Panasonic PDAF is coming

Simon97 said:

If the Panasonic flagship photo camera were to be developed, I wonder which direction they would take? There's the 20mp stacked Sony IMX472 sensor which seems to be used in the OM1, or they might want to use a 25MP sensor like the one used in the GH6.

Sensors are a costly part of cameras (especially the faster ones used in higher end models). I can see them using the same or similar sensor used in the GH6. Perhaps there is/will be a PDAF version. Purchasing the sensor from the same source may save on the manufacturing costs.

Click to expand...

Panasonic still owns a share of tower semiconductors that is said to have developed the GH6 sensor

However Panasonic did not use Tower for any of their consumer devices until the GH6

The S5 sensor was made by Sony and is relatively straight forward to ask Sony for one of their many variety of phase detection autofocus

Interceptor121 said:

Simon97 said:

If the Panasonic flagship photo camera were to be developed, I wonder which direction they would take? There's the 20mp stacked Sony IMX472 sensor which seems to be used in the OM1, or they might want to use a 25MP sensor like the one used in the GH6.

Sensors are a costly part of cameras (especially the faster ones used in higher end models). I can see them using the same or similar sensor used in the GH6. Perhaps there is/will be a PDAF version. Purchasing the sensor from the same source may save on the manufacturing costs.

Click to expand...

Panasonic still owns a share of tower semiconductors that is said to have developed the GH6 sensor

However Panasonic did not use Tower for any of their consumer devices until the GH6

The S5 sensor was made by Sony and is relatively straight forward to ask Sony for one of their many variety of phase detection autofocus

Click to expand...

Is it? I thought the phase detection masking and array implementations were patented by the respective camera manufacturers.

unhappymeal said:

Interceptor121 said:

Simon97 said:

If the Panasonic flagship photo camera were to be developed, I wonder which direction they would take? There's the 20mp stacked Sony IMX472 sensor which seems to be used in the OM1, or they might want to use a 25MP sensor like the one used in the GH6.

Sensors are a costly part of cameras (especially the faster ones used in higher end models). I can see them using the same or similar sensor used in the GH6. Perhaps there is/will be a PDAF version. Purchasing the sensor from the same source may save on the manufacturing costs.

Click to expand...

Panasonic still owns a share of tower semiconductors that is said to have developed the GH6 sensor

However Panasonic did not use Tower for any of their consumer devices until the GH6

The S5 sensor was made by Sony and is relatively straight forward to ask Sony for one of their many variety of phase detection autofocus

Click to expand...

Is it? I thought the phase detection masking and array implementations were patented by the respective camera manufacturers.

Click to expand...

No Sony Semiconductor Company (indenpendent subsidiary of Sony) sells their AF technology to all mobile phone manufacturers you see around including Apple, Huawei, LG etc

There is no masking required in Sony implementation, the masking was Olympus patent which I really hope Panasonic will not use

Interceptor121 said:

unhappymeal said:

Interceptor121 said:

Simon97 said:

If the Panasonic flagship photo camera were to be developed, I wonder which direction they would take? There's the 20mp stacked Sony IMX472 sensor which seems to be used in the OM1, or they might want to use a 25MP sensor like the one used in the GH6.

Sensors are a costly part of cameras (especially the faster ones used in higher end models). I can see them using the same or similar sensor used in the GH6. Perhaps there is/will be a PDAF version. Purchasing the sensor from the same source may save on the manufacturing costs.

Click to expand...

Panasonic still owns a share of tower semiconductors that is said to have developed the GH6 sensor

However Panasonic did not use Tower for any of their consumer devices until the GH6

The S5 sensor was made by Sony and is relatively straight forward to ask Sony for one of their many variety of phase detection autofocus

Click to expand...

Is it? I thought the phase detection masking and array implementations were patented by the respective camera manufacturers.

Click to expand...

No Sony Semiconductor Company (indenpendent subsidiary of Sony) sells their AF technology to all mobile phone manufacturers you see around including Apple, Huawei, LG etc

There is no masking required in Sony implementation, the masking was Olympus patent which I really hope Panasonic will not use

Click to expand...

Ah ok. I am pretty sure I also saw a patent floating around for every 12th row masking owned by Nikon and then another one for every 4th row green masking (https://www.j-platpat.inpit.go.jp/?...EB4931A31E6F11E9EC1634AD20ABD35B5D40FD6/11/en). I also think Canon holds the DPAF patent.

unhappymeal said:

Interceptor121 said:

unhappymeal said:

Interceptor121 said:

Simon97 said:

If the Panasonic flagship photo camera were to be developed, I wonder which direction they would take? There's the 20mp stacked Sony IMX472 sensor which seems to be used in the OM1, or they might want to use a 25MP sensor like the one used in the GH6.

Sensors are a costly part of cameras (especially the faster ones used in higher end models). I can see them using the same or similar sensor used in the GH6. Perhaps there is/will be a PDAF version. Purchasing the sensor from the same source may save on the manufacturing costs.

Click to expand...

Panasonic still owns a share of tower semiconductors that is said to have developed the GH6 sensor

However Panasonic did not use Tower for any of their consumer devices until the GH6

The S5 sensor was made by Sony and is relatively straight forward to ask Sony for one of their many variety of phase detection autofocus

Click to expand...

Is it? I thought the phase detection masking and array implementations were patented by the respective camera manufacturers.

Click to expand...

No Sony Semiconductor Company (indenpendent subsidiary of Sony) sells their AF technology to all mobile phone manufacturers you see around including Apple, Huawei, LG etc

There is no masking required in Sony implementation, the masking was Olympus patent which I really hope Panasonic will not use

Click to expand...

Ah ok. I am pretty sure I also saw a patent floating around for every 12th row masking owned by Nikon and then another one for every 4th row green masking (https://www.j-platpat.inpit.go.jp/?...EB4931A31E6F11E9EC1634AD20ABD35B5D40FD6/11/en). I also think Canon holds the DPAF patent.

Click to expand...

The patent relates to the image reconstruction from the pixels that do no form an image

Sony technology does not have dedicated pixels to autofocus which means no artefacts are created


If you look at Photonstophotos Energy spectra diagrams you see something like this





The peaks are the PDAF pixels rows/columns

This is my Sony A1





It presents itself like a contrast detect camera as there is no mask





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Interceptor121 said:

ProDude said:

Interceptor121 said:

I wonder what exactly

• Image plane phase detection AF / Contrast AF
• DFD technology

Means. PDAF and DFD work differently DFD is a subset of contrast AF with distance mapping. The issue with DFD is that is slow and flutters. Slow means it misses flutter is mostly an issue in video on static subjects but this has been already virtually eliminated with the focus limiter setting in the GH6

The sensor seems the same Sony that was previously on the S5 I wonder how the PDAF implementation works hopefully not like old olympus models

Click to expand...

Pretty simple really. The DFD is used when on a static subject and very accurate indeed without issues. When in C-AF and a moving subject Phase Detection is used.

Click to expand...

A static subject does not need DFD, this was a solution for moving subjects to speed up the contrast detection

Contrast detection is the most accurate focus method, the only thing that phase detection does is to increase speed

Click to expand...

Let's not forget DFD is their baby. So will likely be included as the Contrast Detection phase of operation.

glassoholic said:

Satyaa said:

SHood said:

The full specs for the S5ii were leaked and shows PDAF. The only question now is when a Panasonic m43 body will be released with this.

https://asobinet.com/info-rumor-dc-s5m2-spec/

Image phase detection AF / Contrast AF
DFD Technology

Click to expand...

Personally, I am not interested in FF.

Let's see if they come out with an m43 model with PDAF before I buy an OM-1.

A stills oriented G9.II with PDAF would be a winner.

Click to expand...

I am almost praying that Panasonic smash their AF out of the park with a Lidar/ Schmidar/ Depth Whilst Hopping On One Leg/ PDAF (Please Do Auto Focus (properly)).

OM Systems/ JIP still have a learner plate affixed IMHO, and a future with m43 and Pannaboy is indeed a bright one (and an insurance policy for m43 and my current catalogue of lenses).

Click to expand...

OMDS cannot have the backup resources to be a major player in the digital camera world. But they can be an innovative player for niche and quality products and that is good.

But M4/3 needs Panasonic for the big(ger) market presence and despite the volume of love for Olympus on this forum without some serious new product releases from Panasonic the M4/3 product line will be quite skimpy.

Brand new O-M1 - great, makeover 0M-5 - at least they keep the brand alive. Nothing wrong with that. Next? ..... when?

Next Panasonic? ..... when? (aka 'who cares?').

Not that I need yet another Panasonic body as the whole world knows that I am fixated with near 10-year old Panasonic hi-tech Maybe I am happy with what I have but there must be lots of others who could be happy with their first PanaDS camera body - or is it OMsonic?

But your stubbornness with DFD cost you a sale with me, Panasonic. Maybe two sales. Both with m43 and FF.

I could accept DFD/contrast detect with your entry level cameras costing a few hundred bucks. But when you try to play with the big boys and charge over a grand for a camera, you'd better come out with guns blazing.


Nice of you to come around with PDAF. FF, that ship has sailed for me, sorry, you've missed that shot. But for m43, if PDAF ever trickles down to that format, I'll consider you more seriously.

bluevellet said:

But your stubbornness with DFD cost you a sale with me, Panasonic. Maybe two sales. Both with m43 and FF.

I could accept DFD/contrast detect with your entry level cameras costing a few hundred bucks. But when you try to play with the big boys and charge over a grand for a camera, you'd better come out with guns blazing.

Nice of you to come around with PDAF. FF, that ship has sailed for me, sorry, you've missed that shot. But for m43, if PDAF ever trickles down to that format, I'll consider you more seriously.

Click to expand...

I don't think Panasonic has the slightest interest in photography users on MFT in fact they are releasing a full frame camera with PDAF

MFT is for video

As far as I know, and I acknowledge lack of technical expertise.

PDAF it quick as it effectively triangulates the distance to the subject something after the style of an optical rangefinder. Being electronic it should be much quicker than doing it optically. In its crudest form it must only work to a single point of focus, but I can accept that technology has advanced enough to allow multiple point PDAF.

CDAF is more accurate but as it tries to find the point of highest contrast it tends to overshoot and then backup to the point of highest contrast. Things have come a long way since early CDAF where read points of contrast must have been spaced further apart and several iterations of closer and closer reading were needed (hunting). Presumably with modern processors the CD reads are closer together and with the advantage of out of focus DFD tech the camera has a better idea of just how far away from focus the first read might be. In other words and in my basic understanding. Good DFD and CDAF will recognise distant of near OOF and proceed quite rapidly towards good focus and take multiple close reads of the satet of the CDAF as it approaches the point of focus. Then stop and back up the microsecond when the CDAF focus falls off. Hence the 'wobble' in C-AF. Made quite a lot worse if heavy lens elements have to be moved significantly to obtain good focus.

(I can be corrected however) I think that all PDAF systems have a certain amount of CDAF built in to finesse the actual focus point(s) found by PDAF. Of course DFD is an attempt to find the first take distance out of focus and can probably be incremented in real time as the traverse proceeds. Whereas this can be very quick in S-AF the overshoot and backup to best focus is presumably the issue that gets the grumbles - especially where the point of focus is changing as in video recording.

Tom Caldwell said:

As far as I know, and I acknowledge lack of technical expertise.

PDAF it quick as it effectively triangulates the distance to the subject something after the style of an optical rangefinder. Being electronic it should be much quicker than doing it optically. In its crudest form it must only work to a single point of focus, but I can accept that technology has advanced enough to allow multiple point PDAF.

CDAF is more accurate but as it tries to find the point of highest contrast it tends to overshoot and then backup to the point of highest contrast. Things have come a long way since early CDAF where read points of contrast must have been spaced further apart and several iterations of closer and closer reading were needed (hunting). Presumably with modern processors the CD reads are closer together and with the advantage of out of focus DFD tech the camera has a better idea of just how far away from focus the first read might be. In other words and in my basic understanding. Good DFD and CDAF will recognise distant of near OOF and proceed quite rapidly towards good focus and take multiple close reads of the satet of the CDAF as it approaches the point of focus. Then stop and back up the microsecond when the CDAF focus falls off. Hence the 'wobble' in C-AF. Made quite a lot worse if heavy lens elements have to be moved significantly to obtain good focus.

(I can be corrected however) I think that all PDAF systems have a certain amount of CDAF built in to finesse the actual focus point(s) found by PDAF. Of course DFD is an attempt to find the first take distance out of focus and can probably be incremented in real time as the traverse proceeds. Whereas this can be very quick in S-AF the overshoot and backup to best focus is presumably the issue that gets the grumbles - especially where the point of focus is changing as in video recording.

Click to expand...

All autofocus system work on contrast. Phase detection on sensor is a way to estimate where to put the focus motors in one step instead of 2 steps of DFD. The main benefit is speed

The issue with DFD is that it defocuses so it flutters in video. Otherwise the system that Panasonic has now holds pretty well compared to my other camera (Sony A1) that does not have any form of subject detection

If you remove the flutter for video use at 60fps even with phase detect there will be a small lag on fast moving subjects simply because there is a lag between recalculation and adjustement of the next frame

As a paradox the DFD video issue is more of an issue on static subjects when the camera starts to resample this has been largely eliminated in the GH6 by introducing the focus limiter in software

PDAF instead will benefit more photos with continuous autofocus where the sensor is running much faster to focus until you shoot. Here I have currently situations where my GH5M2 won't even focus on a not very fast bird and my A1 totally nails the same bird at 20 fps

For single AF it won't matter at all

Better late than never but the S5 sensor readout at very slow rate. I doubt burst will get to more than 10 fps we will see

SHood said:

The full specs for the S5ii were leaked and shows PDAF. The only question now is when a Panasonic m43 body will be released with this.

https://asobinet.com/info-rumor-dc-s5m2-spec/

Image phase detection AF / Contrast AF
DFD Technology

Click to expand...

In view of Panasonic’s statements on camera development and business strategy, my question is “ if a Panasonic m43 body will be released with this”

Tom Caldwell said:

OMDS cannot have the backup resources to be a major player in the digital camera world. But they can be an innovative player for niche and quality products and that is good.

But M4/3 needs Panasonic for the big(ger) market presence and despite the volume of love for Olympus on this forum without some serious new product releases from Panasonic the M4/3 product line will be quite skimpy.

Brand new O-M1 - great, makeover 0M-5 - at least they keep the brand alive. Nothing wrong with that. Next? ..... when?

Next Panasonic? ..... when? (aka 'who cares?').

Not that I need yet another Panasonic body as the whole world knows that I am fixated with near 10-year old Panasonic hi-tech Maybe I am happy with what I have but there must be lots of others who could be happy with their first PanaDS camera body - or is it OMsonic?

Click to expand...

I would nearly bet a years salary that Panasonic will NOT come out with what would be a HUGE success story and good seller. A G9MkII with the new Phase/DFD focus system, 5.7m dot 120fps refresh rate EVF. All the AI goodies and a battery move up. But we all know they won't do it because they are clearly video centric focused now. I am on the other hand NOT. I never hit my video button. Hence enjoy for those that want whatever it is they bring to the table. The OM-1 is far more up my alley.

Interceptor121 said:

Better late than never but the S5 sensor readout at very slow rate. I doubt burst will get to more than 10 fps we will see

Click to expand...

From the S5.2 data sheet:

Burst speed Mechanical shutter

H: 9 frames/sec (AFS/MF), 7 frames/sec (AFC) (with Live View)
M: 5 frames/sec (AFS/MF) (with Live View), 5 frames/sec (AFC) (with Live
View)
L: 2 frames/sec (AFS/AFC/MF) (with Live View)

Burst speed Electronic shutter

SH30: 30 frames/sec (AFS/AFC/MF)
H: 9 frames/sec (AFS/MF), 8 frames/sec (AFC) (with Live View)
M: 5 frames/sec (AFS/MF) (with Live View), 5 frames/sec (AFC) (with Live
View)
L: 2 frames/sec (AFS/AFC/MF) (with Live View)

Interceptor121 said:

I don't think Panasonic has the slightest interest in photography users on MFT in fact they are releasing a full frame camera with PDAF

MFT is for video

Click to expand...

Yup yet another reason Panasonic isn't even on my radar.

Eric Nepean said:

SHood said:

The full specs for the S5ii were leaked and shows PDAF. The only question now is when a Panasonic m43 body will be released with this.

https://asobinet.com/info-rumor-dc-s5m2-spec/

Image phase detection AF / Contrast AF
DFD Technology

Click to expand...

In view of Panasonic’s statements on camera development and business strategy, my question is “ if a Panasonic m43 body will be released with this”

Click to expand...

I'm prepared to BET you it will NOT

ProDude said:

Eric Nepean said:

SHood said:

The full specs for the S5ii were leaked and shows PDAF. The only question now is when a Panasonic m43 body will be released with this.

https://asobinet.com/info-rumor-dc-s5m2-spec/

Image phase detection AF / Contrast AF
DFD Technology

Click to expand...

In view of Panasonic’s statements on camera development and business strategy, my question is “ if a Panasonic m43 body will be released with this”

Click to expand...

I'm prepared to BET you it will NOT

Click to expand...

I also expect it will not.

SHood said:

The full specs for the S5ii were leaked and shows PDAF. The only question now is when a Panasonic m43 body will be released with this.

https://asobinet.com/info-rumor-dc-s5m2-spec/

Image phase detection AF / Contrast AF
DFD Technology

Click to expand...

Does this push Panasonic a lot further against competitors? It seems like lack of PDAF was a main thing that had relegated them to the fringes, not taken seriously by professionals and amateurs compared to the big 3 or 4. Not that they are going to be the next Sony or Canon but does this make them a more serious competitor or is not that big of a deal?

At this point of time no one really know what is it.

However, back to the day of either IBIS or Lens IS, no one expect that Pany will merge the two IS systems to form DUAL IS. Olympus realized the benefit, created its own form of DUAL IS (Synchorized IS). By this we have the very excellent IS 12~100 and others from Olympus which never touches on Lens IS before.

So far IS is still a stronghold of M43.

Would a new AF system, says PDAF + DFD & CDAF been released to repeat the history again. Time will tell.

If this new AF system will work, I guess Olympus might roll out similar feature too. DFD indeed is a software apporach, a firmware update might possible do it. Olympus should have data of its lenses and therefore could work out it's DFD without difficulty. Just matter of worth for the effort.

Noted a lot of negative opinion on this unknown new thing. Wishing it is not just a brand matter. If we can have break through on AF, would it be great on overall M43 system?

Happy 2023 to everyone.

Jeeter001 said:

SHood said:

The full specs for the S5ii were leaked and shows PDAF. The only question now is when a Panasonic m43 body will be released with this.

https://asobinet.com/info-rumor-dc-s5m2-spec/

Image phase detection AF / Contrast AF
DFD Technology

Click to expand...

Does this push Panasonic a lot further against competitors? It seems like lack of PDAF was a main thing that had relegated them to the fringes, not taken seriously by professionals and amateurs compared to the big 3 or 4. Not that they are going to be the next Sony or Canon but does this make them a more serious competitor or is not that big of a deal?

Click to expand...

It would only be my personal opinion, but back when the S1 was released for example. I had owned a number of top DSLR's prior and was so immediately impressed with virtually ALL aspects of the camera. The LCD, The Build Quality, The button layout and ergonomics and menu layout were without compromise. Then I tried shooting some wildlife and birds. Ehh it fell flat on it's face. Before that I was nearly convinced I'd found my professional too to move forward with. But alas that one aspect caused me to return it. Had it had PDAF I suspect I would have had no choice but to consider it a LEADER among the offerings. So what I'm going to say is this. IF Panasonic decides to play serious with the "big boys" adding a highly competent and competitive accurate PDAF system for their FF let alone their Mft cameras, there isn't any reason in my book they can't near rise to the TOP of the heap. They are loaded with technology to say the least. But they NEED the PDAF to take that next step forward. If they don't, I won't think much about their market schemes.