Viltrox drops Canon RF Mount

Barleyman

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Interesting development in the third party lens world. It appears Canon has directed Vitrox to cease offering their RF Mount lens


Other DPR forums are also abuzz.

So what does this have to do with Nikon? Will Nikon follow suit? Is it a good thing?

I sincerely hope Nikon does not follow Canon into this morass.
 
Interesting development in the third party lens world. It appears Canon has directed Vitrox to cease offering their RF Mount lens

https://photorumors.com/2022/08/28/...-canon-to-stop-selling-all-rf-mount-products/

Other DPR forums are also abuzz.

So what does this have to do with Nikon? Will Nikon follow suit? Is it a good thing?

I sincerely hope Nikon does not follow Canon into this morass.
Thom had some interesting things to say about it too.

 
Interesting development in the third party lens world. It appears Canon has directed Vitrox to cease offering their RF Mount lens

https://photorumors.com/2022/08/28/...-canon-to-stop-selling-all-rf-mount-products/

Other DPR forums are also abuzz.

So what does this have to do with Nikon? Will Nikon follow suit? Is it a good thing?

I sincerely hope Nikon does not follow Canon into this morass.
This makes me glad(der) I chose Nikon Z over Canon RF when I upgraded from the EOS M system just recently, which I had been using for close to a decade. RF lenses seem to be either cheap and not that great or very expensive, with not much middle ground, and having no third-party options makes it worse. I hope Nikon sees this as an opportunity at gaining a competitive advantage rather than going down the same path.
 
Interesting development in the third party lens world. It appears Canon has directed Vitrox to cease offering their RF Mount lens

https://photorumors.com/2022/08/28/...-canon-to-stop-selling-all-rf-mount-products/

Other DPR forums are also abuzz.

So what does this have to do with Nikon? Will Nikon follow suit? Is it a good thing?

I sincerely hope Nikon does not follow Canon into this morass.
Well, as i mentioned in the comments of the article, I think as long as Viltrox doesn't impede too much on Nikon's lens sales, they likely aren't going to go after them. If anything, Nikon might like the extra help they're getting with the APS-C lenses at least (less burden on Nikon to release stuff for the APS-C). Of course that goes both ways because if Nikon sees other third parties filling in the gaps for the APS-C systems then they may be less inclined to put much effort of their own into lenses for that format.

I think in the end, if it's just Viltrox they go after, it will pass, but if Canon starts suing everyone under the sun for making an RF lens then I think it could be harmful to them both from a consumer standpoint, and from a standpoint of partnering with other companies, as they may fear being sued for something bogus (even though a contract may exist between Canon and said company). People who tend to go around suing and threatening other companies as a means to be anti-competitive tend to be looked down upon by society so IMO Canon should tread carefully in this area.

I think part of the reason people go to Sony is because Sony has made the E-mount open to anyone who wants to license it and thus gives consumers more options. They are still going to buy a Sony camera, but they may not buy a Sony lens, but Sony likely will get a cut of the profit (through any contracts) as a result anyway, so for Sony it seems like it worked out fine to allow third parties to develop lenses for their mount. I personally don't see why Nikon and Canon have to be so anti-competitive about it. To be honest, I have the lenses I need now, but there are some pretty compelling third party lenses I'd like to shoot with. But they aren't available for the Z or RF systems, and the only way to get to those lenses is if Nikon/Canon licenses the mount, or I move to Sony. I'd rather not, but this is likely what Canon and Nikon will end up doing (pushing people away) if they don't get onboard. Theyve had a few years to get their OEM glass out, now let the third parties fill in the gaps for the enthusiast market. Pros will almost always buy the OEM pro glass, along with some serious enthusiasts, but beginners usually won't and will prefer third party, so if anything, they need to do that to let people get into the systems on their own budget and work them up to the OEM glass.

--
NOTE: If I don't reply to a direct comment in the forums, it's likely I unsubscribed from the thread/article..
 
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Interesting development in the third party lens world. It appears Canon has directed Vitrox to cease offering their RF Mount lens

https://photorumors.com/2022/08/28/...-canon-to-stop-selling-all-rf-mount-products/

Other DPR forums are also abuzz.

So what does this have to do with Nikon? Will Nikon follow suit? Is it a good thing?

I sincerely hope Nikon does not follow Canon into this morass.
Well, as i mentioned in the comments of the article, I think as long as Viltrox doesn't impede too much on Nikon's lens sales, they likely aren't going to go after them. If anything, Nikon might like the extra help they're getting with the APS-C lenses at least (less burden on Nikon to release stuff for the APS-C). Of course that goes both ways because if Nikon sees other third parties filling in the gaps for the APS-C systems then they may be less inclined to put much effort of their own into lenses for that format.

I think in the end, if it's just Viltrox they go after, it will pass, but if Canon starts suing everyone under the sun for making an RF lens then I think it could be harmful to them both from a consumer standpoint, and from a standpoint of partnering with other companies, as they may fear being sued for something bogus (even though a contract may exist between Canon and said company).
What I don't understand yet, is how they can tell Viltrox to stop making lenses. Is a camera mount patented?
People who tend to go around suing and threatening other companies as a means to be anti-competitive tend to be looked down upon by society so IMO Canon should tread carefully in this area.

I think part of the reason people go to Sony is because Sony has made the E-mount open to anyone who wants to license it and thus gives consumers more options. They are still going to buy a Sony camera, but they may not buy a Sony lens, but Sony likely will get a cut of the profit (through any contracts) as a result anyway, so for Sony it seems like it worked out fine to allow third parties to develop lenses for their mount. I personally don't see why Nikon and Canon have to be so anti-competitive about it. To be honest, I have the lenses I need now, but there are some pretty compelling third party lenses I'd like to shoot with. But they aren't available for the Z or RF systems, and the only way to get to those lenses is if Nikon/Canon licenses the mount, or I move to Sony. I'd rather not, but this is likely what Canon and Nikon will end up doing (pushing people away) if they don't get onboard. Theyve had a few years to get their OEM glass out, now let the third parties fill in the gaps for the enthusiast market. Pros will almost always buy the OEM pro glass, along with some serious enthusiasts, but beginners usually won't and will prefer third party, so if anything, they need to do that to let people get into the systems on their own budget and work them up to the OEM glass.
 
Interesting development in the third party lens world. It appears Canon has directed Vitrox to cease offering their RF Mount lens

https://photorumors.com/2022/08/28/...-canon-to-stop-selling-all-rf-mount-products/

Other DPR forums are also abuzz.

So what does this have to do with Nikon? Will Nikon follow suit? Is it a good thing?

I sincerely hope Nikon does not follow Canon into this morass.
Well, as i mentioned in the comments of the article, I think as long as Viltrox doesn't impede too much on Nikon's lens sales, they likely aren't going to go after them. If anything, Nikon might like the extra help they're getting with the APS-C lenses at least (less burden on Nikon to release stuff for the APS-C). Of course that goes both ways because if Nikon sees other third parties filling in the gaps for the APS-C systems then they may be less inclined to put much effort of their own into lenses for that format.

I think in the end, if it's just Viltrox they go after, it will pass, but if Canon starts suing everyone under the sun for making an RF lens then I think it could be harmful to them both from a consumer standpoint, and from a standpoint of partnering with other companies, as they may fear being sued for something bogus (even though a contract may exist between Canon and said company).
What I don't understand yet, is how they can tell Viltrox to stop making lenses. Is a camera mount patented?
People who tend to go around suing and threatening other companies as a means to be anti-competitive tend to be looked down upon by society so IMO Canon should tread carefully in this area.

I think part of the reason people go to Sony is because Sony has made the E-mount open to anyone who wants to license it and thus gives consumers more options. They are still going to buy a Sony camera, but they may not buy a Sony lens, but Sony likely will get a cut of the profit (through any contracts) as a result anyway, so for Sony it seems like it worked out fine to allow third parties to develop lenses for their mount. I personally don't see why Nikon and Canon have to be so anti-competitive about it. To be honest, I have the lenses I need now, but there are some pretty compelling third party lenses I'd like to shoot with. But they aren't available for the Z or RF systems, and the only way to get to those lenses is if Nikon/Canon licenses the mount, or I move to Sony. I'd rather not, but this is likely what Canon and Nikon will end up doing (pushing people away) if they don't get onboard. Theyve had a few years to get their OEM glass out, now let the third parties fill in the gaps for the enthusiast market. Pros will almost always buy the OEM pro glass, along with some serious enthusiasts, but beginners usually won't and will prefer third party, so if anything, they need to do that to let people get into the systems on their own budget and work them up to the OEM glass.
I'm of the opinion that yet another bayonet lens mount lacks sufficient novelty for a patent, however canon has tried to patent a range of possible bayonet mounts:


It reads like they used the same author as their lens patents. We don't know what canon told viltrox, so the patent might not have figured into that case.
 
Interesting development in the third party lens world. It appears Canon has directed Vitrox to cease offering their RF Mount lens

https://photorumors.com/2022/08/28/...-canon-to-stop-selling-all-rf-mount-products/

Other DPR forums are also abuzz.

So what does this have to do with Nikon? Will Nikon follow suit? Is it a good thing?

I sincerely hope Nikon does not follow Canon into this morass.
Yeah, seems like good old days is over, I am a huge fan of high quality 3rd party lenses, and had totally 8 or 9 of those Zeiss DSLR lenses in ZE, and ZF /ZF2 for both my Canon and Nikon system at one point , and still have 4 updated MIlvus series and used them regularly on my DSLR as well and my Sony ML, and now the Z9. looks like those days are gone and will be no more 3rd party for the R system. Thanks to the low resolution sensor on the R3 so I jumped on the Z9 instead so I am enjoying all my E mount Zeiss and Voigtlander primes on it now, funny the Z system kind of became the universal lens system, I regular use all my Canon EF, Sony E, and my Nikon F mount lenses on it.
 
I'm of the opinion that yet another bayonet lens mount lacks sufficient novelty for a patent, however canon has tried to patent a range of possible bayonet mounts:
There are many patents in all areas where i think they lacks sufficient novelty. It seems to me that the patent offices go the easy way and accept anything. Then it is the part of the competing companies to make a claim of insufficient novelty. But this would produce great costs with uncertain result. Instead of working on the revoke of trivial patents, they make their own trivial patents or make license contracts. With this, the patent system is often abused and hinder inventions.
 
Interesting development in the third party lens world. It appears Canon has directed Vitrox to cease offering their RF Mount lens

https://photorumors.com/2022/08/28/...-canon-to-stop-selling-all-rf-mount-products/

Other DPR forums are also abuzz.

So what does this have to do with Nikon? Will Nikon follow suit? Is it a good thing?

I sincerely hope Nikon does not follow Canon into this morass.
Well, as i mentioned in the comments of the article, I think as long as Viltrox doesn't impede too much on Nikon's lens sales, they likely aren't going to go after them. If anything, Nikon might like the extra help they're getting with the APS-C lenses at least (less burden on Nikon to release stuff for the APS-C). Of course that goes both ways because if Nikon sees other third parties filling in the gaps for the APS-C systems then they may be less inclined to put much effort of their own into lenses for that format.

I think in the end, if it's just Viltrox they go after, it will pass, but if Canon starts suing everyone under the sun for making an RF lens then I think it could be harmful to them both from a consumer standpoint, and from a standpoint of partnering with other companies, as they may fear being sued for something bogus (even though a contract may exist between Canon and said company).
What I don't understand yet, is how they can tell Viltrox to stop making lenses. Is a camera mount patented?
The mount could be if it's unique enough but I think that's the primary concern here and they have targeted Viltrox specifically and the most likely reason is because Viltrox has figured out the AF protocols. I think there may be little Canon and Nikon can do to prevent people from making compatible devices for the RF and Z mounts, but they can protect the AF protocols if they can prove (to a court/lawyers) that there is some trade secrets being used that Viltrox is not authorized to use. You can reverse engineer a mount with some tools pretty easily.
People who tend to go around suing and threatening other companies as a means to be anti-competitive tend to be looked down upon by society so IMO Canon should tread carefully in this area.

I think part of the reason people go to Sony is because Sony has made the E-mount open to anyone who wants to license it and thus gives consumers more options. They are still going to buy a Sony camera, but they may not buy a Sony lens, but Sony likely will get a cut of the profit (through any contracts) as a result anyway, so for Sony it seems like it worked out fine to allow third parties to develop lenses for their mount. I personally don't see why Nikon and Canon have to be so anti-competitive about it. To be honest, I have the lenses I need now, but there are some pretty compelling third party lenses I'd like to shoot with. But they aren't available for the Z or RF systems, and the only way to get to those lenses is if Nikon/Canon licenses the mount, or I move to Sony. I'd rather not, but this is likely what Canon and Nikon will end up doing (pushing people away) if they don't get onboard. Theyve had a few years to get their OEM glass out, now let the third parties fill in the gaps for the enthusiast market. Pros will almost always buy the OEM pro glass, along with some serious enthusiasts, but beginners usually won't and will prefer third party, so if anything, they need to do that to let people get into the systems on their own budget and work them up to the OEM glass.
 
But if it's a "trade secret" then it's fair game, isn't it (short of industrial espionage)? I thought that's the point of a patent, you have to declare what you created, so others can't copy it. If you don't spell out what you own, then you don't own it.
The mount could be if it's unique enough but I think that's the primary concern here and they have targeted Viltrox specifically and the most likely reason is because Viltrox has figured out the AF protocols. I think there may be little Canon and Nikon can do to prevent people from making compatible devices for the RF and Z mounts, but they can protect the AF protocols if they can prove (to a court/lawyers) that there is some trade secrets being used that Viltrox is not authorized to use. You can reverse engineer a mount with some tools pretty easily.
 
What I don't understand yet, is how they can tell Viltrox to stop making lenses. Is a camera mount patented?
What little I know about the US patent system from my experience of being named in a few applications, pales in comparison to what I don't know about the Japanese system.

To my non-expert mind what feels like it should be patentable would be things like screw mount vs breechlock vs bayonet, or incorporating electronic contacts into the mount, or actuating apertures electrically vs mechanically.

What I really can't grasp is the idea that every single lens model seems to have a patent. Again to my non-expert mind the protectable innovations should include the basic optical themes like Tessar and Double Gauss. Or the use of aspherical elements at all, or the innovations in manufacturing them such as CNC machining of the rough forms vs hand grinding (I'm looking at you, onion ring bokeh) or the aspheric surfaces being molded in plastic from a master form. Likewise the expansion of fluorite or glass types beyond crown and flint. Or Canon's DO (followed a patent expiration's interval later by Nikon PF?).

The practice of combining new arrangements of obvious and/or public domain tech seems like it should be more in line with the concept of copyright protection. Hemingway didn't (in fact, couldn't) patent The Old Man and the Sea, and to the best of my knowledge there isn't a patent for every model year variant of the body shape of the Ford Mustang.

Disclaimer: Japanese Patent Law is in no way is bound by my naive preconceptions.
 
But if it's a "trade secret" then it's fair game, isn't it (short of industrial espionage)? I thought that's the point of a patent, you have to declare what you created, so others can't copy it. If you don't spell out what you own, then you don't own it.
The mount could be if it's unique enough but I think that's the primary concern here and they have targeted Viltrox specifically and the most likely reason is because Viltrox has figured out the AF protocols. I think there may be little Canon and Nikon can do to prevent people from making compatible devices for the RF and Z mounts, but they can protect the AF protocols if they can prove (to a court/lawyers) that there is some trade secrets being used that Viltrox is not authorized to use. You can reverse engineer a mount with some tools pretty easily.
Ultimately this is probably not going to go anywhere for Canon. Reverse engineering is not illegal, unless its forbidden by some agreement (for example, a software agreement prohibits reverse engineering of software if you use the program, which 99% of the time signifies you agree to the license agreement).

Canon may have a hard time with this one, even though it may look like an open and shut case to most people. I think there is more that's going to be involved here and it's possible even other vendors may get dragged into this as a result (both OEMs and third parties).
 
But if it's a "trade secret" then it's fair game, isn't it (short of industrial espionage)? I thought that's the point of a patent, you have to declare what you created, so others can't copy it. If you don't spell out what you own, then you don't own it.
The mount could be if it's unique enough but I think that's the primary concern here and they have targeted Viltrox specifically and the most likely reason is because Viltrox has figured out the AF protocols. I think there may be little Canon and Nikon can do to prevent people from making compatible devices for the RF and Z mounts, but they can protect the AF protocols if they can prove (to a court/lawyers) that there is some trade secrets being used that Viltrox is not authorized to use. You can reverse engineer a mount with some tools pretty easily.
Ultimately this is probably not going to go anywhere for Canon. Reverse engineering is not illegal, unless its forbidden by some agreement (for example, a software agreement prohibits reverse engineering of software if you use the program, which 99% of the time signifies you agree to the license agreement).

Canon may have a hard time with this one, even though it may look like an open and shut case to most people. I think there is more that's going to be involved here and it's possible even other vendors may get dragged into this as a result (both OEMs and third parties).
Viltrox sounds like they are not interested in a legal battle over this. Sigma has said something similar (they will make lenses when Canon gives them the RF mount spec). I suspect most of these third-party lens makers would rather focus their efforts on developing for mounts that won't give them this kind of trouble. So Canon will probably get their wish, to their own detriment and that of their users.
 
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But if it's a "trade secret" then it's fair game, isn't it (short of industrial espionage)? I thought that's the point of a patent, you have to declare what you created, so others can't copy it. If you don't spell out what you own, then you don't own it.
The mount could be if it's unique enough but I think that's the primary concern here and they have targeted Viltrox specifically and the most likely reason is because Viltrox has figured out the AF protocols. I think there may be little Canon and Nikon can do to prevent people from making compatible devices for the RF and Z mounts, but they can protect the AF protocols if they can prove (to a court/lawyers) that there is some trade secrets being used that Viltrox is not authorized to use. You can reverse engineer a mount with some tools pretty easily.
Ultimately this is probably not going to go anywhere for Canon. Reverse engineering is not illegal, unless its forbidden by some agreement (for example, a software agreement prohibits reverse engineering of software if you use the program, which 99% of the time signifies you agree to the license agreement).

Canon may have a hard time with this one, even though it may look like an open and shut case to most people. I think there is more that's going to be involved here and it's possible even other vendors may get dragged into this as a result (both OEMs and third parties).
Viltrox sounds like they are not interested in a legal battle over this. Sigma has said something similar (they will make lenses when Canon gives them the RF mount spec). I suspect most of these third-party lens makers would rather focus their efforts on developing for mounts that won't give them this kind of trouble. So Canon will probably get their wish, to their own detriment and that of their users.
I wonder, if a potential compromise is reached. "You can do RF mount lenses, but not RF lenses with AF".
 

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