Alternating groups of 200W speedlights vs. 500-600W strobes

Sundre said:

I do fire performance photography, and I've been slowly figuring out what sort of lighting setup I want to have. Haven't bought anything yet - still learning and renting to try out different options.

This is the sort of thing I do:


Lit by a pair of Godox AD100s.

I've tried a 500W Profoto B1x and a pair of 100W Godox AD100s. The B1x was powerful enough but so heavy and expensive, the AD100s not powerful enough (love the size of that setup though!).

I realise that in terms of light, I'd probably be best off with a couple of 500-600W strobes, something like the Godox AD600 or the Profoto B1x.

But those are really heavy setups. My photoshoots are always outside, typically somewhere I have to walk a fair bit, and I'd really prefer to carry as little weight as possible. The Godox AD200 is a very popular choice. I don't think two of those would be enough, but maybe four of them could be?

I would really prefer to be able to fire a burst at 5 fps for a couple of seconds, wait a couple of seconds and fire another burst, for 1-2 minutes at a time. That would give me a decent chance of capturing the best moments without the performers having to slow down (the ones I work with prefer not to).

I don't think the AD200 can keep firing at that kind of a rate with enough light (probably 1/4 - 1/8), but if I had two groups of two AD200s (2 x 2), could I somehow alternate between them? One pair fires for a couple of seconds, 2nd pair takes over while 1st pair recycles, rinse and repeat.

The trouble is, I'd need to be able to automate that. How? I can't rely on manually switching groups on my remote, that takes too long.

Is there a way?

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River Photography said:

fire 2 of the ad200 at the same time at half your current output ;-)

Rp

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Sundre said:

River Photography said:

fire 2 of the ad200 at the same time at half your current output ;-)

Rp

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Do you mean firing all 4 at, say, 1/16 instead of 2 at 1/8?

Damn, why didn't I think of that.

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River Photography said:

Sundre said:

River Photography said:

fire 2 of the ad200 at the same time at half your current output ;-)

Rp

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Do you mean firing all 4 at, say, 1/16 instead of 2 at 1/8?

Damn, why didn't I think of that.

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yes .i dont know how many more burst flashes you will get but its worth a try. and recycle time will be basically instant.

Rp

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Sundre said:

River Photography said:

Sundre said:

River Photography said:

fire 2 of the ad200 at the same time at half your current output ;-)

Rp

Click to expand...

Do you mean firing all 4 at, say, 1/16 instead of 2 at 1/8?

Damn, why didn't I think of that.

Click to expand...

yes .i dont know how many more burst flashes you will get but its worth a try. and recycle time will be basically instant.

Rp

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I'll give it a go. I'm beginning to realise that in the world of flash photography, I tend to start by looking for too complicated answers when simple ones will get me there with less effort =D

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Richard Hopkins said:

This is an exposure settings balancing act.

Start with the flames, which look blown to bits. That's what it's all about, you can't control their brightness but they set the baseline for everything else so get that right first and build on it. Then add flash to balance.

That much is easy, but the requirement for rapid flash bursts might make it more difficult. You should be able to get pretty much any strobe to keep up, at least briefly. An IGBT-regulated strobe (almost all these days) always starts with a fully charged capacitor so if you turn the power down to 1/4 in theory it should be able to fire four flashes in immediate succession. It doesn't always work exactly like that but won't be far off. Set 1/8 power and you should get 5-6 shots fairly reliably.

The problem of course is strobe brightness at lower power settings. Apart from a bigger strobe or using two in tandem, there are several ways of increasing that usefully, like moving the light closer or using a more efficient modifier. But also bear in mind that bumping ISO one stop effectively doubles your strobe power in exposure terms, two stops quadruples it and so on.

Lots of options there and juggling them all on the hoof is the skill. Practise ;-)

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Sundre said:

Richard Hopkins said:

This is an exposure settings balancing act.

Start with the flames, which look blown to bits. That's what it's all about, you can't control their brightness but they set the baseline for everything else so get that right first and build on it. Then add flash to balance.

That much is easy, but the requirement for rapid flash bursts might make it more difficult. You should be able to get pretty much any strobe to keep up, at least briefly. An IGBT-regulated strobe (almost all these days) always starts with a fully charged capacitor so if you turn the power down to 1/4 in theory it should be able to fire four flashes in immediate succession. It doesn't always work exactly like that but won't be far off. Set 1/8 power and you should get 5-6 shots fairly reliably.

The problem of course is strobe brightness at lower power settings. Apart from a bigger strobe or using two in tandem, there are several ways of increasing that usefully, like moving the light closer or using a more efficient modifier. But also bear in mind that bumping ISO one stop effectively doubles your strobe power in exposure terms, two stops quadruples it and so on.

Lots of options there and juggling them all on the hoof is the skill. Practise ;-)

Click to expand...

Thanks. Yeah, I wasn't able to expose the fires correctly with the AD100s yesterday, had to keep them too far, and they just didn't have enough power from that distance.

They work all right for close-ups of a single relatively stationary performer where I can keep them very close, such as here:



...but for groups, and larger props with a large swing radius, I need a lot more power. Would ideally prefer not to carry 500-600W strobes if I can get away with a bunch of AD200s...

Click to expand...

Richard Hopkins said:

Sundre said:

Richard Hopkins said:

This is an exposure settings balancing act.

Start with the flames, which look blown to bits. That's what it's all about, you can't control their brightness but they set the baseline for everything else so get that right first and build on it. Then add flash to balance.

That much is easy, but the requirement for rapid flash bursts might make it more difficult. You should be able to get pretty much any strobe to keep up, at least briefly. An IGBT-regulated strobe (almost all these days) always starts with a fully charged capacitor so if you turn the power down to 1/4 in theory it should be able to fire four flashes in immediate succession. It doesn't always work exactly like that but won't be far off. Set 1/8 power and you should get 5-6 shots fairly reliably.

The problem of course is strobe brightness at lower power settings. Apart from a bigger strobe or using two in tandem, there are several ways of increasing that usefully, like moving the light closer or using a more efficient modifier. But also bear in mind that bumping ISO one stop effectively doubles your strobe power in exposure terms, two stops quadruples it and so on.

Lots of options there and juggling them all on the hoof is the skill. Practise ;-)

Click to expand...

Thanks. Yeah, I wasn't able to expose the fires correctly with the AD100s yesterday, had to keep them too far, and they just didn't have enough power from that distance.

They work all right for close-ups of a single relatively stationary performer where I can keep them very close, such as here:

...but for groups, and larger props with a large swing radius, I need a lot more power. Would ideally prefer not to carry 500-600W strobes if I can get away with a bunch of AD200s...

Click to expand...

Use shutter speed to control brightness of the flames (and any ambient light) without affecting flash exposure. Adjusting strobe power, or moving it closer, or using a more efficient modifier will change flash and nothing else. Aperture and ISO will change everything.

The answer is in there somewhere, probably with the equipment you have. It's a juggling act.

ps My experience is that a surprising range of exposure settings still yields good-looking flames. Maybe you'll find some wriggle-room there.

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AstroVagabond said:

I have absolutely nothing to offer other than I find your genre of fire performance photography fascinating and cool! Never knew it existed. Thank you for creating awareness.

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Sundre said:

Richard Hopkins said:

Sundre said:

Richard Hopkins said:

This is an exposure settings balancing act.

Start with the flames, which look blown to bits. That's what it's all about, you can't control their brightness but they set the baseline for everything else so get that right first and build on it. Then add flash to balance.

That much is easy, but the requirement for rapid flash bursts might make it more difficult. You should be able to get pretty much any strobe to keep up, at least briefly. An IGBT-regulated strobe (almost all these days) always starts with a fully charged capacitor so if you turn the power down to 1/4 in theory it should be able to fire four flashes in immediate succession. It doesn't always work exactly like that but won't be far off. Set 1/8 power and you should get 5-6 shots fairly reliably.

The problem of course is strobe brightness at lower power settings. Apart from a bigger strobe or using two in tandem, there are several ways of increasing that usefully, like moving the light closer or using a more efficient modifier. But also bear in mind that bumping ISO one stop effectively doubles your strobe power in exposure terms, two stops quadruples it and so on.

Lots of options there and juggling them all on the hoof is the skill. Practise ;-)

Click to expand...

Thanks. Yeah, I wasn't able to expose the fires correctly with the AD100s yesterday, had to keep them too far, and they just didn't have enough power from that distance.

They work all right for close-ups of a single relatively stationary performer where I can keep them very close, such as here:

...but for groups, and larger props with a large swing radius, I need a lot more power. Would ideally prefer not to carry 500-600W strobes if I can get away with a bunch of AD200s...

Click to expand...

Use shutter speed to control brightness of the flames (and any ambient light) without affecting flash exposure. Adjusting strobe power, or moving it closer, or using a more efficient modifier will change flash and nothing else. Aperture and ISO will change everything.

The answer is in there somewhere, probably with the equipment you have. It's a juggling act.

ps My experience is that a surprising range of exposure settings still yields good-looking flames. Maybe you'll find some wriggle-room there.

Click to expand...

Yes. The problem with the AD100s was that an exposure triangle yielding nicely exposed flames left the performers so dark, they would have been impossible to recover in post. I tried moving the speedlights closer, but one got knocked down accidentally by a chain staff and I didn't want to risk damage to the equipment. Increasing power left them unable to recycle quickly enough; I'm not good enough at timing my shots to nail it with just one or two exposures.

I can get a pair of AD100s to work if I can keep them very close (3-4 ft) to the performers, but that requires one relatively stationary performer, or maybe two at most - instead of three dancing around with large props.

I think I would ideally shoot from maybe 15-20 ft, but that's going to require a lot more light.

Click to expand...

Richard Hopkins said:

Sundre said:

Richard Hopkins said:

Sundre said:

Richard Hopkins said:

This is an exposure settings balancing act.

Start with the flames, which look blown to bits. That's what it's all about, you can't control their brightness but they set the baseline for everything else so get that right first and build on it. Then add flash to balance.

That much is easy, but the requirement for rapid flash bursts might make it more difficult. You should be able to get pretty much any strobe to keep up, at least briefly. An IGBT-regulated strobe (almost all these days) always starts with a fully charged capacitor so if you turn the power down to 1/4 in theory it should be able to fire four flashes in immediate succession. It doesn't always work exactly like that but won't be far off. Set 1/8 power and you should get 5-6 shots fairly reliably.

The problem of course is strobe brightness at lower power settings. Apart from a bigger strobe or using two in tandem, there are several ways of increasing that usefully, like moving the light closer or using a more efficient modifier. But also bear in mind that bumping ISO one stop effectively doubles your strobe power in exposure terms, two stops quadruples it and so on.

Lots of options there and juggling them all on the hoof is the skill. Practise ;-)

Click to expand...

Thanks. Yeah, I wasn't able to expose the fires correctly with the AD100s yesterday, had to keep them too far, and they just didn't have enough power from that distance.

They work all right for close-ups of a single relatively stationary performer where I can keep them very close, such as here:

...but for groups, and larger props with a large swing radius, I need a lot more power. Would ideally prefer not to carry 500-600W strobes if I can get away with a bunch of AD200s...

Click to expand...

Use shutter speed to control brightness of the flames (and any ambient light) without affecting flash exposure. Adjusting strobe power, or moving it closer, or using a more efficient modifier will change flash and nothing else. Aperture and ISO will change everything.

The answer is in there somewhere, probably with the equipment you have. It's a juggling act.

ps My experience is that a surprising range of exposure settings still yields good-looking flames. Maybe you'll find some wriggle-room there.

Click to expand...

Yes. The problem with the AD100s was that an exposure triangle yielding nicely exposed flames left the performers so dark, they would have been impossible to recover in post. I tried moving the speedlights closer, but one got knocked down accidentally by a chain staff and I didn't want to risk damage to the equipment. Increasing power left them unable to recycle quickly enough; I'm not good enough at timing my shots to nail it with just one or two exposures.

I can get a pair of AD100s to work if I can keep them very close (3-4 ft) to the performers, but that requires one relatively stationary performer, or maybe two at most - instead of three dancing around with large props.

I think I would ideally shoot from maybe 15-20 ft, but that's going to require a lot more light.

Click to expand...

Okay, if you've established that the problem is lack of strobe power, then push ISO and/or lower the f/number until the flash exposure is good. Then raise the shutter speed to darken the flames.

This may or may not give you the result you're looking for but at least you will have established where the limits are and can address them with confidence.

I'm reluctant to simply say go out and buy a big strobe, with all the cost and weight/size that goes with it, when a few clicks on a dial might do the trick. Having said that, 100Ws is not much power for serious work. It's basically a speedlight and you'll run into more limitations down the line. If you plan on doing more stuff like this* maybe invest in something like the AD400-Pro. IMO it hits the sweetspot in terms of power, modelling LED, HSS, size/weight/cost. Or maybe two AD200-Pros might be more versatile for you with the AD-B2 twin adapter.

*Edit: working outdoors tends to eat strobe power. Without any surrounding walls/ceiling to bounce spilled light back, you're down maybe half a stop for starters. Then working distances tend to be greater outdoors which is a serious power-killer (inverse square law) and then you may need HSS in bright sun that'll lose another stop or two. Suddenly 1600Ws doesn't seem so much after all. Don't waste your money on another AD100...

Click to expand...

Sundre said:

Richard Hopkins said:

Okay, if you've established that the problem is lack of strobe power, then push ISO and/or lower the f/number until the flash exposure is good. Then raise the shutter speed to darken the flames.

This may or may not give you the result you're looking for but at least you will have established where the limits are and can address them with confidence.

I'm reluctant to simply say go out and buy a big strobe, with all the cost and weight/size that goes with it, when a few clicks on a dial might do the trick. Having said that, 100Ws is not much power for serious work. It's basically a speedlight and you'll run into more limitations down the line. If you plan on doing more stuff like this* maybe invest in something like the AD400-Pro. IMO it hits the sweetspot in terms of power, modelling LED, HSS, size/weight/cost. Or maybe two AD200-Pros might be more versatile for you with the AD-B2 twin adapter.

*Edit: working outdoors tends to eat strobe power. Without any surrounding walls/ceiling to bounce spilled light back, you're down maybe half a stop for starters. Then working distances tend to be greater outdoors which is a serious power-killer (inverse square law) and then you may need HSS in bright sun that'll lose another stop or two. Suddenly 1600Ws doesn't seem so much after all. Don't waste your money on another AD100...

Click to expand...

Thanks. I only ever do this in the dark, so I won't need strobes capable of overcoming sunlight. Just need to cover a lot of distance ideally, so that there's no risk of my lights getting hit by props or being covered in fuel/soot.

I didn't buy the AD100s - I currently own zero lighting equipment. Just getting started with flash photography, so I've been renting various kinds of gear to figure out what works for me before buying.

I'm curious - why do you suggest the AD200 Pro model, insted of the AD200? I'm new to this, but so far, every review I've read suggests the AD200 is better value for money, and practically just as good as the Pro model for most purposes.

I'll see if I can rent the AD400 Pro. The only big strobe I've tried so far was the Profoto B1x 500, which definitely had enough power, but it's very heavy and expensive.

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Richard Hopkins said:

Sundre said:

Richard Hopkins said:

Okay, if you've established that the problem is lack of strobe power, then push ISO and/or lower the f/number until the flash exposure is good. Then raise the shutter speed to darken the flames.

This may or may not give you the result you're looking for but at least you will have established where the limits are and can address them with confidence.

I'm reluctant to simply say go out and buy a big strobe, with all the cost and weight/size that goes with it, when a few clicks on a dial might do the trick. Having said that, 100Ws is not much power for serious work. It's basically a speedlight and you'll run into more limitations down the line. If you plan on doing more stuff like this* maybe invest in something like the AD400-Pro. IMO it hits the sweetspot in terms of power, modelling LED, HSS, size/weight/cost. Or maybe two AD200-Pros might be more versatile for you with the AD-B2 twin adapter.

*Edit: working outdoors tends to eat strobe power. Without any surrounding walls/ceiling to bounce spilled light back, you're down maybe half a stop for starters. Then working distances tend to be greater outdoors which is a serious power-killer (inverse square law) and then you may need HSS in bright sun that'll lose another stop or two. Suddenly 1600Ws doesn't seem so much after all. Don't waste your money on another AD100...

Click to expand...

Thanks. I only ever do this in the dark, so I won't need strobes capable of overcoming sunlight. Just need to cover a lot of distance ideally, so that there's no risk of my lights getting hit by props or being covered in fuel/soot.

I didn't buy the AD100s - I currently own zero lighting equipment. Just getting started with flash photography, so I've been renting various kinds of gear to figure out what works for me before buying.

I'm curious - why do you suggest the AD200 Pro model, insted of the AD200? I'm new to this, but so far, every review I've read suggests the AD200 is better value for money, and practically just as good as the Pro model for most purposes.

I'll see if I can rent the AD400 Pro. The only big strobe I've tried so far was the Profoto B1x 500, which definitely had enough power, but it's very heavy and expensive.

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AD400 vs AD200? It's always a compromise - power set against cost,size, weight and your personal requirements. My go-to strobe is always the AD400 (I also have AD-200Pro and a V1) because 400Ws is around the lowest power that can be pressed into service for just about anything. Sometimes I wish I'd gone for the AD600Pro, not for the power but for the shorter flash durations when you turn it down to say 300-400Ws. But it's bigger, heavier, costs more etc.

What's driving your need for more power is the requirement for rapid sequence shooting. If the AD100 isn't enough for your needs, then I think you'll probably find the AD200 is not a big enough step up. It's only one stop - handy for sure but not a game-changer which is what it looks like you need here. But do some testing, find out what you actually need, and make a judgement.

AD200 is a brilliant machine, so versatile, and ganging two together in the AD-B2 mount gets you some serious power plus a usable modelling LED (no use in daylight though). But it doesn't recharge very fast, has no fan so can be prone to overheating, and while the AD-B2 addresses some shortcomings it creates a rather cumbersome rig. Speaking of cumbersome, while compact strobes are obviously good for transportation etc, they're only a small part of a good outfit - don't forget about the weight of heavy stands and bulky softboxes.

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Ellis Vener said:

There’s a rule I learned back when I was using view cameras: when you have to correct your corrections (meaning changing your tilt, swing, rise/fall, shift movements to correct for movements you’ve already made) zero everything and start again.

with lighting this means: avoid overcomplication unless it is absolutely necessary, always try to find the most straightforward solution that works.

it looks like you are figuring this out too. That’s a good signpost on the road to mastering any craft.

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Sundre said:

Yeah, stands are the main reason I've been trying to find a smaller setup that works. I can carry one or two 5-6 lbs strobes in a backpack, but those stands are bulky and heavy. Obviously not a problem in a studio, but when you need to hike with them, things get challenging.

I don't have an assistant and there isn't enough money in this to pay for one going forward either. The performers can sometimes help carry stuff, but I can't count on that.

Been using Manfrotto 1004s, not sure if there are equally capable but significantly less heavy options in that price range. I won't be making a ton of money from this so need to watch my budget. I find the Manfrottos a real pain to carry... Modifiers are less of an issue, I can usually strap them to my backpack. Adds bulk but not much weight.

By contrast yesterday's setup of a pair of Manfrotto 5001Bs and two AD100s with magmod modifiers fit easily into my little rucksack and weighed next to nothing. Just not powerful enough, unless I'm shooting just one relatively stationary performer.

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Richard Hopkins said:

Sundre said:

Yeah, stands are the main reason I've been trying to find a smaller setup that works. I can carry one or two 5-6 lbs strobes in a backpack, but those stands are bulky and heavy. Obviously not a problem in a studio, but when you need to hike with them, things get challenging.

I don't have an assistant and there isn't enough money in this to pay for one going forward either. The performers can sometimes help carry stuff, but I can't count on that.

Been using Manfrotto 1004s, not sure if there are equally capable but significantly less heavy options in that price range. I won't be making a ton of money from this so need to watch my budget. I find the Manfrottos a real pain to carry... Modifiers are less of an issue, I can usually strap them to my backpack. Adds bulk but not much weight.

By contrast yesterday's setup of a pair of Manfrotto 5001Bs and two AD100s with magmod modifiers fit easily into my little rucksack and weighed next to nothing. Just not powerful enough, unless I'm shooting just one relatively stationary performer.

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What MagMod modifiers? Some those widgety attachments, like the dome/sphere things, are hudgely wasteful of light in the way they spread it around everywhere.

Just a suggestion, but for this kind of shoot I'd be looking to use a reverse-firing umbrella softbox. They are very cheap, easy to carry and quick to set up, deliver great light, and are a bit more efficient (more light output) than a regular softbox of similar size.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Walimex-Pro-Umbrella-Softbox-Reflector/dp/B006MQXI0U

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