Appalling (Amazon) shipping -> risk of internal damage?

tbcass said:

Doug J said:

The first figure in the Stern's spreadsheet is Gross Margin, which is the relationship between Net Sales and the Cost Of Goods Sold (COGS), in this case COGS is the cost to the retailer to purchase the goods. It excludes all the expenses/costs you mention. A 53% GM is roughly a 2X markup.

If she said they markup their purchases by 10X she either made a mistake or was having a bit of fun.

There are other columns in the spreadsheet that list other costs & expenses.

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Let me add this conversation occurred over 40 years ago. Maybe things have changed since then.

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That might explain it, no doubt there have been many changes over the years.


Cheers,
Doug

Victor Engel said:

Doug J said:

tbcass said:

Mackiesback said:

tbcass said:

jaberg said:

Doug J said:

This is from the link I posted previously. Stern Business School at New York University. Retail margins for Apparel is reported as 53%, approx. 2X cost.

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I suspect that the manager tbcass spoke to was being somewhat hypberbolic with her figure of “10x”. Not lying, per say — just exaggerating in the moment.

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In another post, I acknowledged the cost she gave did not include rent, heat, electricity, labor costs, or anything else you can think of. Those add up to far more than the actual cost of the product.

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Honestly Tom, I have heard similar numbers to yours bandied about over the years, and it made sense to me as a lot of clothes go unsold and they are made in very low cost labor regions of the world. Figured it was the nature of the product....

It seems that there is data posted here that disputes that, and I am not expert to be sure, but if that data is correct, every item on a Kohl's clearance rack is selling at a considerable loss.

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TBH I have doubts about the validity of that data.

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Here are several links that report gross margins for various industries. None come close to a 10x markup. This information is easy to find from reputable sources on the internet.

Note: there is a significant difference between Gross and Net Margins

The number I doubt is the one from that store manager.

https://www.statista.com/statistics...re-gross-profit-margin-by-category-worldwide/

https://csimarket.com/Industry/industry_Profitability_Ratios.php?ind=1301

https://www.magestore.com/blog/what-is-a-good-profit-margin-for-clothing-stores/

https://www.ecwid.com/blog/profit-margin-for-retail-businesses.html

Cheers,
Doug

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Gross margin is not the same as markup. It's also an average: income from sales at retail less discounts, etc., minus the costs of acquiring the goods, including shipping, labor, etc.
I would suggest to get an idea of the actual markup, compare prices on sites like alibaba to retail prices for the same goods.
Note I am not in any sort of sales industry, so take my comment with a grain of salt.

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Right, it's not exactly the same, elsewhere I posted they're related, don't want to disappear down a GAAP rabbit hole on terms & definitions.


Cheers,
Doug

Mackiesback said:

Mark B. said:

tbcass said:

Mark B. said:

tbcass said:

I received a clothing item (not Amazon) that was the wrong size. They sent us another but told us to keep the wrong item. I presume that the return shipping and restocking would cost more than the item itself. I knew someone who worked for a clothing retailer. They told me that the markup was about 10 times what the item actually cost. In other words, something that retailed for $60 cost the store only $6.

Click to expand...

10x seems way high. Retail markup would be around 2x, meaning for a $60 item they pay $30 wholesale. The actual manufacturing cost might be around half that, so total markup from out the door at the manufacturer to a rack at retail might be 4x.

Click to expand...

It may seem high but the girl was a manager and certainly had no reason to lie to me. Manufacturing costs amount to pennies because they are made in SE Asia by grossly underpaid laborers.

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No, not suggesting she was knowingly telling an untruth. There could be very specific items that end up with that kind of markup, but generally speaking 10x is not common at all. Even with China manufacturing costs.

Click to expand...

Lots of clothes come from Viet Nam etc, not China. Chine has gotten more expensive.

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The point still stands; from everything I've read as well as being involved with distribution facilities for 20+ years, it's not common for there to be a 10x markup.

Mark B. said:

Mackiesback said:

Mark B. said:

tbcass said:

Mark B. said:

tbcass said:

I received a clothing item (not Amazon) that was the wrong size. They sent us another but told us to keep the wrong item. I presume that the return shipping and restocking would cost more than the item itself. I knew someone who worked for a clothing retailer. They told me that the markup was about 10 times what the item actually cost. In other words, something that retailed for $60 cost the store only $6.

Click to expand...

10x seems way high. Retail markup would be around 2x, meaning for a $60 item they pay $30 wholesale. The actual manufacturing cost might be around half that, so total markup from out the door at the manufacturer to a rack at retail might be 4x.

Click to expand...

It may seem high but the girl was a manager and certainly had no reason to lie to me. Manufacturing costs amount to pennies because they are made in SE Asia by grossly underpaid laborers.

Click to expand...

No, not suggesting she was knowingly telling an untruth. There could be very specific items that end up with that kind of markup, but generally speaking 10x is not common at all. Even with China manufacturing costs.

Click to expand...

Lots of clothes come from Viet Nam etc, not China. Chine has gotten more expensive.

Click to expand...

The point still stands; from everything I've read as well as being involved with distribution facilities for 20+ years, it's not common for there to be a 10x markup.

Click to expand...

I’ve done some catalog photo work for clothing companies. St one point I was told that the company paid the factory in Vietnam about $2 for a dress that retailed for $25 to $30. Usually the company sells to a store, and the store sells to the consumer. I would expect the store pays about $10.

However, the company also has a division that sells direct to consumers on Amazon, and on their own site. If you are buy from their web site, you are paying $25 for a dress that cost them $2.

Rossi46 said:

Rossi46 wrote:
I guess the picture tells it all; the Sony box had all the opportunity to bounce all over the place due to this lack of filling.

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Amazon does the packaging and handles the shipping themselves at every stage. They know exactly what they are doing and how their packages are handled during the shipment and delivery process, all by their own people.

Rossi46 said:

I must say that the Sony box does not seem to have any damage at all.

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Of course.

Rossi46 said:

But still, with this kind of 'free play', It must have had a rough time.

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Why do you say that? Have you ever seen an Amazon truck and how the packages are handled? I've never seen any "free play"

Rossi46 said:

Should I be worried over internal damage within the camera?

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If the Sony box is not damaged, you can assume the Sony product inside it isn't either.

Rossi46 said:

Looking forward to your thoughts, because I can't decide if I want to keep the camera or return it.

Click to expand...

Amazon ships 11 million packages a day in the US, and they track the condition of every single one. That should tell you something.

The problem that I have had is with "fulfilled by amazon."

I ordered something from Beach Camera that was advertised as "new" recently. It arrived with a damaged box, damage to the item, missing accessories, and fingerprints all over it. It was not only obviously used, but HEAVILY used.

I of course returned it but wanted to determine responsibility. Amazon stated that they simply ship what Beach Camera sends them. Beach Camera pointed the finger at Amazon and said, hey order from us directly and there will be less issues.

I actually think that I will steer clear of both from now on. So their flubbing of responsibility actually lost them both customers.

Yavonis said:

The problem that I have had is with "fulfilled by amazon."

I ordered something from Beach Camera that was advertised as "new" recently. It arrived with a damaged box, damage to the item, missing accessories, and fingerprints all over it. It was not only obviously used, but HEAVILY used.

I of course returned it but wanted to determine responsibility. Amazon stated that they simply ship what Beach Camera sends them. Beach Camera pointed the finger at Amazon and said, hey order from us directly and there will be less issues.

I actually think that I will steer clear of both from now on. So their flubbing of responsibility actually lost them both customers.

Click to expand...

Usually, if you order something that is "fulfilled by Amazon", then the box shipped to you was shipped by the merchant to Amazon.

However, this is not always the case. Sometimes allows commingled products. Suppose there are multiple merchants all selling the same product (such as a particular brand, size and style of paper towel). With commingled products, Amazon considers all inventory with the same UPC code to be the same. If a customer orders one of these items, Amazon will ship product from the nearest warehouse, even if that particular inventory originated from another merchant.

Thus, when you buy a commingled product from Amazon, you can't be sure that the item you get came from the merchant listed as the seller.

Rossi46 said:

Hi all,
I received my new Sony A6400 a few weeks ago. These were hard to come by for a while, so I was very pleased with the delivery. The happiness did not last long unfortunately, when I discovered that the Amazon package was hardly 'filled up'. I guess the picture tells it all; the Sony box had all the opportunity to bounce all over the place due to this lack of filling.



I must say that the Sony box does not seem to have any damage at all. But still, with this kind of 'free play', It must have had a rough time.

Should I be worried over internal damage within the camera? Or are these manufacturer boxed designed in a way that they 'absorb' all the energy in case of bouncing and dropping and the camera stays safe?

Looking forward to your thoughts, because I can't decide if I want to keep the camera or return it.

Click to expand...

I just received a box from ebay packed about the same.

It was a recycled box that still had Amazon tape on it.

I complained to the person that shipped it and they said that is the way they ship and no one else has complained.

They have 100% feedback too.

I guess it was shipped by the Amazon standards that are becoming so common today ?

--
Dr. says listen to this every morning.

Just got a nice LED light from B&H.

Was raining all day and Fedex left it sitting in my front yard with no plastic bag on it.

The box was soaked !

The box the light was in so well wrapped with bubble wrap it was not wet and the light works fine !

--
Dr. says listen to this every morning.

Michael Fryd said:

Yavonis said:

The problem that I have had is with "fulfilled by amazon."

I ordered something from Beach Camera that was advertised as "new" recently. It arrived with a damaged box, damage to the item, missing accessories, and fingerprints all over it. It was not only obviously used, but HEAVILY used.

I of course returned it but wanted to determine responsibility. Amazon stated that they simply ship what Beach Camera sends them. Beach Camera pointed the finger at Amazon and said, hey order from us directly and there will be less issues.

I actually think that I will steer clear of both from now on. So their flubbing of responsibility actually lost them both customers.

Click to expand...

Usually, if you order something that is "fulfilled by Amazon", then the box shipped to you was shipped by the merchant to Amazon.

However, this is not always the case. Sometimes allows commingled products. Suppose there are multiple merchants all selling the same product (such as a particular brand, size and style of paper towel). With commingled products, Amazon considers all inventory with the same UPC code to be the same. If a customer orders one of these items, Amazon will ship product from the nearest warehouse, even if that particular inventory originated from another merchant.

Thus, when you buy a commingled product from Amazon, you can't be sure that the item you get came from the merchant listed as the seller.

Click to expand...

I’m fairly sure that is not the case in the UK where Amazon have many distribution warehouses. If I bought an item ‘fulfilled by Amazon’ from say, Carmarthen Cameras, I would expect that delivery to be for the product supplied by Carmarthen Cameras. So far that has been the case. Sometimes the item is not ‘fulfilled by Amazon’, in which case it comes direct from CC if they are listed as the seller.

Other identical products may be sold direct by Amazon of course and in that case they are not just the stockholder but also the retailer. In all cases, no matter whether sold by Amazon, fulfilled by, or direct from the independent retailer, if we pay Amazon they are the legal retailer and the customer has the same Amazon terms and conditions.

Michael Fryd said:

Mark B. said:

Mackiesback said:

Mark B. said:

tbcass said:

Mark B. said:

tbcass said:

I received a clothing item (not Amazon) that was the wrong size. They sent us another but told us to keep the wrong item. I presume that the return shipping and restocking would cost more than the item itself. I knew someone who worked for a clothing retailer. They told me that the markup was about 10 times what the item actually cost. In other words, something that retailed for $60 cost the store only $6.

Click to expand...

10x seems way high. Retail markup would be around 2x, meaning for a $60 item they pay $30 wholesale. The actual manufacturing cost might be around half that, so total markup from out the door at the manufacturer to a rack at retail might be 4x.

Click to expand...

It may seem high but the girl was a manager and certainly had no reason to lie to me. Manufacturing costs amount to pennies because they are made in SE Asia by grossly underpaid laborers.

Click to expand...

No, not suggesting she was knowingly telling an untruth. There could be very specific items that end up with that kind of markup, but generally speaking 10x is not common at all. Even with China manufacturing costs.

Click to expand...

Lots of clothes come from Viet Nam etc, not China. Chine has gotten more expensive.

Click to expand...

The point still stands; from everything I've read as well as being involved with distribution facilities for 20+ years, it's not common for there to be a 10x markup.

Click to expand...

I’ve done some catalog photo work for clothing companies. St one point I was told that the company paid the factory in Vietnam about $2 for a dress that retailed for $25 to $30. Usually the company sells to a store, and the store sells to the consumer. I would expect the store pays about $10.

However, the company also has a division that sells direct to consumers on Amazon, and on their own site. If you are buy from their web site, you are paying $25 for a dress that cost them $2.

Click to expand...

Hmmm, ok very interesting.

Rossi46 said:

Hi all,
I received my new Sony A6400 a few weeks ago. These were hard to come by for a while, so I was very pleased with the delivery. The happiness did not last long unfortunately, when I discovered that the Amazon package was hardly 'filled up'. I guess the picture tells it all; the Sony box had all the opportunity to bounce all over the place due to this lack of filling.



I must say that the Sony box does not seem to have any damage at all. But still, with this kind of 'free play', It must have had a rough time.

Should I be worried over internal damage within the camera? Or are these manufacturer boxed designed in a way that they 'absorb' all the energy in case of bouncing and dropping and the camera stays safe?

Looking forward to your thoughts, because I can't decide if I want to keep the camera or return it.

Click to expand...

I would be more concerned if it had been a vintage SLR with moving mechanical parts versus modern solid state elctronics.

Why do shipping companies backage the factory box inside another box?

Sony boxes are compact yet you could drop them on the floor several times without any real damage to the camera inside, there is no need for an additional box unless someone plays football with them before they get to destination.

m100 said:

Rossi46 said:

...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

m100 said:

m100 said:

I just received a box from ebay packed about the same.

Click to expand...

It was a recycled box that still had Amazon tape on it.

I complained to the person that shipped it and they said that is the way they ship and no one else has complained.

They have 100% feedback too.

I guess it was shipped by the Amazon standards that are becoming so common today ?

Click to expand...

Did your item arrive without damage from shipping? If so what was the nature of your complaint?

If the shipper is packaging in such a way that there is no damage, what is the issue?

Rambow said:

Why do shipping companies backage the factory box inside another box?

Sony boxes are compact yet you could drop them on the floor several times without any real damage to the camera inside, there is no need for an additional box unless someone plays football with them before they get to destination.

Click to expand...

There are a few good reasons to package a shipping box inside another box.

• If the customer is ordering multiple items, it can save on shipping to put them all in a single box, rather than use multiple boxes.
• If most of a companies orders contain multiple items, it may save money to ship single items in an outer box, rather than having different procedures for orders containing only one item.
• Some customers prefer a pretty box. By using an outer box, the manufacturer's box stays clean, and doesn't get dirty during shipping.
• A lack of shipping labels is helpful if the customer returns the item unopened. That makes it easier for the merchant to resell it to someone else as new.
• Placing an expensive item (such as a camera) inside a larger generic box, makes it a less enticing target for someone to steal the package.
• The manufacturer's box may already have shipping labels on it from when it was shipped to the seller. An outer box frees the seller from finding and removing those labels.

Aberaeron said:

Michael Fryd said:

Yavonis said:

The problem that I have had is with "fulfilled by amazon."

I ordered something from Beach Camera that was advertised as "new" recently. It arrived with a damaged box, damage to the item, missing accessories, and fingerprints all over it. It was not only obviously used, but HEAVILY used.

I of course returned it but wanted to determine responsibility. Amazon stated that they simply ship what Beach Camera sends them. Beach Camera pointed the finger at Amazon and said, hey order from us directly and there will be less issues.

I actually think that I will steer clear of both from now on. So their flubbing of responsibility actually lost them both customers.

Click to expand...

Usually, if you order something that is "fulfilled by Amazon", then the box shipped to you was shipped by the merchant to Amazon.

However, this is not always the case. Sometimes allows commingled products. Suppose there are multiple merchants all selling the same product (such as a particular brand, size and style of paper towel). With commingled products, Amazon considers all inventory with the same UPC code to be the same. If a customer orders one of these items, Amazon will ship product from the nearest warehouse, even if that particular inventory originated from another merchant.

Thus, when you buy a commingled product from Amazon, you can't be sure that the item you get came from the merchant listed as the seller.

Click to expand...

I’m fairly sure that is not the case in the UK where Amazon have many distribution warehouses. If I bought an item ‘fulfilled by Amazon’ from say, Carmarthen Cameras, I would expect that delivery to be for the product supplied by Carmarthen Cameras. So far that has been the case. Sometimes the item is not ‘fulfilled by Amazon’, in which case it comes direct from CC if they are listed as the seller.

Other identical products may be sold direct by Amazon of course and in that case they are not just the stockholder but also the retailer. In all cases, no matter whether sold by Amazon, fulfilled by, or direct from the independent retailer, if we pay Amazon they are the legal retailer and the customer has the same Amazon terms and conditions.

Click to expand...

In the US you can generally tell if you have received commingled merchandise. If the item has only the manufacturer's bar code (UPC/EAN) then it is likely commingled. If the item has an additional sticker with a ten character alphanumeric Amazon Standard Identification Number (ASIN), then it is likely not commingled.

Michael Fryd said:

m100 said:

Rossi46 said:

...

I just received a box from ebay packed about the same.

Click to expand...

It was a recycled box that still had Amazon tape on it.

I complained to the person that shipped it and they said that is the way they ship and no one else has complained.

They have 100% feedback too.

I guess it was shipped by the Amazon standards that are becoming so common today ?

Click to expand...

Did your item arrive without damage from shipping? If so what was the nature of your complaint?

If the shipper is packaging in such a way that there is no damage, what is the issue?

Click to expand...

This is so bad. It was medical equipment in no other box. The box had a rough ride and was busted up.

The top of the item got scratched up. The shipper blames the post office.

Why do you think B&H and Canon USA use so much bubble wrap ?

Dr. says listen to this every morning.

m100 said:

Michael Fryd said:

m100 said:

Rossi46 said:

...

I just received a box from ebay packed about the same.

Click to expand...

It was a recycled box that still had Amazon tape on it.

I complained to the person that shipped it and they said that is the way they ship and no one else has complained.

They have 100% feedback too.

I guess it was shipped by the Amazon standards that are becoming so common today ?

Click to expand...

Did your item arrive without damage from shipping? If so what was the nature of your complaint?

If the shipper is packaging in such a way that there is no damage, what is the issue?

Click to expand...

This is so bad. It was medical equipment in no other box. The box had a rough ride and was busted up.

Click to expand...

The bottom line is that additional packaging would cost the seller more than the damage it would prevent. It doesn't make sense for a seller to spend an extra $10,000 per month on padding and packaging, in order to prevent $500 in damage during shipping. Companies like Amazon, Canon, Apple, B&H pay attention to shipping costs and damage during shipping. They work hard at finding the most cost effective ways of minimizing damage during shipment.

If you are shopping online and looking for a low price, you shouldn't be surprised when you get a seller that tries to minimize costs.

If you want a say in how your camera gets packaged and treated while traveling from the seller to your home, then drive to a local camera store, and buy it in person.

m100 said:

The top of the item got scratched up. The shipper blames the post office.

Why do you think B&H and Canon USA use so much bubble wrap ?

Click to expand...

B&H and Amazon do not always use a lot of bubble wrap.

I have received items from B&H that were rattling around in a much larger box, with very little packing material.

I have received items from B&H where they have slapped a label on the manufacturer's box, and not used any additional packaging.

I have received cameras from Canon repair, where the camera is wrapped in about an inch of cushioning inside a single cardboard box.

I have received computers from Apple where a form fitting cardboard box cosmetically protects the internal product box. No additional packaging is used.

m100 said:

Dr. says listen to this every morning.

Click to expand...

Yavonis said:

The problem that I have had is with "fulfilled by amazon."

I ordered something from Beach Camera that was advertised as "new" recently. It arrived with a damaged box, damage to the item, missing accessories, and fingerprints all over it. It was not only obviously used, but HEAVILY used.

I of course returned it but wanted to determine responsibility. Amazon stated that they simply ship what Beach Camera sends them. Beach Camera pointed the finger at Amazon and said, hey order from us directly and there will be less issues.

I actually think that I will steer clear of both from now on. So their flubbing of responsibility actually lost them both customers.

Click to expand...

This is a different issue than the Amazon packaging issue, but an important one!

If I find an item on Amazon that I can also order directly from the source, I try to do that, unless the shipment terms from the source (cost/time) are onerous. Many merchants also use Amazon, not by preference but because so many consumers search for products on Amazon itself.

I have not had to buy any bubble wrap for maybe 1 year because of all the bubble wrap B&H sends me !

They have been sending the good bubble wrap too. The large Adorama bubble bags I don't care for.

They do it because it looks good and is kinda cheap insurance ?

That is why I do it !