Confused about Sony TTL flash exposure policy

tokumeino

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I'm trying to learn how to use a flash with a Sony system. My camera is a A6600+30/1.4mm. My flash is a small Hahnel 360RT (Godox 350 clone with several improvements) set in TTL mode.

I would like to use TTL and balance ambiant vs flash light easily. So I've set the exposure compensation to correct ambiant light only. If I need to correct, I'll dial directly on the flash.

However, it doesn't work a I expect. In A or P modes, the SS doesn't go slower than 1/60 even if I dial a large postive exposure compensation. In S mode, the exposure compensation is hard to predict and does often lead to strong shifts in subject (flash) exposure.

Do you know a good ressource to learn auto exposure with flash with the Sony system ? A nice web tutorial, a YT video ? Anything not just advertising gear, but explaining the Sony approach to TTL.
 
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I'm trying to learn how to use a flash with a Sony system. My camera is a A6600+30/1.4mm. My flash is a small Hahnel 360RT (Godox 350 clone with several improvements) set in TTL mode.

I would like to use TTL and balance ambient vs flash light easily.
I hate to say this, but the easiest way to do this is if your camera is in M mode, not using auto-ISO, because there are so many different factors to juggle.

The more automated modes you use, the less control you have.
So I've set the exposure compensation to correct ambient light only.
Um. According tothis page of the a6600 user manual Sony is similar to Nikon. EC (exposure compensation) affects both flash and ambient, while FEC (flash exposure compensation) only affects flash exposure.

You cannot "set the exposure compensation to correct ambient light only", because EC also messes with the flash.

Typically, with flash, most folks shoot with the camera in M mode to to explicit control over iso, aperture, and shutter speed to have more precise control over the flash/ambient balance.
If I need to correct, I'll dial directly on the flash.
That only affects the flash. And whether you're changing iso, aperture, shutter speed, or flash power can all be a bit up in the air with the automated modes.
However, it doesn't work a I expect. In A or P modes, the SS doesn't go slower than 1/60 even if I dial a large positive exposure compensation.
Yup. Because the camera is now taking control over the flash/ambient balance, and it's probably nerfing your shutter speed so you can still handhold.
In S mode, the exposure compensation is hard to predict and does often lead to strong shifts in subject (flash) exposure.
Yes. Because of how shutter speed and flash work. This is more complex than you think it is, and you don't quite understand how everything works together because you're still thinking there's only one good exposure combination of iso, aperture, and shutter speed.

With flash photography, you have two separate exposures in each image, because you have two sources of illumination: ambient (all the light in the scene that isn't the flash) and flash.

Ambient exposure is controlled by iso, aperture, and shutter speed. This you know.

But flash exposure is controlled by iso, aperture, power and flash-to-subject distance.

Shutter speed (at or below sync speed) does not affect the flash exposure at all, but only the ambient light level in the image.

And because these sets of controls are different, the ambient can be at a different level from the flash. That's what's meant by balancing the flash against the ambient.

But if you're using an automated exposure mode that can also adjust the ISO or the aperture (say, shutter priority mode), then you're going to be messing with the flash level of exposure as well, because ISO and aperture both affect flash.
Do you know a good resource to learn auto exposure with flash with the Sony system ?
Just me, but an auto exposure mode is a whole helluva lot harder to control flash with than using M. You could possibly use aperture priority mode a little bit more easily than shutter priority. But for full ambient/flash balance control, you need to be able to lock both your ISO and aperture while keeping your shutter speed at or below your camera body's sync speed (1/160s). That generally means using M mode and a fixed ISO setting.
A nice web tutorial, a YT video ? Anything not just advertising gear, but explaining the Sony approach to TTL.
All TTL does (on any brand camera system) is control the flash's power, based on through-the-lens (TTL) metering. The camera sends out a metering "pre-burst", measures it, then, based on the exposure settings you have, adjusts the flash's power to what it thinks is a "good" power level for exposure.

But. Sometimes it can't guarantee a great flash exposure. If you're shooting at macro distances, it's easy for the flash to be too powerful, particularly if you're not in control of your aperture and ISO. If you're already overexposed in the ambient, then the flash is going to blow out, as well, because you're just adding even more light, etc.

With flash, you really can't just let the camera do all the driving in automated modes and have much control. You really need to be able to think your way through the light.

I would recommend starting with mastering ambient-only exposure if you haven't yet. Learn about iso, aperture, and shutter speed; google "the exposure triangle" or read Bryan Peterson's Understanding Exposure. And be comfortable shooting in M on your camera, first.

Then, hit Neil van Niekerk's Tangents website's Flash Photography Techniques section. This will give you the basics of on-camera flash, TTL, HSS, flash/ambient balance, and bouncing with an on-camera flash. You'll learn basics on how to control the intensity, direction, quality, and color of your light. Once you start getting frustrated with the limits of on-camera flash, then you can hit David Hobby's Strobist Lighting 101 for off-camera flash.
 
I've not used flash much on my a6600 yet , but on my Sony A mount gear it you want to expose for ambient light and add fill flash all you do is set the camera in whatever mode you like , I typically use aperture priority .

Compose the image , press the shutter button halfway to to lock focus and measure ambient exposure .

While you still holding the shutter button down , press and hold the AEL button and that will lock ambient exposure , whilst holding it , fully press the shutter and the fill light from the flash takes care of itself.

That's how I've ways used Sony and Minolta flashes , I would imagine they carried this over onto E mount bodies and as long as you've got a TTL compatible flash , it should work the same .

This method gives you correctly balanced flash without having to override anything , but you can still +/- exposure on either side of you wish .

Just go into exposure and the flash exposure compensation on you fn menu.

I'm not at home at the mo moment so I can't try on mine, but could later .

--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/neilt3/sets
 
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Thanks, I'll look after the refercences you provide.

I know well about global exposure "blending" ambiant and flash exposure (only aperture and ISO beeing common between with exposures ; shutter speed impacting ambiant and flash strength impacting flash exposure). And I never use auto ISO when using a flash. But once aperture and ISO are set, I'd like TTL to take care about flash strength and camera auto explosure taking care of speed (TTL, A mode, no auto ISO, basically). So when I state that it doesn't work as expected, I'm not a king of expert but my expectations are actually quite educated.


Ir appears that with the A6600, exp comp can defenitely be set to handle ambiant only (https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/1940/v1/en/contents/TP0002647328.html) and aside from that, using TTL exp comp on the flash gives another dial for the flash exposure compensation part.

Just, it doesn't seem to work in my preliminary experiments with a statue head and a background. In particular, when I shoot in A mode without a flash, exp compensation may lead SS to drop far slower than 1/60". But as soon as I put a flash, it doesn't allow for it any more. Right now I have my camera set in A mode, and the light conditions are such that shutter speed is automatically as low as 0.5" ; as soon as I power the flash on, the SS rises to 1/60" so I won't get the ambiant exposure which I should it flash and ambiant exposure were seprated on the camera.

And the https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/1940/v1/en/contents/TP0002670800.html option doesn't help much. Let me dial AutoISO. With the flash off, SS gets 1/30" at ISO 3200 when the option is set to STD. When set to SLOWEST, as expected, the SS drops to 1/8" and ISO drops, which is nice. However, as soon as I turn the flash on, SS immediately rises to 1/60". WWTTFF ? Give me the ambiant only autoexposure according to the compensation I've dialed in, please !

Is there an option that I could have set somewhere, which limits the SS when a flash is mounted ?

Yes I could set the camera in manual but I'm tired of experimenting. I want to take advantage of automatisms, but I'd like to make them work as they are supposed to.
 
I've not used flash much on my a6600 yet , but on my Sony A mount gear it you want to expose for ambient light and add fill flash all you do is set the camera in whatever mode you like , I typically use aperture priority .

Compose the image , press the shutter button halfway to to lock focus and measure ambient exposure .
Thanks. The issue I'm facing is that SS won't drop below 1/60" when exposing, while in the exact same conditions and settings, with the flash turned off, the same halfway press provides a 1/8"s. That's really stupid. Whatever the option in https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/1940/v1/en/contents/TP0002647328.html, always this stupid 1/60" that doesn't let me collect ambiant light as I want to. And I can dial whatever exposure comp, it doesn't change this 1/60" limit.
While you still holding the shutter button down , press and hold the AEL button and that will lock ambient exposure , whilst holding it , fully press the shutter and the fill light from the flash takes care of itself.
That makes sense to me and that's the kind of behaviour I'd like from my A6600. Unfortubately, there is this stupid 1/60" thing. And even with AutoISO and using https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/1940/v1/en/contents/TP0002670800.html, it doesn't change.
That's how I've ways used Sony and Minolta flashes , I would imagine they carried this over onto E mount bodies and as long as you've got a TTL compatible flash , it should work the same .

This method gives you correctly balanced flash without having to override anything , but you can still +/- exposure on either side of you wish .

Just go into exposure and the flash exposure compensation on you fn menu.

I'm not at home at the mo moment so I can't try on mine, but could later .
I'd be glad to know if you face the same issue in dark condittions where auto exposure without a flash would give something below 1/60".
 
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I shall have a look at mine when I get home .
 
I would recommend starting with mastering ambient-only exposure if you haven't yet. Learn about iso, aperture, and shutter speed; google "the exposure triangle" or read Bryan Peterson's Understanding Exposure. And be comfortable shooting in M on your camera, first.
I'm actually very familliar with that. I come from Fuji where I've practiced a lot to get proper exposure with the 3 dials only. But I came back to PASM mainly to enjoy proper custom modes (a PITA with Fiji when you need to change many settings). But now with PASM, I'd like to enjoy automatisms as well. If I want to shoot manual, Fuji is much better.
Then, hit Neil van Niekerk's Tangents website'sFlash Photography Techniques section. This will give you the basics of on-camera flash, TTL, HSS, flash/ambient balance, and bouncing with an on-camera flash. You'll learn basics on how to control the intensity, direction, quality, and color of your light. Once you start getting frustrated with the limits of on-camera flash, then you can hit David Hobby's Strobist Lighting 101 for off-camera flash.
OI know about deported flashes as well.

What I cannot figure out is the specific Sony way of automating ambiant and flash exposure. So I'm after very specific documentation. On YT, there are plenty of general videos about basic knowledge regarding the exposure diamond (by contrast to the exposure triangle without a flash). And there are plenty of videos selling specific gear. On the web, I can find the Sony documentation but it doesn work as it is supposed to (1/60" issue). I cannot find something about the best way how to put the general principles with Sony in TTL.
 
It appears that for some reason, I did accidentally set flash mode to "fill". And that's the reason why the SS won't go lower than 1/60. When dialing another mode such as "Rear curtain", then I can go below and gain full control of ambiant light exposure.

User error, as often 😉 Thanks for your patience and time. I can now experiment again with my close statue head and distant background to sort how the Sony system TTL works in different PASM modes.
 
It appears that for some reason, I did accidentally set flash mode to "fill". And that's the reason why the SS won't go lower than 1/60. When dialing another mode such as "Rear curtain", then I can go below and gain full control of ambiant light exposure.

User error, as often 😉 Thanks for your patience and time. I can now experiment again with my close statue head and distant background to sort how the Sony system TTL works in different PASM modes.
I've run a few tests on my statue. It seems to work as expected in A mode. The back wheel is used for exposure compensation (with the "ambiant only" setting) and I use the flash wheel for flash compensation. With a manual ISO :
  • I can dial flash comp from -3 / +3 without altering the background brightness
  • I also change dial exposure without any significant effect on the subject lit by the flash
So in TTL, it is indeed very easy with the Sony system to control flash and ambiant light totally separately, and get very decent quick results without a trial and error process and with varying distances from shot to shot.

However, when set to AutoISO, ambiant light remains consistent but I get pretty different results for the subject whith FASTER or SLOWER tendency to raise ISO rather than SS. It will need further investigations of mine but I'm releived. This 1/60" lower SS limit in fill mode concerned me quite a lot.
 
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So all's well again ? :-)
 

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