-2320: 4 cores/4 threads. Even a low-end I3-12100 (4 cores, 8 threads) will be better than that. And the I3-12100's UHD graphics 730, while still not great, would be highly superior to the HD Graphics 2000 of the i5-2320.

An I7-12700 would be much better.

One caveat: the I7-12700F has no built-in GPU. (The Dells that you list don't seem to use that.) You may never use the video processing software that wants the iGPU (and does not benefit from the discrete GPU), but I'd want it just in case. Not much cost difference.

BobKnDP said:

NAwlins Contrarian said:

BobKnDP said:

You didn't list the specs of your existing desktop or your specific concerns about its possible failure points.

Click to expand...

My current computer is more than ten years old, with an i5-2320 CPU and 8 GB of RAM. A recent 'blue screen of death' moment made me think that I am courting trouble at this point. Also, it simply will not run (at all!) some modern software, the the Topaz AI programs; I don't need fast, but I'd like the basic ability to run. If I'm going to replace it, then I think I should buy something that is likely to be functional for an extended period.

Click to expand...

Not a PC enthusiast? ;-)

i5-2320: 4 cores/4 threads. Even a low-end I3-12100 (4 cores, 8 threads) will be better than that. And the I3-12100's UHD graphics 730, while still not great, would be highly superior to the HD Graphics 2000 of the i5-2320.

An I7-12700 would be much better.

One caveat: the I7-12700F has no built-in GPU. (The Dells that you list don't seem to use that.) You may never use the video processing software that wants the iGPU (and does not benefit from the discrete GPU), but I'd want it just in case. Not much cost difference.

Click to expand...

Just to put a finer point on matters: the computer I’m replacing is an i7-2600 8GB RAM 512G SSD 2TB 7200 RPM HDD Radeon GPU. I ran Puget Bench on it recently and came away with a score of about 341. The i7-12700 I’m getting scores about 1150-1200 on CPU alone. the performance improvement with replacing your present PC will be even more stark.



you’ll need to brew that cuppa super fast or surf only your favorite websites, ‘cause you won’t be waiting long for results

NAwlins Contrarian said:

My ancient Dell desktop worries me that it's on its last legs. I'd appreciate your advice on buying its replacement. I run DxO PhotoLab and its more computationally-intensive noise reduction, and occasionally edit some video, but I don't play video games or think I need a ton of computing power. Nevertheless, I want to buy something that will be functional for a decent number of years. In the past I've bought Dell towers because (1) I figure that is a reasonable guaranty of pretty good basic hardware, (2) if something goes wrong, that's my best chance of help, and (3) they've been reasonably expandable / upgradeable.

Click to expand...

I don't think you can go too far wrong with a Dell - they are dependable and offer a reasonable amount of 'build to order'.

However, I'd edge towards a self build.. It is not too difficult. You can get a decent sized case that will have better airflow than anything off-the-shelf and you can pick your own components - cooler, power-supply, MB, storage...

NAwlins Contrarian said:

In most of them, I've installed upgrades at various times over their lives: more memory, a Blu Ray drive,

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The drive might prove a problem, very few cases are built for them these days - and to be honest, you are not likely to miss it too much. You can probably get a separate USB connected unit...

NAwlins Contrarian said:

etc. Currently Dell does not appear to offer precisely what I want, maybe at least without spending a ton of money. So I'm thinking maybe I buy a basic Dell and then plan to install some things myself right away. However, I'm not confident that's the best approach. Yes, I realize Dell won't support problems with things I install, or plausibly caused by things I install, at least unless I buy the parts from them.

Click to expand...

If you want to add in other stuff, that seems to lean towards the self-build...

NAwlins Contrarian said:

I'm resigned to Windows 11, very likely Home (don't think I have a real need here for Professional), even though I might prefer W10 at the moment. I figure I need an i5, maybe an i7, probably 16 GB of RAM.

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I've been using W11 for some time and have found it fine.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

I figure an SSD for a boot drive, and maybe for program installation, makes sense, but I probably want about a 2 TB hard drive for data.

Click to expand...

You can probably get something with a .M2 chip on the motherboard...

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Is 256 MB enough for the SSD, or do I really want 512 MB? Currently my Program Files is 18 GB and Program Files (x86) is 14 GB. Any further specification issues there? I figure I could buy an enterprise-grade 2 TB hard drive and add it myself without too much trouble. Do you agree?

I'd like to have video capability to do things my old Dell won't do, like run the Topaz AI software or support a UHD monitor, hopefully plus some sort of 10 bit and/or HDR--not sure precisely what I need. The Dell options for most of these are Intel UHD Graphics 730 and Intel UHD Graphics 770; is that enough? Or do I need to spend for something more?

I really want an optical drive. Any reason not to remove the Blu Ray drive that I installed in the current computer and install it in the new one?

Click to expand...

Only that the new chassis probably won't have a bay for it, you could just have it trailing out the back, but it is a bit messy...

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Any other must-do advice? Thanks!

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--
Save a life, become a stem-cell donor.
Hello to Jason Isaacs!
https://bobjanes.smugmug.com/PoTB/
Please respect a BY-NC-ND cc licence on all my public internet images

NAwlins Contrarian said:

The reason I use DxO PhotoLab (and often its companion ViewPoint) is that IMO / for my needs and preferences it is the best raw converter.

Click to expand...

Thanks for responding. Maybe I should give it a go. A while ago, OK, a long while ago, I exhaustively tested RAW converters and my conclusion then was that with Nikon kit it was better to stick with 'Nikon' software (NX-i; Nikon Capture etc.). For my needs and preferences, of course, understood.

;-)

There has been a bit of discussion on this thread about the value of 256GB vs 512GB SSDs in a new build, and then just today, AnandTech came out with this article below that blew away the discussion:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/18777/prices-of-nand-flash-drop-rapidly-so-do-prices-of-ssds

Based on that article, forget about the small 256GB drives. The new debate should be the value of 512GB vs 1TB SSD drives. Don't even think about wasting money on a tiny 256GB SSD in a new build given today's SSD prices.