Lumix S5II slaps A7 IV

I hope Sony will finally wake up, now that Panasonic has PDAF.

- Panasonic supports its cameras years after release with FW updates, Sony doesn't.

- Panasonic IBIS seems to be on another level.

- L mount f/1.8 prime lenses: all weather sealed, same filter size, cheap covers from 18mm to 85mm. Sony f/1.8 primes lack weather sealing gaskets (35 and 85mm), the 50mm is outdated, only the 20mm G has the complete package.

- Panasonic has a dual sync IS weather sealed 75-300mm. Sony's 75-300 doesn't have a weather sealing gasket and no dual sync IS.

- Sony's pixel shift function is unacceptable. It should be an in camera processing, with a final RAW file. It's going to hurst even more when Panasonic introduces a handheld version with the S1-II.

Sony needs to improve their prime lens lineup quality and in camera processing.

MILC man said:

Paisley Park said:

dazzerfong said:

Interceptor121 said:

The A9 II is not attractive £3,999 for a fast 24 megapixel body that is now matched by the R6II. I believe that proposition is dead

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The fact that you unironically believe that it's an equal matching just based on the burst speed tells me all I need to know.

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an a9II is a no go camera for most people: low megapixels,

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so according to you the s5ii is a no go because it's also 24mp.

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It's fine at the price point, and has a pixel shift mode just in case.

MILC man said:

MILC man said:

stack sensor image quality penalty,

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none

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There's a big dip in DR with current stacked sensors.

MILC man said:

MILC man said:

old processors,

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process 2x more real-time sensor data than any camera in this thread.

MILC man said:

old menus,

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wrong

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It has the old menus. Are going to deny that ? It's a fact the a9II uses the old orange sony menu system.

MILC man said:

MILC man said:

old AF,

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sony real-time tracking on a stacked sensor is better af than anything you've used.

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Completely useless without subject recognition. Canon's new dual pixel AF has surpassed it, and now Panasonic.

MILC man said:

MILC man said:

no update support from Sony.

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came to troll, but failed, lol

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Paisley Park said:

MILC man said:

Paisley Park said:

dazzerfong said:

Interceptor121 said:

The A9 II is not attractive £3,999 for a fast 24 megapixel body that is now matched by the R6II. I believe that proposition is dead

Click to expand...

The fact that you unironically believe that it's an equal matching just based on the burst speed tells me all I need to know.

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an a9II is a no go camera for most people: low megapixels,

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so according to you the s5ii is a no go because it's also 24mp.

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It's fine at the price point, and has a pixel shift mode just in case.

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no, your claim was "low megapixels" and you can't change how wrong that was by trying to add conditions to it.

your entire post was a fail and this post is failing again, just like you've always done with all of your dpr accounts.

Paisley Park said:

Paisley Park said:

Paisley Park said:

stack sensor image quality penalty,

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none

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There's a big dip in DR with current stacked sensors.

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the a9ii is a circa-2017 sensor and this is 2023.

fail again.

Paisley Park said:

Paisley Park said:

Paisley Park said:

old processors,

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process 2x more real-time sensor data than any camera in this thread.

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crickets

you fail again.

Paisley Park said:

Paisley Park said:

Paisley Park said:

old menus,

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wrong

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It has the old menus. Are going to deny that ? It's a fact the a9II uses the old orange sony menu system.

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it's a fact that you don't need the menu system with any sony camera, because sony has "my menu" and the best button customization of any system.

fail, again.

Paisley Park said:

Paisley Park said:

Paisley Park said:

old AF,

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sony real-time tracking on a stacked sensor is better af than anything you've used.

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Completely useless without subject recognition.

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wrong again.

Competition is good for Sony too. This S5II is the biggest game changer in the low megapixel camera market, it's actually the best 24MP camera available on the market. Nothing really comes close.

Paisley Park said:

Competition is good for Sony too.

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panasonic tiny market share is not competition for sony.

this s5ii isn't going to change that, the sensor readout speed for instance is dog-slow, the entire camera is just a hardware re-hash of existing technology.

panasonic made a horrible mistake with dfd, and now they are years behind everyone else.

panasonic lenses for instance were hardware-designed for cdaf/dfd, and now they have to be magically re-purposed for ospdaf :-0 judging by the weak af examples in the dprtv video, panasonic has a long ways to go.

Paisley Park said:

This S5II is the biggest game changer in the low megapixel camera market,

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the biggest game changer at 24mp was the a9 back in 2017, nothing else has ever come close to that.

the fact that sony is still able to sell that same stacked sensor in the a9ii proves how good the performance is.

Paisley Park said:

I hope Sony will finally wake up, now that Panasonic has PDAF.

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didnt you watch the video showing its af is very slow, my a6300 would be faster.

Paisley Park said:

- Panasonic supports its cameras years after release with FW updates, Sony doesn't.

- Panasonic IBIS seems to be on another level.

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watched a utube comparing the a74 to the om1 in video mode run and gun and i honestly couldnt tell the difference between them (surprised me as well) .oops the reviewer wasn't expecting that. but the a74 was using the electronic stabilization in video. which is actually where i need it. stills, no comparison, but i rarely use it for stills anyway.

Paisley Park said:

- L mount f/1.8 prime lenses: all weather sealed, same filter size, cheap covers from 18mm to 85mm. Sony f/1.8 primes lack weather sealing gaskets (35 and 85mm), the 50mm is outdated, only the 20mm G has the complete package.

- Panasonic has a dual sync IS weather sealed 75-300mm. Sony's 75-300 doesn't have a weather sealing gasket and no dual sync IS.

- Sony's pixel shift function is unacceptable. It should be an in camera processing, with a final RAW file. It's going to hurst even more when Panasonic introduces a handheld version with the S1-II.

Sony needs to improve their prime lens lineup quality and in camera processing.

Click to expand...

Nirurin said:

Interceptor121 said:

This is not about the entire lumix range is about the S5II and how it is positioned which is a challenger to the A7IV with functionality and construction well in excess perhaps the autofocus is not yet on par but both cameras are fairly slow

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The S5ii reviews all compare it to the A7iii, and say it's a contender and good value for money. Which it is.

The A7iv is still a better camera. You get what you pay for. (This has also been stated by all the same reviewers that you have talked about in this thread).

Nirurin said:

In addition the A7IV a camera with a price tag of £2,499 has actually worse EVF/LCD combo. Can't believe the low resolution LCD that sits on that camera

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I love hyperbole on the internet.

I agree, the A7iv should have had a better lcd. But then I also use it, and have literally never noticed any issues or ever thought to myself "hmm if only this was better, I'd be able to take this photograph". It would be nice, but far down the list of needed upgrades.

The main thing about the S5ii which tempts me, and which are reasons why I hope the S5ii is successful, are things like handheld pixel-shift and live bulb and suchlike features.

My hope is that having a cheap camera body on the market with those features, pushes sony to release another A7iii-tier upgrade generation (eg. big upgrade features, low pricing).

I'm tempted by the S5ii body, as it's a great feature set for the price. But L-mount lenses....

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Totally agree that the LCD is not the biggest issue. I was disappointed how the A74 did not have as many new usability upgrades at the hardware level as I would like. The pana added one. Shocking no one else does the other low hanging fruit. I upgraded for the changing of lenses with the shutter protection which Canon had and Sony was forced to do. The menus while better were not the biggest issue as well. I got used to the old ones.

Sony will bring out new A7C II which will be A74 like, maybe with a few improvements over so don't hold your breath. Will be a killer 2nd body. Also sounds like if rumours true the A7000 might also come in 2023 and that will be another option for Sony eco. The APSC eco another advantage for Sony whereas Pana is 4/3 and Fuji is ApsC and medium.

I was hoping this announcement would mean Sony would start caring more about customers, but sounds like from this thread not the case. What I mean is some new firmware with new features to compete with S5ii.

I imagine in 2-3 yrs when get A7V and S5iii the reviews maybe different if Sony keeps on its improvement curve and Pana improves the S5iii as much as the S5ii. Same of the R6 in that timeframe. Could also be that Sony held off on those in A74 as increased to 33MP and A7V will be about perf improvements and hopeful new feature/usability improvements. More AI. I think Canon's and Nikon lack of third party lenses will haunt them. Love Sigma f1.4 primes and Tamron zooms and Sony killed it with 20mm f1.8 on the budget side. Good to know that there is another option other than Canon.

When I invested in Sony they had few lenses. Boy has that changed. It will change in 2-3 yrs for Pana so lack of lenses will not be an issue in next round.

River Photography said:

Paisley Park said:

I hope Sony will finally wake up, now that Panasonic has PDAF.

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didnt you watch the video showing its af is very slow, my a6300 would be faster.

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I wonder if something they can fix in firmware. Gerald Undone found an issue and they improved it. If not then need to wait to S5iii

Member said:

Member said:

- Panasonic supports its cameras years after release with FW updates, Sony doesn't.

- Panasonic IBIS seems to be on another level.

Click to expand...

watched a utube comparing the a74 to the om1 in video mode run and gun and i honestly couldnt tell the difference between them (surprised me as well) .oops the reviewer wasn't expecting that. but the a74 was using the electronic stabilization in video. which is actually where i need it. stills, no comparison, but i rarely use it for stills anyway.

Member said:

- L mount f/1.8 prime lenses: all weather sealed, same filter size, cheap covers from 18mm to 85mm. Sony f/1.8 primes lack weather sealing gaskets (35 and 85mm), the 50mm is outdated, only the 20mm G has the complete package.

- Panasonic has a dual sync IS weather sealed 75-300mm. Sony's 75-300 doesn't have a weather sealing gasket and no dual sync IS.

- Sony's pixel shift function is unacceptable. It should be an in camera processing, with a final RAW file. It's going to hurst even more when Panasonic introduces a handheld version with the S1-II.

Sony needs to improve their prime lens lineup quality and in camera processing.

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MrMillett9 said:

River Photography said:

Paisley Park said:

I hope Sony will finally wake up, now that Panasonic has PDAF.

Click to expand...

didnt you watch the video showing its af is very slow, my a6300 would be faster.

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I wonder if something they can fix in firmware. Gerald Undone found an issue and they improved it. If not then need to wait to S5iii

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i think its more than that ,go and watch Tony N review of the s5ii against the a73. his facial expressions were a dead giveaway.

MrMillett9 said:

MrMillett9 said:

MrMillett9 said:

- Panasonic supports its cameras years after release with FW updates, Sony doesn't.

- Panasonic IBIS seems to be on another level.

Click to expand...

watched a utube comparing the a74 to the om1 in video mode run and gun and i honestly couldnt tell the difference between them (surprised me as well) .oops the reviewer wasn't expecting that. but the a74 was using the electronic stabilization in video. which is actually where i need it. stills, no comparison, but i rarely use it for stills anyway.

MrMillett9 said:

- L mount f/1.8 prime lenses: all weather sealed, same filter size, cheap covers from 18mm to 85mm. Sony f/1.8 primes lack weather sealing gaskets (35 and 85mm), the 50mm is outdated, only the 20mm G has the complete package.

- Panasonic has a dual sync IS weather sealed 75-300mm. Sony's 75-300 doesn't have a weather sealing gasket and no dual sync IS.

- Sony's pixel shift function is unacceptable. It should be an in camera processing, with a final RAW file. It's going to hurst even more when Panasonic introduces a handheld version with the S1-II.

Sony needs to improve their prime lens lineup quality and in camera processing.

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Nirurin said:

Interceptor121 said:

This is not about the entire lumix range is about the S5II and how it is positioned which is a challenger to the A7IV with functionality and construction well in excess perhaps the autofocus is not yet on par but both cameras are fairly slow

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The S5ii reviews all compare it to the A7iii, and say it's a contender and good value for money. Which it is.

The A7iv is still a better camera. You get what you pay for. (This has also been stated by all the same reviewers that you have talked about in this thread).

Nirurin said:

In addition the A7IV a camera with a price tag of £2,499 has actually worse EVF/LCD combo. Can't believe the low resolution LCD that sits on that camera

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I love hyperbole on the internet.

I agree, the A7iv should have had a better lcd. But then I also use it, and have literally never noticed any issues or ever thought to myself "hmm if only this was better, I'd be able to take this photograph". It would be nice, but far down the list of needed upgrades.

The main thing about the S5ii which tempts me, and which are reasons why I hope the S5ii is successful, are things like handheld pixel-shift and live bulb and suchlike features.

My hope is that having a cheap camera body on the market with those features, pushes sony to release another A7iii-tier upgrade generation (eg. big upgrade features, low pricing).

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exactly

Nirurin said:

I'm tempted by the S5ii body, as it's a great feature set for the price. But L-mount lenses....

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Better late than never, will likely buy the x model, or wait a bit when S5ii users ditch for the X, horrible strategy imo.



will go with the simple kit lens, see how it compares to my current A7iv and Tamron 20-40. Might keep it around for the anamorphic options, will definitely ask for a loaner.

Paisley Park said:

Competition is good for Sony too. This S5II is the biggest game changer in the low megapixel camera market, it's actually the best 24MP camera available on the market. Nothing really comes close.

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Which was my point really

what matters to most is functionality and ergonomics

if you look at what the S5II offers live composite hand held Hr shot, good jpegs, excellent user interface, great build quality with no shortcuts for the price point is really impressive

now while I see why I would spend more for the canon R6II I can’t see that many will spend £500 for the A7IV that may have an edge on autofocus and a few pixels more but functionality wise and build wise is inferior and now feels overpriced

I don’t believe there is a market for 33 megapixels full frame cameras that are also slow

I see in essence 4 segments

24 megapixels entry level

24-32 that are fast for action sport

40-50 megapixels that are both fast and high resolution

>50 megapixels high resolution cameras

the first segment is where the lix s5II is

canon is in segment 2 with both low and high price point

the premium is where a1 r5 z9 are

last is the R segment

considering Sony was first in mirrorless full frame what I see is that competition is catching up and 3 years update cycles with limited software updates are not the place to be. Nikon canon and panasonic all keep improving their cameras and sony has to wake up

thats why I wrote slaps the a7IV

Mr_Win said:

Better late than never, will likely buy the x model, or wait a bit when S5ii users ditch for the X, horrible strategy imo.

will go with the simple kit lens, see how it compares to my current A7iv and Tamron 20-40. Might keep it around for the anamorphic options, will definitely ask for a loaner.

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If you are happy with APSC 4K and the rolling shutter it has this is a fine camera good for general purpose with many features you don’t find at this or other price point on emount

where it gets complicated is long lenses the offering is solid but limited

wide standard medium no issues

this camera is important as it creates competition in the lower segment without taking features away hopefully this drives sony to improve their range
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River Photography said:

Another troll post, isnt your A1 ready to be returned ? at the next buyers expense.

Rp

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Totally inappropriate post not sure what the mods are waiting to delete it

Interceptor121 said:

Paisley Park said:

Competition is good for Sony too. This S5II is the biggest game changer in the low megapixel camera market, it's actually the best 24MP camera available on the market. Nothing really comes close.

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Which was my point really

what matters to most is functionality and ergonomics

if you look at what the S5II offers live composite hand held Hr shot, good jpegs, excellent user interface, great build quality with no shortcuts for the price point is really impressive

now while I see why I would spend more for the canon R6II I can’t see that many will spend £500 for the A7IV that may have an edge on autofocus and a few pixels more but functionality wise and build wise is inferior and now feels overpriced

I don’t believe there is a market for 33 megapixels full frame cameras that are also slow

I see in essence 4 segments

24 megapixels entry level

24-32 that are fast for action sport

40-50 megapixels that are both fast and high resolution

>50 megapixels high resolution cameras

the first segment is where the lix s5II is

canon is in segment 2 with both low and high price point

the premium is where a1 r5 z9 are

last is the R segment

considering Sony was first in mirrorless full frame what I see is that competition is catching up and 3 years update cycles with limited software updates are not the place to be. Nikon canon and panasonic all keep improving their cameras and sony has to wake up

thats why I wrote slaps the a7IV

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it couldnt slap the a73 . Tony nearly couldnt help himself laughing in front of the camera. the s52 shot 3 frames per second in afc.


Rp

Interceptor121 said:

River Photography said:

Another troll post, isnt your A1 ready to be returned ? at the next buyers expense.

Rp

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Totally inappropriate post not sure what the mods are waiting to delete it

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The Sony forum members have already voted on this issue.

So far all you have done is bash Sony. And then you post "Bait" threads like this one with out even owning either of the cameras.

Rp

Really starting to looking into whether I should sell my A7IV. The S5ii looks great to me.

Comparing both :

AF : Sony (although the reviews I've seen show that the S5ii is great too at least in video)

IBIS : Panasonic

EVF/LCD : Panasonic

Handling / Ergonomics : Panasonic (personal taste)

Video features : Panasonic

Lens selection : Sony

Support : Panasonic (based on past experiences using both brands)

Price : Panasonic

I'm really now wondering where Sony beats the Panasonic except for AF and lens selections (which is important don't get me wrong). But the AF from the Panasonic still looks great from many of the reviews I've seen especially in video. It may be more hesitant in AFC for stills but should be good enough for my use.

What really kills my interest in Sony is the lack of support and addition of features as time goes by. Also generally the handling of the camera does not feel as nice as other brands.

D4vith said:

Really starting to looking into whether I should sell my A7IV. The S5ii looks great to me.

Comparing both :

AF : Sony (although the reviews I've seen show that the S5ii is great too at least in video)

IBIS : Panasonic

EVF/LCD : Panasonic

Handling / Ergonomics : Panasonic (personal taste)

Video features : Panasonic

Lens selection : Sony

Support : Panasonic (based on past experiences using both brands)

Price : Panasonic

I'm really now wondering where Sony beats the Panasonic except for AF and lens selections (which is important don't get me wrong). But the AF from the Panasonic still looks great from many of the reviews I've seen especially in video. It may be more hesitant in AFC for stills but should be good enough for my use.

What really kills my interest in Sony is the lack of support and addition of features as time goes by. Also generally the handling of the camera does not feel as nice as other brands.

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Pretty much my point of view if you were starting fresh you would not look at emount now in that segment

Panasonic is not present in the high speed part of the market where Sony has company from Canon and Nikon now but has a high resolution camera that will be refreshed soon

I bought an S5 two years ago it only had one 1.8 prime now there are 20 between 1.8 and 2

MILC man said:

Interceptor121 said:

MILC man said:

ActionPhotoPassion said:

Mainstream?

Do you consider second hand when you say that? Because the mainstreamness of stacked sensor for new bodies is clearly far from now..

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not with sony.

the a9 came out in 2017, you can pick up a used one for $1880-$1987 from keh, for instance.

20fps electronic shutter, with stacked sensor accuracy and tracking absolutely destroys the s5ii when it comes to shooting stills... plus you get to choose from a huge selection of lenses, with linear voice coil af, l-mount lens selection is total joke in comparison.

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This is a wild exageration

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you are an m4/3 owner with little sony experience.

MILC man said:

First Lumix S lenses all have linear focus and limited breathing and second the A9 II may shoot nice stills but at £3,999 is not in the competitive place anymore now that the R6II is out

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i said a9, not a9ii, because the a9 is under $2000.

the r6ii does not have a stacked sensor, at $2500 canon priced it that way because canon knows that it's a lower class of camera in many respects, with lousy video af as i already proved.

canon is so desperate to sell the r6ii that they kept the pricing the same as what the r6 was released at; that's how weak the r6ii market is.

MILC man said:

The S5II is for general purpose is not a sport shooter camera and the segment of the A9 remains smaller and specialist.

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many a9 owners use it for weddings and event shooting, because of the xlnt af... the s5ii is not competitive there.

in the last few years sony has taken press agency contracts from canikon, in fact three of the biggest press agency contracts on the planet, and they did that in large part because of the a9/a9ii.

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The A9 mark 1 can't be taken into consideration. It's an "old" camera. You can't shoot e-shutter with flash and the e-shutter isn't always reliable. And it's not "current"

As for photography wedding it seems that Sony is still behind Canon and Nikon. And the most used Sony seems to be the A7iii.

Anyway 8 years from now is a long way... Until there the Lumix S, Canon R, and Nikon Z will have more clients/prospects and Sony will have new things too.

Talking about the L-mount lens lineup reminds me when ppl were talking about the lens lineup of E-mount when there was A7 and A7ii... So no problem here for Panasonic neither.

yysc said:

Interceptor121 said:

ActionPhotoPassion said:

yysc said:

Interceptor121 said:

yysc said:

Interceptor121 said:

Puppy2007 said:

What you save on the body you'll spend on the limited selection of lenses. Not a big deal (unless video is your primary goal).

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https://www.panasonic.com/global/consumer/lumix/s/L-Mount.html#02

There are over 60 lenses though some are leica there is the low range sigma that are also small

Personally I have other issues with L-mount namely the lack of housing for underwater use compared to Sony however other than some limitation on the long tele where they lack both zoom and primes you don't have too many gaps at all

Now I would not buy an A7IV neither a Lumix S5II but if I was starting fresh and did not have stringent requirement on specific disciplines I would definitely get the S5II

I hope this is a wake up call for Sony that have got a bit sloppy lately in their mid range I think they have made the choice of more pixels instead of more functionality and that is not the right one

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Dpreview TV says for stills, AF wise is at A7 III level. A7 IV clearly outclasses the S5 II.

Video wise is somehow better than A7 IV (except in AF) but still share similar weaknesses like slow readout speed or cropped 4K60. There are better cameras for this than either of these two.

I don't see many reasons for Sony to be nervous, tbh. This camera won't rescue Lumix FF out of market irrelevance.

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I don’t think so when almost every single reviewers says this is the best value for money including sony supported ones

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Saying it is best value for money while true it's just a part of the reality.

Very limited people (if any) will sell their A7 IV for a S5 II to lose money in the change, get worse photo capabilities and just small video improvements (while retaining many of the same limitations).

And factoring the significantly worse lens ecosystem. If you are in Sony there is an upgrade path in case you want it. My Sony lenses can be mounted to an A1 tomorrow if I wish so.

Buying into L Mount still takes you into the unknown, will they ever release a stacked camera sensor? Doubtful and if they do they'll do it years after it becomes mainstream in the top players.

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Mainstream?

Do you consider second hand when you say that? Because the mainstreamness of stacked sensor for new bodies is clearly far from now..

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People that buy an A7iV camera don’t buy an A1 and viceversa

Sony was first in entry level full frame camera it is good Panasonic is right there and this camera feels more a prime product as well for the price

very interesting proposition not for me I don’t buy in entry level full frame but many do it seems

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We've seen people in this forum upgrading from A7 IV to A1. When A1 II releases used A1 will become more attractive for a broader spectrum of buyers. Same with A9 II when A9 III releases (expected soon).

Currently the A9 II (new) sits price wise in between A7 IV and A1. Then you get the hi-res bodies for maximum IQ.

All the above gives you options, in Lumix you've got the S5 II (which for photo AF-C is like A7 III, better in video but still 4K60 crop) or the rest of the line-up with "Death From Defocus" only (which AF-C wise are worse than a smartphone), and limited lens selection.

I see no slap.

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If this camera is a A7iii like then Panasonic hit correctly as I read 6 times more wedding togs with A7iii than A9.