Can Fujifilm fix AF issues in firmware?

dccberry said:

JNR said:

dccberry said:

Most of the "issues" are user related.

Click to expand...

Wow, you must have been really busy checking on everyone's technique to be able to draw that conclusion with such confident clarity. Apparently, we shouldn't discuss the issue any further. Congratulations.

Click to expand...

Technique is actually important, and I know that the camera works. I have missed images due to user error, but I don't blame the camera. Anything can be improved theoretically, and I think that folks should not expect the camera to do everything for them flawlessly- it just isn't ever going happen.

Click to expand...

I was being a bit rough with the sarcasm, and didn't really deserve so many likes... and I agree that technique has a big role to play. At the same time, Fuji is asking a lot of users to figure out what kind of settings will work best, and providing very little useful guidance - so that isn't really on the user, IMO.

I'm frustrated right now with Fuji AF because I'm in the process of documenting that the XF 70-300 - which is very good and sharp at AF-S when holding steady, but appears to be so seriously flawed at AF-C when tracking (in narrow zone setting) that it is often much poorer in IQ than the XC 50-230 in those situations. I'm repeating tests and experimenting with alternative settings, but its pretty clear that there were some poor decisions made with the floating IS element design resulting in not locking focus... and it is related to overcorrection of spherical aberrations resulting in very poor bokeh - but not consistently. You end up with a lot of double-image background bokeh and a muddy focus point when tracking because the floating element probably was undersized. (All elements are so small on the XC 50-230 - it isn't surprising that it is quicker and more reliable at AF-C.)

Bottom line is that a lot of the AF problem probably is related to poor OIS (and possibly IBIS) design. That's the theory in progress, and if so, the "firmware fix" might mostly be better OIS/IBIS hardware design some time down the line.

Threaded said:

Tweakers Net said:

So today autofocus is where manufacturers can show their abilities. Does the firmware advantage, that Fuji always has had, mean that they can save their day? In other words, is fixing AF in firmware possible?

Click to expand...

Fuji have been “fixing” autofocus issues in firmware for the past 12 years or more (some of the original X series cameras were barely useable before their first firmware updates).

Nevertheless two things are true in 2022 - Fuji still lag behind the competition on AF as they always have done, and also they no longer have any “firmware advantage”.

Other manufacturers like Canon and Nikon have caught up on that score, while Fuji have become a lot less dependable when it comes to sharing the latest firmware improvements with existing cameras. It’s no longer a given that any improved system in their next model will automatically come to the XT5.

Click to expand...

Given all that, it certainly raises the obvious question as to why you're still using Fuji gear. Do you find that while Fuji's AF is subpar, it's still "good enough" for your own needs?

I personally have no "skin in the game" here and have found the AF to be more than sufficient for the sort of photography I do. But the situation you describe here -- if accurate -- makes be wonder why you haven't moved on to a vendor that offers a better AF solution.

I have been using the Nikkor 70-200 f/2.8E on the X-H2s body for stage and dance work, and it is a great combo. Optically, the lens is about perfect even wide open. I tripod mounted it recently, and shut off the camera's IBIS, using only the lens's VR. For most of what I do, which is editorial work,, even the X-T3's focus capability is more than fine, and coming from Nikon D850 / D4, the improvement of the Fuji focus system is dramatic. I know my comment was a bit snarky, but these cameras all have a learning curve in order to produce professional results.

dgbarar said:

Canon has dual pixel technology (patented). Sony mixes phase and contrast autofocus pixels (patented). Canon and Sony are the leaders in autofocus technology. Fuji uses hybrid autofocus pixels that are used for both imaging and autofocus (patented). To this point Fuji has been unable to come up with an autofocus system that is as good as Sony or Canon. So who knows if FujiFilm will be able to improve their autofocus technology to be world class. Do they even care? Don’t know that either. I doubt that anyone will be able to answer your question. Why am I even trying??????

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This is precisely why I keep my Canon around. Fuji AF is so embarassing.

Jerry-astro said:

Threaded said:

Tweakers Net said:

So today autofocus is where manufacturers can show their abilities. Does the firmware advantage, that Fuji always has had, mean that they can save their day? In other words, is fixing AF in firmware possible?

Click to expand...

Fuji have been “fixing” autofocus issues in firmware for the past 12 years or more (some of the original X series cameras were barely useable before their first firmware updates).

Nevertheless two things are true in 2022 - Fuji still lag behind the competition on AF as they always have done, and also they no longer have any “firmware advantage”.

Other manufacturers like Canon and Nikon have caught up on that score, while Fuji have become a lot less dependable when it comes to sharing the latest firmware improvements with existing cameras. It’s no longer a given that any improved system in their next model will automatically come to the XT5.

Click to expand...

Given all that, it certainly raises the obvious question as to why you're still using Fuji gear. Do you find that while Fuji's AF is subpar, it's still "good enough" for your own needs?

I personally have no "skin in the game" here and have found the AF to be more than sufficient for the sort of photography I do. But the situation you describe here -- if accurate -- makes be wonder why you haven't moved on to a vendor that offers a better AF solution.

Click to expand...

Not sure what accuracy you’re questioning here Jerry - it’s not exactly controversial to say that Fuji is lagging behind competitors on autofocus, is it? Am I wrong to suggest that Sony, Canon etc do this better? Is there some doubt over that, in your opinion?

Similarly, it’s a fact that other manufacturers have raised their game on firmware updates in the past few years, and equally a fact that Fuji’s updates have slowed down. XT3 owners waited more than a year for the AF improvements in the XT4. X-Pro3 owners still haven’t had them all now. This is not Fuji’s “firmware advantage” of old and it does nothing to suggest that future improvements to the AF system in firmware will be locked in for the XT5.

Now to the “obvious question” which you have no “skin in the game” over. It must be a very obvious question because I get asked it a lot and my answer is always the same, I like Fuji, I’m invested in the system, and in particular I love the X-Pro cameras and the hybrid finder which literally NO OTHER manufacturer can offer me. So if it’s all the same to you, and as previously mentioned you have no skin in the game so I assume it is, I’ll stick with Fuji. But that does not mean I won’t raise and discuss the shortcomings of their gear, here, on this discussion forum about Fuji gear. It seems an appropriate place.

Hi Jerry,

Looking at your response below, it seems like you're trying to shift the conversation from why FujiFilm is behind in autofocus (the intent of this thread) to FujiFilm's strengths in 2022, which seems disingenuous.

>> Given all that, it certainly raises the obvious question as to why you're still using Fuji gear. Do you find that while Fuji's AF is subpar, it's still "good enough" for your own needs?

Why does this matter? The person has issues with Fuji's autofocus in 2022, but it seems like you're trying to shift the thread away form genuine autofocus issues to other positives.

>> I personally have no "skin in the game" here and have found the AF to be more than sufficient for the sort of photography I do. But the situation you describe here -- if accurate -- makes be wonder why you haven't moved on to a vendor that offers a better AF solution.

Maybe you don't shoot fast moving kids/pets or just take pics of stuff that AF even back in 2018 handled fine in FujiFilm cameras. That doesn't take away from the issues that new people buying the XH2/s/T5 are experiencing.

If you're wondering why someone with 2022 FujiFilm autofocus issues hasn't moved away to a different vendor, then perhaps the obvious answer is that they are either stuck with their lens investment or have other features that they like a lot about FujiFilm. But again, I do wonder why we can't keep this thread solely about whether AutoFocus can be fixed via software/firmware and if it's in the public interest to start instead talking about why people with autofocus concerns still continue to use Fujifilm.

Threaded said:

Jerry-astro said:

Threaded said:

Tweakers Net said:

So today autofocus is where manufacturers can show their abilities. Does the firmware advantage, that Fuji always has had, mean that they can save their day? In other words, is fixing AF in firmware possible?

Click to expand...

Fuji have been “fixing” autofocus issues in firmware for the past 12 years or more (some of the original X series cameras were barely useable before their first firmware updates).

Nevertheless two things are true in 2022 - Fuji still lag behind the competition on AF as they always have done, and also they no longer have any “firmware advantage”.

Other manufacturers like Canon and Nikon have caught up on that score, while Fuji have become a lot less dependable when it comes to sharing the latest firmware improvements with existing cameras. It’s no longer a given that any improved system in their next model will automatically come to the XT5.

Click to expand...

Given all that, it certainly raises the obvious question as to why you're still using Fuji gear. Do you find that while Fuji's AF is subpar, it's still "good enough" for your own needs?

I personally have no "skin in the game" here and have found the AF to be more than sufficient for the sort of photography I do. But the situation you describe here -- if accurate -- makes be wonder why you haven't moved on to a vendor that offers a better AF solution.

Click to expand...

Not sure what accuracy you’re questioning here Jerry - it’s not exactly controversial to say that Fuji is lagging behind competitors on autofocus, is it? Am I wrong to suggest that Sony, Canon etc do this better? Is there some doubt over that, in your opinion?

Similarly, it’s a fact that other manufacturers have raised their game on firmware updates in the past few years, and equally a fact that Fuji’s updates have slowed down. XT3 owners waited more than a year for the AF improvements in the XT4. X-Pro3 owners still haven’t had them all now. This is not Fuji’s “firmware advantage” of old and it does nothing to suggest that future improvements to the AF system in firmware will be locked in for the XT5.

Now to the “obvious question” which you have no “skin in the game” over. It must be a very obvious question because it gets asked it a lot and my answer is always the same, I like Fuji, I’m invested in the system, and in particular I love the X-Pro cameras and the hybrid finder which literally NO OTHER manufacturer can offer me. So if it’s all the same to you, and as previously mentioned you have no skin in the game so I assume it is, I’ll stick with Fuji. But that does not mean I won’t raise and discuss the shortcomings of their gear, here, on this discussion forum about Fuji gear. It seems an appropriate place.

Click to expand...

That's a rather defensive answer, and I apologize if my question made you feel obliged to respond in that manner. Those choices are clearly yours to make and it's not my place to question them, nor was I trying to do that. My question really was -- given your suggestion that other vendors seem to have superseded some critical capabilities of Fuji's gear -- what it is that keeps you in the game? You nicely answered the question in your response, and that was really what I was curious about. I certainly don't see this forum as a "say only good things about Fujifilm" place. But, your comments did make me wonder what keeps you in the game here, given the issues you raised. and I appreciate your clarification.

And, BTW, in case you're wondering, it's not my job here to defend Fujifilm, nor to bash those who choose to constructively critique their products, whether I happen to agree with their stance or not.

blueplastic said:

Hi Jerry,

Looking at your response below, it seems like you're trying to shift the conversation from why FujiFilm is behind in autofocus (the intent of this thread) to FujiFilm's strengths in 2022, which seems disingenuous.

>> Given all that, it certainly raises the obvious question as to why you're still using Fuji gear. Do you find that while Fuji's AF is subpar, it's still "good enough" for your own needs?

Why does this matter? The person has issues with Fuji's autofocus in 2022, but it seems like you're trying to shift the thread away form genuine autofocus issues to other positives.

Click to expand...

No that wasn't my intent... just your interpretation. If the issues were serious enough, my question was more about what keeps him in the game.

blueplastic said:

>> I personally have no "skin in the game" here and have found the AF to be more than sufficient for the sort of photography I do. But the situation you describe here -- if accurate -- makes be wonder why you haven't moved on to a vendor that offers a better AF solution.

Maybe you don't shoot fast moving kids/pets or just take pics of stuff that AF even back in 2018 handled fine in FujiFilm cameras. That doesn't take away from the issues that new people buying the XH2/s/T5 are experiencing.

Click to expand...

I do a fair amount of BIF photography... challenging enough when compared to kids and pets. I'm still early in the learning curve, but others on the forum have had excellent results with it. When others struggle, an obvious question concerning mastering technique comes to mind.

blueplastic said:

If you're wondering why someone with 2022 FujiFilm autofocus issues hasn't moved away to a different vendor, then perhaps the obvious answer is that they are either stuck with their lens investment or have other features that they like a lot about FujiFilm. But again, I do wonder why we can't keep this thread solely about whether AutoFocus can be fixed via software/firmware and if it's in the public interest to start instead talking about why people with autofocus concerns still continue to use Fujifilm.

Click to expand...

Well, you misread my intent. I tried clarifying it in a separate response.

Good topic of discussion and I've kind of wondered this myself. I would imagine that firmware can improve the AF, but it seems this AF issue has plagued Fujifilm for many years now.

I've mostly had a great AF experience with my X-H2S. I'm sure it will get even better.

Thanks for your frank response, Jerry.

I think the X-H2s will always have a sizeable advantage over the non stacked sensor cameras. Firmware will never be able get the other cameras to the H2s' level. Depending on what you are photographing that may be a deal breaker or just a nuisance.

gdanmitchell said:

dark13star said:

There is nothing to fix. It isn't broken. Maybe it isn't as good as the best out there, but that doesn't mean that it is broken.

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I think this is an important perspective. The question is sometimes treated as: "Product X has 'the best' AF, so Product Y isn't good enough." But there are a couple of problems with this kind of thinking.

1. When you compare one paramount among two or more things, there's a very good chance that one will "score higher" than the other. Let's say that we compare the wealthiest people in the world. Both might be worth billions, but one might be worth a few more billions. But neither is poor — both are rich.

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if 10 out of 100 shots are not properly in focus, if the just when it is most important the AF doesn't work as you would expect it to work, there is no solace in knowing that there are cameras with worse AF out there.

gdanmitchell said:

The same is true when we look at one camera performance parameter such as AF. Just because we can measure one as being the best (though there's debate about even this), it does not follow that the others are not excellent. To argue otherwise is equivalent to arguing that the second-richest person is... poor.

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If nothing is sharp on a number of images, and you don't know exactly why and when, than the camera that comes in second is poor - compared to the a camera that hits focus 99% of the time.

gdanmitchell said:

2. Beyond this, looking at cameras from a single perspective and ignoring others is a poor way to evaluate them. It is like trying to determine the best car by only considering top speed. Other things matter, too: mileage, comfort, how many it seats, how much stuff it can carry, brand reliability, and much more.

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Nowadays with sensor technology and output mature - so very little difference in IQ between cameras and brands - other things matter. AF being arguably the most important one. Yes, I keep using my Fuji cause they feel good and work for me. But when it counts, I take the Sonys (not even the Leica, as Leica's AF is also not reliable).

gdanmitchell said:

Having a very small increment of better AF among cameras that all AF pretty well may make sense if AF speeds the only or primary element of camera performance — but for most people that is not the case.

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It is not about the speed and the difference in AF speed! It is about AF reliability. You don't want to find out at home that a good number of images taken are OOF. It is why I have sold the x100v.

I've never had issues that were not operator related with stationary or slow moving subjects. My X-M1 and 60/2.5 wasn't brilliant, but since the X-E2 nothing wrong.

It shouldn't be too difficult to do the testing, though it would be time consuming. I'd put test objects on a flat truck I could move at a given speed.

--
Andrew Skinner

Frankly i'm finding all the fuji af woe is getting a little tiresome. If you want an automatic, out of the box photography process to track specific subjects then no question, you will be happier with a sony. It takes a little more work on the fujis. I enjoy the process of photography with my xt3 and i shoot plenty of sports, action, kids and dogs sucessfully with it. I just don't use face detect and use a mix of camera tracking and manual tracking. I'm contemplating the xt5 and now find there's a lot of noise out there.

My love of fuji is to not overly automate the process..and don't get me started on computational photograpy....might as well buy a print then

JNR said:

dccberry said:

JNR said:

dccberry said:

Most of the "issues" are user related.

Click to expand...

Wow, you must have been really busy checking on everyone's technique to be able to draw that conclusion with such confident clarity. Apparently, we shouldn't discuss the issue any further. Congratulations.

Click to expand...

Technique is actually important, and I know that the camera works. I have missed images due to user error, but I don't blame the camera. Anything can be improved theoretically, and I think that folks should not expect the camera to do everything for them flawlessly- it just isn't ever going happen.

Click to expand...

I was being a bit rough with the sarcasm, and didn't really deserve so many likes... and I agree that technique has a big role to play. At the same time, Fuji is asking a lot of users to figure out what kind of settings will work best, and providing very little useful guidance - so that isn't really on the user, IMO.

I'm frustrated right now with Fuji AF because I'm in the process of documenting that the XF 70-300 - which is very good and sharp at AF-S when holding steady, but appears to be so seriously flawed at AF-C when tracking (in narrow zone setting) that it is often much poorer in IQ than the XC 50-230 in those situations. I'm repeating tests and experimenting with alternative settings, but its pretty clear that there were some poor decisions made with the floating IS element design resulting in not locking focus... and it is related to overcorrection of spherical aberrations resulting in very poor bokeh - but not consistently. You end up with a lot of double-image background bokeh and a muddy focus point when tracking because the floating element probably was undersized. (All elements are so small on the XC 50-230 - it isn't surprising that it is quicker and more reliable at AF-C.)

Bottom line is that a lot of the AF problem probably is related to poor OIS (and possibly IBIS) design. That's the theory in progress, and if so, the "firmware fix" might mostly be better OIS/IBIS hardware design some time down the line.

Click to expand...

It's an interesting theory, but it's just a theory, because if the problem is related to OIS, they should not be any problems with non OIS lenses like the 90 mm F2 . Do you have any information about AF C and non OIS lenses ?

blueplastic said:

Hi Jerry,

Looking at your response below, it seems like you're trying to shift the conversation from why FujiFilm is behind in autofocus (the intent of this thread) to FujiFilm's strengths in 2022, which seems disingenuous.

>> Given all that, it certainly raises the obvious question as to why you're still using Fuji gear. Do you find that while Fuji's AF is subpar, it's still "good enough" for your own needs?

Why does this matter? The person has issues with Fuji's autofocus in 2022, but it seems like you're trying to shift the thread away form genuine autofocus issues to other positives.

>> I personally have no "skin in the game" here and have found the AF to be more than sufficient for the sort of photography I do. But the situation you describe here -- if accurate -- makes be wonder why you haven't moved on to a vendor that offers a better AF solution.

Maybe you don't shoot fast moving kids/pets

Click to expand...

How did people ever do this in the past?

blueplastic said:

or just take pics of stuff that AF even back in 2018 handled fine in FujiFilm cameras.

Click to expand...

Maybe… or we just learned how to use what we have to accomplish what we want to do instead of endlessly complaining on a forum.

blueplastic said:

That doesn't take away from the issues that new people buying the XH2/s/T5 are experiencing.

If you're wondering why someone with 2022 FujiFilm autofocus issues hasn't moved away to a different vendor, then perhaps the obvious answer is that they are either stuck with their lens investment

Click to expand...

Investment? Sell them, move on… it is that simple.

blueplastic said:

or have other features that they like a lot about FujiFilm.

Click to expand...

Then you have to deal with what you don’t like too.

blueplastic said:

But again, I do wonder why we can't keep this thread solely about whether AutoFocus can be fixed via software/firmware

Click to expand...

Because every single day someone makes a thread about AF and it is getting tiring. Firmware updates are coming and always do. AF will be tweaked. Will it be suddenly cutting edge? Nope.

blueplastic said:

and if it's in the public interest to start instead talking about why people with autofocus concerns still continue to use Fujifilm.

Click to expand...

John Gellings said:

Because every single day someone makes a thread about AF and it is getting tiring. Firmware updates are coming and always do. AF will be tweaked. Will it be suddenly cutting edge? Nope.

Click to expand...

Yes it's tiring. There will be a firmware update, and It won't be cutting edge.

I love to see people giving solutions to improve my AF technique with my fuji gear, and in my experience there isn't any flawless AF in the market.

John Gellings said:

blueplastic said:

Hi Jerry,

Looking at your response below, it seems like you're trying to shift the conversation from why FujiFilm is behind in autofocus (the intent of this thread) to FujiFilm's strengths in 2022, which seems disingenuous.

>> Given all that, it certainly raises the obvious question as to why you're still using Fuji gear. Do you find that while Fuji's AF is subpar, it's still "good enough" for your own needs?

Why does this matter? The person has issues with Fuji's autofocus in 2022, but it seems like you're trying to shift the thread away form genuine autofocus issues to other positives.

>> I personally have no "skin in the game" here and have found the AF to be more than sufficient for the sort of photography I do. But the situation you describe here -- if accurate -- makes be wonder why you haven't moved on to a vendor that offers a better AF solution.

Maybe you don't shoot fast moving kids/pets

Click to expand...

How did people ever do this in the past?

John Gellings said:

or just take pics of stuff that AF even back in 2018 handled fine in FujiFilm cameras.

Click to expand...

Maybe… or we just learned how to use what we have to accomplish what we want to do instead of endlessly complaining on a forum.

John Gellings said:

That doesn't take away from the issues that new people buying the XH2/s/T5 are experiencing.

If you're wondering why someone with 2022 FujiFilm autofocus issues hasn't moved away to a different vendor, then perhaps the obvious answer is that they are either stuck with their lens investment

Click to expand...

Investment? Sell them, move on… it is that simple.

John Gellings said:

or have other features that they like a lot about FujiFilm.

Click to expand...

Then you have to deal with what you don’t like too.

John Gellings said:

But again, I do wonder why we can't keep this thread solely about whether AutoFocus can be fixed via software/firmware

Click to expand...

Because every single day someone makes a thread about AF and it is getting tiring. Firmware updates are coming and always do. AF will be tweaked. Will it be suddenly cutting edge? Nope.

Click to expand...

I have news for you, the threads are not going to stop until Fuji's AF is at least on par with the competition, just the way things to go. A lot to like about Fuji but their AF currently lags behind the competition and thus will continue get a lot of attention until that situation is addressed.

John Gellings said:

John Gellings said:

and if it's in the public interest to start instead talking about why people with autofocus concerns still continue to use Fujifilm.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Powerdoc said:

John Gellings said:

Because every single day someone makes a thread about AF and it is getting tiring. Firmware updates are coming and always do. AF will be tweaked. Will it be suddenly cutting edge? Nope.

Click to expand...

Yes it's tiring. There will be a firmware update, and It won't be cutting edge.

I love to see people giving solutions to improve my AF technique with my fuji gear, and in my experience there isn't any flawless AF in the market.

Click to expand...

Fuji's AF glaringly lags behind the competition in some areas, like video tracking autofocus, auto subject recognition and burst speed shooting. I know there are workarounds for some of them, but would be great if Fuji fixed these issues in firmware, such that the workarounds become redundant.

holashobby said:

Powerdoc said:

John Gellings said:

Because every single day someone makes a thread about AF and it is getting tiring. Firmware updates are coming and always do. AF will be tweaked. Will it be suddenly cutting edge? Nope.

Click to expand...

Yes it's tiring. There will be a firmware update, and It won't be cutting edge.

I love to see people giving solutions to improve my AF technique with my fuji gear, and in my experience there isn't any flawless AF in the market.

Click to expand...

Fuji's AF glaringly lags behind the competition in some areas, like video tracking autofocus, auto subject recognition and burst speed shooting. I know there are workarounds for some of them, but would be great if Fuji fixed these issues in firmware, such that the workarounds become redundant.

Click to expand...

glaring, wow