Seriously, Canon?

rz64 said:

nnowak said:

thunder storm said:

A used R is around 1000 euro these days. If you do some creative shopping with third party EF occasions you can get a whole lot of IQ for your buck. I got a used Tamron 17-35mm f/2.8-4.0 for only 310 euro, and a Sigma 100-400mm Contemporary for only 450 euro and a Sigma 50mm f/1.4 Art for only 350 euro. These prices are M territory, while the IQ is definitely a whole lot better.

We might also see the R6mkI come down in price, especially used ones. If you pair it with an RF 24-240mm USM and one or two primes it's more expensive than M, but it's good value for money imo.

Not everybody needs a stabilized 135mm. The Sigma Art is half the price, and if it's IQ isn't good enough for you..... you're beyond my level of pixel peeping.

Yes RF is expensive, but there are ways to keep those prices more down to earth making it still value for money.

That said it's a shame of course Canon is killing M. Canon isn't killing it because it's not capable. Canon kills M because it's too capable for it's price. Without the killing of M the R10 and that odd 18-45mm couldn't simply survive. Canon wants you to pay more for getting less, and this is how they do it.

Click to expand...

I was with you until you got to the conspiracy theories. Reality just does not agree with you. On the Japanese BCN rankings, the M50 and M50 II have been in the top 5 for multiple consecutive years. That was until the R10 was launched. The R10 has now been in the top 5 for the last two months and the M50 II has not. This was all well before any rumors of the M50 II being discontinued. Canon killing off the M system has nothing to do with protecting expensive RF gear and everything to do with it no longer being economically feasible to support multiple incompatible mounts. Canon is now selling about one quarter of the number of cameras they did in the past. It only makes sense that the camera lineup would also be about one quarter of what is was in the past.

While you may not personally like the R10, it is all-around more capable than the M50 II and appears to be well received by the masses. The RF-S lens lineup does look quite paltry, but so was the EF-M lineup at launch in 2012 The 11-22mm did not launch until a year later and was not sold in the USA until three years after the launch of the M system (2015). It took Canon six years to launch the eighth lens, the 32mm f/1.4. RF-S is not even at the 6 month mark yet. At least the R10 and R7 have native full frame RF options available instead of resorting to adapting the EF 50mm f/1.8 or EF 35mm f/2.0 IS like so many had to do with the M system.

Click to expand...

I would indeed support the opinion of thunder storm: "Canon kills M because it's too capable for its price".

It is you who is - once more - spreading conspiracy theories. Where does your conclusion, that the R10 "appears to be well received by the masses", come from? Just because it has been in the top 5 "for the last two months"?

Click to expand...

rz64 said:

What should be the reason to buy the R10? Because of two mediocre zoom lenses?

Click to expand...

rz64 said:

Where are comparable (to EF-M) native RF-S lenses? If they will come, it will be as thunder has written: "Canon wants you to pay more for getting less".

Click to expand...

j tokarz said:

My apolgies to all Canon M users. My dislike of Canon prices are related to the new RF system. I do still have a 7d mkii which i think is superb. I also had at one time a M5 with a couple of lenses, all superb and at a good price. My rants of the full frame RF still stands.

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Max5150 said:

j tokarz said:

My apolgies to all Canon M users. My dislike of Canon prices are related to the new RF system. I do still have a 7d mkii which i think is superb. I also had at one time a M5 with a couple of lenses, all superb and at a good price. My rants of the full frame RF still stands.

Click to expand...

They're all super expensive. Look at the prices of one of the mainstay lenses, 70-200 2.8. The current Sony, Nikon, and Canon mirrorless lenses are basically same price, although, the Nikon is currently on promotion. Are they all overpriced? I don't know, but it's safe to say they sure cost a lot.

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brent1395 said:

I'm surprised that in a dedicated M forum, there are people vehemently defending the way Canon is handling this dismantling of the M system. If Canon is planning on killing M (it sure seems like they are), they should come out and say it so that people who are still buying the gear know they are buying into a dead end. If Canon isn't planning on killing it, they should come out and say they will eventually be releasing a new M body. Saying that would boost their M sales greatly.

I'm sure someone will say that Canon can't tell us they are killing it because then they will lose money on their current M inventory. Well, the alternative is that their customers are going to lose money on their current M inventory, which is going to result in loyal customers feeling resentful towards the brand. And, unfortunately for Canon, losing money is what happens when businesses make strategic blunders.

I'm not in a big hurry, but I do want to get something in the next year with better video features, like the R7 or the last several Fuji cameras or the last couple Sony cameras all have. I know countless former Canon customers who have switched to Sony the last few years and a couple who have switched to Fuji. I don't want to switch brands, but if I want a small, powerful camera with good, small lenses and good video features, I have no choice but to switch. Canon is discontinuing their system that offered all those things. My bitterness about it means I won't ever return to Canon again. Too many other good options.

Click to expand...

nnowak said:

rz64 said:

nnowak said:

thunder storm said:

A used R is around 1000 euro these days. If you do some creative shopping with third party EF occasions you can get a whole lot of IQ for your buck. I got a used Tamron 17-35mm f/2.8-4.0 for only 310 euro, and a Sigma 100-400mm Contemporary for only 450 euro and a Sigma 50mm f/1.4 Art for only 350 euro. These prices are M territory, while the IQ is definitely a whole lot better.

We might also see the R6mkI come down in price, especially used ones. If you pair it with an RF 24-240mm USM and one or two primes it's more expensive than M, but it's good value for money imo.

Not everybody needs a stabilized 135mm. The Sigma Art is half the price, and if it's IQ isn't good enough for you..... you're beyond my level of pixel peeping.

Yes RF is expensive, but there are ways to keep those prices more down to earth making it still value for money.

That said it's a shame of course Canon is killing M. Canon isn't killing it because it's not capable. Canon kills M because it's too capable for it's price. Without the killing of M the R10 and that odd 18-45mm couldn't simply survive. Canon wants you to pay more for getting less, and this is how they do it.

Click to expand...

I was with you until you got to the conspiracy theories. Reality just does not agree with you. On the Japanese BCN rankings, the M50 and M50 II have been in the top 5 for multiple consecutive years. That was until the R10 was launched. The R10 has now been in the top 5 for the last two months and the M50 II has not. This was all well before any rumors of the M50 II being discontinued. Canon killing off the M system has nothing to do with protecting expensive RF gear and everything to do with it no longer being economically feasible to support multiple incompatible mounts. Canon is now selling about one quarter of the number of cameras they did in the past. It only makes sense that the camera lineup would also be about one quarter of what is was in the past.

While you may not personally like the R10, it is all-around more capable than the M50 II and appears to be well received by the masses. The RF-S lens lineup does look quite paltry, but so was the EF-M lineup at launch in 2012 The 11-22mm did not launch until a year later and was not sold in the USA until three years after the launch of the M system (2015). It took Canon six years to launch the eighth lens, the 32mm f/1.4. RF-S is not even at the 6 month mark yet. At least the R10 and R7 have native full frame RF options available instead of resorting to adapting the EF 50mm f/1.8 or EF 35mm f/2.0 IS like so many had to do with the M system.

Click to expand...

I would indeed support the opinion of thunder storm: "Canon kills M because it's too capable for its price".

It is you who is - once more - spreading conspiracy theories. Where does your conclusion, that the R10 "appears to be well received by the masses", come from? Just because it has been in the top 5 "for the last two months"?

Click to expand...

The point, which you seem to have missed is that even though the R10 might not be appealing to current M users, people are buying the R10

nnowak said:

What should be the reason to buy the R10? Because of two mediocre zoom lenses?

Click to expand...

It is Canon's cheapest camera with full sensor oversampled 4k and DPAF. Paired with the RF 100-400mm is it one of the cheapest options for long reach. The design is very familiar to an existing DSLR user while offering significant improvements over a DSLR. It is built using a mount that Canon is dedicated to supporting long term. Want more?

nnowak said:

Where are comparable (to EF-M) native RF-S lenses? If they will come, it will be as thunder has written: "Canon wants you to pay more for getting less".

Click to expand...

It took Canon six years to get to a total of eight M lenses. RF-S is not even six months old. The two RF-S lenses that have launched are at the same price as the comparable EF-M lenses.

Click to expand...

sgangker said:

nnowak said:

rz64 said:

nnowak said:

thunder storm said:

A used R is around 1000 euro these days. If you do some creative shopping with third party EF occasions you can get a whole lot of IQ for your buck. I got a used Tamron 17-35mm f/2.8-4.0 for only 310 euro, and a Sigma 100-400mm Contemporary for only 450 euro and a Sigma 50mm f/1.4 Art for only 350 euro. These prices are M territory, while the IQ is definitely a whole lot better.

We might also see the R6mkI come down in price, especially used ones. If you pair it with an RF 24-240mm USM and one or two primes it's more expensive than M, but it's good value for money imo.

Not everybody needs a stabilized 135mm. The Sigma Art is half the price, and if it's IQ isn't good enough for you..... you're beyond my level of pixel peeping.

Yes RF is expensive, but there are ways to keep those prices more down to earth making it still value for money.

That said it's a shame of course Canon is killing M. Canon isn't killing it because it's not capable. Canon kills M because it's too capable for it's price. Without the killing of M the R10 and that odd 18-45mm couldn't simply survive. Canon wants you to pay more for getting less, and this is how they do it.

Click to expand...

I was with you until you got to the conspiracy theories. Reality just does not agree with you. On the Japanese BCN rankings, the M50 and M50 II have been in the top 5 for multiple consecutive years. That was until the R10 was launched. The R10 has now been in the top 5 for the last two months and the M50 II has not. This was all well before any rumors of the M50 II being discontinued. Canon killing off the M system has nothing to do with protecting expensive RF gear and everything to do with it no longer being economically feasible to support multiple incompatible mounts. Canon is now selling about one quarter of the number of cameras they did in the past. It only makes sense that the camera lineup would also be about one quarter of what is was in the past.

While you may not personally like the R10, it is all-around more capable than the M50 II and appears to be well received by the masses. The RF-S lens lineup does look quite paltry, but so was the EF-M lineup at launch in 2012 The 11-22mm did not launch until a year later and was not sold in the USA until three years after the launch of the M system (2015). It took Canon six years to launch the eighth lens, the 32mm f/1.4. RF-S is not even at the 6 month mark yet. At least the R10 and R7 have native full frame RF options available instead of resorting to adapting the EF 50mm f/1.8 or EF 35mm f/2.0 IS like so many had to do with the M system.

Click to expand...

I would indeed support the opinion of thunder storm: "Canon kills M because it's too capable for its price".

It is you who is - once more - spreading conspiracy theories. Where does your conclusion, that the R10 "appears to be well received by the masses", come from? Just because it has been in the top 5 "for the last two months"?

Click to expand...

The point, which you seem to have missed is that even though the R10 might not be appealing to current M users, people are buying the R10

sgangker said:

What should be the reason to buy the R10? Because of two mediocre zoom lenses?

Click to expand...

It is Canon's cheapest camera with full sensor oversampled 4k and DPAF. Paired with the RF 100-400mm is it one of the cheapest options for long reach. The design is very familiar to an existing DSLR user while offering significant improvements over a DSLR. It is built using a mount that Canon is dedicated to supporting long term. Want more?

sgangker said:

Where are comparable (to EF-M) native RF-S lenses? If they will come, it will be as thunder has written: "Canon wants you to pay more for getting less".

Click to expand...

It took Canon six years to get to a total of eight M lenses. RF-S is not even six months old. The two RF-S lenses that have launched are at the same price as the comparable EF-M lenses.

Click to expand...

I agree that the R10's main target group is not the M users. My guess is that it is more targeted at the existing 'rebel' users who need an upgrade path (or exit path). These users are able to use their existing EF or EF-S lenses via adapter. Therefore, there is no immediate concerns on the lack of RF-S lenses for them.

Click to expand...

sgangker said:

I think Canon will eventually come out with some more RF-S lenses but it will be another long wait (probaly another six years). In the meantime, M users can still continue to enjoy their gears until there is a need to upgrade.

Click to expand...

BackToNature1 said:

"I think Canon will eventually come out with some more RF-S lenses but it will be another long wait (probably another six years)."

I am thinking it will be less than 12 months.

Click to expand...

nnowak said:

sgangker said:

nnowak said:

rz64 said:

nnowak said:

thunder storm said:

A used R is around 1000 euro these days. If you do some creative shopping with third party EF occasions you can get a whole lot of IQ for your buck. I got a used Tamron 17-35mm f/2.8-4.0 for only 310 euro, and a Sigma 100-400mm Contemporary for only 450 euro and a Sigma 50mm f/1.4 Art for only 350 euro. These prices are M territory, while the IQ is definitely a whole lot better.

We might also see the R6mkI come down in price, especially used ones. If you pair it with an RF 24-240mm USM and one or two primes it's more expensive than M, but it's good value for money imo.

Not everybody needs a stabilized 135mm. The Sigma Art is half the price, and if it's IQ isn't good enough for you..... you're beyond my level of pixel peeping.

Yes RF is expensive, but there are ways to keep those prices more down to earth making it still value for money.

That said it's a shame of course Canon is killing M. Canon isn't killing it because it's not capable. Canon kills M because it's too capable for it's price. Without the killing of M the R10 and that odd 18-45mm couldn't simply survive. Canon wants you to pay more for getting less, and this is how they do it.

Click to expand...

I was with you until you got to the conspiracy theories. Reality just does not agree with you. On the Japanese BCN rankings, the M50 and M50 II have been in the top 5 for multiple consecutive years. That was until the R10 was launched. The R10 has now been in the top 5 for the last two months and the M50 II has not. This was all well before any rumors of the M50 II being discontinued. Canon killing off the M system has nothing to do with protecting expensive RF gear and everything to do with it no longer being economically feasible to support multiple incompatible mounts. Canon is now selling about one quarter of the number of cameras they did in the past. It only makes sense that the camera lineup would also be about one quarter of what is was in the past.

While you may not personally like the R10, it is all-around more capable than the M50 II and appears to be well received by the masses. The RF-S lens lineup does look quite paltry, but so was the EF-M lineup at launch in 2012 The 11-22mm did not launch until a year later and was not sold in the USA until three years after the launch of the M system (2015). It took Canon six years to launch the eighth lens, the 32mm f/1.4. RF-S is not even at the 6 month mark yet. At least the R10 and R7 have native full frame RF options available instead of resorting to adapting the EF 50mm f/1.8 or EF 35mm f/2.0 IS like so many had to do with the M system.

Click to expand...

I would indeed support the opinion of thunder storm: "Canon kills M because it's too capable for its price".

It is you who is - once more - spreading conspiracy theories. Where does your conclusion, that the R10 "appears to be well received by the masses", come from? Just because it has been in the top 5 "for the last two months"?

Click to expand...

The point, which you seem to have missed is that even though the R10 might not be appealing to current M users, people are buying the R10

nnowak said:

What should be the reason to buy the R10? Because of two mediocre zoom lenses?

Click to expand...

It is Canon's cheapest camera with full sensor oversampled 4k and DPAF. Paired with the RF 100-400mm is it one of the cheapest options for long reach. The design is very familiar to an existing DSLR user while offering significant improvements over a DSLR. It is built using a mount that Canon is dedicated to supporting long term. Want more?

nnowak said:

Where are comparable (to EF-M) native RF-S lenses? If they will come, it will be as thunder has written: "Canon wants you to pay more for getting less".

Click to expand...

It took Canon six years to get to a total of eight M lenses. RF-S is not even six months old. The two RF-S lenses that have launched are at the same price as the comparable EF-M lenses.

Click to expand...

I agree that the R10's main target group is not the M users. My guess is that it is more targeted at the existing 'rebel' users who need an upgrade path (or exit path). These users are able to use their existing EF or EF-S lenses via adapter. Therefore, there is no immediate concerns on the lack of RF-S lenses for them.

Click to expand...

Exactly. I don't know about 2022, but every year prior, Canon has sold more DSLRs than M system cameras (a lot more).

nnowak said:

I think Canon will eventually come out with some more RF-S lenses but it will be another long wait (probaly another six years). In the meantime, M users can still continue to enjoy their gears until there is a need to upgrade.

Click to expand...

Since the RF-S 18-150mm is just a repackaged EF-M 18-150mm, Canon may move a bit quicker on other lenses since they can reuse much of the existing EF-M designs. If the rumors are correct about the upcoming R100 being tailored for vlogging, it would make sense to launch it alongside a repackaged 11-22mm and possibly 22mm pancake.

Click to expand...

sgangker said:

nnowak said:

If the rumors are correct about the upcoming R100 being tailored for vlogging, it would make sense to launch it alongside a repackaged 11-22mm and possibly 22mm pancake.

Click to expand...

That sound logical for the 11-22mm since there have been an increasing demand for smaller (aps-c) vlogging camera. Other camera manufacturers (Sony, Nikon etc.) have also introduced smaller camera which are video-centric. But for those users who are primarily into photography, it could be a long wait. Even Nikon has been quite slow in coming out with lenses for the z-mount aps-c camera.

Click to expand...

nnowak said:

nnowak said:

What should be the reason to buy the R10? Because of two mediocre zoom lenses?

Click to expand...

It is Canon's cheapest camera with full sensor oversampled 4k and DPAF. Paired with the RF 100-400mm is it one of the cheapest options for long reach. The design is very familiar to an existing DSLR user while offering significant improvements over a DSLR. It is built using a mount that Canon is dedicated to supporting long term. Want more?

Click to expand...

DrMaemo said:

MyM6II said:

thunder storm said:

That said it's a shame of course Canon is killing M. Canon isn't killing it because it's not capable. Canon kills M because it's too capable for it's price. Without the killing of M the R10 and that odd 18-45mm couldn't simply survive. Canon wants you to pay more for getting less, and this is how they do it.

Click to expand...

If that turns out to be the truth, then I am finished with Canon for good when it comes to buying new products. I agree that maybe for Canon it is too capable and a too good competitor to their stupid priced and stupid sized RF-s cameras. If they want to sell more than a few of these cameras (R10 etc), they can not have this great affordable system (M) existing at the same time. And with no new M bodies, there will be no new bodies that Sigma & Samyang etc. can make lenses for. (Maybe that is another reason for Canon.)

Canon does not want the money I have saved for buying new M bodies and/or lenses, it seems. So they will soon find its way to a different manufacturer. I can't spend more money on companies that act (or maybe I should say; don't act) like this. Sorry. No, I'm not sorry, I am angry.

Click to expand...

I feel similarly. I have two Canon M bodies and a Canon RP. I purchased the RP because of the cheap price for full frame sensor to obtain experience with full frame. I have a few full frame lenses, and more M-mount lenses. I use both systems.

I will use the Canon M bodies for as long as they last, and maybe buy another Canon M-mount camera body when my current bodies die on me because I enjoy using the lenses. Of course, my dream Canon M-mount camera body is one with IBIS and weather sealing; however, I understand that it won't happen.

I have learned that I prefer camera bodies that have plenty of buttons and dials and I have no use for 4k video or fast fps. So the new Canon RF and RF-S bodies do not inspire me for the type of photography I do (mostly landscape and macro).

For my next camera body purchase, I have been thinking of a Pentax K1 or K1 II or maybe a used Pentax 645Z for no other reason than I think I will like using these cameras and I think they are great value for money. However, I am in no rush to buy another camera body.

I don't concern myself with whether a camera company will keep producing newer camera bodies for the foreseeable future because photography is a hobby and spending the money is worth it if I enjoy using the gear.

Click to expand...

BackToNature1 said:

"I think Canon will eventually come out with some more RF-S lenses but it will be another long wait (probably another six years)."

I am thinking it will be less than 12 months.

Click to expand...

sgangker said:

I agree that the R10's main target group is not the M users. My guess is that it is more targeted at the existing 'rebel' users who need an upgrade path (or exit path). These users are able to use their existing EF or EF-S lenses via adapter. Therefore, there is no immediate concerns on the lack of RF-S lenses for them.

Click to expand...

sgangker said:

I think Canon will eventually come out with some more RF-S lenses but it will be another long wait (probaly another six years).

Click to expand...

sgangker said:

In the meantime, M users can still continue to enjoy their gears until there is a need to upgrade.

Click to expand...

R2D2 said:

sgangker said:

I agree that the R10's main target group is not the M users. My guess is that it is more targeted at the existing 'rebel' users who need an upgrade path (or exit path). These users are able to use their existing EF or EF-S lenses via adapter. Therefore, there is no immediate concerns on the lack of RF-S lenses for them.

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly! A very easy transition to a what they’ll find is a much more capable system, and a wonderful shooting experience.

R2D2 said:

I think Canon will eventually come out with some more RF-S lenses but it will be another long wait (probaly another six years).

Click to expand...

We’ll see more RF-S lenses in very short order. Canon is a “Lens Company” after all. ;-)

Agree though that it’ll take quite a while to fill out the RF-S lens catalog (if ever). Canon will continue to leave the “really good” stuff for Full Frame (just like they did with EF-M).

R2D2 said:

In the meantime, M users can still continue to enjoy their gears until there is a need to upgrade.

Click to expand...

Gosh yes. As much as I have invested in RF, I still enjoy the M-System shooting experience much more, and reach for my M6ii whenever I can.

R2

Click to expand...

m100 said:

R2D2 said:

sgangker said:

I agree that the R10's main target group is not the M users. My guess is that it is more targeted at the existing 'rebel' users who need an upgrade path (or exit path). These users are able to use their existing EF or EF-S lenses via adapter. Therefore, there is no immediate concerns on the lack of RF-S lenses for them.

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly! A very easy transition to a what they’ll find is a much more capable system, and a wonderful shooting experience.

m100 said:

I think Canon will eventually come out with some more RF-S lenses but it will be another long wait (probaly another six years).

Click to expand...

We’ll see more RF-S lenses in very short order. Canon is a “Lens Company” after all. ;-)

Agree though that it’ll take quite a while to fill out the RF-S lens catalog (if ever). Canon will continue to leave the “really good” stuff for Full Frame (just like they did with EF-M).

m100 said:

In the meantime, M users can still continue to enjoy their gears until there is a need to upgrade.

Click to expand...

Gosh yes. As much as I have invested in RF, I still enjoy the M-System shooting experience much more, and reach for my M6ii whenever I can.

R2

Click to expand...

Does not seem to be a lot of hope for the RF-S lens catalog.

Click to expand...

m100 said:

And no Sigma ?

Click to expand...

m100 said:

RF-s 18-150mm on a R10 is somewhat a complete kit anyway ?

Click to expand...

nnowak said:

rz64 said:

nnowak said:

thunder storm said:

A used R is around 1000 euro these days. If you do some creative shopping with third party EF occasions you can get a whole lot of IQ for your buck. I got a used Tamron 17-35mm f/2.8-4.0 for only 310 euro, and a Sigma 100-400mm Contemporary for only 450 euro and a Sigma 50mm f/1.4 Art for only 350 euro. These prices are M territory, while the IQ is definitely a whole lot better.

We might also see the R6mkI come down in price, especially used ones. If you pair it with an RF 24-240mm USM and one or two primes it's more expensive than M, but it's good value for money imo.

Not everybody needs a stabilized 135mm. The Sigma Art is half the price, and if it's IQ isn't good enough for you..... you're beyond my level of pixel peeping.

Yes RF is expensive, but there are ways to keep those prices more down to earth making it still value for money.

That said it's a shame of course Canon is killing M. Canon isn't killing it because it's not capable. Canon kills M because it's too capable for it's price. Without the killing of M the R10 and that odd 18-45mm couldn't simply survive. Canon wants you to pay more for getting less, and this is how they do it.

Click to expand...

I was with you until you got to the conspiracy theories. Reality just does not agree with you. On the Japanese BCN rankings, the M50 and M50 II have been in the top 5 for multiple consecutive years. That was until the R10 was launched. The R10 has now been in the top 5 for the last two months and the M50 II has not. This was all well before any rumors of the M50 II being discontinued. Canon killing off the M system has nothing to do with protecting expensive RF gear and everything to do with it no longer being economically feasible to support multiple incompatible mounts. Canon is now selling about one quarter of the number of cameras they did in the past. It only makes sense that the camera lineup would also be about one quarter of what is was in the past.

While you may not personally like the R10, it is all-around more capable than the M50 II and appears to be well received by the masses. The RF-S lens lineup does look quite paltry, but so was the EF-M lineup at launch in 2012 The 11-22mm did not launch until a year later and was not sold in the USA until three years after the launch of the M system (2015). It took Canon six years to launch the eighth lens, the 32mm f/1.4. RF-S is not even at the 6 month mark yet. At least the R10 and R7 have native full frame RF options available instead of resorting to adapting the EF 50mm f/1.8 or EF 35mm f/2.0 IS like so many had to do with the M system.

Click to expand...

I would indeed support the opinion of thunder storm: "Canon kills M because it's too capable for its price".

It is you who is - once more - spreading conspiracy theories. Where does your conclusion, that the R10 "appears to be well received by the masses", come from? Just because it has been in the top 5 "for the last two months"?

Click to expand...

The point, which you seem to have missed is that even though the R10 might not be appealing to current M users, people are buying the R10

Click to expand...

nnowak said:

nnowak said:

What should be the reason to buy the R10? Because of two mediocre zoom lenses?

Click to expand...

It is Canon's cheapest camera with full sensor oversampled 4k and DPAF. Paired with the RF 100-400mm is it one of the cheapest options for long reach. The design is very familiar to an existing DSLR user while offering significant improvements over a DSLR. It is built using a mount that Canon is dedicated to supporting long term. Want more?

nnowak said:

Where are comparable (to EF-M) native RF-S lenses? If they will come, it will be as thunder has written: "Canon wants you to pay more for getting less".

Click to expand...

It took Canon six years to get to a total of eight M lenses. RF-S is not even six months old. The two RF-S lenses that have launched are at the same price as the comparable EF-M lenses.

Click to expand...

MyM6II said:

m100 said:

R2D2 said:

sgangker said:

I agree that the R10's main target group is not the M users. My guess is that it is more targeted at the existing 'rebel' users who need an upgrade path (or exit path). These users are able to use their existing EF or EF-S lenses via adapter. Therefore, there is no immediate concerns on the lack of RF-S lenses for them.

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly! A very easy transition to a what they’ll find is a much more capable system, and a wonderful shooting experience.

M4Mobility said:

I think Canon will eventually come out with some more RF-S lenses but it will be another long wait (probaly another six years).

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We’ll see more RF-S lenses in very short order. Canon is a “Lens Company” after all. ;-)

Agree though that it’ll take quite a while to fill out the RF-S lens catalog (if ever). Canon will continue to leave the “really good” stuff for Full Frame (just like they did with EF-M).

M4Mobility said:

In the meantime, M users can still continue to enjoy their gears until there is a need to upgrade.

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Gosh yes. As much as I have invested in RF, I still enjoy the M-System shooting experience much more, and reach for my M6ii whenever I can.

R2

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Does not seem to be a lot of hope for the RF-S lens catalog.

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Agreed.

M4Mobility said:

And no Sigma ?

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Agreed.

M4Mobility said:

RF-s 18-150mm on a R10 is somewhat a complete kit anyway ?

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If you think M50 II + 18-150mm is a complete kit, but you want a larger (and heavier) camera plus a lens with a big lump on one end, why not?

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nnowak said:

rz64 said:

nnowak said:

thunder storm said:

A used R is around 1000 euro these days. If you do some creative shopping with third party EF occasions you can get a whole lot of IQ for your buck. I got a used Tamron 17-35mm f/2.8-4.0 for only 310 euro, and a Sigma 100-400mm Contemporary for only 450 euro and a Sigma 50mm f/1.4 Art for only 350 euro. These prices are M territory, while the IQ is definitely a whole lot better.

We might also see the R6mkI come down in price, especially used ones. If you pair it with an RF 24-240mm USM and one or two primes it's more expensive than M, but it's good value for money imo.

Not everybody needs a stabilized 135mm. The Sigma Art is half the price, and if it's IQ isn't good enough for you..... you're beyond my level of pixel peeping.

Yes RF is expensive, but there are ways to keep those prices more down to earth making it still value for money.

That said it's a shame of course Canon is killing M. Canon isn't killing it because it's not capable. Canon kills M because it's too capable for it's price. Without the killing of M the R10 and that odd 18-45mm couldn't simply survive. Canon wants you to pay more for getting less, and this is how they do it.

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I was with you until you got to the conspiracy theories. Reality just does not agree with you. On the Japanese BCN rankings, the M50 and M50 II have been in the top 5 for multiple consecutive years. That was until the R10 was launched. The R10 has now been in the top 5 for the last two months and the M50 II has not. This was all well before any rumors of the M50 II being discontinued. Canon killing off the M system has nothing to do with protecting expensive RF gear and everything to do with it no longer being economically feasible to support multiple incompatible mounts. Canon is now selling about one quarter of the number of cameras they did in the past. It only makes sense that the camera lineup would also be about one quarter of what is was in the past.

While you may not personally like the R10, it is all-around more capable than the M50 II and appears to be well received by the masses. The RF-S lens lineup does look quite paltry, but so was the EF-M lineup at launch in 2012 The 11-22mm did not launch until a year later and was not sold in the USA until three years after the launch of the M system (2015). It took Canon six years to launch the eighth lens, the 32mm f/1.4. RF-S is not even at the 6 month mark yet. At least the R10 and R7 have native full frame RF options available instead of resorting to adapting the EF 50mm f/1.8 or EF 35mm f/2.0 IS like so many had to do with the M system.

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I would indeed support the opinion of thunder storm: "Canon kills M because it's too capable for its price".

It is you who is - once more - spreading conspiracy theories. Where does your conclusion, that the R10 "appears to be well received by the masses", come from? Just because it has been in the top 5 "for the last two months"?

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The point, which you seem to have missed is that even though the R10 might not be appealing to current M users, people are buying the R10

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nnowak said:

nnowak said:

What should be the reason to buy the R10? Because of two mediocre zoom lenses?

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It is Canon's cheapest camera with full sensor oversampled 4k and DPAF. Paired with the RF 100-400mm is it one of the cheapest options for long reach.

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nnowak said:

The design is very familiar to an existing DSLR user while offering significant improvements over a DSLR. It is built using a mount that Canon is dedicated to supporting long term. Want more?

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nnowak said:

nnowak said:

Where are comparable (to EF-M) native RF-S lenses? If they will come, it will be as thunder has written: "Canon wants you to pay more for getting less".

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nnowak said:

It took Canon six years to get to a total of eight M lenses. RF-S is not even six months old.

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nnowak said:

The two RF-S lenses that have launched are at the same price as the comparable EF-M lenses.

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