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Help me, to choose the next gear
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bobn2
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Please do stop disputing simple facts. It might be the 'same speed' in the way you interpret the colloquial word 'speed', but the facts of the amount of light energy projected onto the sensor are exactly as I said. Anyhow, neither is a fixed f-number f/4 lens, so you need to take into account what they actually are.
Again, based only on the definition of faster that you choose, and with no effect in real life. The aperture diameter is the aperture diameter, pure and simple. I put in the effort of explaining from first principles why what I say is correct. Please have the courtesy, if you think it's wrong, to go through that and explain where, rather than just shouting that it's wrong. I also know it is correct because I have a GX80 (same imaging chain as the OP's camera) and a FF camera and that is what happens. I can demonstrate when I have the time.
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Is it always wrong
for one to have the hots for
Comrade Kim Yo Jong?
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LDJS Photography
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Yup in terms of overall light gathering ability assuming say each camera tops out of useable range at say ISO 6400 and you use the same shutter speed - F2.8 on M43 is F4 on APSC and f5.6 on FF
If I shot indoors a lot I'd get FF and min f2,8 24-70 or ASPC and F2 / F1.4 primes or keep the m43 and learn to use a decent speedlight
If I shot indoors a lot I'd get FF and min f2,8 24-70 or ASPC and F2 / F1.4 primes or keep the m43 and learn to use a decent speedlight
PhotoTeach2
Forum Pro
Yes, in terms of NOISE, (FF can potentially have lower noise levels because of more TOTAL LIGHT collected).
Assuming you mean light/unit-area, for a same-source situation, the f/stop is the same on any sensor-size.
Noise would be lower on FF, and DOF would be shallower, (which could be problematic in many situations).
But other than assistance in AF (speed), w/ speedlight you would probably not need/want such speed-lenses.
The shallow-DOF could be problematic, and in (indoor) lower-light, not even the fastest lens could ever match the action-stopping ability of flash.
NOTE: referring back up to the top .... IF DIFFERENT F/STOPS WERE REQUIRED, we would not be able to use (hand-held) meters on ANY sensor-size.
PhotoTeach2
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It is a simple fact that you can (equally) use a hand-held light-meter equally on ANY sensor-size. ("exposure" -- light/unit-area or lightness -- is the same for any sensor-size)
A lens's "speed" is quoted as its (max-open) f/stop, (not physical-"diameter").
For "total" light, agreed, because a larger sensor required more (total) light, (and it does result in lower potential noise).
They are relatively close ... (not 3.5/stops different).
The accepted definition of the "speed" of a lens has always been f/stop.
Then WHY is the (physical) aperture-diameter not a listed-spec of all lenses ??? (only the "f/stop" is)
That is strange because I have shot from 4"x5", 6x9, 35, 1"-type, (and earlier 16mm and 9"x9" aerial-reconnaissance cameras) with SAME exposure-parameters on each).
I do agree that f/stops must be different if the same DOF is desired/required, but with offsetting SS/ISO's -- to still equal the same (light/unit-area) exposure.
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Some advice in the form of a very old joke:
A tourist is visiting New York City for the first time and gets lost. He stops a stranger carrying a violin case and asks, “How do I get to Carnegie Hall?”
The stranger looks at him for a few seconds before responding, ”Practice, practice, practice.”
A new camera (or lens or light) won’t help you make betted photographs, but lots of practice, making lots of mistakes, and a willingness to study and learn from to see what works and what doesn’t, just might.
--
Ellis Vener
To see my work, please visit http://www.ellisvener.com
I am on Instagram @EllisVenerStudio
“It's not about the f-stop." -Jay Maisel
A tourist is visiting New York City for the first time and gets lost. He stops a stranger carrying a violin case and asks, “How do I get to Carnegie Hall?”
The stranger looks at him for a few seconds before responding, ”Practice, practice, practice.”
A new camera (or lens or light) won’t help you make betted photographs, but lots of practice, making lots of mistakes, and a willingness to study and learn from to see what works and what doesn’t, just might.
--
Ellis Vener
To see my work, please visit http://www.ellisvener.com
I am on Instagram @EllisVenerStudio
“It's not about the f-stop." -Jay Maisel
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bobn2
Forum Pro
Which is something not in conflict with anything that I said. I'm too tired to go through your errors point by point. Let's not take that diversion. Lets just see which of these simple facts you were disputing.
1. On any camera and at the same shutter speed, a lens with a smaller f-number will allow acceptable results in lower light.
2. Comparing two different cameras fitted with lenses of the same f-number and using the same shutter speed, the camera with the larger sensor will allow acceptable results in lower light.
In all cases the quality threshold, in terms of image noise, is the same - and we are of course as usual generalising, ignoring lenses with abnormal transmission values and cameras with abnormal sensor efficiency (sometimes known as 'everything else being equal').
--
Is it always wrong
for one to have the hots for
Comrade Kim Yo Jong?
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LDJS Photography
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Yes
We both know I spelled out clearly what I meant.
It has bever been problematic for me. But then I'm never going to do a close up portrait at F1,4 and have blurry hair and ears
But at say F4 a FF camera will give me a less noisy photo than an M43 camera with same F stop and s/speed as we all knowWhy not? Bokeh is really nice for some shots. Did a ballet at Xmas and my F1.4 shots look peach! OOF flowers in the foreground, ballet dancers crisp midground and multi coloured spotlights in soft focus at the rear of the frame. Lovely! Can't share due to GDPR.
Not if you know photography, no, you know when to use it and when not to. That's an odd thing for you to say I must admit!
Bigger sensor still makes life easier
I'll spell it out again so we both know what I said
If you have an M43 and APCS and FF at same ISO same s/speed and F2.8, you'll be a stop of ISO better off on APSC and two on FF.
That's a fact and is not dangerous or problematic for me.
If it is for you, then I respect that
DO what works for you Many people use m43.
I just know a larger sensor means less NR in post from experience and while you have that F1.4 you don't always have to use it, but it is nice for when you do and when you know how to use it un-problematically
As I said I use APSC.
If I were to do indoors more often I would use FF as at the ballet I shot at Xmas, flash would be and was an absolute no no (as would have been using mech shutter) it would be for many events - ah something we can agree on!
PhotoTeach2
Forum Pro
Why is that not what I see ... "F2.8 on M43 is F4 on APSC and f5.6 on FF -- same ISO 6400 and shutter speed"
I do not agree with that ... for a same light-source situation, the f/stop is the same on any sensor-size.
The OP is talking about "family w/ 2 "little" (read fast) kids.
I would suggest that a deeper DOF would most often be better for his situation.
For others, there are both advantages & disadvantages to shallow vs deeper DOF.
Yes, FF would have lower inherent noise, (because usually receives more "total" light).But then I'm never going to do a close up portrait at F1,4 and have blurry hair and ears
Sounds like an appropriate use for shallow-DOF.
This is a "beginners" forum, I suggest a deeper-DOF would be better overall for them, (especially OP w/ 2 little/fast kids).
Not necessarily ...
I confess that I do not understand your words here ... am I correct in restating: "you'll be one stop off on APSC and two stops off on FF ???"
If my restating is correct ... then you are (factually) wrong.
At same ISO & SS, f/stops are SAME on all sensor-sizes !!! (for same lightness and ignoring DOF & noise).
It is a fact that a hand-held light meter can be used equally for all sensor-sizes.
Agree with above ... but for the OP, "my main subject is my family, & 2 little kids".If it is for you, then I respect that
Many people use m43.
I just know a larger sensor means less NR in post from experience and while you have that F1.4 you don't always have to use it, but it is nice for when you do and when you know how to use it un-problematically
As I said I use APSC.
If I were to do indoors more often I would use FF as at the ballet I shot at Xmas, flash would be and was an absolute no no (as would have been using mech shutter) it would be for many events - ah something we can agree on!
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PhotoTeach2
Forum Pro
I have no argument with the above ... but I assume you are putting the emphasis on NOISE ... the same with your earlier statement "Thus your Sony kit lens will give you 2.6-3.5 stops improvement", (in NOISE).
But I suggest that "noise" can be the least important element in an image.
1) Noise does not practically exist until it becomes visible, (noticeably-objectionable).
2) There are NR-PP to mitigate it when necessary.
The main advantage to FF that I see is the ability to use a higher-ISO (and thus faster SS because I consider camera/subject movement as a bigger problem than noise).
LDJS Photography
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Gah can't find the recent dpr 3 piece article on sensor size, it explains it all
We all know on each different sensor even at the same F stop the larger sensors receive more light due to being larger so The F2,8 on M43 will receive same as f4 on apsc and f5,6 on ff
Then figure in the larger sensors deliver less noise at each ISO number and well....
That's what it boils down to and there's the end of it. I don't know why this can't just be accepted
Look I shoot an APSC.
I am never going to argue that a FF with an F2.8 lens isn't going to make me a stop better off than an APSC with an F2.8 lens. Doesn't matter how you word it.
Even group shots when I did the ballet there was a large choir on stage going 3 rows back and I shot them at F3,2 on APSC and they are fine and everyone is in focus. This was using a 56mm F1.4 on APSC. I would have a lower ISO than on m43
But I concede that WR to flash I am a beginner and have no clue what I'm taking about so there may not be much difference and I'm guessing speedlights are a great equaliser?
Being a complete novice at flash lighting I chose to go wider aperture and honestly so far so good but a well measured and exposed diffused and directed flash does give a more professional aesthetic I feel and is something worth exploring! I remember a workplace I was at for a while the events photographer always used m43 and a good speedlight and produced great photos!
We all know on each different sensor even at the same F stop the larger sensors receive more light due to being larger so The F2,8 on M43 will receive same as f4 on apsc and f5,6 on ff
Then figure in the larger sensors deliver less noise at each ISO number and well....
That's what it boils down to and there's the end of it. I don't know why this can't just be accepted
Look I shoot an APSC.
I am never going to argue that a FF with an F2.8 lens isn't going to make me a stop better off than an APSC with an F2.8 lens. Doesn't matter how you word it.
Even group shots when I did the ballet there was a large choir on stage going 3 rows back and I shot them at F3,2 on APSC and they are fine and everyone is in focus. This was using a 56mm F1.4 on APSC. I would have a lower ISO than on m43
But I concede that WR to flash I am a beginner and have no clue what I'm taking about so there may not be much difference and I'm guessing speedlights are a great equaliser?
Being a complete novice at flash lighting I chose to go wider aperture and honestly so far so good but a well measured and exposed diffused and directed flash does give a more professional aesthetic I feel and is something worth exploring! I remember a workplace I was at for a while the events photographer always used m43 and a good speedlight and produced great photos!
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PhotoTeach2
Forum Pro
TRUE ... but the same light/unit-area.
NO ... different f/stops deliver different light/unit-area, so different f/stops will require different offsetting exposure-parameters, (SS/ISO), for "correct" exposure).
Because more "total" light received because of the larger-area, (but same light/unit-area for same f/stops for any sensor-size).
The bottom line is that hand-held light-meters and Sunny-16 Rule are equally valid for all sensor-sizes. (only noise and DOF are different)
I will argue it ... it is the same (exposure-settings and lightness), but FF will have lower total-noise and inherently shallower-DOF, (at any same-f/stop).
No ... ISO could have been the same. (only noise and DOF are different)
For (fast) moving subjects (like little-kids), flash is essential if indoors. Common SS w/out flash is often only about 1/30s.
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LDJS Photography
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I'll not respond to the rest as we're going in circles.
Most people accept having an F2.8 on m43 for dof and overall light gathering is like F4 on APSC and F5.6 on FF.
as for
I used an F1.4 lens for a ballet. Ballet is FAST and they were kids.
I froze every shot. In a dark church hall with only multicolored dim / gelled spotlights
Let's write only truth please
Most people accept having an F2.8 on m43 for dof and overall light gathering is like F4 on APSC and F5.6 on FF.
as for
This is just not true.
I used an F1.4 lens for a ballet. Ballet is FAST and they were kids.
I froze every shot. In a dark church hall with only multicolored dim / gelled spotlights
Let's write only truth please
PhotoTeach2
Forum Pro
For DOF yes the different f/stops apply.
And yes for "total" light-gathering, but applies to only "noise".
It does not mean exposure-settings for "lightness" need to be different, (which is based on only light/unit-area)
So the same f/stop is used if you are not concerned about DOF -- (and if you do change f/stop, you must offset w/ either SS or ISO for same lightness).
I have a f/1.2 lens so i also know what is possible, but how many "beginners" are likely to have one, (or FF camera w/ higher ISO potential) ???
Most have (much-slower) "kit" zooms.
Curious, what complete A/SS/ ISO do you wind up using in the lower-light -- i used to often use 1/30s @ f/2.8 @ ISO 400 to 1600) ???
(and i wont ask what sensor-size because it does not matter unless i am concerned about DOF or noise).
I dont want "beginners" to constru that for (same) "LIGHTNESS", exposure-settings (A/SS/ISO) must be different for different sensor sizes,
They can be the same w/different sensor-sizes, unless DOF or noise is a factor, (and if one parameter is changed -- it must be offset w/ another).
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bobn2
Forum Pro
Good. So essentially, we don't have a difference.
I made a mistake with respect to the lens that he was planning on buying with the Sony, which was an f/4, not an f/2.8. He mentioned an f/2.8 on the Panasonic in the next line, and I confused the two. Had you just corrected my mistake instead of going off on an idealogical rant we might have settled this quickly. Because it was just that, a mistake.
So, the correct figure was 1.7-2.5 stops improvement.
All the rest is irrelevant. They are your opinions on the importance of noise, that seem not to match the OP's. He's as entitled to his opinion as you are. As to my opinion, in the end people select exposure for three reasons, the DOF they will get, the motion blur they will get and the noise that will result from that exposure. The lightness that will result from that exposure is largely irrelevant, because the same lightness may be had from any number of different exposures simply by adjusting the ISO control. Some people may not intellectually adhere to this view, but in practice they operate it, because if they think noise will be too much they lower the ISO control which results in a bigger exposure.
--
"There are plenty of cameras at work, but most of them without any brains or knowledge to work them."
Ferdinand Hurter.
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bobn2
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Why are you putting random words in quotes? It makes it hard to read.
LDJS Photography
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ISO 4000, F1.4 and 1/400 for most of the dance photos. ISO 4000 on X-T2 is pretty clean
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