Can Fujifilm fix AF issues in firmware?

So today autofocus is where manufacturers can show their abilities. Does the firmware advantage, that Fuji always has had, mean that they can save their day? In other words, is fixing AF in firmware possible?

Canon has dual pixel technology (patented). Sony mixes phase and contrast autofocus pixels (patented). Canon and Sony are the leaders in autofocus technology. Fuji uses hybrid autofocus pixels that are used for both imaging and autofocus (patented). To this point Fuji has been unable to come up with an autofocus system that is as good as Sony or Canon. So who knows if FujiFilm will be able to improve their autofocus technology to be world class. Do they even care? Don’t know that either. I doubt that anyone will be able to answer your question. Why am I even trying??????

Most of the "issues" are user related.

It's possible within the limitations of the hardware, of course - only really Fuji know that though. The X-T3 for example, received an AF update to pretty much bring it up to the X-T4 (they shared the same gen processor and sensor).

I think the AF topic has just about been hashed out as far as we can go without intimate knowledge of how to build a camera, AF algorithms, and firmware from scratch.

The key takeaway is yes, Fuji's AF has improved, but no, perhaps not (at least on the non-stacked models) up to Canon/Sony levels of ease/reliability. Will it improve with firmware? Yes - probably, but maybe not by a huge amount.

dccberry said:

Most of the "issues" are user related.

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Wow, you must have been really busy checking on everyone's technique to be able to draw that conclusion with such confident clarity. Apparently, we shouldn't discuss the issue any further. Congratulations.

JNR said:

dccberry said:

Most of the "issues" are user related.

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Wow, you must have been really busy checking on everyone's technique to be able to draw that conclusion with such confident clarity. Apparently, we shouldn't discuss the issue any further. Congratulations.

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DPReview who had trouble taking sharp photos with the X-H2s named it camera of the year.

My conclusion is the cameras can take sharp photos. This is not to say they lack issues.

Furthermore, the issues I see with my X-H2s can be fixed in firmware.

Morris

There is nothing to fix. It isn't broken. Maybe it isn't as good as the best out there, but that doesn't mean that it is broken.

So, can Fujifilm improve the autofocus in firmware? I think that is an obvious yes. Autofocus relies heavily on software algorithms and processing and we have seen them improve it with updates in the past. Expect incremental improvements and refinements, but if you think it is broken, that's another story.

Disclaimer. I haven't shot with Sony or Canon in years and with the X-H2s, Fuji has now surpassed my last DSLR, the Nikon D700. I guess I could go chasing better, but as a birder, I am quite happy with the performance.

Tweakers Net said:

So today autofocus is where manufacturers can show their abilities. Does the firmware advantage, that Fuji always has had, mean that they can save their day? In other words, is fixing AF in firmware possible?

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If it is a hardware limitation then firmware won't fix anything. e.g AF performance in prior older models were affect by lack of processor power, slower sensor readout and older lens motor.

If there are inefficiencies/bugs in the algorithm then that can be tweaked.

We will see what Fuji does.


Shows their progression with AF from X-T1 to X-T5. Pretty sure X-T6 will be even better.

dark13star said:

There is nothing to fix. It isn't broken. Maybe it isn't as good as the best out there, but that doesn't mean that it is broken.

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While I would agree in general, there is definitely (at least) one case where it is (occasionally) broken, being focusing with a wider angle focal length and aperture stopped down, from time to time yielding an image where absolutely nothing is in focus - even though focus was confirmed (and image taken with "focus priority" and "AF+MF" turned off).

Not being able to really tell from the small LCD screen just makes it worse, becoming aware of the issue only once you`re possibly far away from the scene (or the moment) already. Focus distance scale does clearly show the unexpected "jump" in case the focus actually failed, though, yet you need to pay close attention... at all times, eh.

Eventually, one just doesn`t have the confidence in the focusing system any more, being the worst, as you never know when it may fail (not to say lie to you), going unnoticed until it`s too late to retake (if possible at all, that is, even if you see it right away).

That said, I (still) do believe this can be handled with a firmware update, just that it takes a lot of time (years) already, so can`t really say when (and if) it will happen... Having the camera working fine in majority of cases is a clear indicator the problem is not deterministic (constant), so the "only" thing is to find out what throws the focusing system off in those certain occasions (can`t even say "cases", as none of the variables have changed, and focusing works for the most of the time in the same scenario already... except where it fails for seemingly no reason, and worse - lying to the user it worked fine).

Even just admitting it failed to focus would make the experience so much better already, regaining trust that once focus is otherwise confirmed the photo is actually in focus.

The more I read about this the more I think the programming that is causing this flurry of complaints is in the users' minds as much as anything.

I'd love to see some methodologically sound comparisons of different cameras.

Tweakers Net said:

So today autofocus is where manufacturers can show their abilities. Does the firmware advantage, that Fuji always has had, mean that they can save their day? In other words, is fixing AF in firmware possible?

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I am afraid that not. It seems to be more related to certain older lenses. Even newer bodies liek the X-E4 or X-T3 struggle with those. What concerns me more is that the x100v is a camera that produces a lot of OOF images - and it is very new. It was the reason why I sold it.

a_c_skinner said:

The more I read about this the more I think the programming that is causing this flurry of complaints is in the users' minds as much as anything.

I'd love to see some methodologically sound comparisons of different cameras.

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I love to see that too - but I won't spend time producing it. Instead, I just moved on to other cameras and use the remaining Fujis knowing that I have ti be careful (so MF with peaking and BBF).

dccberry said:

Most of the "issues" are user related.

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How do you know? All I can tell you that in my case it is certainly not.

Tweakers Net said:

So today autofocus is where manufacturers can show their abilities. Does the firmware advantage, that Fuji always has had, mean that they can save their day? In other words, is fixing AF in firmware possible?

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Fuji have been “fixing” autofocus issues in firmware for the past 12 years or more (some of the original X series cameras were barely useable before their first firmware updates).

Nevertheless two things are true in 2022 - Fuji still lag behind the competition on AF as they always have done, and also they no longer have any “firmware advantage”.

Other manufacturers like Canon and Nikon have caught up on that score, while Fuji have become a lot less dependable when it comes to sharing the latest firmware improvements with existing cameras. It’s no longer a given that any improved system in their next model will automatically come to the XT5.

boogisha said:

dark13star said:

There is nothing to fix. It isn't broken. Maybe it isn't as good as the best out there, but that doesn't mean that it is broken.

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While I would agree in general, there is definitely (at least) one case where it is (occasionally) broken, being focusing with a wider angle focal length and aperture stopped down, from time to time yielding an image where absolutely nothing is in focus - even though focus was confirmed (and image taken with "focus priority" and "AF+MF" turned off).

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I remember discussion of this with the X-T3 and I went out and tried to reproduce it. I've never been able to. I know that doesn't mean it doesn't exist for some users, but it must require a certain set of conditions. Just not something I have ever encountered.

JNR said:

dccberry said:

Most of the "issues" are user related.

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Wow, you must have been really busy checking on everyone's technique to be able to draw that conclusion with such confident clarity. Apparently, we shouldn't discuss the issue any further. Congratulations.

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Technique is actually important, and I know that the camera works. I have missed images due to user error, but I don't blame the camera. Anything can be improved theoretically, and I think that folks should not expect the camera to do everything for them flawlessly- it just isn't ever going happen.

dark13star said:

There is nothing to fix. It isn't broken. Maybe it isn't as good as the best out there, but that doesn't mean that it is broken.

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I think this is an important perspective. The question is sometimes treated as: "Product X has 'the best' AF, so Product Y isn't good enough." But there are a couple of problems with this kind of thinking.

1. When you compare one paramount among two or more things, there's a very good chance that one will "score higher" than the other. Let's say that we compare the wealthiest people in the world. Both might be worth billions, but one might be worth a few more billions. But neither is poor — both are rich.

The same is true when we look at one camera performance parameter such as AF. Just because we can measure one as being the best (though there's debate about even this), it does not follow that the others are not excellent. To argue otherwise is equivalent to arguing that the second-richest person is... poor.

2. Beyond this, looking at cameras from a single perspective and ignoring others is a poor way to evaluate them. It is like trying to determine the best car by only considering top speed. Other things matter, too: mileage, comfort, how many it seats, how much stuff it can carry, brand reliability, and much more.

Having a very small increment of better AF among cameras that all AF pretty well may make sense if AF speeds the only or primary element of camera performance — but for most people that is not the case.

In defence of Fuji, their cameras are much cheaper than the Sony and Canon equivalents. Maybe you just get what you pay for

gdanmitchell said:

dark13star said:

There is nothing to fix. It isn't broken. Maybe it isn't as good as the best out there, but that doesn't mean that it is broken.

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I think this is an important perspective. The question is sometimes treated as: "Product X has 'the best' AF, so Product Y isn't good enough." But there are a couple of problems with this kind of thinking.

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Very well-put examples. I've snipped them for brevity in my reply, but encourage anyone on the thread to consider them in evaluation. The second richest person in the world, and third, and fourth, is indeed far from poor.

dccberry said:

Most of the "issues" are user related.

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Cobblers.