Hints at a Foveon future

Thanks for the nice reasoned response. Frankly I have seen this since I started reading Fido-Net before I started using Usenet in the late 80's. These tech related forums turn into advocacy forums and turn into flame wars. I have watched graphic card wars, Sound Card wars, Mac Wars, Amiga wars. You name it. The pattern is the same, players change.

Hey, I imagine the real geeks are having flame wars about Kirk and Picard. I think it is part human nature to take sides and "defend" them, or maybe offend in some cases.

For the most part it is enthusiasts from either side that get carried away. I seldom suspect actually industry shills as most of the rabid proponents actually turn off the masses (can you say SG10).

More below....

Laurence Matson said:

Laurence Matson said:

What would I do? As EVERYONE here already realizes on equal sized
output, X3 has a VERY significant advantage. I would concentrate on
showing the improvements in noise performance and colour
performance with the new sensor.

Click to expand...

Almost every exchange of a less than amicable nature at some point
touches on that. And this is where Sigma and Foveon are frankly at
a loss on what to say, from what I can observe. When they called it
a 3.34 MP sensor, B&H put it with the CFA rubbish. When they tried
to equate it with the output of a D60/10D class camera, they were
lamblasted for getting upity. When they labeled it an
industry-conforming 10 MP they were placed in a Clintonesque cloud
of uninhaled smoke.

Click to expand...

Frankly. I wish we could get a consensus on this and stop arguing this. In my book it is in the class of the 10D cameras. On some types of fine detail it is better than 10D class cameras.

Laurence Matson said:

Finally (for this posting at least), your statement about Canon and
Nikon (and Sony) not engaging in any efforts to discredit Foveon
and Sigma here is moot. We don't know who is behind most of these
names. I can figure out who you are and you will have no trouble
tracking me down, since I was naive enough to sign in under a real
name. However, who TopGlass was, as he trolled his way around here
took me about a week from his language.

Click to expand...

I use my real name. You can check my email for my last name. I seriously doubt TopGlass is a Canon or Nikon Shill. How about Rick Decker who had an SD10 before they were released? And has images on the Foveon web page. For the record I work in the Telecom industry lest anyone think I am a shill for some Bayer related company.

Laurence Matson said:

What is at least clear to me is that Foveon's effort is a very real
threat to their entrenched technology, and they would have been
foolish beyond all measure not to have done everything possible to
squash it before they established a bridgehead. Now that they
(Sigma and Foveon) have done that, they (Sony, Canon and to some
extent Nikon) have to discredit them in every way possible. This is
business. A quick review of Karl Guttag's postings one year ago
reveals a lot of martial language, and he is one person who will
lose a lot when this succeeds. Wrong foot on the wrong bus sort of
thing.

Click to expand...

Now who is the suspicious one. Karl struck me as someone much like myself who was annoyed with Foveons somewhat exaggerated claims of bayer fallability. Maybe I am naive, but I really don't think Canon is funding a dirty tricks division here. They clearly have no official response. I don't think they mention X3 anywhere.

Peter

Hmmm. Even when people post with real sounding names, it is hard to tell if it is real. But I would say 99% (or more) of people in these arguments are enthusiasts. I was shocked to see a real stakeholder ( Merrill ).

If I were to post on a Telecom list. I would possibly use my work email. I would almost certainly identify my corporate affilliation with the standard disclaimer that I am not speaking for my company. So people can be free to interpret my potential bias.

Here I don't as this area does not relate to my work, I post as a regular shmoe.

Peter

Laurence Matson said:

Fair enough.

But we really don't know who is behind a lot of these posts, as I
stated in my longer-winded response above. When someone openly
states who he or she is, it is far less suspect than blatant
attacks couched in pseudo-scientific language from behind the skirt
of an inpenetrable alias.

And I think many here would like more balance

Nuff said.

Peter G said:

I would be bitching if a Canon Employee showed up doing a one sided
comparison of low-light noise performance with an SD9 and 10D.

Click to expand...

--
Laurence ?? 08 LL

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Click to expand...

--
http://www.trytel.com/~pguidry/vacation.html

Peter G said:

If I were to post on a Telecom list. I would possibly use my work
email. I would almost certainly identify my corporate affilliation
with the standard disclaimer that I am not speaking for my company.
So people can be free to interpret my potential bias.

Here I don't as this area does not relate to my work, I post as a
regular shmoe.

Peter

Laurence Matson said:

Fair enough.

But we really don't know who is behind a lot of these posts, as I
stated in my longer-winded response above. When someone openly
states who he or she is, it is far less suspect than blatant
attacks couched in pseudo-scientific language from behind the skirt
of an inpenetrable alias.

And I think many here would like more balance

Nuff said.

Peter G said:

I would be bitching if a Canon Employee showed up doing a one sided
comparison of low-light noise performance with an SD9 and 10D.

Click to expand...

--
Laurence ?? 08 LL

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

Click to expand...

--
http://www.trytel.com/~pguidry/vacation.html

Click to expand...

--
Peter,

I have to give it to you, if you are not a lawyer yet you should become one. For a minute there you got me convince that I was a zealot, after reread what had started this conversation is that because you seem to doubt the identity of Mr. Merrill. In reality is that you just looking for way to attack, if wasn't credibility would be some others stuffs that I have no doubt you can come up with more, yet you made it sound so noble. I have to applaud you for that.

However, after reread I have come to conclusion that you are both zealot and troll in whatever justification you think you have, the truth have a way in revealing itself, the fact remain that you are single minded to attack sigma/foveon. Sg10 was just an excuse, which make you worst than he is. I am norminating you for Bernado Gui of the bayer kingdom.

I don't feel it is any point in discussing this further, you may believe anything you want, is your right, just as much as my right to believe what I want, just remember that before you do any attack or bashing anyone, it is just? or personal bias in form of just?

'Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.' Mark Twain

http://www.pbase.com/champa
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9

I must say you are working hard to convince me of your trollness. Where in any of this recent drek did I attack the technology?? I attack the cheap shots and I don't care who makes them.

I am sorry if the concept is too alien to follow. But in my book that recent comparison was a cheap shot. I sort of expect that from typical forum zealots. I didn't expect this behaviour from one chief scientists involved in the tech.

That is why:
A: I was surprised to find out he was the real deal.
B: I was dissapointed to find out he was the real deal.

Have a nice day now...

Champa said:

Peter,
I have to give it to you, if you are not a lawyer yet you should
become one. For a minute there you got me convince that I was a
zealot, after reread what had started this conversation is that
because you seem to doubt the identity of Mr. Merrill. In reality
is that you just looking for way to attack, if wasn't credibility
would be some others stuffs that I have no doubt you can come up
with more, yet you made it sound so noble. I have to applaud you
for that.
However, after reread I have come to conclusion that you are both
zealot and troll in whatever justification you think you have, the
truth have a way in revealing itself, the fact remain that you are
single minded to attack sigma/foveon. Sg10 was just an excuse,
which make you worst than he is. I am norminating you for Bernado
Gui of the bayer kingdom.
I don't feel it is any point in discussing this further, you may
believe anything you want, is your right, just as much as my right
to believe what I want, just remember that before you do any attack
or bashing anyone, it is just? or personal bias in form of just?

'Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small
people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you,
too, can become great.' Mark Twain

http://www.pbase.com/champa
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9

Click to expand...

--
http://www.trytel.com/~pguidry/vacation.html

Peter G said:

I must say you are working hard to convince me of your trollness.
Where in any of this recent drek did I attack the technology?? I
attack the cheap shots and I don't care who makes them.

I am sorry if the concept is too alien to follow. But in my book
that recent comparison was a cheap shot. I sort of expect that from
typical forum zealots. I didn't expect this behaviour from one
chief scientists involved in the tech.

Click to expand...

Speaking of cheap shot, it takes one to know one. I suppose cheap shot because it was factual not something that you can dispute, except for making a cheap shot at the one who done the test. The truth hursts sometime.

If you are so resolve in fairness, what bayer sensor that on the market today would be a fair to comparison to the 4.4um?

Peter G said:

That is why:
A: I was surprised to find out he was the real deal.
B: I was dissapointed to find out he was the real deal.

Click to expand...

I can see that, since now you can not hide behind sg10 anymore for excuse to bashing anything foveon/sigma.

Peter G said:

Have a nice day now...

Click to expand...

Same to you...

Peter G said:

Champa said:

Peter,
I have to give it to you, if you are not a lawyer yet you should
become one. For a minute there you got me convince that I was a
zealot, after reread what had started this conversation is that
because you seem to doubt the identity of Mr. Merrill. In reality
is that you just looking for way to attack, if wasn't credibility
would be some others stuffs that I have no doubt you can come up
with more, yet you made it sound so noble. I have to applaud you
for that.
However, after reread I have come to conclusion that you are both
zealot and troll in whatever justification you think you have, the
truth have a way in revealing itself, the fact remain that you are
single minded to attack sigma/foveon. Sg10 was just an excuse,
which make you worst than he is. I am norminating you for Bernado
Gui of the bayer kingdom.
I don't feel it is any point in discussing this further, you may
believe anything you want, is your right, just as much as my right
to believe what I want, just remember that before you do any attack
or bashing anyone, it is just? or personal bias in form of just?

'Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small
people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you,
too, can become great.' Mark Twain

http://www.pbase.com/champa
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9

Click to expand...

--
http://www.trytel.com/~pguidry/vacation.html

Click to expand...

--

'Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.' Mark Twain

http://www.pbase.com/champa
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9

It would be fair to compare sensors using the same size chip because that is really what it is all about. What can you do with the same area of silicon using todays technology using the sensor as a whole. It is a race X3 should win in the long run.

For Now.The 2/3" 3MP X3 sensor that looks like the first really workable consumer sensor size. Compare it to another Modern 2/3" sensor. Maybe two. Compare it to the worse 2/3" bayer and the best 2/3" bayer.

I would consider that fair. And I think the results could be in X3s favor without having to stack the deck.

Champa said:

Peter G said:

I must say you are working hard to convince me of your trollness.
Where in any of this recent drek did I attack the technology?? I
attack the cheap shots and I don't care who makes them.

I am sorry if the concept is too alien to follow. But in my book
that recent comparison was a cheap shot. I sort of expect that from
typical forum zealots. I didn't expect this behaviour from one
chief scientists involved in the tech.

Click to expand...

Speaking of cheap shot, it takes one to know one. I suppose cheap
shot because it was factual not something that you can dispute,
except for making a cheap shot at the one who done the test. The
truth hursts sometime.
If you are so resolve in fairness, what bayer sensor that on the
market today would be a fair to comparison to the 4.4um?

Champa said:

That is why:
A: I was surprised to find out he was the real deal.
B: I was dissapointed to find out he was the real deal.

Click to expand...

I can see that, since now you can not hide behind sg10 anymore for
excuse to bashing anything foveon/sigma.

Champa said:

Have a nice day now...

Click to expand...

Same to you...

Champa said:

Champa said:

Peter,
I have to give it to you, if you are not a lawyer yet you should
become one. For a minute there you got me convince that I was a
zealot, after reread what had started this conversation is that
because you seem to doubt the identity of Mr. Merrill. In reality
is that you just looking for way to attack, if wasn't credibility
would be some others stuffs that I have no doubt you can come up
with more, yet you made it sound so noble. I have to applaud you
for that.
However, after reread I have come to conclusion that you are both
zealot and troll in whatever justification you think you have, the
truth have a way in revealing itself, the fact remain that you are
single minded to attack sigma/foveon. Sg10 was just an excuse,
which make you worst than he is. I am norminating you for Bernado
Gui of the bayer kingdom.
I don't feel it is any point in discussing this further, you may
believe anything you want, is your right, just as much as my right
to believe what I want, just remember that before you do any attack
or bashing anyone, it is just? or personal bias in form of just?

'Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small
people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you,
too, can become great.' Mark Twain

http://www.pbase.com/champa
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9

Click to expand...

--
http://www.trytel.com/~pguidry/vacation.html

Click to expand...

--
'Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small
people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you,
too, can become great.' Mark Twain

http://www.pbase.com/champa
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9

Click to expand...

--
http://www.trytel.com/~pguidry/vacation.html

Peter G said:

It would be fair to compare sensors using the same size chip
because that is really what it is all about. What can you do with
the same area of silicon using todays technology using the sensor
as a whole. It is a race X3 should win in the long run.

For Now.The 2/3" 3MP X3 sensor that looks like the first really
workable consumer sensor size. Compare it to another Modern 2/3"
sensor. Maybe two. Compare it to the worse 2/3" bayer and the best
2/3" bayer.

I would consider that fair. And I think the results could be in X3s
favor without having to stack the deck.

Click to expand...

Good, now we are getting somewhere, if foveon is reading this, which I think at least someone there does...they might get this message forward and hopefully that they have time to do another test.
enjoy your weekend.

Peter G said:

Champa said:

Peter G said:

I must say you are working hard to convince me of your trollness.
Where in any of this recent drek did I attack the technology?? I
attack the cheap shots and I don't care who makes them.

I am sorry if the concept is too alien to follow. But in my book
that recent comparison was a cheap shot. I sort of expect that from
typical forum zealots. I didn't expect this behaviour from one
chief scientists involved in the tech.

Click to expand...

Speaking of cheap shot, it takes one to know one. I suppose cheap
shot because it was factual not something that you can dispute,
except for making a cheap shot at the one who done the test. The
truth hursts sometime.
If you are so resolve in fairness, what bayer sensor that on the
market today would be a fair to comparison to the 4.4um?

Peter G said:

That is why:
A: I was surprised to find out he was the real deal.
B: I was dissapointed to find out he was the real deal.

Click to expand...

I can see that, since now you can not hide behind sg10 anymore for
excuse to bashing anything foveon/sigma.

Peter G said:

Have a nice day now...

Click to expand...

Same to you...

Peter G said:

Champa said:

Peter,
I have to give it to you, if you are not a lawyer yet you should
become one. For a minute there you got me convince that I was a
zealot, after reread what had started this conversation is that
because you seem to doubt the identity of Mr. Merrill. In reality
is that you just looking for way to attack, if wasn't credibility
would be some others stuffs that I have no doubt you can come up
with more, yet you made it sound so noble. I have to applaud you
for that.
However, after reread I have come to conclusion that you are both
zealot and troll in whatever justification you think you have, the
truth have a way in revealing itself, the fact remain that you are
single minded to attack sigma/foveon. Sg10 was just an excuse,
which make you worst than he is. I am norminating you for Bernado
Gui of the bayer kingdom.
I don't feel it is any point in discussing this further, you may
believe anything you want, is your right, just as much as my right
to believe what I want, just remember that before you do any attack
or bashing anyone, it is just? or personal bias in form of just?

'Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small
people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you,
too, can become great.' Mark Twain

http://www.pbase.com/champa
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9

Click to expand...

--
http://www.trytel.com/~pguidry/vacation.html

Click to expand...

--
'Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small
people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you,
too, can become great.' Mark Twain

http://www.pbase.com/champa
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9

Click to expand...

--
http://www.trytel.com/~pguidry/vacation.html

Click to expand...

--

'Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.' Mark Twain

http://www.pbase.com/champa
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9