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Using a Flash on Fash Moving Targets (Toddlers!)

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Zoba132

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Hi everyone!

So based on the previous thread, I picked GODOX TT350f and has been playing around it for a week now. I spend time reading and watching Flash tutorials: TTL, when to use manual mode, Flash Power lever, use Shutter speed to properly expose the background, etc etc.

I'm working on all of those, but on stationary targets. The reason I got the flash to being with, was to help me taking pictures of my kids in-door. In order to avoid blurry pictures. as they moving a LOT, I mostly set my shutter speed to be around 250-500 in day light.

But as Shutter speed used to expose the background when using flash - at least on the tutorials I have seen - I'm not sure how to apply all that when I actually NEED a specific shutter speed. Also, Above 250x, mean I will be starting to see black bar.

So I guess what I'm looking for is couple of guidelines how to turn those stationary photography flash tips, into situations where shutter speed is important for me (or perhaps a link for something that talk about those object).

Thanks!
 
Zoba132 said:
Any tips of how to bounce it? there's multiple way (at the shoulder, over the shoulder, at the ceiling, etc etc. The Flash also have White card, so I assume I can even use it.
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The built in white card is for directing a small amount of light forwards when you are bouncing off the ceiling. It reduces shadows on the face.

You are over complicating things again. Provided the ceiling is white, just bounce it off the ceiling. A 60 degree angle is fine. Experiment if you want to.

Stop watching YouTube videos and start shooting some images of your children instead.
 
Thank you! So for now, I don't think I should think about the artistic value of where the light shining from. Sounds a bit too much to think of right now. So if the direction of the flash is all about finding the whiting closest wall around me, I can do that :-)

What about the White Card connected to the flash? how can one use it?
 
Zoba132 said:
Klaus dk said:
Like the previous posters have said: use TTL with your max sync speed.

Bounce the flash off the ceiling or neutrally coloured walls to get more even distribution of light, and shoot raw + jpeg for the extra exposure headroom, in case you need it.
Click to expand...
The flash has a build-in white card, and I have seen multiple people using multiple flash direction (shoulder, back etc). So why for example I want to air my flash to the ceiling, and when facing toward my back? or use build-in white card? I assume all means "bouncing".
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No, not quite. The "bounce card" is to be used when you're pointing the flash straight up, but want to send a little light forward, typically to fill under the eyebrows and give a little catchlight in the eyes. My personal opinion on this is, that for a small extra cost it makes the flash look fancy, but it has a very small effective range.

I have not (yet) watched this tutorial by Neil van Niekerk, but he's one of the really reliable proponents of on-camera bounce flash, so I think it's worth looking at.
Zoba132 said:
Zoba132 said:
When it comes to fast moving kids, take many photos, they won't all be keepers, but so what?

Another thought: Google for pictures "Family photojournalist". I think there's a lot of inspiration in those photos: don't take you camera out to take photos, carry it around the house and snap pictures everywhere all the time (without flash) until the family learns to ignore its presence and act naturally. Even toddlers sit quietly, sometimes for several seconds. Use P mode and auto ISO. Content trumps noise.
Click to expand...
Moving with the camera always at hand so the toddlers can get used to it - is a brilliant tip. Thank you!
Click to expand...
Note that, although "without flash" is in parantheses, it's a very significant part of the FPJ technique.

Good luck and good light.
 
Zoba132 said:
So I guess that while now I understand the Flash also freeze movement. I'm not sure WHY. There's a lot of light in a clear day outside. But if set a slow shutter speed for, things WILL get blurry.
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Read his post again. It’s quite clear how to balance ambient vs. flash.
Zoba132 said:
So how comes with an external illumination (which is not as strong as the sun obviously), I can still freeze at slower shutter speed? It's the same mechanism - so why that works?
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Not obvious at all. Depends on the exposure that you set for ambient light.
 
Zoba132 said:
Any tips of how to bounce it? there's multiple way (at the shoulder, over the shoulder, at the ceiling, etc etc. The Flash also have White card, so I assume I can even use it.
Click to expand...
Your options are almost limitless, unless you have a strongly colored wall. Then it picks up the wall color. Don't overthink this too much; it costs virtually nothing to shoot so experiment. Try some bounced off the ceiling, then maybe some off the back wall, then maybe some off a side wall. The light will produce slightly different shadows depending on how you bounce, so pick the ones you like the best. There's not really a hard-and-fast rule. What the others who replied have said would have been the same things I would have said.

Good luck and happy shooting!
 
Klaus dk said:
I have not (yet) watched this tutorial by Neil van Niekerk, but he's one of the really reliable proponents of on-camera bounce flash, so I think it's worth looking at.
Click to expand...
Wow, only watched like couple of minute s- but it looks like a super useful tutorial. Thank you!

Also, you mentioned I should set my shutter speed at the flash sync point (which is 180 on my camera by the way).But in a dark scene, this, means I can see nothing on my LCD/Viewfinder (because everything is super dark). So I can only see what I'm shooting after I click the shutter speed.

Also, can't take a lot of picture it seems, the flash recycle time, is quite slow. I assume it's because it's 2 batteries entry point Flash (and I noticed some things like ISO affect that - I still need to invest time researching it out). But I assume there is an option to burst-flash.
 
techie takes pics said:
Picture your camera in a dark room pointed at some moving object, with the shutter open.
If you flash a light you will get a picture of that object while it was illuminated.
Outside the flash you won't record any light because there wasn't any.

If you do this outside, the difference is the darkened room. It's not dark. So you record everything that is going on... plus the flash of light.
Click to expand...
So I'm still confused by that. Because now it makes sense why shutter speed doesn't matter on DARK room, because you only get a single picture - the moment the flash fire. So nothing gets blurred. But on most condition, you going to have some ambient light AND flash, so you going to have the same issue with blurry movement?
techie takes pics said:
Camera to Manual, ISO too. Take a picture but underexpose. Play with some settings like aperture to capture more or less light, and S to capture more light+motion.
Underexpose, so your S is too fast or the A is too high - or both.

This is your baseline picture. Any motion that is there on a slow shutterspeed will be recorded.

Keep the settings but now add flash to capture enough light. You will get a properly exposed picture.
But all the motion you had in your baseline image is still there. All the background-light that was dimly iluminated in your baseline image - it's still there.
Click to expand...
Exactly. All the motion, is still there, even with the flash.
 
It does. Thank you.

So, it's clear why in pitch dark room, shutter speed doesn't matter, because you will only get an image when there's flash light.

Also, 10 ambient and 90 as you mentioned, will have minimal blur. But I dare to say that in, for example - indoor shoot, using your living room light, it's more like 40-60? so Flash will be less likely to prevent motion blur if there's other lights around it?
 
Yea thank you. I did couple of times, along with other, and now I think I understand better how to shut ambience light out, in order to the flash to have better magnitude on the lighting.
 
Zoba132 said:
Yea thank you. I did couple of times, along with other, and now I think I understand better how to shut ambience light out, in order to the flash to have better magnitude on the lighting.
Click to expand...
It’s worth mentioning that if you “pan” your shots (move the camera to follow the subject), that will tend to blur any residual background.

If there’s insufficient ambient light, the camera might have difficulty focussing the subject. Maybe use manual focus in that case.
 
Zoba132 said:
Klaus dk said:
I have not (yet) watched this tutorial by Neil van Niekerk, but he's one of the really reliable proponents of on-camera bounce flash, so I think it's worth looking at.
Click to expand...
Wow, only watched like couple of minute s- but it looks like a super useful tutorial. Thank you!
Click to expand...
You're welcome. Also check The Strobist's 101 on lighting. It's dated, but light is light.
Zoba132 said:
Also, you mentioned I should set my shutter speed at the flash sync point (which is 180 on my camera by the way).But in a dark scene, this, means I can see nothing on my LCD/Viewfinder (because everything is super dark). So I can only see what I'm shooting after I click the shutter speed.
Click to expand...
You can (probably, I don't know your camera and I'm too lazy to find the manual) turn off exposure simulation of the VF. This means the VF will show you the scene much like it does, when auto exposure is set, regardless of your exposure settings. Remember to turn exposure simulation on again when you've finished using flash.
Zoba132 said:
Also, can't take a lot of picture it seems, the flash recycle time, is quite slow. I assume it's because it's 2 batteries entry point Flash
Click to expand...
... most likely, yes ...
Zoba132 said:
(and I noticed some things like ISO affect that - I still need to invest time researching it out). But I assume there is an option to burst-flash.
Click to expand...
I don't understand what you mean by "an option to burst-flash".
 
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Chris R-UK said:
Zoba132 said:
Chris R-UK said:
The duration of the flash burst is 1/1000 to 1/20,000, so, if flash is the main illumination, it will freeze motion. Try it.
Click to expand...
So the value here that important for freezing motion would be the flash BURST rather than the Shutter speed?
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You don't set the flash burst duration, the camera does.
Click to expand...
The camera doesn't set a flash duration. It might set a flash power which indirectly correlates to a flash duration but to say the camera sets the flash duration is incorrect.
Chris R-UK said:
It is the method the camera uses to control the flash exposure - longer burst/more light, shorter burst/less light.
Click to expand...
Also not 100% true. Depends on the type of strobe you are using. A voltage regulated strobe would give you the shortest duration and full power (most light). IGBT on the other hand would work as you described.
 
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Zoba132 said:
It does. Thank you.

So, it's clear why in pitch dark room, shutter speed doesn't matter, because you will only get an image when there's flash light.

Also, 10 ambient and 90 as you mentioned, will have minimal blur. But I dare to say that in, for example - indoor shoot, using your living room light, it's more like 40-60? so Flash will be less likely to prevent motion blur if there's other lights around it?
Click to expand...
This of course depends on the background, the speed of the movement, and how much you'll allow the movement to be seen. Do some experiments at home, I'm sure you'll be surprised by the results.

I took a shot of a very well lit meeting room last night in P mode, just to get an idea of the light level. The resulting parameters were ISO 5000, 1/250 s, f/4.5. At a shutter speed of 1/160 s, that would have been ISO 3200. The difference is five stops or about 3% ambient to 97% flash, if you had been shooting at ISO 100. I'm sure a normal living room is darker.

Some flash meters will show you the flash/ambient ratio, but the cheap ones won't, and for an amateur beginner, I'd say a flash meter is seriously overkill.
 
Klaus dk said:
Like the previous posters have said: use TTL with your max sync speed.

Bounce the flash off the ceiling or neutrally coloured walls to get more even distribution of light, and shoot raw + jpeg for the extra exposure headroom, in case you need it.

When it comes to fast moving kids, take many photos, they won't all be keepers, but so what?

Another thought: Google for pictures "Family photojournalist". I think there's a lot of inspiration in those photos: donkt take you camera out to take photos, carry it around the house and snap pictures everywhere all the time (without flash) until the family learns to ignore its presence and act naturally. Even toddlers sit quietly, sometimes for several seconds. Use P mode and auto ISO. Content trumps noise.

Good luck and good light.
Click to expand...
Klaus is right. If you have to fuss with your camera, you will never get the best pictures of children, and maybe not even good pictures.

You need a SIMPLE procedure. A VERY simple procedure. Which you can do instantly without thinking, every time without fail. If you miss the moment, who cares if the face is modeled with perfect lighting, with the perfect blend of direct and indirect light from different light, from different directions?

So however you do it, you need a procedure that is so simple that you can just turn on the camera and flash, focus if the camera isn't smart enough to do it, and snap the shutter whenever you want, without thinking about the camera.
 
LordKOTL said:
Your options are almost limitless, unless you have a strongly colored wall.
Click to expand...
Amen. OK, all you bounce flash gurus, WHAT DO YOU DO if the walls and ceiling are green, or too far away, or varying in distance?
 
Pan like, clicking half-way the shutter speed for focus and then move around? Is there a difference if the object moves and the camera is static vs if the object is static and the camera is moving? both will cause "motion blur"?
 
Klaus dk said:
I took a shot of a very well lit meeting room last night in P mode, just to get an idea of the light level. The resulting parameters were ISO 5000, 1/250 s, f/4.5. At a shutter speed of 1/160 s, that would have been ISO 3200. The difference is five stops or about 3% ambient to 97% flash, if you had been shooting at ISO 100. I'm sure a normal living room is darker.
Click to expand...
That indeed doesn't sounds too bad. As you mentioned, this is very theoretical. I will be playing around with it today at home :)

Thanks!
 
Klaus dk said:
You can (probably, I don't know your camera and I'm too lazy to find the manual) turn off exposure simulation of the VF. This means the VF will show you the scene much like it does, when auto exposure is set, regardless of your exposure settings. Remember to turn exposure simulation on again when you've finished using flash.
Click to expand...
Right! found it! This is actually so important, that I set a hot-key specifically to turn it on and off. That's a mandatory option for using flash.
Klaus dk said:
Klaus dk said:
(and I noticed some things like ISO affect that - I still need to invest time researching it out). But I assume there is an option to burst-flash.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
So I noticed the flash recycle slower on ISO 200, compared to higher ISO. I'm not completely sure why, maybe there's another parameters at work here. But what I mentioned, is that I assume - you can use Burst mode with a flash, but I guess you need a specific Flash or settings for that.
 
Yea, I still trying to find the right procedure. Often flash would be too strong or too weak based on the ambient light, so I need to compensate it on the flash. So it's almost always I need to "Try" the flash for the first time, tweak it - and only then I can take a decent picture.

Add all the things you mentioned: Settings Shutter speed, turn on the flash, make sure the focus pick the right target etc etc, and it's so easy to miss that important moment.

Add to that you can really takes a LOT of picture in a short time, because flash recycle time - it makes it's pretty hard to get a decent flashed photo as a newbie. I'm starting to "miss' things I didn't think I would miss when I got the X-T20. For example, and ISO dial. Changing ISO with the buttons is a bit slow. I might need to play around again with the shortcuts.
 
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