My real world experiences with mft and FF

My judgement between FF and m 4/3 or even apsc isn’t what I can see on a big high rez monitor or pixel peeping but the final output viewing of the images. For post processed images in 13 x 19 prints or 55 in tv I can’t see a significant difference. So why carry larger, heavier more expensive. Even 30 year color slides projected with a high quality projector and lens and 60 in screen look very good.

greg
Oh, this forum lol.

Not sure if you have access to an Olympus camera with Hi-Rez mode. But if you do, are you telling me right now that if you take an image in regular mode, and then immediately the same exact image with the same settings in hi-res mode, you won’t see the difference on a 4K monitor? My high resolution images coming from my OM5 even look better on my damn iPhone. It’s not just dpi.
I have MFT and Sony FE. For sure I can see a difference between 61Mpix and 20Mpix, 14 bit RAW etc on a 4k 32” monitor viewing a quarter of the image with the screen across a desk, ie filling my field of view.

Printed at 13” by 19”, I’m very doubtful I could see the difference. TVs are usually viewed at a distance.

Also the subject matter needs to have enough interesting detail that looking a bit closer makes sense. Landscapes can be like that, many other subjects not so much. I don’t regard looking closer at landscapes as pixel peeping, just as sub-plots and minor characters in novels are not unnecessary distractions.

Andrew
Sure. Add in an extraordinarily bright sky, with a very shadowed area as your subject, and the difference becomes even more pronounced. I’m only making a point that certain people on this forum tend to downplay real differences in sensor size to support their bias and preferred truth.

Sounds like you are like me and use both formats like me.

I only call these things out because I don’t think it helps new folks choose gear.
For me the extra cropping leeway of a high res FF body just lets me enjoy shooting with primes even more, it's like I get two primes out of each one I carry... And it's not even like I'm above cropping on M4/3, I've cropped many 16MP images down to 7-10MP that I'm very happy with (so around a 1.5x crop), but the FF body takes it to another level. I enjoyed toying with HR mode on my E-M5 II/III but it's not nearly as usable or convenient.

It's funny that some people tout the convenience of great IBIS (and it absolutely is, I've basically kept my E-M5 III for video, and a little bit of tele) because it frees you up from tripod use etc., but then trot out HR modes as the answer to higher res alternatives. 🤷

It's all definitely more of a want than a need tho, I'm no pro, I could still be shooting my E-M5 II and I'd be just as happy, except when it comes to tracking/C-AF which is what got me looking elsewhere. As good as the OM-1 looks it seems like they've still got room for improvement there, even if they stick with the same hardware. Hopefully OM recognizes that just as Oly did in the past.

Being able to point and recompose super reliably and have the camera track whatever I set the AF point on is pretty freeing.
 
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I think a full set of weather sealed f/1.4 primes are what the system needs. I only need a 25 and occasionally a 17.

There are just too many times when 35 is too long and 100 is too short for me. The 12-100 doesn't work for me on the long side. I have to carry two lenses and/or two bodies anyway. The 12-45 and 40-150 f/4 lenses work for me.

The 14-150 is a one-lense solution range for me but I only use it for travel because it's slow and not sharp on the long end. I'd like a 12-150 f/4 if it isn't too big and heavy. The 40-150 f/2.8 is light enough. Maybe it's possible.

I can get my head around the OM-5, the PL series, and an OM-10 f they make them. Not everybody needs Phase Detect AF I only need it for BIF and sports. The EM.3 works for me for everything else. I can make it work for sports and BIF if I have to. It's more difficult and the focus will not be as good in my experience. That's why I traded an EM1.2 for the OM-1. It was worth it. If sports wasn't the most important use for me, I would not have bought the OM-1 and would have been happy with the EM1.2 and M5.3. I was not unhappy with them.

Putting all the electronics of the OM-1 inside a smaller body may be problematic from space and heat constraints - always issues with electronics. If they can do it, at what parts cost? It might not be possible for MSRP up to $1,200 for the body. Faster, bigger in the same space with no more heat is always more expensive and more difficult with less mass for heat dissipation. Maybe in another generation. Maybe not. A lot of photographers don't need everything and OM-1 can do. I don't. And some I do.

Some FF bodies slow down when they heat up and aren't as capable when they do. It's an issue for all digital cameras. Heat = noise and slower processing speeds to avoid self-destruction. What other brands can do, OMS may not be able to do at a small scale with fewer resources but these are issues for all camera makers and none of them have achieved perfection at any price. The OM-1 competes effectively with bodies that cost from 50% to more than 100% more. Not in every measurement but most that are important to most photographers. It beats some more expensive cameras at some things. In their price range, this is mostly true for the EM10 and EM/OM-5 models as well. The full product range is competitive across the board in class and price range for most things photographers use cameras for. There are OM-1 owners who sometimes or often pick up an EM1, EM5, OM-5 or EM-10. I'm one of them. I use a PM2 sometimes when it's all I need. Nobody needs state-of-the-art all the time.

The manufacturing move timing was unfortunate. It might not have been a choice but it is also the case OLY Imaging suffered from bad executive management, even financial misdeeds. Hopefully, JIT will treat the business better.
 
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I bought a PL25/1.4 mk i used. Since WR isn't important for my use, it seemed a bargain at £250 (with warranty).

It's not that small but it is much lighter than its size suggests. My perspective is that it nudges the 20/1.4 in terms of IQ and it's close to my favourite FL. The 20/1.4 is weather sealed and has faster AF.

Used mk i and kit Panasonic lenses really are excellent value, provided they fit your needs.

Andrew
I was mostly okay with the price of the PL25 II tbh, I actually pre-ordered the thing out of principle as much as anything... For several years (as soon as Pana started doing Mk II updates) I kept saying the original PL25 was an obvious candidate for a sealed Mk II, I would've liked to see an aperture ring added too but that's no big deal, so when said update happened I put my money where my mouth was.

It's not even my favorite FL (I lean more towards 35mm equivalent) but at the time I really wanted something smaller than my 17/1.2 with sealing and/or better AF than the 20/1.7... Ironically my only really small and well sealed FF prime is a 24mm, so that's still not perfectly ideal, but they're all pretty fast at AF and I kinda like the 45/1.8 I've got at around the PL25's size (both have acceptable flaws for their size, for me anyway).

The PL25 almost seems underrated at this point, no it's not nearly as sharp wide open as more recent Pro/PL primes (barely catching up with the better f1.8 at similar f-stops), but that seems to have been used against it for too long despite all it's other nice attributes. Years earlier I'd used/borrowed the original PL25 a bunch tho, on a GM1 even, I can see why others might overlook it without first hand experience. I'd actually bought and gifted that original PL25 for like $500 US when the CAD/USD exchange was favorable, heh.
Janet recommended it. She has an eye for rendering.

Andrew
 
As long as it doesn't push the ISO up too much or the shutter speed down too much. The light-gathering advantage of the larger sensor goes away. In enough light, it does not matter.
The light advantage from a larger sensor never really goes away. The more light used to compose the same image, the better. The more light, the larger the file, the larger the file, the better the resolution, assuming around equal megapixels.
That is pretty funny, actually. Resolution is a factor only in as much as top quality lenses are used and that the subject(s) is in focus and that the shot is stabilized for the SS and focal length. I see many FF images posted in the landscape and macro forums where either there is not edge to edge sharpness because of lens performance or the photographer is trying to shoot without adequate stabilization. The result is often a nice composition, but a blurry mess of an image. Lots of MP's but little else. I see the same on 500 pics quite often.

If you had added "with a tripod and a top-end lens" you would be right.
 
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HR modes are no joke. Not just for resolution. Color fidelity, cleaner skies, smoothing bodies of water. Stacking is noise-reducing and DR increasing. It just doesn't work if anything except water is moving.

I want to try 25MP HR mode, not for more resolution. For these other benefits.
 
It's true that a FF sensor can recover a much greater range of EV past the proper exposure. I've seen it in real world uTUBE video comparisons between OM-1 and Z6II.
Unless motion in your scene limits your exposure time, the "proper exposure" would have no recovery at all on the high end, because you would have exposed right up to the point that important highlights were being clipped.
Since they aren't so important I'm happy with the M43 system for this use. Side by side or zooming in enough or high enough ISO and I might not say that but if I just look at the landscapes I have, they are more than good enough for me and everybody else I share them with. Nobody ever said I should have used a FF camera to take them. I don't need anything better than that. I want to be able to say look at this beautiful place, not look at the image quality of the photo, anywhere else that is, besides a DPR forum.
For sure. However, it's also important to note the same is true for an OM-1 vs the original EM-1. That is, the bar for "good enough" was passed long, long ago for the vast majority of photos people take at the sizes they are displayed. So much so that most people are more than satisfied with the results of smartphones nowadays.

For example, from my smartphone:

fddd6fa9b01f40daa70700bff17aa06d.jpg

Nothing striking, of course, and would have been better with a larger sensor system, but, if showing the photo to people at the size they would view it, do you think anyone would care about the differences, even if they noticed them?
And yet on this image (and I know you don't think cellphones are penultimate in IQ) I immediately see that the mountain on the left is not focused or not sharp. I see that because the mountain is bright in the image and my eyes gravitate to the mountain and not the foreground road and fence. This may just be DOF.
 
Gary, with a tripod and a top-end lens you have long exposure infinity for landscapes. For practical purposes, not lab tests, you can match the noise level exposure of the bigger sensor. If you sit or lean on something so you can shoot HH 10 seconds that will usually do it. I'm taking single-shot low-light photos with my OM-1 and a 25 f/1.8 prime my friend can't match with his Z6 because I can take a much longer HH exposure.

Furthermore, HHHR stacking improves DR and is noise-reducing when you can use it. There is so much data even in the jpg it's amazing how much shadow recovery you have without noise.

I agree with your comment about high-resolution sensors. I've compared 60MP FF sports images with 20MP M43 sports images and found the M43 images better because they were better focused or the lens was better both. The reason for the 60MP images was for giant prints, 5 feet wide but when they were blown up that much you can see they are out of focus. They could not be printed bigger than the files that came out of a lower-resolution camera. Think you are right that higher-resolution images require more accurate focus to make a better image if you are using the additional resolution to capture more detail.

More sensor resolution by itself does not always make a better image. You need the best glass to go with it and that sometimes isn't enough. I have a friend who has a Z9 and is not happy with it after more than a year of use. He says he still makes better images with his lower-resolution Nikon DSLRs. Maybe he isn't adjusted to his Z9 yet, but he's an engineer by profession and an excellent semi-pro photographer. I think 60MP may be too much resolution for the photography he's doing. He might do better with Z7 a pro photographer I know uses for sports. He loves it. He's been a working professional photographer since the 1960s and can use any system he wants. 40-50MP looks like a good limit for HR photography. Seems to work well for Canon too. There are additional IQ issues from smaller pixels. It will be interesting to see how good the Fuji 40MP ASP-C is.
 
The foreground mountains and forests are too dark and the sky is a weird color. Not a good image.
 
Gary, with a tripod and a top-end lens you have long exposure infinity for landscapes. For practical purposes, not lab tests, you can match the noise level exposure of the bigger sensor. If you sit or lean on something so you can shoot HH 10 seconds that will usually do it. I'm taking single-shot low-light photos with my OM-1 and a 25 f/1.8 prime my friend can't match with his Z6 because I can take a much longer HH exposure.

Furthermore, HHHR stacking improves DR and is noise-reducing when you can use it. There is so much data even in the jpg it's amazing how much shadow recovery you have without noise.

I agree with your comment about high-resolution sensors. I've compared 60MP FF sports images with 20MP M43 sports images and found the M43 images better because they were better focused or the lens was better both. The reason for the 60MP images was for giant prints, 5 feet wide but when they were blown up that much you can see they are out of focus. They could not be printed bigger than the files that came out of a lower-resolution camera. Think you are right that higher-resolution images require more accurate focus to make a better image if you are using the additional resolution to capture more detail.

More sensor resolution by itself does not always make a better image. You need the best glass to go with it and that sometimes isn't enough. I have a friend who has a Z9 and is not happy with it after more than a year of use. He says he still makes better images with his lower-resolution Nikon DSLRs. Maybe he isn't adjusted to his Z9 yet, but he's an engineer by profession and an excellent semi-pro photographer. I think 60MP may be too much resolution for the photography he's doing. He might do better with Z7 a pro photographer I know uses for sports. He loves it. He's been a working professional photographer since the 1960s and can use any system he wants. 40-50MP looks like a good limit for HR photography. Seems to work well for Canon too. There are additional IQ issues from smaller pixels. It will be interesting to see how good the Fuji 40MP ASP-C is.
The Z9 is a ~46MP body... Same as the Z7 II. 🙄
 
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I think a full set of weather sealed f/1.4 primes are what the system needs. I only need a 25 and occasionally a 17.

There are just too many times when 35 is too long and 100 is too short for me. The 12-100 doesn't work for me on the long side. I have to carry two lenses and/or two bodies anyway. The 12-45 and 40-150 f/4 lenses work for me.
Oh I don't use it as a sole lens, that's why it's on my second tiny body, 35-100 on a small body for tele needs and then I can have whatever wide I want on my FF body, tbh I was already doing that even when I was solely shooting M4/3. It's fun but definitely a more niche use case... The 40-150/4 could serve nearly as well, it just came out so much later that I'm not sure how much of the existing M4/3 market cared.
The 14-150 is a one-lense solution range for me but I only use it for travel because it's slow and not sharp on the long end. I'd like a 12-150 f/4 if it isn't too big and heavy. The 40-150 f/2.8 is light enough. Maybe it's possible.
I think that'd end up being a ~700-800g lens at best... (judging by what some other xx-150 f#-4 or xx-200 F4 lenses weigh). Your current combo is lighter than that, and definitely lighter on the body when mounted.
I can get my head around the OM-5, the PL series, and an OM-10 f they make them. Not everybody needs Phase Detect AF I only need it for BIF and sports.
Their CDAF-only bodies really don't cut it for me for more casual use cases that still benefit from C-AF, maybe I'm just terrible at pre-focusing and being johnny on the spot but I need some more help when it comes to kids or even shooting friends and family that aren't posing.
The EM.3 works for me for everything else. I can make it work for sports and BIF if I have to. It's more difficult and the focus will not be as good in my experience. That's why I traded an EM1.2 for the OM-1. It was worth it. If sports wasn't the most important use for me, I would not have bought the OM-1 and would have been happy with the EM1.2 and M5.3. I was not unhappy with them.

Putting all the electronics of the OM-1 inside a smaller body may be problematic from space and heat constraints - always issues with electronics. If they can do it, at what parts cost? It might not be possible for MSRP up to $1,200 for the body. Faster, bigger in the same space with no more heat is always more expensive and more difficult with less mass for heat dissipation. Maybe in another generation. Maybe not. A lot of photographers don't need everything and OM-1 can do. I don't. And some I do.

Some FF bodies slow down when they heat up and aren't as capable when they do. It's an issue for all digital cameras. Heat = noise and slower processing speeds to avoid self-destruction. What other brands can do, OMS may not be able to do at a small scale with fewer resources but these are issues for all camera makers and none of them have achieved perfection at any price. The OM-1 competes effectively with bodies that cost from 50% to more than 100% more. Not in every measurement but most that are important to most photographers. It beats some more expensive cameras at some things. In their price range, this is mostly true for the EM10 and EM/OM-5 models as well. The full product range is competitive across the board in class and price range for most things photographers use cameras for. There are OM-1 owners who sometimes or often pick up an EM1, EM5, OM-5 or EM-10. I'm one of them. I use a PM2 sometimes when it's all I need. Nobody needs state-of-the-art all the time.
You lost me there (for reasons stated above), the E-M10 & OM-5 aren't competitive when it comes to subject tracking and recognition IMO and that's not solely used for sports and birds. It's been an issue in their lineup for years now, the E-M5 III was an okay step to rectify it but the OM-5 is just an E-M5 III refresh. The OM-5 is still one of the best (only?) combinations of weather sealing, good IBIS, and a small body at it's price point, but the market doesn't seem to be valuing those things as much...

It's kinda ironic because CaNikon and Sony keep using IBIS as a market segmentation tool on APS-C and a differentiator for their top end model (if at all), but it doesn't seem to be hurting them a ton and/or they're just conceding the APS-C market has gone downhill. That'll be Fuji & M4/3's gain if said maket isn't totally gone and the big 3 stay on that path, but they're trying to lure people over to FF with the $1-1.5K bodies and it's probably working.

Fuji has managed to put OSPDAF on bodies large and small tho, Canon has managed to put DPAF on everything, Sony has OSPDAF on bodies large and small, and Pana has managed to put DFD all their bodies (remains to be seen what they do now that they also have OSPDAF), that's why I'm not willing to give Oly/OM a pass on that.
The manufacturing move timing was unfortunate. It might not have been a choice but it is also the case OLY Imaging suffered from bad executive management, even financial misdeeds. Hopefully, JIT will treat the business better.
Hopefully! I think the market is still better off with as many players and competition as possible, and M4/3 is certainly better off with two major 1st parties.
 
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My judgement between FF and m 4/3 or even apsc isn’t what I can see on a big high rez monitor or pixel peeping but the final output viewing of the images. For post processed images in 13 x 19 prints or 55 in tv I can’t see a significant difference. So why carry larger, heavier more expensive. Even 30 year color slides projected with a high quality projector and lens and 60 in screen look very good.

greg
Oh, this forum lol.

Not sure if you have access to an Olympus camera with Hi-Rez mode. But if you do, are you telling me right now that if you take an image in regular mode, and then immediately the same exact image with the same settings in hi-res mode, you won’t see the difference on a 4K monitor? My high resolution images coming from my OM5 even look better on my damn iPhone. It’s not just dpi.
I have MFT and Sony FE. For sure I can see a difference between 61Mpix and 20Mpix, 14 bit RAW etc on a 4k 32” monitor viewing a quarter of the image with the screen across a desk, ie filling my field of view.

Printed at 13” by 19”, I’m very doubtful I could see the difference. TVs are usually viewed at a distance.

Also the subject matter needs to have enough interesting detail that looking a bit closer makes sense. Landscapes can be like that, many other subjects not so much. I don’t regard looking closer at landscapes as pixel peeping, just as sub-plots and minor characters in novels are not unnecessary distractions.

Andrew
Sure. Add in an extraordinarily bright sky, with a very shadowed area as your subject, and the difference becomes even more pronounced. I’m only making a point that certain people on this forum tend to downplay real differences in sensor size to support their bias and preferred truth.

Sounds like you are like me and use both formats like me.

I only call these things out because I don’t think it helps new folks choose gear.
For me the extra cropping leeway of a high res FF body just lets me enjoy shooting with primes even more, it's like I get two primes out of each one I carry... And it's not even like I'm above cropping on M4/3, I've cropped many 16MP images down to 7-10MP that I'm very happy with (so around a 1.5x crop), but the FF body takes it to another level. I enjoyed toying with HR mode on my E-M5 II/III but it's not nearly as usable or convenient.

It's funny that some people tout the convenience of great IBIS (and it absolutely is, I've basically kept my E-M5 III for video, and a little bit of tele) because it frees you up from tripod use etc., but then trot out HR modes as the answer to higher res alternatives. 🤷

It's all definitely more of a want than a need tho, I'm no pro, I could still be shooting my E-M5 II and I'd be just as happy, except when it comes to tracking/C-AF which is what got me looking elsewhere. As good as the OM-1 looks it seems like they've still got room for improvement there, even if they stick with the same hardware. Hopefully OM recognizes that just as Oly did in the past.

Being able to point and recompose super reliably and have the camera track whatever I set the AF point on is pretty freeing.
Yep, I bought the a 7RV earlier this week and it’s pretty unbelievable. I’ve owned lots of cameras, but this one is about the only one that has blown me away. The Hi-Rez mode of my OM5 is nice, but this camera takes a Hi-Rez shot every time, and the body is a bit smaller than an OM1.

Yeah, the big plus with all that resolution is the ability to do some pretty extreme cropping.

Keeping my MFT stuff for when I need a long zoom.

The auto focus on the new Sony is nothing short of spectacular and they haven’t even issued the first firmware update yet.
 
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My judgement between FF and m 4/3 or even apsc isn’t what I can see on a big high rez monitor or pixel peeping but the final output viewing of the images. For post processed images in 13 x 19 prints or 55 in tv I can’t see a significant difference. So why carry larger, heavier more expensive. Even 30 year color slides projected with a high quality projector and lens and 60 in screen look very good.

greg
Oh, this forum lol.

Not sure if you have access to an Olympus camera with Hi-Rez mode. But if you do, are you telling me right now that if you take an image in regular mode, and then immediately the same exact image with the same settings in hi-res mode, you won’t see the difference on a 4K monitor? My high resolution images coming from my OM5 even look better on my damn iPhone. It’s not just dpi.
I have MFT and Sony FE. For sure I can see a difference between 61Mpix and 20Mpix, 14 bit RAW etc on a 4k 32” monitor viewing a quarter of the image with the screen across a desk, ie filling my field of view.

Printed at 13” by 19”, I’m very doubtful I could see the difference. TVs are usually viewed at a distance.

Also the subject matter needs to have enough interesting detail that looking a bit closer makes sense. Landscapes can be like that, many other subjects not so much. I don’t regard looking closer at landscapes as pixel peeping, just as sub-plots and minor characters in novels are not unnecessary distractions.

Andrew
Sure. Add in an extraordinarily bright sky, with a very shadowed area as your subject, and the difference becomes even more pronounced. I’m only making a point that certain people on this forum tend to downplay real differences in sensor size to support their bias and preferred truth.

Sounds like you are like me and use both formats like me.

I only call these things out because I don’t think it helps new folks choose gear.
For me the extra cropping leeway of a high res FF body just lets me enjoy shooting with primes even more, it's like I get two primes out of each one I carry... And it's not even like I'm above cropping on M4/3, I've cropped many 16MP images down to 7-10MP that I'm very happy with (so around a 1.5x crop), but the FF body takes it to another level. I enjoyed toying with HR mode on my E-M5 II/III but it's not nearly as usable or convenient.

It's funny that some people tout the convenience of great IBIS (and it absolutely is, I've basically kept my E-M5 III for video, and a little bit of tele) because it frees you up from tripod use etc., but then trot out HR modes as the answer to higher res alternatives. 🤷

It's all definitely more of a want than a need tho, I'm no pro, I could still be shooting my E-M5 II and I'd be just as happy, except when it comes to tracking/C-AF which is what got me looking elsewhere. As good as the OM-1 looks it seems like they've still got room for improvement there, even if they stick with the same hardware. Hopefully OM recognizes that just as Oly did in the past.

Being able to point and recompose super reliably and have the camera track whatever I set the AF point on is pretty freeing.
Yep, I bought the a 7RV earlier this week and it’s pretty unbelievable. I’ve owned lots of cameras, but this one is about the only one that has blown me away. The Hi-Rez mode of my OM5 is nice, but this camera takes a Hi-Rez shot every time, and the body is a bit smaller than an OM1.

Yeah, the big plus with all that resolution is the ability to do some pretty extreme cropping.

Keeping my MFT stuff for when I need a long zoom.

The auto focus on the new Sony is nothing short of spectacular and they haven’t even issued the first firmware update yet.
I have an OM1 and A7Riv. The A7Rv is 124g heavier than the OM1. The extreme dimensions are a bit smaller but the body is a lot thicker. The OM1 is easier for me to hold than the A7Riv.

I could imagine having a single system based around the A7Rv, now that IBIS and sensor cleaning are improved.

Functionality and lens choice differences make having two systems attractive for me.

Andrew
 
My judgement between FF and m 4/3 or even apsc isn’t what I can see on a big high rez monitor or pixel peeping but the final output viewing of the images. For post processed images in 13 x 19 prints or 55 in tv I can’t see a significant difference. So why carry larger, heavier more expensive. Even 30 year color slides projected with a high quality projector and lens and 60 in screen look very good.

greg
Oh, this forum lol.

Not sure if you have access to an Olympus camera with Hi-Rez mode. But if you do, are you telling me right now that if you take an image in regular mode, and then immediately the same exact image with the same settings in hi-res mode, you won’t see the difference on a 4K monitor? My high resolution images coming from my OM5 even look better on my damn iPhone. It’s not just dpi.
I have MFT and Sony FE. For sure I can see a difference between 61Mpix and 20Mpix, 14 bit RAW etc on a 4k 32” monitor viewing a quarter of the image with the screen across a desk, ie filling my field of view.

Printed at 13” by 19”, I’m very doubtful I could see the difference. TVs are usually viewed at a distance.

Also the subject matter needs to have enough interesting detail that looking a bit closer makes sense. Landscapes can be like that, many other subjects not so much. I don’t regard looking closer at landscapes as pixel peeping, just as sub-plots and minor characters in novels are not unnecessary distractions.

Andrew
Sure. Add in an extraordinarily bright sky, with a very shadowed area as your subject, and the difference becomes even more pronounced. I’m only making a point that certain people on this forum tend to downplay real differences in sensor size to support their bias and preferred truth.

Sounds like you are like me and use both formats like me.

I only call these things out because I don’t think it helps new folks choose gear.
For me the extra cropping leeway of a high res FF body just lets me enjoy shooting with primes even more, it's like I get two primes out of each one I carry... And it's not even like I'm above cropping on M4/3, I've cropped many 16MP images down to 7-10MP that I'm very happy with (so around a 1.5x crop), but the FF body takes it to another level. I enjoyed toying with HR mode on my E-M5 II/III but it's not nearly as usable or convenient.

It's funny that some people tout the convenience of great IBIS (and it absolutely is, I've basically kept my E-M5 III for video, and a little bit of tele) because it frees you up from tripod use etc., but then trot out HR modes as the answer to higher res alternatives. 🤷

It's all definitely more of a want than a need tho, I'm no pro, I could still be shooting my E-M5 II and I'd be just as happy, except when it comes to tracking/C-AF which is what got me looking elsewhere. As good as the OM-1 looks it seems like they've still got room for improvement there, even if they stick with the same hardware. Hopefully OM recognizes that just as Oly did in the past.

Being able to point and recompose super reliably and have the camera track whatever I set the AF point on is pretty freeing.
Yep, I bought the a 7RV earlier this week and it’s pretty unbelievable. I’ve owned lots of cameras, but this one is about the only one that has blown me away. The Hi-Rez mode of my OM5 is nice, but this camera takes a Hi-Rez shot every time, and the body is a bit smaller than an OM1.

Yeah, the big plus with all that resolution is the ability to do some pretty extreme cropping.

Keeping my MFT stuff for when I need a long zoom.

The auto focus on the new Sony is nothing short of spectacular and they haven’t even issued the first firmware update yet.
I have an OM1 and A7Riv. The A7Rv is 124g heavier than the OM1.
Hmm, specs say it's more like 66g, did one of the two make a boo boo with those? Not that it makes much difference...
The extreme dimensions are a bit smaller but the body is a lot thicker. The OM1 is easier for me to hold than the A7Riv.

I could imagine having a single system based around the A7Rv, now that IBIS and sensor cleaning are improved.
That hybrid display hinge too...
Functionality and lens choice differences make having two systems attractive for me.

Andrew
I'm keeping my M4/3 gear until the wheels fall off, but since my use case for it is pretty different I'm only interested in new bodies in the GX/PEN/E-PL lines and I'm not holding my breath for those. :(

Not like there's any viable alternative tho, Fuji's smaller bodies look nice but most of the teles I'd want (primes or fast zooms) are FF large, and Sony APS-C bodies are in limbo (and any small FF prime would be a sidegrade from the Oly 75/1.8, nothing like the 35-100/2.8, etc.). I'm willing and ready to buy a new small M4/3 body, a grey market E-P7 for $700+ is not it tho.
 
Whoops sorry. I thought 60MP. Had it confused. The owner still isn't happy with it. Maybe he needs a Z7.
 
My judgement between FF and m 4/3 or even apsc isn’t what I can see on a big high rez monitor or pixel peeping but the final output viewing of the images. For post processed images in 13 x 19 prints or 55 in tv I can’t see a significant difference. So why carry larger, heavier more expensive. Even 30 year color slides projected with a high quality projector and lens and 60 in screen look very good.

greg
Oh, this forum lol.

Not sure if you have access to an Olympus camera with Hi-Rez mode. But if you do, are you telling me right now that if you take an image in regular mode, and then immediately the same exact image with the same settings in hi-res mode, you won’t see the difference on a 4K monitor? My high resolution images coming from my OM5 even look better on my damn iPhone. It’s not just dpi.
I have MFT and Sony FE. For sure I can see a difference between 61Mpix and 20Mpix, 14 bit RAW etc on a 4k 32” monitor viewing a quarter of the image with the screen across a desk, ie filling my field of view.

Printed at 13” by 19”, I’m very doubtful I could see the difference. TVs are usually viewed at a distance.

Also the subject matter needs to have enough interesting detail that looking a bit closer makes sense. Landscapes can be like that, many other subjects not so much. I don’t regard looking closer at landscapes as pixel peeping, just as sub-plots and minor characters in novels are not unnecessary distractions.

Andrew
Sure. Add in an extraordinarily bright sky, with a very shadowed area as your subject, and the difference becomes even more pronounced. I’m only making a point that certain people on this forum tend to downplay real differences in sensor size to support their bias and preferred truth.

Sounds like you are like me and use both formats like me.

I only call these things out because I don’t think it helps new folks choose gear.
For me the extra cropping leeway of a high res FF body just lets me enjoy shooting with primes even more, it's like I get two primes out of each one I carry... And it's not even like I'm above cropping on M4/3, I've cropped many 16MP images down to 7-10MP that I'm very happy with (so around a 1.5x crop), but the FF body takes it to another level. I enjoyed toying with HR mode on my E-M5 II/III but it's not nearly as usable or convenient.

It's funny that some people tout the convenience of great IBIS (and it absolutely is, I've basically kept my E-M5 III for video, and a little bit of tele) because it frees you up from tripod use etc., but then trot out HR modes as the answer to higher res alternatives. 🤷

It's all definitely more of a want than a need tho, I'm no pro, I could still be shooting my E-M5 II and I'd be just as happy, except when it comes to tracking/C-AF which is what got me looking elsewhere. As good as the OM-1 looks it seems like they've still got room for improvement there, even if they stick with the same hardware. Hopefully OM recognizes that just as Oly did in the past.

Being able to point and recompose super reliably and have the camera track whatever I set the AF point on is pretty freeing.
Yep, I bought the a 7RV earlier this week and it’s pretty unbelievable. I’ve owned lots of cameras, but this one is about the only one that has blown me away. The Hi-Rez mode of my OM5 is nice, but this camera takes a Hi-Rez shot every time, and the body is a bit smaller than an OM1.

Yeah, the big plus with all that resolution is the ability to do some pretty extreme cropping.

Keeping my MFT stuff for when I need a long zoom.

The auto focus on the new Sony is nothing short of spectacular and they haven’t even issued the first firmware update yet.
I have an OM1 and A7Riv. The A7Rv is 124g heavier than the OM1.
Hmm, specs say it's more like 66g, did one of the two make a boo boo with those? Not that it makes much difference...
The extreme dimensions are a bit smaller but the body is a lot thicker. The OM1 is easier for me to hold than the A7Riv.

I could imagine having a single system based around the A7Rv, now that IBIS and sensor cleaning are improved.
That hybrid display hinge too...
Functionality and lens choice differences make having two systems attractive for me.

Andrew
I'm keeping my M4/3 gear until the wheels fall off, but since my use case for it is pretty different I'm only interested in new bodies in the GX/PEN/E-PL lines and I'm not holding my breath for those. :(

Not like there's any viable alternative tho, Fuji's smaller bodies look nice but most of the teles I'd want (primes or fast zooms) are FF large, and Sony APS-C bodies are in limbo (and any small FF prime would be a sidegrade from the Oly 75/1.8, nothing like the 35-100/2.8, etc.). I'm willing and ready to buy a new small M4/3 body, a grey market E-P7 for $700+ is not it tho.
Maybe Camera Size has the wrong weight for the A7Rv. The Rv is surprisingly heavier than the Riv.

I’m very happy with the OM1, although it’s bigger than my preference. Don’t know what I’d replace the GM1 with, if it died. Maybe a fixed lens body.

Andrew
 
About 10 years ago I attended an industry event in which a group had been hired to take photos of guests. I was not the photographer.

Each person stood against a background, and then the photographer, using reasonable Canon equipment (I think an old 5D) stood about 6 feet away and and shot flash *directly* at the face.

I think anyone who charges money for taking photos should need a license.
 
It is a shame the 40-150 f/4 was late but might be adopted if slowly. The size/weight is great for me. I can leave the f/2.8 at home most of the time and give up nothing but a bigger bag, size, and weight. It's a joy for me to be able to take this kit to work or an all-day carry. The FL range is perfect for a lot of sporting events and f4 is fast enough I'msualy outdoors and shooting between f/5 and f/11.

A lot of people don't care about subject tracking and don't need it. I'm one of them. I only use it for sports and don't need or use it for anything else. SAF uses CDAF and it's more accurate. Used it for years. Takes more concentration and skill but it works. If I didn't sell sports photos it would be good enough for me but if I didn't have PDAF I could live without it as I did for years.

I thought the OM-5 was a dud but it seems to be selling pretty well. The people buying it must think it's best for them and in it's class competitive. I'll stick with the EM5.3 for now and use the OM-1 when I need it.
 
My judgement between FF and m 4/3 or even apsc isn’t what I can see on a big high rez monitor or pixel peeping but the final output viewing of the images. For post processed images in 13 x 19 prints or 55 in tv I can’t see a significant difference. So why carry larger, heavier more expensive. Even 30 year color slides projected with a high quality projector and lens and 60 in screen look very good.

greg
Oh, this forum lol.

Not sure if you have access to an Olympus camera with Hi-Rez mode. But if you do, are you telling me right now that if you take an image in regular mode, and then immediately the same exact image with the same settings in hi-res mode, you won’t see the difference on a 4K monitor? My high resolution images coming from my OM5 even look better on my damn iPhone. It’s not just dpi.
I have MFT and Sony FE. For sure I can see a difference between 61Mpix and 20Mpix, 14 bit RAW etc on a 4k 32” monitor viewing a quarter of the image with the screen across a desk, ie filling my field of view.

Printed at 13” by 19”, I’m very doubtful I could see the difference. TVs are usually viewed at a distance.

Also the subject matter needs to have enough interesting detail that looking a bit closer makes sense. Landscapes can be like that, many other subjects not so much. I don’t regard looking closer at landscapes as pixel peeping, just as sub-plots and minor characters in novels are not unnecessary distractions.

Andrew
Sure. Add in an extraordinarily bright sky, with a very shadowed area as your subject, and the difference becomes even more pronounced. I’m only making a point that certain people on this forum tend to downplay real differences in sensor size to support their bias and preferred truth.

Sounds like you are like me and use both formats like me.

I only call these things out because I don’t think it helps new folks choose gear.
For me the extra cropping leeway of a high res FF body just lets me enjoy shooting with primes even more, it's like I get two primes out of each one I carry... And it's not even like I'm above cropping on M4/3, I've cropped many 16MP images down to 7-10MP that I'm very happy with (so around a 1.5x crop), but the FF body takes it to another level. I enjoyed toying with HR mode on my E-M5 II/III but it's not nearly as usable or convenient.

It's funny that some people tout the convenience of great IBIS (and it absolutely is, I've basically kept my E-M5 III for video, and a little bit of tele) because it frees you up from tripod use etc., but then trot out HR modes as the answer to higher res alternatives. 🤷

It's all definitely more of a want than a need tho, I'm no pro, I could still be shooting my E-M5 II and I'd be just as happy, except when it comes to tracking/C-AF which is what got me looking elsewhere. As good as the OM-1 looks it seems like they've still got room for improvement there, even if they stick with the same hardware. Hopefully OM recognizes that just as Oly did in the past.

Being able to point and recompose super reliably and have the camera track whatever I set the AF point on is pretty freeing.
Yep, I bought the a 7RV earlier this week and it’s pretty unbelievable. I’ve owned lots of cameras, but this one is about the only one that has blown me away. The Hi-Rez mode of my OM5 is nice, but this camera takes a Hi-Rez shot every time, and the body is a bit smaller than an OM1.

Yeah, the big plus with all that resolution is the ability to do some pretty extreme cropping.

Keeping my MFT stuff for when I need a long zoom.

The auto focus on the new Sony is nothing short of spectacular and they haven’t even issued the first firmware update yet.
I have an OM1 and A7Riv. The A7Rv is 124g heavier than the OM1. The extreme dimensions are a bit smaller but the body is a lot thicker. The OM1 is easier for me to hold than the A7Riv.

I could imagine having a single system based around the A7Rv, now that IBIS and sensor cleaning are improved.

Functionality and lens choice differences make having two systems attractive for me.

Andrew
I just shot street for about two hours. Normally I’d use my OM5 or EM10 IV, but since getting this RV, I just can’t stop using it because the AF is in a different galaxy. Should be for the price difference, but still.

With the 35 1.8, it’s pretty compact and light, especially for the horsepower it has.
Almost autofocus perfection and the ability crop a ton makes it a lot of fun.

This is the first camera I’ve used with stabilization on par with my Olympus cameras. Not as refined, but I think it’s pretty close.

The screen that fully articulates, as well as just tilts is brilliant. I have from a good source that through a firmware update, Sony is going to add the ability to toggle between three different. F stops with one button and that’s a neat idea.

Lastly, nobody talks about it, but the new metering introduced on this camera is excellent. I don’t have to do a lot of exposing to the right with this.

I just giggle while shooting with this camera. It’s so good.
 
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You have -+3EV of recovery in both directions with the OM1.
That simply means you underexposed by 3 stops. Ideally, one will have *zero* recovery on the high end, but the ideal may not be achieved due to motion blur and/or DOF constraints.
There is no reason to expose to the right because 3EV is a lot of recovery.
That's like saying there's no need for a sharp lens 'cause the consumer lens is plenty sharp.
In the photo below where you see a bridge and people walking across it that started as a jpg, not RAW and that area was pitch black. I didn't think the sensor picked up anything in those shadows. I saw nothing there with my eyes. Of course this also illustrates HHRM cannot be used even for slow-walking people. It does work for people posing if you want a lot of detail in the background. With this much shadow recovery in a jpg and more with a RAW presumably, it is good enough for me. It just isn't usable for motion.

That wooden bridge on the left with two people walking across it, that area was as black as a coal mine. I didn't see anything in there but black. I was amazed that anything showed up in recovery. There is a lot of DR in this composition. Bright, direct sunlight and dark shadow and all of it looks good. The sky is smooth and clean on a hazy day. The colors are good. There is very little noise in the dark shadow-recovered areas. There are more enhancements in HHHR mode than resolution. I'm more impressed with that than I am with the additional resolution. I'm going to see how a 25MP file works when I want better IQ but not more resolution. This would have been a good opportunity to try the 25MP HHHR photo.
Any chance you can post the OOC jpg and/or RAW?
You are wrong about noise.
Not really, but let's discuss.
I didn't bookmark the chart that shows the OM-1 sensor is not generating noise at ISO800 and below but I know I saw it. It had the Z6 sensor included in the test. The way the curve works out, from ISO400 to ISO800 the noise curve on the OM is pretty flat but it rises on the Z6. Not what I expected.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say, no, ISO 800 is definitely more noisy than ISO 400 on an OM1 (and every other camera):



d9326ab06d04413d9b9a56a7b084627d.jpg.png

I'm not arguing the OM-1 beats the Z6 in low-light capture, noise or shadow recovery. The Z6 wins. Z6 shadow recovery is +- 6EV if I remember correctly. Much better. It helps in extreme DR situations but when you have that much DR in the composition you need to think about using HDR anyway or find better lighting.
For the same exposure and more or less same sensor tech, FF has more or less two stops noise and one stop DR over mFT.
Setting the lab test aside, they don't always map perfectly over practical application. I'm looking for how the system works in the field. If the OM-1 recovers this much detail out of a totally black area of a jpg photo without delivering a grainy, noisy mess, with this IQ, I don't need anything that does it better.
If it's good enough for you, I won't tell you it isn't.
Photos where highlights were blown out, were not exposed correctly. There is no problem with this inside an 8EV DR range. 8EV is enough for all but extreme situations where you probably won't try to make a photo. The OM-1 DR range is more than 9.
Again, if the DR from the OM1 is good enough for you, I won't tell you it isn't.
Since I didn't bookmark the noise lab test you are going to have to post one that shows the FF sensor produces less noise from ISO800 and less but also produces a noticeable difference in a real-world image because I make photos, not lab tests. IMO if I have to use a longer exposure or a faster lens I'm going to be able to match the noise level of the FF sensor with the M43 camera.
Well, yeah -- if you use two stops greater exposure with mFT, then you'll match the noise levels of FF.
I can handhold the OM1 for ten seconds to do it if I can sit or lean on something. On a tripod, there is no time limit. For a single-image landscape, the FF camera can have more resolution. Nothing more. In most cases more than a 6EV range is not necessary so it doesn't help much as a practical matter.
FF can fire off as many shots as they like and stack and merge in post (software does alignment). The difference is convenience. And your example below at 1/320 is far, far, far from sharp *anywhere* in the frame.
You can produce a test that will show one system is better than another one but it could be only true for the test. If the system has the capability to capture the image, no greater capability adds anything to the effort.
True, there's the "good enough" clause. However, there is reason for better than "good enough" -- photos that are better than "good enough" have more latitude in processing, which gives more options.
5a34da19bb6048708d8cc531f07429ce.jpg

Regarding your cell phone landscape, it's a terrible photo that demonstrates a situation where a cell phone works poorly. The sky is a weird color and the mountains and the trees in the foreground are too dark, and lack detail. I'd delete it.
I won't argue against your opinion -- its is a snap from a smartphone, after all -- but given the lack of detail in the photo above, well, I'm not sure what you're trying to say other than you seem to like the lack of detail in your photo but don't like it in mine.

Either way, let me make it crystal clear -- I'm not saying FF is better for you (or anyone else). I'm simply saying that it has advantages that may, or may not, be worth the differences in size, weight, price and operation. And, of course, there's considerable diversity in FF cameras. For example, the Canon RP and Sony A7R5 are both FF, but are worlds apart in almost every aspect aside, of course, from both being able to produce nice photos in many circumstances.
 

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