What AF System Coming Next?

Batdude

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Hi guys,

I do photography as a profession and to pay the bills, I don't shoot just as a hobby. I need gear that simply works. Playing around with a S1/S5 at the store is not the same thing as shooting in (all) type of situations, in good light and in poor light. You know how that is :-)

Renting it is all good too, but is the S1/S5 AF perfectly fine for professional paid work to begin with? That is why I am keeping my eye on a R6II or even a used D850 as I have mentioned in other threads. By the way I have never used neither of the cameras above either. The (only) thing that pulls me towards the D850 is the fact that I already have lenses for it. I do prefer mirrorless capability but it is what it is.

Sony has aaaaaalllllll the lenses you can have which is bloody fantastic, but I don't like the "computerized" feeling when using one. Don't get me wrong the camera does feel great on the hand but I don't like where the dials are located and don't like the feeling of it. Don't like the A7IV EVF either, to me it feels too cheap when looking thru it. The Canon's R6 actually looks better.

To be honest, my wife and I really like the Panasonic cameras, we really do. But what scares me is that once the light goes dim the camera will let me down. Again, I'm talking mainly about paid work since we often get thrown into very unpleasant situations from clients and you just never know how things will be until you get there. That's just how it is. We mainly like the S1, but we do notice that the AF from the S5 is indeed a bit more snappy. Having said that, I have no clue how the S5 performs in low light where there is less contrast, and this camera has a contrast detect AF system, right?

Having said that, since people are saying new cameras will be announced in February, do any of you know or has Panasonic already said what type of AF system they will use in their new models? Or will it be just a newer "more advanced" contrast detect system? Has it been confirmed it will be phase detect of is all this a "who knows" thing?

I mean, why would I buy a S1/S5 today when the new ones are around the corner? If I was photographing as a hobby sure I wouldn't mind getting a used S5 for $1200 that is a really good deal, but like I said, I need a camera that will simply focus in crappy situations. No exceptions.
 
You're not going to find anything in the L mount system to replace your D4 man. I would consider trying a D850, if I were you. Sell it for about what you paid for it, if you're not happy with it.

If you REALLY want to try mirrorless full-frame cameras, go with a Nikon. The Z9 is the ultimate, of course, but the price is in the Stratosphere. You may still want it. I say rent it to see. The Z7 II is a good alternative, which is quite affordable in comparison, and it has a very similar sensor (same number of megapixels).

The D850 will show you if 45 MP is for you, of course.

In a year or so we will know what's happening with the L mount world. The new Sigma should be announced or on the market by then, and Panasonic should have at least made an announcement. At the current time I would not even consider jumping into L mount, and I'm an L mount fan.

Currently Nikon, Canon, and Sony are all doing better than L mount, and I think that's a sad thing . . . and I would buy a Sony, because I could upgrade from whatever Sony I decide to get to an A1 or some future super Sony. Sony seems very committed to their line of E mount cameras. I'm not sure WHAT is happening over at Panasonic, and Sigma has made just two, tiny, physically identical cameras in L mount. I'm sure they'll eventually make a third, but when? How good will it be? Will it be worth the money?

If you really want to get some Leica lenses, then I suggest trying the Sigma fp L. It's relatively affordable, you can get Sigma's great little 35mm f2 or their amazing 105mm f2.8 Art macro or even their excellent 65mm f2, and then go for a Leica lens or two.

But that thing is definitely not what you're trying to get to replace your Nikon D4.
 
Having said that, since people are saying new cameras will be announced in February, do any of you know or has Panasonic already said what type of AF system they will use in their new models? Or will it be just a newer "more advanced" contrast detect system? Has it been confirmed it will be phase detect of is all this a "who knows" thing?

I mean, why would I buy a S1/S5 today when the new ones are around the corner? If I was photographing as a hobby sure I wouldn't mind getting a used S5 for $1200 that is a really good deal, but like I said, I need a camera that will simply focus in crappy situations. No exceptions.
Why would you wait until February to potentially get Panasonic's first generation phase detect system, if that is indeed what will be announced? It took Sony several generations to reach their current level, and they still foul up occasionally - witness the Sony A7iv eye focus issues. Expecting Panasonic to hit the level of the Sony A1 or Nikon Z9 first time round is probably not realistic.

If you absolutely need a camera that will focus in all situations then go for the best of the existing models. If you want high resolution and speed then be prepared to pay A1 or Z9 prices: those cameras have what you want and have proven themselves.
While I agree with your advice, the coming cameras from Panasonic (if it/they materialize) will not be Panasonic's first phase detect auto-focus mirrorless cameras. The S5 is . . . or at least the S5 is Panasonic's first full-frame mirrorless camera that has phase detect auto-focus. It apparently works quite well . . . better than the S1 and S1R.

Who knows what Panasonic will do? Maybe it's taking them so long, because what they are going to be bringing to the market is going to be SO good. We have to wait and see, unfortunately. Frankly, I'm hoping for a monster with a 94 MP stacked sensor that can do 20 fps, a raw shooting buffer that fits 100 shots, and dual SD Express card slots. I want 8Kp30 and 4Kp120 too. GPS would be nice too, as would a super-high-speed HDR viewfinder, which offers better resolution than anything else on the market. The World's best IBIS would be nice too, of course. The auto-focus needs to be World-class though, like at Z9 and A1 levels. Oh, and it would be nice if it only costs $4,995.00 too.

Oh, and it should have a name . . . not just a designation like S9. I suggest they call it the Panasonic Dream. Then they can follow that up with Dream 2 and Dream 3. Think that might get made fun of, and people might call it the Nightmare instead? How about the Panasonic Raptor? I seems to be working for SpaceX. I like Apex too.

;)

--
Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/
 
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While I agree with your advice, the coming cameras from Panasonic (if it/they materialize) will not be Panasonic's first phase detect auto-focus mirrorless cameras. The S5 is . . . or at least the S5 is Panasonic's first full-frame mirrorless camera that has phase detect auto-focus. It apparently works quite well . . . better than the S1 and S1R.
You might want to check the spec of the S5...

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-dc-s5-review/5

It's DFD, just like the S1 series. The only Panasonic camera that uses PDAF is the recently announced AW-UE160 video camera.
 
Here's why I'm waiting to switch:

Panasonic's lenses have breathing correction. Most of Sony's do not. Their most recent bodies do have it, but only with a few Sony lenses, mostly the $$$ GM series.

The bottom line is that for digital cinema, breathing correction is far more important than autofocus of any kind. The issue is that for event shooting, bulletproof autofocus is more important than breathing correction.

As for switching completely to one or another, Panasonic could win with an S5H body with internal 6K and PDAF. Sony could win with an A7SIV with internal 6K and breathing correction on more lenses.

Until then, I will probably rent a Sony A7IV or A7SIII before my next event (I've haven't been taking them due to the pandemic). I'll probably rent an S1H if I get a high-end cinema job.
 
If the best possible auto focus is top of the priority list the choice is sony or canon in mirrorless.

Panasonic might implement a hybrid PDAF system in the next generation of S cameras. But even IF they do, there’s no guarantee its going to be canon tier right away.

I just hope they don't try and copy sony too much, we don’t need every manufacturer producing derivatives of the latest alpha camera.
 
If the best possible auto focus is top of the priority list the choice is sony or canon in mirrorless.
If Panasonic wants to gain market share, they need to a) fix the actual AF and b) that perception

Panasonic might implement a hybrid PDAF system in the next generation of S cameras. But even IF they do, there’s no guarantee its going to be canon tier right away.
Panasonic has a very good reputation for continuously improving via FW. If the first shot is good-but-not-great yet, it'll already dramatically increase the perception.
I just hope they don't try and copy sony too much, we don’t need every manufacturer producing derivatives of the latest alpha camera.
If they copy what's great and keep what's great, I am happy.
 
The other day I tried to take a picture of a beige and red magnolia bulb, from a 2.5-3m distance with my S5 and the 70-300, with the sky as a background, mostly at 300mm and the AF would just not work. Any of the AF modes. It's my only experience of stubborn AF failure for picture on the S5. I don't do video.
 
Panasonic's contrast detect system depends on horizontal contrast i.e. vertical lines in your subject. If your subject only has vertical contrast i.e. horizontal lines, or is a solid, flat colour, then it's not going to work.

There have been a couple of occasions, typically when using the 70-300's macro capability and a small focus area, where that has completely caught me out.
 
While I agree with your advice, the coming cameras from Panasonic (if it/they materialize) will not be Panasonic's first phase detect auto-focus mirrorless cameras. The S5 is . . . or at least the S5 is Panasonic's first full-frame mirrorless camera that has phase detect auto-focus. It apparently works quite well . . . better than the S1 and S1R.
You might want to check the spec of the S5...

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-dc-s5-review/5

It's DFD, just like the S1 series. The only Panasonic camera that uses PDAF is the recently announced AW-UE160 video camera.
I was under the impression Panasonic had put PDAF into the S5. I wonder where I got that idea. Thanks for the correction.

P.S. Maybe I got the impression from the fact that Sigma put PDAF in the fp L, where the original fp had no PDAF.

--
Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/
 
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Panasonic's contrast detect system depends on horizontal contrast i.e. vertical lines in your subject. If your subject only has vertical contrast i.e. horizontal lines, or is a solid, flat colour, then it's not going to work.

There have been a couple of occasions, typically when using the 70-300's macro capability and a small focus area, where that has completely caught me out.
That seems to be the case for the failure I'm reporting but there other cases of failure as well, such as small fruits in a fruit tree. I don't want to throw the baby with the bathwater but there is a lot of bathwater
 
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There is also a rumor on 43rumors, that Panasonic and DJI are testing a LIDAR system.

I don't think we will see LIDAR implemented in a camera body, but I can imagine, that DJIs LIDAR System for the hotshoe could be optimized to support the DFD AF. Would be a nice solution for video or low light and could potenially make even older camera bodys "future proof".

 
LIDAR could be a game-changer, although it might be difficult to integrate with an ILC.

Recent iPhone Pros and some iPads have it.
 
LIDAR could be a game-changer, although it might be difficult to integrate with an ILC.
Yes, I don‘t think it‘s possible. The sensor must be positioned in a way that it has a „clear view“ on the scene. On smartphones it‘s easy because the lens doesn‘t protrude so much.

But as an add on for the hotshoe it seems to work very well.

Recent iPhone Pros and some iPads have it.
 
Out of all the mirrorless cameras I've owned, and trust me, I've owned too many, the Lumix S5 and S1 were my favorites. The ergonomics, functionality, menus, buttons, and dials are amazing. Packed full of amazing features like high resolution and pre-burst (although I wish this was raw, like Fuji/Canon).

Their only downfall was the AF. Now, it's not as bad as the internet tells you it is, and it's actually quite predictable in good light. Low light was a different story though, and as much as I wanted to love and keep the Lumix, I had to move on because of that reason alone.

The other small items that bothered me were inconsistent metering (mentioned here on the forum), and constant preview.

For your needs, your best option in full frame would probably be the Canon R6/R6II. If can tolerate Sony, the A7IV is also a great option. Even the older A7RIII has much better low light AF compared to Lumix S1/S5.
 
I mean, why would I buy a S1/S5 today when the new ones are around the corner? If I was photographing as a hobby sure I wouldn't mind getting a used S5 for $1200 that is a really good deal, but like I said, I need a camera that will simply focus in crappy situations. No exceptions.
You buy S1/S5 today for massive discounts. What is around the corner has better AF?? Unless they are switching to PDAF, I would not hold my breath.
 
For me, it's not the AF System, it's the flash system.

I have the Flashpoint system as I love being able to shoot with several strobes bouncing off of the ceiling to raise the ambient, and then easily shut them off from my hot shoe when shooting some portraits with an RF system, as Panasonics optical system just can't fit the bill when you are shooting a large venue.

But unfortunately, the RF sync takes a good half second to trigger multiple strobes, even when shooting at a fixed power and not using TTL.

This heavy lag has killed me on more than a few occasions. So much so, that I ended up turning it off and using just the flash on my hot shoe.

Aftermarket lens performance is so so for AFS and abysmal for AFC, but Panny f/1.8 primes are low cost and have saved the day on a few occasions. I got lucky with this Sigma 135mm f/1.8, as it's nowhere near as fast as Panny primes.

Thin focus at 135mm f/1.8 wide open. Sigma lucked out this time.
Thin focus at 135mm f/1.8 wide open. Sigma lucked out this time.
 
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For me, it's not the AF System, it's the flash system.

I have the Flashpoint system as I love being able to shoot with several strobes bouncing off of the ceiling to raise the ambient, and then easily shut them off from my hot shoe when shooting some portraits with an RF system, as Panasonics optical system just can't fit the bill when you are shooting a large venue.

But unfortunately, the RF sync takes a good half second to trigger multiple strobes, even when shooting at a fixed power and not using TTL.

This heavy lag has killed me on more than a few occasions. So much so, that I ended up turning it off and using just the flash on my hot shoe.

Aftermarket lens performance is so so for AFS and abysmal for AFC, but Panny f/1.8 primes are low cost and have saved the day on a few occasions. I got lucky with this Sigma 135mm f/1.8, as it's nowhere near as fast as Panny primes.
I don’t often use flash but when I have, it’s been with Lumix lenses. I’ve not had any issues with my cheap godox flash in AF-S and single shot, but have heard people complain that the system doesn’t actually work in burst modes.

My sigma AFC experience sounds like it has been much better than yours. Although critically my sigma lenses are the slower aperture 45mm and 100-400mm, so maybe I am getting away with it due to the larger DoF.
 
Hmmm... I often use multiple flash with my Godox RF flashes (two or three ad200's) and haven't experienced this lag. I always shoot AF-S though, and my shutter speeds tend to be in the 1/15th or 1/30th range. I'm guessing you are shooting closer to the 1/160th sync speed though.
 
My sigma AFC experience sounds like it has been much better than yours. Although critically my sigma lenses are the slower aperture 45mm and 100-400mm, so maybe I am getting away with it due to the larger DoF.
I think an issue is that - from what I have heard - the AF system is easier to acquire focus when shooting slightly stopped down (in addition to the increased DOF) - as opposed to trying to acquire focus when shooting wide open.

I guess the implication was when you are out of focus with a very narrow DOF, the AF system can hunt a lot before finding focus.

I would say that the times I find my S5 and S1 struggle the most is when I am relatively close to an object (but still further than the minimum focus distance) and being that close results in a narrower DOF, even when stopped down to f/8 or so (this is for things like product shots or some nature shots that are close to the 1:2 magnification range on the 24-105 f/4)
 

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