-
Welcome to the new forums! Please read this first. For known issues we are working to resolve, click here.
What's wrong with my camera?
- Thread starter demonboy
- Start date
Bob Janes
Veteran Member
The lines are too sharp to be due to the camera shutter - and they are travelling in the wrong direction (the Leica shutter travels the long dimension of the frame).Hi,
I've just received my first roll of Kodacolor 200 shot with my Leica iiif. I used two lenses, the Voigtlander Snapshot 25mm and the Jupiter-12 35mm. I got the iiif serviced last year by someone who came recommended, albeit in SE Asia. He said the camera was already in good nick before he serviced it and it didn't need a curtain change. The film had not expired.
The first photos with the Voigt started off well.
Since these are on the dark side nothing was apparent. Then I started to notice something on the lighter images.
You'll probably notice it most on that last image: horizontal lines.
Then I swapped lenses and I realise that this probably wasn't a clever thing to do. I'm so used to swapping lenses on digital it hadn't occurred to me that maybe this isn't such a good idea on a very old film camera.
That said, the first shot after swapping was half decent.
...but of course there are so many shadows those lines aren't apparent. Unfortunately every shot after that the lines got really bad.
They are most apparent in the sky in the above shot. I thought perhaps standing side on to the sun and not using a hood contributed to some flare, hence the washed out look, but I got this even with the sun behind me...
Not all were washed out, but the lines remained.
But by the time I got to my last frame it had all gone horribly wrong. Again, sun directly behind me...
Regarding the lines, I'm assuming either the advance mechanism is too tight (stretching?) or something like the curtain or back is applying too much pressure. Does anyone recognise this symptom?
What about this light issue? Why does it look washed out on only half the images? Would changing the lens mid-roll be the cause? This doesn't seem logical as the frame before and after the change would be the most affected. The washing out happened towards the last ten exposures. Of course my copy of the Jupiter-12 could be an issue but I can't work out why the shots taken with it are inconsistent.
Maybe the two different issues are caused by the same fault, or maybe there's a problem with both camera and lens. Or maybe I loaded the film badly as it took three attempts over half an hour! I used the film trim tool so I was pretty confident it was loaded correctly by the end and the film appeared to be winding on normally.
I could run another roll through the camera to see if it was just a rogue roll, but I'm leaving the UK today to return to Indonesia, where getting film processed is not easy. Not impossible but not fast.
Any feedback appreciated, thanks.
I'd suspect the scanner - and as the lines are along the long dimension, I's suspect they were scanned with a Plustek 87** type scanner (usually film scanners scan across the short dimension, but the manually advancing Plusteks go in the other direction).
If that is not the case, I'd suspect an issue in processing.
--
Save a life, become a stem-cell donor.
Hello to Jason Isaacs!
Bob Janes
Veteran Member
This is a useful shot for shot as it shows two different problems - one of which is down the the camera and one that is down to processing or scanning.
The darkened band running down the frame on the right is due to a horizontally running shutter capping at the end of its travel - in effect the second curtain is catching up with the first curtain, resulting in a smaller slit and less exposure on the negative at that point. Capping tends to be more obvious at higher speeds.
The horizontal lines are likely to be caused either during processing as the film was pulled through something, or during scanning (although in that case it has been scanned with something that scans across the long edge, which would either be one of the Plustek manual advance scanners, or a flatbed).
--
Save a life, become a stem-cell donor.
Hello to Jason Isaacs!
tassienick
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,830
- Solutions
- 2
- Reaction score
- 2,232
No, both are due to the camera (this is my scan, from my negs and my III)...This is a useful shot for shot as it shows two different problems - one of which is down the the camera and one that is down to processing or scanning.
Correct.
Incorrect.
The horizontal lines are visible on the negs (so not scanning).
They are also *only* visible on the frames shot at 1/500" (max speed on a III), and always take the same form (faint to the left of the frame, increasing in density until the shutter almost caps on the right).
So unless you have an explanation for why a developing issue would cause an effect *only* visible on specific frames (which all happen to be shot at the same speed), and irregular from one side of the individual frame to the other, I'm going to stick with the frayed and capping shutter theory.
Also, the shutter actually was frayed and capping
The OP's images are tagged as if a Noritsu scanner was used.
If the OP's issue was a scanning issue does it necessarily relate to the direction of the scan? I'd been assuming they were more some kind of interference fringes from spurious refection or simlar.
Alan
demonboy
Forum Enthusiast
Correct. They use a Noritsu HS-1800 scanner.
Overrank
Veteran Member
- Messages
- 7,921
- Solutions
- 14
- Reaction score
- 4,437
tassienick said that all his similar photos were a 1/500s, could yours all have taken at that speed (which might explain the underexposure in some ?)
demonboy
Forum Enthusiast
I think most likely all taken at 1/250 since I was using 200 ISO film. I would have been adjusting the aperture and, since it was my first time using the Jupiter-12, maybe less inclined to change the aperture per shot since the aperture dial is in the lens. You can see in the shot of the women with prams how underexposed the sky is, so that was probably shot at f16.
Bob Janes
Veteran Member
I stress mine was only an opinion and other opinions are perfectly valid. If it is on the negative I'd still suspect something in the processing.No, both are due to the camera (this is my scan, from my negs and my III)...This is a useful shot for shot as it shows two different problems - one of which is down the the camera and one that is down to processing or scanning.
Correct.
Incorrect.
The horizontal lines are visible on the negs (so not scanning).
They are also *only* visible on the frames shot at 1/500" (max speed on a III), and always take the same form (faint to the left of the frame, increasing in density until the shutter almost caps on the right).
So unless you have an explanation for why a developing issue would cause an effect *only* visible on specific frames (which all happen to be shot at the same speed), and irregular from one side of the individual frame to the other, I'm going to stick with the frayed and capping shutter theory.
Only... if it is down to a frayed leading (or trailing) edge:Also, the shutter actually was frayed and capping
Wouldn't the frayed area be travelling at the same speed as the rest of the curtain - why would that leave an unexposed band across the negative?
I guess the first curtain could be leaving strands of material in its wake, but I'd expect that to be very visible with the back off and it doesn't explain why it only shows up at 1/500.
Other than that, I don't know, like I say it is just an opinion, feel free to take it or leave it as you wish.
--
Save a life, become a stem-cell donor.
Hello to Jason Isaacs!
sprocket-docket
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,049
- Solutions
- 3
- Reaction score
- 753
Looks like a scanner issue to me, no way do those lines look analogue.
So to OP demonboy - what you should do if there is no film in the camera is to look at the vertical edges of the shutter curtains with the camera open as you continually slowly wind the camera/click shutter.
The narrow slit you can see in the image that FrancoD posted probably corresponds to what travels across the film at the fastest shutter speed. It's about 1 mm wide. You will not be able to see this slit as such (it travels too fast when you take a shot), just the edges of the shutter curtains that form it as they reset position before you take the shot. The question is are the edges frayed enough so the width of the 1 mm wide slit would be significantly reduced at many points?
Alan
The narrow slit you can see in the image that FrancoD posted probably corresponds to what travels across the film at the fastest shutter speed. It's about 1 mm wide. You will not be able to see this slit as such (it travels too fast when you take a shot), just the edges of the shutter curtains that form it as they reset position before you take the shot. The question is are the edges frayed enough so the width of the 1 mm wide slit would be significantly reduced at many points?
Alan
demonboy
Forum Enthusiast
Thanks, Alan, much appreciated. I'm currently on my way to Lombok so will investigate further after I've settled in. Also the developer has got back to me and said they will look into this at their end. I hope to get an answer from them today and will update accordingly.
demonboy
Forum Enthusiast
I'm currently in Jakarta and took a taxi ride across town this morning to pretty much the only developer in Indonesia. It was difficult to get straight answers from them about their scanning process due to language barriers, plus the usual embarrassment at being questioned by a foreigner via Google translate! It's a convoluted process of posting backwards and forwards with USB sticks but much cheaper than the UK. The upshot is that I may have found a local (two islands away) developer, so I can run another test roll through the iiif sooner than I'd anticipated. I've no idea what their scan process is but it's something.
demonboy
Forum Enthusiast
OUTCOME
The developer got back to me and had this to say:
I've spoken to my colleague now and we think it's a camera fault because the banding can actually be seen on the negative when viewed on a light box. My colleague did actually flag this up when he sent the files over (there's a little comments box on the WeTransfer link). We're unsure exactly what the fault may be, but it's mostly likely something to do with the shutter.
Well I missed the note in WeTransfer! That might have saved some time but I appreciate them checking the negs and getting back to me so quickly (since this was discovered over the weekend in between packing and flying).
Next thing is to take a look at that shutter and then decide what to do next. I know of one recommended Leica CLA company in the UK and could ship to them. They have a months-long queue but I won't be back in the UK till next year anyway.
Thank you to everyone who replied, it's much appreciated and I've learned a few things along the way.
The developer got back to me and had this to say:
I've spoken to my colleague now and we think it's a camera fault because the banding can actually be seen on the negative when viewed on a light box. My colleague did actually flag this up when he sent the files over (there's a little comments box on the WeTransfer link). We're unsure exactly what the fault may be, but it's mostly likely something to do with the shutter.
Well I missed the note in WeTransfer! That might have saved some time but I appreciate them checking the negs and getting back to me so quickly (since this was discovered over the weekend in between packing and flying).
Next thing is to take a look at that shutter and then decide what to do next. I know of one recommended Leica CLA company in the UK and could ship to them. They have a months-long queue but I won't be back in the UK till next year anyway.
Thank you to everyone who replied, it's much appreciated and I've learned a few things along the way.
Bob Janes
Veteran Member
It is an interesting thought and might well explain the bands - However, I'm not sure about the dimensions you are quoting.
The shutter is a cloth horizontally running one - probably with a flash synch at 1/60. This means that at 1/60 the shutter is fully open, with no slit. at twice that speed (1/125), the slit would be at least half the size of the long side (18mm). at 1/250 it would be 9mm and at 1/500 it would be 4.5mm.
I guess some fraying on the leading or trailing edge (or maybe both) could account for some reduction in exposure that might account for those bands at that speed - but the fraying wold have to be quite severe. If it is that bad, it is probably worth getting the shutter serviced sooner rather than later, as I would imagine it can't be very far from failure.
I don't know much about the IIIf but a quick google search suggests at least early models had flash sync of only 1/30 so the slit could be as small as 2.25mm.
Alan
That's progress then! You could still try another roll to see if the problem goes away at slightly slower shutter speeds. If you correct your sometime under exposure and tend to err on over-exposing slightly (which is OK for negative film) that might be enough to allow you to slow the shutter down enough. Or using 100ISO film would also help.
Alan
Similar threads
Keyboard shortcuts
- f
- Forum