Where is the Panasonic GX10 ?

I remain optimistic! We are still coming out of COVID as far as planning and production are concerned. One MFT manufacturer underwent a major restructuring and still released a couple of substantially new products. Panasonic has more resources and a different philosophy, and so I expect some new and interesting stuff at increased pace in coming months and years.

What we need is a "reliable" source to tell us it will be out soon.

I realize the thread is almost two years old, and things have actually gotten even worse for the camera industry.

Smartphone cameras have gotten better, so most amateur and casual photographers aren't buying cameras anymore. The only market left for the camera makers seems to be pros and high end enthusiasts.

And the camera technology has really matured. The only improvements we have seen since the GX9 are "more features" and "AI functions." Image quality might have improved slightly, but anyone who needs the best image quality is probably buying full frame cameras and not M4/3 or APSC today.

Since the camera makers are selling fewer cameras, they are putting most of their efforts into high end models. Because they have much higher profit margins there, and they are the only ones with some demand today.

Just to show you how much things have changed for the industry, CIPA just reported their shipments for January 2023.... and since we cannot compare a single month to past years, let's compare January 2023 to the average month for previous years:



Over the past decade shipments are down over 90%. They have aggressively increased prices but revenue is still down around 66%. This all adds up to fewer new cameras, and fewer at affordable prices....

The manufacturers really have no other choices. They must adapt to the market or cease to exist. And they have adapted by going up market and cutting costs wherever they could. You can imagine how difficult it must be to operate a business on one third the revenue you had ten years ago, but they seem to have adapted pretty well.

--
Marty
my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/

Marty4650 said:

I realize the thread is almost two years old, and things have actually gotten even worse for the camera industry.

Click to expand...

No the camera industry is doing very well it is that the new players, apple, samsung and all the Chinese brands are doing better than the traditional Nikons, Canons etc

fcna72 said:

It has Been so long that either Pana or Olympus have released a high quality rangefinder format camera with the latest tech (the last omd or pana 100 don't qualify) that it is getting to a point where the first one who will release one is bound to sell very well... And no matter is shortcomings or crazy high price... So many of us are holding of to gx85, gx8 or om5 waiting for " something " better that we will buy it knowing this might be the last one for a very very long time.

I can't imagine that Pana or omd are not aware and won't be developing one sooner or later.

Click to expand...

Oly had released RF style EP7 in 2021

I'm not sure what the G100 has to do with any of the other Lumix cameras. The G100 was designed to be a an easy video content creation camera. Its more of a simple GH and a unique model.

The GX series is more stills with full controls and some video.

Marty4650 said:

I realize the thread is almost two years old, and things have actually gotten even worse for the camera industry.

Smartphone cameras have gotten better, so most amateur and casual photographers aren't buying cameras anymore. The only market left for the camera makers seems to be pros and high end enthusiasts.

And the camera technology has really matured. The only improvements we have seen since the GX9 are "more features" and "AI functions." Image quality might have improved slightly, but anyone who needs the best image quality is probably buying full frame cameras and not M4/3 or APSC today.

Since the camera makers are selling fewer cameras, they are putting most of their efforts into high end models. Because they have much higher profit margins there, and they are the only ones with some demand today.

Just to show you how much things have changed for the industry, CIPA just reported their shipments for January 2023.... and since we cannot compare a single month to past years, let's compare January 2023 to the average month for previous years:



Over the past decade shipments are down over 90%. They have aggressively increased prices but revenue is still down around 66%. This all adds up to fewer new cameras, and fewer at affordable prices....

The manufacturers really have no other choices. They must adapt to the market or cease to exist. And they have adapted by going up market and cutting costs wherever they could. You can imagine how difficult it must be to operate a business on one third the revenue you had ten years ago, but they seem to have adapted pretty well.

Click to expand...

The camera market is like the computer market in some ways. The upgrade cycle is long now. I just looked it up. I bought my notebook in December 2015. My cameras and lenses are older. The computer still works well (although the battery is past it) .

Panasonic doesn't release cameras or lenses often. That's not a bad thing. Consistency has perceived value. I don't hear this complaint about Leica. Hmmm.

The point is that cameras and computers have become "appliances" as much as they are tools. You don't replace a refrigerator or a hammer "just because".

I don't have data for this but smartphones are "lifestyle accessories". The cameras are "just there". To some people they have to have the latest "bling". It doesn't matter if the new model is an incremental change over the old - it's status.

To some degree this happens with cameras and camera owners but I doubt it has any significance on sales figures. There's definitely an elitism. "Oh? You're not using a ___ camera? Let me bludgeon you senseless with equivalence and self-important nonsense. Serious photographers only use MY camera."

Pros tend to upgrade cameras slower. Once they're paid for, they're an asset.

melnais said:

melnais said:

I realize the thread is almost two years old, and things have actually gotten even worse for the camera industry.

Click to expand...

No the camera industry is doing very well it is that the new players, apple, samsung and all the Chinese brands are doing better than the traditional Nikons, Canons etc

Click to expand...

You're comparing camera makers to smartphone makers. Apple and Samsung haven't made a dedicated camera in decades.

Chinese camera brands in the US? Other that DJI, they're hardly on the page. Same with smartphones.

thinkinginimages said:

melnais said:

thinkinginimages said:

I realize the thread is almost two years old, and things have actually gotten even worse for the camera industry.

Click to expand...

No the camera industry is doing very well it is that the new players, apple, samsung and all the Chinese brands are doing better than the traditional Nikons, Canons etc

Click to expand...

You're comparing camera makers to smartphone makers. Apple and Samsung haven't made a dedicated camera in decades.

Chinese camera brands in the US? Other that DJI, they're hardly on the page. Same with smartphones.

Click to expand...

A camera is a camera no matter what there is no need for it to be dedicated to one task in this century . I is just that smartphone manufacturers are smarter than the Nikons Canons OMD's etc they produce a camera that most consumers want and buy.

If you want to play the photo snob that you seem to be...... then.....I shoot a lot of film and your visual poison is just a computer in a black box mine is a dedicated camera LOL

melnais said:

thinkinginimages said:

melnais said:

melnais said:

I realize the thread is almost two years old, and things have actually gotten even worse for the camera industry.

Click to expand...

No the camera industry is doing very well it is that the new players, apple, samsung and all the Chinese brands are doing better than the traditional Nikons, Canons etc

Click to expand...

You're comparing camera makers to smartphone makers. Apple and Samsung haven't made a dedicated camera in decades.

Chinese camera brands in the US? Other that DJI, they're hardly on the page. Same with smartphones.

Click to expand...

A camera is a camera no matter what there is no need for it to be dedicated to one task in this century . I is just that smartphone manufacturers are smarter than the Nikons Canons OMD's etc they produce a camera that most consumers want and buy.

If you want to play the photo snob that you seem to be...... then.....I shoot a lot of film and your visual poison is just a computer in a black box mine is a dedicated camera LOL

Click to expand...

Thank you for your pretentious and obnoxious answer.

I'm a retired pro lab and pro photographer, as well as several other related fields. A half century and counting. I don't need to justify my experience. People pay for that.

I have nothing against smartphone cameras, or any cameras, but that's all they are.

thinkinginimages said:

I'm a retired pro lab and pro photographer, as well as several other related fields. A half century and counting. I don't need to justify my experience. People pay for that.

Click to expand...

woo hoo!

At least you admit you are a retired relic.......

thinkinginimages said:

Marty4650 said:

I realize the thread is almost two years old, and things have actually gotten even worse for the camera industry.

Smartphone cameras have gotten better, so most amateur and casual photographers aren't buying cameras anymore. The only market left for the camera makers seems to be pros and high end enthusiasts.

And the camera technology has really matured. The only improvements we have seen since the GX9 are "more features" and "AI functions." Image quality might have improved slightly, but anyone who needs the best image quality is probably buying full frame cameras and not M4/3 or APSC today.

Since the camera makers are selling fewer cameras, they are putting most of their efforts into high end models. Because they have much higher profit margins there, and they are the only ones with some demand today.

Just to show you how much things have changed for the industry, CIPA just reported their shipments for January 2023.... and since we cannot compare a single month to past years, let's compare January 2023 to the average month for previous years:



Over the past decade shipments are down over 90%. They have aggressively increased prices but revenue is still down around 66%. This all adds up to fewer new cameras, and fewer at affordable prices....

The manufacturers really have no other choices. They must adapt to the market or cease to exist. And they have adapted by going up market and cutting costs wherever they could. You can imagine how difficult it must be to operate a business on one third the revenue you had ten years ago, but they seem to have adapted pretty well.

Click to expand...

The camera market is like the computer market in some ways. The upgrade cycle is long now. I just looked it up. I bought my notebook in December 2015. My cameras and lenses are older. The computer still works well (although the battery is past it) .

Panasonic doesn't release cameras or lenses often. That's not a bad thing. Consistency has perceived value. I don't hear this complaint about Leica. Hmmm.

Click to expand...

I was curious about this so I looked at some dates. Panasonic released plenty of cameras but very few were photography based Micro 4/3 bodies. I got these dates and whether they're considered video, photo, or hybrid (or whatever) from DPR, so I guess those are debatable.

01/2023 - S5 II & IIx, photo-hybrid ff cameras
02/2022 - GH6, video-centric
10/2021 - BS1H, video
05/2021 - GH5.2, video-centric
10/2020 - GBH1, video
10/2020 - S5, ff photo-hybrid
06/2020 - G100, vlogger-centric
05/2019 - S1H, video-centric
04/2019 - G95, consumer photography
01/2019 - S1 & S1R, photography/hybrid
02/2018 - GX9, compact photography
02/2018 - GF10, compact photography
01/2018 - GH5s, video
11/2017 - G9, enthusiast photography

So It's been over 5 years since the G9, arguably Panasonic's last enthusiast photography Micro 4/3 photo camera. They did come out with the GX9 and G95 but those are hardly replacements for the G9.

It appears that Panasonic is happy to make new cameras so long as they're for video or full-frame. I mean, it seems plausible they could have made a Micro 4/3 version of the S5 II just shrunk down a bit, but they didn't even do that. As much as they say Micro 4/3 is still part of their business, sure it is so long as it's video-based.

Maybe what Panasonic intends is that if you want a Micro 4/3 high-end DSLR style body you're going to have to buy a GH. Perhaps the GX8 and G9 were a test to see how the market would respond. They were kind of one-offs. Since those bodies have not been replaced, they'll apparently just go back to the model where the GH bodies are the flagships like when the GH3 and GH4 were.

thinkinginimages said:

The point is that cameras and computers have become "appliances" as much as they are tools. You don't replace a refrigerator or a hammer "just because".

Click to expand...

I think it's true that cameras can remain relevant longer since the rapid improvement has slowed down a bit since the DSLR days. But it doesn't explain how other manufacturers, and Panasonic, have regularly released new bodies. They just haven't been Micro 4/3 bodies.

For M43, even with their obvious struggles I think OM Systems is actually more prolific than Panasonic. It looks to me, as much as I don't like it, that the future isn't bright for M43.

(edits for my typos)

Smartphones are digital imaging devices. Just like doorbell cameras, endoscopes, security cameras, and automotive backup cameras.

But are these what people think of when they hear the word "camera?" The smartphone comes closest to a camera in that sense, but it is really a multipurpose device, and one of it's many function is to take snapshots. It may never become a tool for professional photographers and high end enthusiasts despite all the predictions that it would.... around ten years ago.

Smartphones are really "good enough" for snapshooters and casual photographers, and have done serious damage to the camera making industry. As I noted in another post, their volume is down over 90% and this is mostly due to smartphones replacing them for casual users.

But to call them "cameras" is a statistical disservice. They are cameras just like those other devices are.... like Ring Doorbells, and Endoscopes. The work fine for snapshots, but they just aren't primarily intended as serious photographic tools. In fact the smartphones with the best cameras in them (Google Pixels) have an incredibly small market share. At the smartphones that feature partnerships with Leica, Hasselblad or Zeiss have almost no market share.

Marty4650 said:

It may never become a tool for professional photographers and high end enthusiasts despite all the predictions that it would.

Click to expand...

They already are extensively used by the media for news coverage and many a Magnum photographer's choice in various situations. Remember a professional is one who earns a living from his or hers field of activity. There are a lot of people are making a better living from their smartphone cameras than many with a dedicated camera.

Marty4650 said:

Smartphones are digital imaging devices. Just like doorbell cameras, endoscopes, security cameras, and automotive backup cameras.

But are these what people think of when they hear the word "camera?" The smartphone comes closest to a camera in that sense, but it is really a multipurpose device, and one of it's many function is to take snapshots. It may never become a tool for professional photographers and high end enthusiasts despite all the predictions that it would.... around ten years ago.

Smartphones are really "good enough" for snapshooters and casual photographers, and have done serious damage to the camera making industry. As I noted in another post, their volume is down over 90% and this is mostly due to smartphones replacing them for casual users.

But to call them "cameras" is a statistical disservice. They are cameras just like those other devices are.... like Ring Doorbells, and Endoscopes. The work fine for snapshots, but they just aren't primarily intended as serious photographic tools. In fact the smartphones with the best cameras in them (Google Pixels) have an incredibly small market share. At the smartphones that feature partnerships with Leica, Hasselblad or Zeiss have almost no market share.

Click to expand...

I'm not worried about Panasonic and MFT. There's more to MFT than the cameras we tend to chat about here. (Who would have thought Blackmagic would have come out with the Pocket Cine and that it would use MFT lenses?)

As for smartphones and tablets, check out Josh Apter's Padcaster: https://padcaster.com/

Imaging is changing fast.

No well run business makes products that are difficult to sell. Or products they can sell, but that don't make sufficient profits to keep them in business.

This is just simple economics. Panasonic hasn't made very many M4/3 cameras in recent years because they weren't selling enough of them. And their sales were trending downwards due to the popularity of full frame cameras.

This isn't just a hunch on my part, the decline in overall sales is pretty clear from CIPA statistics. And if you are curious about whether there will be a GX10, then just look at the number of Panasonic GX7 series cameras that Dpr members claim they bought:



The trend is pretty clear. Each new model sells fewer than the last one. And this is despite the new models having new features and some better capabilities. I think this is because most owners don't automatically upgrade. The GX9 was a very nice camera, but their GX85 might be good enough for their needs.

This is also a function of a very mature technology. The replacement cycle gets longer and longer, just like with computers and washing machines.

But this isn't just a Panasonic problem. Lets look at some other M4/3 camera series that are not video centric, or designed for bloggers...



The same trend is happening here. The first model sells pretty well, then ownership goes progressively downhill from there. Not only won't there be a GX10, I doubt we will ever see an EM10 V, or an OM5 II. The flagship OM1 might get an update, because it seems to have done relatively well compared to the previous flagship, and it is still a current model.



--
Marty
my blog: http://marty4650.blogspot.com/

melnais said:

thinkinginimages said:

melnais said:

melnais said:

I realize the thread is almost two years old, and things have actually gotten even worse for the camera industry.

Click to expand...

No the camera industry is doing very well it is that the new players, apple, samsung and all the Chinese brands are doing better than the traditional Nikons, Canons etc

Click to expand...

You're comparing camera makers to smartphone makers. Apple and Samsung haven't made a dedicated camera in decades.

Chinese camera brands in the US? Other that DJI, they're hardly on the page. Same with smartphones.

Click to expand...

A camera is a camera no matter what there is no need for it to be dedicated to one task in this century . I is just that smartphone manufacturers are smarter than the Nikons Canons OMD's etc they produce a camera that most consumers want and buy.

Click to expand...

Sure there are plenty of uses for dedicated cameras. Could their designs and feature sets be forward looking instead of so conservative? Absolutely. But there are many situations and subject matter where a real camera is simply a better tool.

Me, I buy an iPhone for all that it does… email, texting, organization, navigating, music storage, research on the hoof while traveling. Lots of other stuff, too.

The camera is a nice add-on that I really don't use very often.

melnais said:

If you want to play the photo snob that you seem to be...... then.....I shoot a lot of film and your visual poison is just a computer in a black box mine is a dedicated camera LOL

Click to expand...

there are snobs of all sorts, too

I won't take the gear list of DPR's members as any creditable source of reference.

You should know it is quite polarize on certain brands, on certain shooting genre as well in DPR. When video is getting more popular, majority of polls on sereval active forums still indicated members won't care video. On M43, BIF seems to have dominated the forum but in real life I doubt would most people own/want a camera really serious on bird shooting.

I guess maturity of the system, global economy condition as well as business/industry condition could be a factor for the ongoing business decision.

Not expect Panny will leave M43, but slowing down/ more purdent business model could be expected. The renewing speed on lower end models like GX and GF, together with G100 might even be on a slower upgrading trend.

Interesting data. Not to dispute it but I think comparing the GX7s and Olympus anything we have to factor in marketing. Olympus was a huge hype machine and there's a huge fan base going back to Maitani days. Panasonic did something curious referring to successive GX versions as "Mark" this and that. I don't recall them doing this before. It muddied things a bit.

Well, he GX8 have OELD EVF, i sold it and keep my little G100 that I love.