Are you satisfied with your denoise software?

Yes, I'm happy with DxO PhotoLab v6.

Moderately happy with Topaz Denoise AI, but I would only use it on images that I can't process using DeepPRIME (i.e. non-raw images).
Noise reduction and sharpening for detail are two sides of the same coin. While Photolab 6 noise reduction of RAW files is excellent and I use it whereber possible, PL 6 lacks the best sharpening routines.
OTOH, DxO's lens profiles apply excellent capture sharpening. For creative and output sharpening, I rely on Lightroom.
For many files the sharpening of Topaz software and in some cases Luminar Neo will provide a better overall result. I print almost exclusively on13x19" and 17x22" papers and occasionally on 17x25".
Whatever capture sharpening is applied by DxO isn't a complete solution, as you note. In fact, DxO has a separate independent sharpening module, which strongly suggests that DxO understands the limitations of whatever sharpening is automatically applied.

Sharpening in Photoshop is not the same as Lightroom and Photoshop has no dedicated output sharpening.

Depending on the photo if I want the best quality sharpening, following whatever rudimentary sharpening is applied by DxO
There's nothing "rudimentary" about DxO's profile-based Lens Sharpness. It applies stronger sharpening in areas where a given lens model is known to be softer. Try that with any other app. In my view this is all that's needed for capture sharpening.

For creative sharpening, DxO's USM combined with U-point local adjustments is pretty versatile.
DxO lens corrections are very good, but print making usually requires additional sharpening and not just output sharpening. The photo below was trash coming out of DxO; the detail was smeared by the noise reduction.
The photo below was made with a lens that was incorrectly reported by the camera and thus DxO was unable to apply a profile for Lens Sharpness.
No,
Yes.
as with many lenses, DxO has no profile for that fisheye lens.
Nobody offers lens-specific sharpening for that lens. The example you're using to criticize DxO is an outlier. With most lenses, DxO does apply "additional sharpening and not just output sharpening". Adobe offers this feature for exactly zero lenses. In fact, nobody other than DxO is offering this feature for any lens.5
Oh, I wasn't criticizing DxO for not having a profile for THAT lens, but generally for many lenses, including, as I mentioned, almost all Voigtlander lenses, including the popular 50mm F2, which I have. Fortunately, that lens doesn't require significant correction. But, you are correct, DxO ignores manual focus lenses, even those that are reasonably popular.
But, noise reduction was applied in DxO, which is very good. Even if there had been a DxO lens profile, it would not have brought up sufficient detail for this shot, in my experience.
My experience is different. The combination of capture sharpening via Lens Sharpness and output sharpening via Lightroom's Export module is generally sufficient. If the lens is soft, as my FZ1000 MkII's can be, I'll apply fine sharpening USM in Lightroom. I could just as easily do that in DxO PhotoLab, but the masking slider in Lightroom's USM makes this tool a bit better.
Rest assured, following noise removal of high-noise files, the newer AI software sharpening routines can be FAR better that what is currently provided by Adobe, although I believe Adobe Lightroom may be looking into AI development for noise removal and sharpening.
It irritates me that despite repeated requests over the years, DxO ignores development of lens profiles for several relatively popular Voigtlander lenses (not this photo).
There are a lot of lenses hitting the market these days, including relatively obscure manual-focus ones. DxO has to devote its limited resources to the ones with the largest user bases. I've got a couple of Samyang AF primes for FE mount for which DxO does not yet have profiles. I've put in requests to DxO, but I'm not publicly trashing the company about it because, for the vast majority of my work, PhotoLab is stills hands-down the best tool for me.
Trashing? That's an absurd way to look at legitimate criticism, even if you personally disagree. DxO has good noise reduction and some other features. The software isn't a one-stop solution and works best only for lenses in its database. That's an observation and opinion, not trashing or trolling. As I mentioned, I have had the DxO software for years. It has value, but is not an end-all be-all. Speaking of trolling, Jacques . . .
What detail there is was restored using Topaz sharpening. True, this was an extreme case
and an unrepresentative one
Not really. It was a noisy file.
, but I find additional sharpening using Topaz and sometimes Neo can make a big difference in prints.
That may be. But, in this case, you are not taking full advantage of DxO's capabilities.
And, how is that? Look, Jacques, DxO has its uses, which is why I have subscribed for years, but DxO has limitations that prevent it from being a one-stop panacea. For example, the algorithm of the shadow slider washes out contrast before you bring up shadows very far. Adobe RAW and Neo both work better for that. Bottom line is DxO works well as a single solution if you don’t intend significant manipulation and the file doesn’t need much sharpening. Heck, I can make due with Photoshop only for files I never intend to print.
, I will use Topaz or Neo. This is particularly effective for high ISO. I will also do an output sharpening for inkjet printing some photos with either NIK or the old Photokit output sharpener.
I used to use PhotoKit Sharpener for output sharpening until I read that much of the tech behind it had been shared by the devs with Adobe and incorporated into Lightroom's output sharpening in the Export module.
I use Photoshop, but not Lightroom.
Teatro Colon, Buenos Aires
Teatro Colon, Buenos Aires

Note: the lens was a fisheye, not 50mm as reported by the camera. While DxO provided good noise reduction, sharpening outside DxO (Topaz) was required to bring in detail.
 
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First, a level-set: Good noise reduction doesn't remove detail, because, especially with high-ISO images, that detail was never in the file in the first place. Not even the Platonic ideal of noise reduction could make a high-ISO image yield the same level of detail as a low-ISO version. That said, I find DxO's DeepPRIME and DeepPRIME XD remarkably good at mining detail from high-ISO images that would otherwise look like mush covered with rainbow sprinkles if processed with Lightroom.
AI denoisers could give the same detail as low-ISO version, IF they're trained with enough data and your image falls into the trained data. Neural-network/AI denoisers are trained with pairs of clean-noisy images, so they can infer back to the clean version from the noisy version.

I haven't used any commercial AI denoisers, just a quick question: do they work with already denoised images (as in SOOC JPG), or do they work with RAW files that have not been denoised?

If they work with already denoised images, the data is already lost, and the result of course is not consistent, as the noise pattern varies between software and cameras.

If they work with RAW files that have not been denoised (only demosaiced), the noise is pristine with all the original data, and the noise pattern is consistent as they are truly noise in original form. nind-denoise, although is still an early prototype, implements this approach.

Here's a quick test shot at ISO 12,800. I tried mixing in different textures just to mess up nind-denoise pattern recognition. It has been trained with mostly static subjects, so it doesn't do well with motion blur or human skin. Also, nind-denoise has to be applied to the image before lens correction or any transformation/streching that can alter the noise pattern. Applying tone curve and color balance doesn't affect it much, though.

SOOC JPG
SOOC JPG

image with no NR applied, exported from darktable just before feeding into nind-denoise
image with no NR applied, exported from darktable just before feeding into nind-denoise

image denoised with nind-denoise
image denoised with nind-denoise
 
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First, a level-set: Good noise reduction doesn't remove detail, because, especially with high-ISO images, that detail was never in the file in the first place. Not even the Platonic ideal of noise reduction could make a high-ISO image yield the same level of detail as a low-ISO version. That said, I find DxO's DeepPRIME and DeepPRIME XD remarkably good at mining detail from high-ISO images that would otherwise look like mush covered with rainbow sprinkles if processed with Lightroom.
AI denoisers could give the same detail as low-ISO version, IF they're trained with enough data and your image falls into the trained data. Neural-network/AI denoisers are trained with pairs of clean-noisy images, so they can infer back to the clean version from the noisy version.

I haven't used any commercial AI denoisers, just a quick question: do they work with already denoised images (as in SOOC JPG), or do they work with RAW files that have not been denoised?
The DxO DeepPRIME and DeepPRIME XD tools only work on raw images, before any other processing. They need images before demosaicing. These are the most effective AI NR tools available. They are included in PhotoLab 6 Elite edition.

Topaz DeNoise AI and Photo AI can be used on raw or RGB images, but use different models for each. The raw version is more effective, but unfortunately it's a lousy raw developer.

If they work with already denoised images, the data is already lost, and the result of course is not consistent, as the noise pattern varies between software and cameras.

If they work with RAW files that have not been denoised (only demosaiced), the noise is pristine with all the original data, and the noise pattern is consistent as they are truly noise in original form. nind-denoise, although is still an early prototype, implements this approach.
If you share a noisy raw file, we can try out the commercial tools on it for comparison.

 
If you share a noisy raw file, we can try out the commercial tools on it for comparison.
thanks, here's the RAF of the previous sample:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TEPtzPaClqHpcI505awsWSdO__dNEHKi/view

Here's a slightly trickier sample due to the color cast of the dance floor, and I capped AutoISO at 800 as my X-T2 is ISO-invariant with dual-gain. As mentioned, nind-denoise wasn't trained with human subjects, so skin looks quite smooth and faces losing details (or it hasn't been trained with this extreme noise).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_IbX3j1xvoRjACNhTm5lv32pb1JgNu-c/view

RAF exported from darktable with no NR
RAF exported from darktable with no NR

then fed through nind-denoise
then fed through nind-denoise
 
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Yes, I'm happy with DxO PhotoLab v6.

Moderately happy with Topaz Denoise AI, but I would only use it on images that I can't process using DeepPRIME (i.e. non-raw images).
This.

And denoise and sharpening is a balancing act.

But also, I've learned not to spend too much time pixel peeping. There are things that only other photographers will spot or even care about.

And, I've never sold a single image to another photographer.
 
Yes, I'm happy with DxO PhotoLab v6.

Moderately happy with Topaz Denoise AI, but I would only use it on images that I can't process using DeepPRIME (i.e. non-raw images).
Noise reduction and sharpening for detail are two sides of the same coin. While Photolab 6 noise reduction of RAW files is excellent and I use it whereber possible, PL 6 lacks the best sharpening routines.
OTOH, DxO's lens profiles apply excellent capture sharpening. For creative and output sharpening, I rely on Lightroom.
For many files the sharpening of Topaz software and in some cases Luminar Neo will provide a better overall result. I print almost exclusively on13x19" and 17x22" papers and occasionally on 17x25".
Whatever capture sharpening is applied by DxO isn't a complete solution, as you note. In fact, DxO has a separate independent sharpening module, which strongly suggests that DxO understands the limitations of whatever sharpening is automatically applied.

Sharpening in Photoshop is not the same as Lightroom and Photoshop has no dedicated output sharpening.

Depending on the photo if I want the best quality sharpening, following whatever rudimentary sharpening is applied by DxO
There's nothing "rudimentary" about DxO's profile-based Lens Sharpness. It applies stronger sharpening in areas where a given lens model is known to be softer. Try that with any other app. In my view this is all that's needed for capture sharpening.

For creative sharpening, DxO's USM combined with U-point local adjustments is pretty versatile.
DxO lens corrections are very good, but print making usually requires additional sharpening and not just output sharpening. The photo below was trash coming out of DxO; the detail was smeared by the noise reduction.
The photo below was made with a lens that was incorrectly reported by the camera and thus DxO was unable to apply a profile for Lens Sharpness.
No,
Yes.
as with many lenses, DxO has no profile for that fisheye lens.
Nobody offers lens-specific sharpening for that lens. The example you're using to criticize DxO is an outlier. With most lenses, DxO does apply "additional sharpening and not just output sharpening". Adobe offers this feature for exactly zero lenses. In fact, nobody other than DxO is offering this feature for any lens.5
Oh, I wasn't criticizing DxO for not having a profile for THAT lens, but generally for many lenses, including, as I mentioned, almost all Voigtlander lenses, including the popular 50mm F2, which I have. Fortunately, that lens doesn't require significant correction. But, you are correct, DxO ignores manual focus lenses, even those that are reasonably popular.
But, noise reduction was applied in DxO, which is very good. Even if there had been a DxO lens profile, it would not have brought up sufficient detail for this shot, in my experience.
My experience is different. The combination of capture sharpening via Lens Sharpness and output sharpening via Lightroom's Export module is generally sufficient. If the lens is soft, as my FZ1000 MkII's can be, I'll apply fine sharpening USM in Lightroom. I could just as easily do that in DxO PhotoLab, but the masking slider in Lightroom's USM makes this tool a bit better.
Rest assured, following noise removal of high-noise files, the newer AI software sharpening routines can be FAR better that what is currently provided by Adobe, although I believe Adobe Lightroom may be looking into AI development for noise removal and sharpening.
It irritates me that despite repeated requests over the years, DxO ignores development of lens profiles for several relatively popular Voigtlander lenses (not this photo).
There are a lot of lenses hitting the market these days, including relatively obscure manual-focus ones. DxO has to devote its limited resources to the ones with the largest user bases. I've got a couple of Samyang AF primes for FE mount for which DxO does not yet have profiles. I've put in requests to DxO, but I'm not publicly trashing the company about it because, for the vast majority of my work, PhotoLab is stills hands-down the best tool for me.
Trashing? That's an absurd way to look at legitimate criticism, even if you personally disagree.
Your reference to DxO's sharpening as "rudimentary" struck me as trashing the company, not "legitimate criticism".
DxO has good noise reduction and some other features. The software isn't a one-stop solution
Nothing is.
and works best only for lenses in its database. That's an observation and opinion, not trashing or trolling.
I agree.
As I mentioned, I have had the DxO software for years. It has value, but is not an end-all be-all.
Nothing is.
Speaking of trolling, Jacques . . .
You're the one bringing it up, not me.
What detail there is was restored using Topaz sharpening. True, this was an extreme case
and an unrepresentative one
Not really. It was a noisy file.
, but I find additional sharpening using Topaz and sometimes Neo can make a big difference in prints.
That may be. But, in this case, you are not taking full advantage of DxO's capabilities.
And, how is that? Look, Jacques, DxO has its uses, which is why I have subscribed for years, but DxO has limitations that prevent it from being a one-stop panacea. For example, the algorithm of the shadow slider washes out contrast before you bring up shadows very far. Adobe RAW and Neo both work better for that. Bottom line is DxO works well as a single solution if you don’t intend significant manipulation and the file doesn’t need much sharpening. Heck, I can make due with Photoshop only for files I never intend to print.
, I will use Topaz or Neo. This is particularly effective for high ISO. I will also do an output sharpening for inkjet printing some photos with either NIK or the old Photokit output sharpener.
I used to use PhotoKit Sharpener for output sharpening until I read that much of the tech behind it had been shared by the devs with Adobe and incorporated into Lightroom's output sharpening in the Export module.
I use Photoshop, but not Lightroom.
Teatro Colon, Buenos Aires
Teatro Colon, Buenos Aires

Note: the lens was a fisheye, not 50mm as reported by the camera. While DxO provided good noise reduction, sharpening outside DxO (Topaz) was required to bring in detail.
--
"Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean. Because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai
 
Yes, I'm happy with DxO PhotoLab v6.

Moderately happy with Topaz Denoise AI, but I would only use it on images that I can't process using DeepPRIME (i.e. non-raw images).
Noise reduction and sharpening for detail are two sides of the same coin. While Photolab 6 noise reduction of RAW files is excellent and I use it whereber possible, PL 6 lacks the best sharpening routines.
OTOH, DxO's lens profiles apply excellent capture sharpening. For creative and output sharpening, I rely on Lightroom.
For many files the sharpening of Topaz software and in some cases Luminar Neo will provide a better overall result. I print almost exclusively on13x19" and 17x22" papers and occasionally on 17x25".
Whatever capture sharpening is applied by DxO isn't a complete solution, as you note. In fact, DxO has a separate independent sharpening module, which strongly suggests that DxO understands the limitations of whatever sharpening is automatically applied.

Sharpening in Photoshop is not the same as Lightroom and Photoshop has no dedicated output sharpening.

Depending on the photo if I want the best quality sharpening, following whatever rudimentary sharpening is applied by DxO
There's nothing "rudimentary" about DxO's profile-based Lens Sharpness. It applies stronger sharpening in areas where a given lens model is known to be softer. Try that with any other app. In my view this is all that's needed for capture sharpening.

For creative sharpening, DxO's USM combined with U-point local adjustments is pretty versatile.
DxO lens corrections are very good, but print making usually requires additional sharpening and not just output sharpening. The photo below was trash coming out of DxO; the detail was smeared by the noise reduction.
The photo below was made with a lens that was incorrectly reported by the camera and thus DxO was unable to apply a profile for Lens Sharpness.
No,
Yes.
as with many lenses, DxO has no profile for that fisheye lens.
Nobody offers lens-specific sharpening for that lens. The example you're using to criticize DxO is an outlier. With most lenses, DxO does apply "additional sharpening and not just output sharpening". Adobe offers this feature for exactly zero lenses. In fact, nobody other than DxO is offering this feature for any lens.5
Oh, I wasn't criticizing DxO for not having a profile for THAT lens, but generally for many lenses, including, as I mentioned, almost all Voigtlander lenses, including the popular 50mm F2, which I have. Fortunately, that lens doesn't require significant correction. But, you are correct, DxO ignores manual focus lenses, even those that are reasonably popular.
But, noise reduction was applied in DxO, which is very good. Even if there had been a DxO lens profile, it would not have brought up sufficient detail for this shot, in my experience.
My experience is different. The combination of capture sharpening via Lens Sharpness and output sharpening via Lightroom's Export module is generally sufficient. If the lens is soft, as my FZ1000 MkII's can be, I'll apply fine sharpening USM in Lightroom. I could just as easily do that in DxO PhotoLab, but the masking slider in Lightroom's USM makes this tool a bit better.
Rest assured, following noise removal of high-noise files, the newer AI software sharpening routines can be FAR better that what is currently provided by Adobe, although I believe Adobe Lightroom may be looking into AI development for noise removal and sharpening.
It irritates me that despite repeated requests over the years, DxO ignores development of lens profiles for several relatively popular Voigtlander lenses (not this photo).
There are a lot of lenses hitting the market these days, including relatively obscure manual-focus ones. DxO has to devote its limited resources to the ones with the largest user bases. I've got a couple of Samyang AF primes for FE mount for which DxO does not yet have profiles. I've put in requests to DxO, but I'm not publicly trashing the company about it because, for the vast majority of my work, PhotoLab is stills hands-down the best tool for me.
Trashing? That's an absurd way to look at legitimate criticism, even if you personally disagree.
Your reference to DxO's sharpening as "rudimentary" struck me as trashing the company, not "legitimate criticism".
Not intended as a criticism at all. The intended reference was to basic or initial sharpening. Further sharpening, if necessary, is accomplished elsewhere in DxO or in another program.
DxO has good noise reduction and some other features. The software isn't a one-stop solution
Nothing is.
and works best only for lenses in its database. That's an observation and opinion, not trashing or trolling.
I agree.
As I mentioned, I have had the DxO software for years. It has value, but is not an end-all be-all.
Nothing is.
Speaking of trolling, Jacques . . .
You're the one bringing it up, not me.
You misunderstood inferring a negative connotation to "rudimentary," which does have more than one meaning. Fair enough.
What detail there is was restored using Topaz sharpening. True, this was an extreme case
and an unrepresentative one
Not really. It was a noisy file.
, but I find additional sharpening using Topaz and sometimes Neo can make a big difference in prints.
That may be. But, in this case, you are not taking full advantage of DxO's capabilities.
And, how is that? Look, Jacques, DxO has its uses, which is why I have subscribed for years, but DxO has limitations that prevent it from being a one-stop panacea. For example, the algorithm of the shadow slider washes out contrast before you bring up shadows very far. Adobe RAW and Neo both work better for that. Bottom line is DxO works well as a single solution if you don’t intend significant manipulation and the file doesn’t need much sharpening. Heck, I can make due with Photoshop only for files I never intend to print.
, I will use Topaz or Neo. This is particularly effective for high ISO. I will also do an output sharpening for inkjet printing some photos with either NIK or the old Photokit output sharpener.
I used to use PhotoKit Sharpener for output sharpening until I read that much of the tech behind it had been shared by the devs with Adobe and incorporated into Lightroom's output sharpening in the Export module.
I use Photoshop, but not Lightroom.
Teatro Colon, Buenos Aires
Teatro Colon, Buenos Aires

Note: the lens was a fisheye, not 50mm as reported by the camera. While DxO provided good noise reduction, sharpening outside DxO (Topaz) was required to bring in detail.
 
Yes, I'm happy with DxO PhotoLab v6.

Moderately happy with Topaz Denoise AI, but I would only use it on images that I can't process using DeepPRIME (i.e. non-raw images).
Noise reduction and sharpening for detail are two sides of the same coin. While Photolab 6 noise reduction of RAW files is excellent and I use it whereber possible, PL 6 lacks the best sharpening routines.
OTOH, DxO's lens profiles apply excellent capture sharpening. For creative and output sharpening, I rely on Lightroom.
For many files the sharpening of Topaz software and in some cases Luminar Neo will provide a better overall result. I print almost exclusively on13x19" and 17x22" papers and occasionally on 17x25".
Whatever capture sharpening is applied by DxO isn't a complete solution, as you note. In fact, DxO has a separate independent sharpening module, which strongly suggests that DxO understands the limitations of whatever sharpening is automatically applied.

Sharpening in Photoshop is not the same as Lightroom and Photoshop has no dedicated output sharpening.

Depending on the photo if I want the best quality sharpening, following whatever rudimentary sharpening is applied by DxO
There's nothing "rudimentary" about DxO's profile-based Lens Sharpness. It applies stronger sharpening in areas where a given lens model is known to be softer. Try that with any other app. In my view this is all that's needed for capture sharpening.

For creative sharpening, DxO's USM combined with U-point local adjustments is pretty versatile.
DxO lens corrections are very good, but print making usually requires additional sharpening and not just output sharpening. The photo below was trash coming out of DxO; the detail was smeared by the noise reduction.
The photo below was made with a lens that was incorrectly reported by the camera and thus DxO was unable to apply a profile for Lens Sharpness.
No,
Yes.
as with many lenses, DxO has no profile for that fisheye lens.
Nobody offers lens-specific sharpening for that lens. The example you're using to criticize DxO is an outlier. With most lenses, DxO does apply "additional sharpening and not just output sharpening". Adobe offers this feature for exactly zero lenses. In fact, nobody other than DxO is offering this feature for any lens.5
Oh, I wasn't criticizing DxO for not having a profile for THAT lens, but generally for many lenses, including, as I mentioned, almost all Voigtlander lenses, including the popular 50mm F2, which I have. Fortunately, that lens doesn't require significant correction. But, you are correct, DxO ignores manual focus lenses, even those that are reasonably popular.
But, noise reduction was applied in DxO, which is very good. Even if there had been a DxO lens profile, it would not have brought up sufficient detail for this shot, in my experience.
My experience is different. The combination of capture sharpening via Lens Sharpness and output sharpening via Lightroom's Export module is generally sufficient. If the lens is soft, as my FZ1000 MkII's can be, I'll apply fine sharpening USM in Lightroom. I could just as easily do that in DxO PhotoLab, but the masking slider in Lightroom's USM makes this tool a bit better.
Rest assured, following noise removal of high-noise files, the newer AI software sharpening routines can be FAR better that what is currently provided by Adobe, although I believe Adobe Lightroom may be looking into AI development for noise removal and sharpening.
It irritates me that despite repeated requests over the years, DxO ignores development of lens profiles for several relatively popular Voigtlander lenses (not this photo).
There are a lot of lenses hitting the market these days, including relatively obscure manual-focus ones. DxO has to devote its limited resources to the ones with the largest user bases. I've got a couple of Samyang AF primes for FE mount for which DxO does not yet have profiles. I've put in requests to DxO, but I'm not publicly trashing the company about it because, for the vast majority of my work, PhotoLab is stills hands-down the best tool for me.
Trashing? That's an absurd way to look at legitimate criticism, even if you personally disagree.
Your reference to DxO's sharpening as "rudimentary" struck me as trashing the company, not "legitimate criticism".
Not intended as a criticism at all. The intended reference was to basic or initial sharpening. Further sharpening, if necessary, is accomplished elsewhere in DxO or in another program.
Understood.
DxO has good noise reduction and some other features. The software isn't a one-stop solution
Nothing is.
and works best only for lenses in its database. That's an observation and opinion, not trashing or trolling.
I agree.
As I mentioned, I have had the DxO software for years. It has value, but is not an end-all be-all.
Nothing is.
Speaking of trolling, Jacques . . .
You're the one bringing it up, not me.
You misunderstood inferring a negative connotation to "rudimentary," which does have more than one meaning. Fair enough.
Overall, the comparison of PhotoLab with Lightroom is a mixed bag. DxO's Lens Sharpness function is quite sophisticated, not at all "rudimentary", and unmatched by any other RAW processor. OTOH, its USM tool is fairly basic, lacking the masking slider found in Lightroom. OTOOH, one can apply masked USM via the U-point local adjustments. OTOOOH, Lightroom's output sharpening via the export function is quite sophisticated, and PhotoLab entirely lacks a function designed specifically for output sharpening.

Both apps have great strengths and relative weakness with regard to sharpening. I can't pick an overall winner. Which is why both have key roles in my workflow.
What detail there is was restored using Topaz sharpening. True, this was an extreme case
and an unrepresentative one
Not really. It was a noisy file.
, but I find additional sharpening using Topaz and sometimes Neo can make a big difference in prints.
That may be. But, in this case, you are not taking full advantage of DxO's capabilities.
And, how is that? Look, Jacques, DxO has its uses, which is why I have subscribed for years, but DxO has limitations that prevent it from being a one-stop panacea. For example, the algorithm of the shadow slider washes out contrast before you bring up shadows very far. Adobe RAW and Neo both work better for that. Bottom line is DxO works well as a single solution if you don’t intend significant manipulation and the file doesn’t need much sharpening. Heck, I can make due with Photoshop only for files I never intend to print.
, I will use Topaz or Neo. This is particularly effective for high ISO. I will also do an output sharpening for inkjet printing some photos with either NIK or the old Photokit output sharpener.
I used to use PhotoKit Sharpener for output sharpening until I read that much of the tech behind it had been shared by the devs with Adobe and incorporated into Lightroom's output sharpening in the Export module.
I use Photoshop, but not Lightroom.
Teatro Colon, Buenos Aires
Teatro Colon, Buenos Aires

Note: the lens was a fisheye, not 50mm as reported by the camera. While DxO provided good noise reduction, sharpening outside DxO (Topaz) was required to bring in detail.


--
"Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean. Because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai
 
I can vouch for Neat Image too. It does a good job and is easy to use. Topaz was better with fine detail when the image was enlarged. Only using a monitor to compare and the image was low iso.
 
Yes, I'm happy with DxO PhotoLab v6.

Moderately happy with Topaz Denoise AI, but I would only use it on images that I can't process using DeepPRIME (i.e. non-raw images).
Noise reduction and sharpening for detail are two sides of the same coin. While Photolab 6 noise reduction of RAW files is excellent and I use it whereber possible, PL 6 lacks the best sharpening routines.
OTOH, DxO's lens profiles apply excellent capture sharpening. For creative and output sharpening, I rely on Lightroom.
For many files the sharpening of Topaz software and in some cases Luminar Neo will provide a better overall result. I print almost exclusively on13x19" and 17x22" papers and occasionally on 17x25".
Whatever capture sharpening is applied by DxO isn't a complete solution, as you note. In fact, DxO has a separate independent sharpening module, which strongly suggests that DxO understands the limitations of whatever sharpening is automatically applied.

Sharpening in Photoshop is not the same as Lightroom and Photoshop has no dedicated output sharpening.

Depending on the photo if I want the best quality sharpening, following whatever rudimentary sharpening is applied by DxO
There's nothing "rudimentary" about DxO's profile-based Lens Sharpness. It applies stronger sharpening in areas where a given lens model is known to be softer. Try that with any other app. In my view this is all that's needed for capture sharpening.

For creative sharpening, DxO's USM combined with U-point local adjustments is pretty versatile.
DxO lens corrections are very good, but print making usually requires additional sharpening and not just output sharpening. The photo below was trash coming out of DxO; the detail was smeared by the noise reduction.
The photo below was made with a lens that was incorrectly reported by the camera and thus DxO was unable to apply a profile for Lens Sharpness.
No,
Yes.
as with many lenses, DxO has no profile for that fisheye lens.
Nobody offers lens-specific sharpening for that lens. The example you're using to criticize DxO is an outlier. With most lenses, DxO does apply "additional sharpening and not just output sharpening". Adobe offers this feature for exactly zero lenses. In fact, nobody other than DxO is offering this feature for any lens.
And IMHO they are not better by doing this. They just make matters worse in most cases as their sample differs from your own one in sample variation.
It irritates me that despite repeated requests over the years, DxO ignores development of lens profiles for several relatively popular Voigtlander lenses (not this photo).
There are a lot of lenses hitting the market these days, including relatively obscure manual-focus ones. DxO has to devote its limited resources to the ones with the largest user bases.
It's not a matter of limited resources. Lenses behave quite astonishingly different depending on focusing distance (should be understandable if you know how focusing works in modern lenses as compared to old beginning of 1900's lenses) - without knowledge of the focusing distance the amount of any correction "needed" is a complete unknown for the software.

IMHO DxO isn't worth the money, especially because I see no sense whatsoever in the lens corrections!
 
Yes, I'm happy with DxO PhotoLab v6.

Moderately happy with Topaz Denoise AI, but I would only use it on images that I can't process using DeepPRIME (i.e. non-raw images).
Noise reduction and sharpening for detail are two sides of the same coin. While Photolab 6 noise reduction of RAW files is excellent and I use it whereber possible, PL 6 lacks the best sharpening routines.
OTOH, DxO's lens profiles apply excellent capture sharpening. For creative and output sharpening, I rely on Lightroom.
For many files the sharpening of Topaz software and in some cases Luminar Neo will provide a better overall result. I print almost exclusively on13x19" and 17x22" papers and occasionally on 17x25".
Whatever capture sharpening is applied by DxO isn't a complete solution, as you note. In fact, DxO has a separate independent sharpening module, which strongly suggests that DxO understands the limitations of whatever sharpening is automatically applied.

Sharpening in Photoshop is not the same as Lightroom and Photoshop has no dedicated output sharpening.

Depending on the photo if I want the best quality sharpening, following whatever rudimentary sharpening is applied by DxO
There's nothing "rudimentary" about DxO's profile-based Lens Sharpness. It applies stronger sharpening in areas where a given lens model is known to be softer. Try that with any other app. In my view this is all that's needed for capture sharpening.

For creative sharpening, DxO's USM combined with U-point local adjustments is pretty versatile.
DxO lens corrections are very good, but print making usually requires additional sharpening and not just output sharpening. The photo below was trash coming out of DxO; the detail was smeared by the noise reduction.
The photo below was made with a lens that was incorrectly reported by the camera and thus DxO was unable to apply a profile for Lens Sharpness.
No,
Yes.
as with many lenses, DxO has no profile for that fisheye lens.
Nobody offers lens-specific sharpening for that lens. The example you're using to criticize DxO is an outlier. With most lenses, DxO does apply "additional sharpening and not just output sharpening". Adobe offers this feature for exactly zero lenses. In fact, nobody other than DxO is offering this feature for any lens.
And IMHO they are not better by doing this. They just make matters worse in most cases as their sample differs from your own one in sample variation.
It irritates me that despite repeated requests over the years, DxO ignores development of lens profiles for several relatively popular Voigtlander lenses (not this photo).
There are a lot of lenses hitting the market these days, including relatively obscure manual-focus ones. DxO has to devote its limited resources to the ones with the largest user bases.
It's not a matter of limited resources. Lenses behave quite astonishingly different depending on focusing distance (should be understandable if you know how focusing works in modern lenses as compared to old beginning of 1900's lenses) - without knowledge of the focusing distance the amount of any correction "needed" is a complete unknown for the software.
How do you know that isn't part of DxO's lab tests?
IMHO DxO isn't worth the money, especially because I see no sense whatsoever in the lens corrections!
Many of us disagree with you. We enjoy getting larger, sharper images, effortlessly.
 
Digital Nigel wrote.
Topaz DeNoise AI and Photo AI can be used on raw or RGB images, but use different models for each. The raw version is more effective, but unfortunately it's a lousy raw developer.
That would because they're not and have never claimed to be, 'raw developers.'

The fact that they lack every tool except denoise and sharpening should be a clue . . .


"It's good to be . . . . . . . . . Me!"
 
Digital Nigel wrote.

Topaz DeNoise AI and Photo AI can be used on raw or RGB images, but use different models for each. The raw version is more effective, but unfortunately it's a lousy raw developer.
That would because they're not and have never claimed to be, 'raw developers.'

The fact that they lack every tool except denoise and sharpening should be a clue . . .
Yes, but they nevertheless recommend the use on raw images. It's bad advice that fools many users.
 
Digital Nigel wrote.

Topaz DeNoise AI and Photo AI can be used on raw or RGB images, but use different models for each. The raw version is more effective, but unfortunately it's a lousy raw developer.
That would because they're not and have never claimed to be, 'raw developers.'

The fact that they lack every tool except denoise and sharpening should be a clue . . .
Yes, but they nevertheless recommend the use on raw images. It's bad advice that fools many users.
You're, as usual, making a case, in a roundabout way for your beloved DxO.

In real life, I suspect that few people would consider software that doesn't convert, nor claims to be able to, convert raw files to be a raw converter.


"It's good to be . . . . . . . . . Me!"
 
Yes, I'm happy with DxO PhotoLab v6.

Moderately happy with Topaz Denoise AI, but I would only use it on images that I can't process using DeepPRIME (i.e. non-raw images).
Noise reduction and sharpening for detail are two sides of the same coin. While Photolab 6 noise reduction of RAW files is excellent and I use it whereber possible, PL 6 lacks the best sharpening routines.
OTOH, DxO's lens profiles apply excellent capture sharpening. For creative and output sharpening, I rely on Lightroom.
For many files the sharpening of Topaz software and in some cases Luminar Neo will provide a better overall result. I print almost exclusively on13x19" and 17x22" papers and occasionally on 17x25".
Whatever capture sharpening is applied by DxO isn't a complete solution, as you note. In fact, DxO has a separate independent sharpening module, which strongly suggests that DxO understands the limitations of whatever sharpening is automatically applied.

Sharpening in Photoshop is not the same as Lightroom and Photoshop has no dedicated output sharpening.

Depending on the photo if I want the best quality sharpening, following whatever rudimentary sharpening is applied by DxO
There's nothing "rudimentary" about DxO's profile-based Lens Sharpness. It applies stronger sharpening in areas where a given lens model is known to be softer. Try that with any other app. In my view this is all that's needed for capture sharpening.

For creative sharpening, DxO's USM combined with U-point local adjustments is pretty versatile.
DxO lens corrections are very good, but print making usually requires additional sharpening and not just output sharpening. The photo below was trash coming out of DxO; the detail was smeared by the noise reduction.
The photo below was made with a lens that was incorrectly reported by the camera and thus DxO was unable to apply a profile for Lens Sharpness.
No,
Yes.
as with many lenses, DxO has no profile for that fisheye lens.
Nobody offers lens-specific sharpening for that lens. The example you're using to criticize DxO is an outlier. With most lenses, DxO does apply "additional sharpening and not just output sharpening". Adobe offers this feature for exactly zero lenses. In fact, nobody other than DxO is offering this feature for any lens.
And IMHO they are not better by doing this. They just make matters worse in most cases as their sample differs from your own one in sample variation.
Who says they use only one sample?
It irritates me that despite repeated requests over the years, DxO ignores development of lens profiles for several relatively popular Voigtlander lenses (not this photo).
There are a lot of lenses hitting the market these days, including relatively obscure manual-focus ones. DxO has to devote its limited resources to the ones with the largest user bases.
It's not a matter of limited resources.
Yes, it is. It takes time and work to profile lenses.
Lenses behave quite astonishingly different depending on focusing distance (should be understandable if you know how focusing works in modern lenses as compared to old beginning of 1900's lenses) - without knowledge of the focusing distance the amount of any correction "needed" is a complete unknown for the software.
This does not explain why DxO doesn't have profiles for every single lens on the market.
IMHO DxO isn't worth the money, especially because I see no sense whatsoever in the lens corrections!
That you're talking about "sense" indicates to me that you are unfamiliar with the results.
 
If you share a noisy raw file, we can try out the commercial tools on it for comparison.
thanks, here's the RAF of the previous sample:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TEPtzPaClqHpcI505awsWSdO__dNEHKi/view
Here you go. I've processed the raw in the latest versions of four commercial products with AI-based NR features (among others). I have not brightened it. In alphabetic order:



DxO PhotoLab 6 DeepPRIME (DeepPRIME XD not yet available for this camera)
DxO PhotoLab 6 DeepPRIME (DeepPRIME XD not yet available for this camera)



Luminar Neo Noiseless
Luminar Neo Noiseless



Topaz DeNoise AI (RAW model)
Topaz DeNoise AI (RAW model)



Topaz Photo AI  (raw)
Topaz Photo AI (raw)

For comparison, this was your version:



Nind-denoise
Nind-denoise

Here's a slightly trickier sample due to the color cast of the dance floor, and I capped AutoISO at 800 as my X-T2 is ISO-invariant with dual-gain. As mentioned, nind-denoise wasn't trained with human subjects, so skin looks quite smooth and faces losing details (or it hasn't been trained with this extreme noise).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_IbX3j1xvoRjACNhTm5lv32pb1JgNu-c/view

RAF exported from darktable with no NR
RAF exported from darktable with no NR

then fed through nind-denoise
then fed through nind-denoise
This was what I managed in DxO PhotoLab 6:



DxO PhotoLab 6
DxO PhotoLab 6
 
Here you go. I've processed the raw in the latest versions of four commercial products with AI-based NR features (among others). I have not brightened it. In alphabetic order:
Thanks for running them through the denoisers, very much appreciated!

After a quick blind review, ignoring brightness/local contrast/deblurring/saturation, focusing mostly on smooth and detailed areas, I'd rank them from good to best:
  • Luminar Neo Noiseless: pretty good at retaining details, but noise are still very visible, especially chroma noise.
  • Topaz DeNoise AI (RAW model): good at removing noise, but I see plenty of artifacts in smooth areas and around the texts on the label. Not sure if the sharpening/deblurring contributed to exaggerating those artifacts.
  • Topaz Photo AI (raw): really good at digging out the details, especially tiny furs on the fabric. The trade-off is more luma noise (e.g. the silver band on the side of the remote control).
  • DxO PhotoLab 6 DeepPRIME: doesn't keep as much details as Topaz Photo AI, but being cleaner allows more room for processing without amplifying artifacts and remaining luma noise.
I'm quite surprised that nind-denoise is doing quite good comparing to the commercial options, I'd slot it between DxO and Topaz Photo. The ranking might be slightly different for different samples/scenarios, but probably not much.

I assume the tools are also close in terms of performance/speed? nind-denoise takes about 11 seconds on my 6GB RTX 3060 for a 24MP RAF.
This was what I managed in DxO PhotoLab 6:
This is consistent with the previous sample, nind-denoise is also pretty close to it.

Looks like nind-denoise is going in the right direction, hopefully there will be improvement once the author releases his thesis. I've been working on integrating it into darktable via Lua script and by injecting it into the history stack with darktable-cli. I'm planning on contributing more samples with bracketed shots, and a Python script to align the images more accurately. This free/open-source tool is worth investing in.

Again, thanks much for doing the experiment!
 
After a quick blind review, ignoring brightness/local contrast/deblurring/saturation, focusing mostly on smooth and detailed areas, I'd rank them from good to best:
  • Luminar Neo Noiseless: pretty good at retaining details, but noise are still very visible, especially chroma noise.
  • Topaz DeNoise AI (RAW model): good at removing noise, but I see plenty of artifacts in smooth areas and around the texts on the label. Not sure if the sharpening/deblurring contributed to exaggerating those artifacts.
  • Topaz Photo AI (raw): really good at digging out the details, especially tiny furs on the fabric. The trade-off is more luma noise (e.g. the silver band on the side of the remote control).
  • DxO PhotoLab 6 DeepPRIME: doesn't keep as much details as Topaz Photo AI, but being cleaner allows more room for processing without amplifying artifacts and remaining luma noise.
I'm quite surprised that nind-denoise is doing quite good comparing to the commercial options, I'd slot it between DxO and Topaz Photo. The ranking might be slightly different for different samples/scenarios, but probably not much.
Wow, that is amazing! No reason to pay year after year for DxO if you have nind-denoise.

By the way, as of today DxO DeepPRIME XD supports Fujifilm X-Trans. I have not seen any comparisons yet on the Fuji X forum. I am happy with PhotoLab, especially its ease of use, but I hardly ever shoot Raw.
Looks like nind-denoise is going in the right direction, hopefully there will be improvement once the author releases his thesis. I've been working on integrating it into darktable via Lua script and by injecting it into the history stack with darktable-cli. I'm planning on contributing more samples with bracketed shots, and a Python script to align the images more accurately. This free/open-source tool is worth investing in.
On MacOS, I really miss the top menus when Darktable comes up, but I loved Darktable on Linux. Due to less-than-competitive laptops from PC vendors, I mostly abandoned Linux

Only one reference to nind-denoise on pixls.us, so you appear to be ahead of the curve.

https://discuss.pixls.us/t/ai-based-raw-denoise/32325/12
 
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Here you go. I've processed the raw in the latest versions of four commercial products with AI-based NR features (among others). I have not brightened it. In alphabetic order:
Thanks for running them through the denoisers, very much appreciated!

After a quick blind review, ignoring brightness/local contrast/deblurring/saturation, focusing mostly on smooth and detailed areas, I'd rank them from good to best:
  • Luminar Neo Noiseless: pretty good at retaining details, but noise are still very visible, especially chroma noise.
  • Topaz DeNoise AI (RAW model): good at removing noise, but I see plenty of artifacts in smooth areas and around the texts on the label. Not sure if the sharpening/deblurring contributed to exaggerating those artifacts.
  • Topaz Photo AI (raw): really good at digging out the details, especially tiny furs on the fabric. The trade-off is more luma noise (e.g. the silver band on the side of the remote control).
  • DxO PhotoLab 6 DeepPRIME: doesn't keep as much details as Topaz Photo AI, but being cleaner allows more room for processing without amplifying artifacts and remaining luma noise.
Since I did that test this morning, DxO has released a new version of PhotoLab, 6.4. This new release now allows the latest NR tool, DeepPRIME XD (eXtra Detail) to be used on Fuji RAF files. That recovers a lot more detail than the older DeepPRIME:

DxO DeepPRIME XD (just available today for Fuji RAF); I turned off lens corrections in this rendering, as I see that your image did not have lens corrections.
DxO DeepPRIME XD (just available today for Fuji RAF); I turned off lens corrections in this rendering, as I see that your image did not have lens corrections.

And here it is at the ball:

DxO DeepPRIME XD
DxO DeepPRIME XD
I'm quite surprised that nind-denoise is doing quite good comparing to the commercial options, I'd slot it between DxO and Topaz Photo. The ranking might be slightly different for different samples/scenarios, but probably not much.

I assume the tools are also close in terms of performance/speed? nind-denoise takes about 11 seconds on my 6GB RTX 3060 for a 24MP RAF.
Hard to say. The tools tend to be very sensitive to GPU performance and drivers. My guess is the commercial tools are a bit faster than that.
 
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Here's a quick test shot at ISO 12,800. I tried mixing in different textures just to mess up nind-denoise pattern recognition. It has been trained with mostly static subjects, so it doesn't do well with motion blur or human skin. Also, nind-denoise has to be applied to the image before lens correction or any transformation/streching that can alter the noise pattern. Applying tone curve and color balance doesn't affect it much, though.

SOOC JPG
SOOC JPG

image with no NR applied, exported from darktable just before feeding into nind-denoise
image with no NR applied, exported from darktable just before feeding into nind-denoise

image denoised with nind-denoise
image denoised with nind-denoise
That last is a very good result. For what operating systems is it available? Scripting only or GUI?
 
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