Do you visit Zoos for wildlife photography?

To continue the train of thought from some of the above posts.

It seems incredibly unnatural to go to a garden or a arboretum and take pictures of flowers. After all, they are not there “naturally“ as they would be in the wild. They were planted there artificially. Probably have also had man-made fertilizer applied to them, and a man-made landscape watering system applied to them. Take no pictures of any man-made lakes, streams, or artificial waterfalls. I mean, what’s the point?

Tsk tsk… 😊 (and yes… I’m joking)

Happy Shooting
You have a point there. I mean, plants clearly suffer if they are planted in a garden. They have brains and central nervous systems just like animals do, and their social and emotional needs are hardly any different from ours. Plants in an arboretum slowly go insane because of their unnatural living conditions, and often develop diseases from stress and confinement.

Surely, paying money to an arboretum to photograph flowers is no better ethically than paying money to an institution that confines and breeds animals in non-native climates for profit.

Tsk tsk... (and yes, I'm joking too - although my joke is probably better because it is grounded in reality).
 
I'm replying to you, not to argue but to educate readers.
The reasons are simple:

I really enjoy seeing the animals.

I also enjoy trying to get nice photographs of them.
Some members here seem to be missing the point entirely - visiting zoos is funding for-profit businesses whose business model is based on captivity and breeding of certain species which draw crowds. These species almost always have complex minds and strong emotional needs. Crowd-pullers include big cats, social carnivores, elephants, pandas, primates, raptors, colorful birds, and in case of aquariums, cetaceans and sharks.

Yes, zoos also exhibit reptiles, insects etc. but few people visit zoos for those animals.

So aside from some conservation work, the bulk of species that zoos breed and exhibit are there to attract ignorant / indifferent visitors and not for serious conservation.
Here in the UK unless there is an escapee, we have no chance of seeing leopards, tigers, apes, giraffes, reptiles, stick insects, etc, etc.
And?

Well into the 1950s, Western countries had "human zoos". Would you have argued in their favor: "unless there's an escapee slave, we have no chance of seeing natives from Africa, the Philippines, Native Americans, Aboriginals etc. etc."

350px-African_Girl%2C_1958_Expo.jpeg

I don't like seeing large birds kept in restricted captivity, but other than that I applaud our UK zoos. They do a wonderful job of trying to ensure the animals mental and physical well-being.
This is false.

Take tigers for example, since you mentioned them above. A wild tiger needs a territory of anywhere from 50 sq. km. in high-density habitats like the Sunderban delta, to over 400 sq. km. in the Amur delta. Every day, tigers patrol their territory and cover 25-50 km walking, exploring, marking / interacting with other tigers etc.

They also need around 3 years of intensive education as cubs to learn how to survive in their native environment. A tiger from central India, for example, will probably die if relocated to Sumatra because he would be unfamiliar with the flora, landscape, species and hunting techniques that work best over there. Which is to say, they have a culture and a strong emotional need, dictated by their evolution, to have a stimulating, complex and challenging natural environment. Just like we do.

Now are you telling me that a 2 acre enclosure is enough to meet these complex emotional and mental needs? You have similar needs ... if you were to be kept confined to a house and have meals delivered to you every day for 20 years, with no interaction with other people or animals, will you be contented, or will you slowly lose your mind?

You're an ape, so I find it odd that you think that it's okay to confine a tropical ape to a zoo in the UK for their entire lives so that you can pay a couple of pounds to see them.
Without zoos I fear many species will soon be extinct.
This is largely false. Reintroducing zoo-bred animals to the wild works for species who do not require a lengthy education, such as some crocodilians, and they also work for animals who do not have complex minds, such as most insects.

However for animals which have these needs, being bred in a zoo does nothing for wild populations because THEY CANNOT BE INTRODUCED TO THE WILD. The tigers or apes or elephants who you think the zoo is protecting from extinction can never be released into the wild. Ever. And if those species do go extinct in the wild, breeding programs won't do anything to save the species due to the shallowness of the gene pools. Not to mention, most animals exhibited in zoos DO NOT have pure genetic lineages and have been bred for decades for PR rather than preservation of genetic purity e.g. breeding Siberian tigers with Indian tigers, or breeding freak variants such as white tigers.

So while breeding programs can save some cognitively less complex species from extinction, most species - including the ones you listed above - can only be saved by protecting them in their native, natural habitat.
So the final reason I go to zoos and snap away is because my money will hopefully help protect certain species.
Haha, "hopefully". Zoo visitors do not know if it does (mostly doesn't) but that's what they tell themselves because it's a feel-good narrative. How many would instead give that money to conservation programs in native-range countries if there was "nothing in it for them"? :-)

--
Central India --> Pacific Northwest. Favorite lenses: Olympus 300mm Pro, 8mm Pro. Favorite subjects: leopards, swallows, ospreys.
 
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To continue the train of thought from some of the above posts.

It seems incredibly unnatural to go to a garden or a arboretum and take pictures of flowers. After all, they are not there “naturally“ as they would be in the wild. They were planted there artificially. Probably have also had man-made fertilizer applied to them, and a man-made landscape watering system applied to them. Take no pictures of any man-made lakes, streams, or artificial waterfalls. I mean, what’s the point?

Tsk tsk… 😊 (and yes… I’m joking)

Happy Shooting
There is a lot of difference between a looked after garden and a gibbon in a concrete enclosure as in a post above.
I agree! I was not making an argument regarding the pros and cons of whether we should even have zoos.

I was commenting regarding them not being wildlife, because they are not in the wild, even though the OP went to animals shortly after his post title.

Roses planted in your garden did not arrive there naturally. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have them. But they are there. Enjoy them or not.

A tiger…. Is a tiger. For those that are comfortable visiting a zoo, it is an option. Those that aren’t comfortable with it, don’t visit. Advocate change as you see fit.

The points opposing zoos have been well represented here.

Happy Shooting

--
Dave
 
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Thanks for your impassioned, yet thoughtful reply. I too would have shared your opinion except for a positive experience that I had last year in a primate zoo in Holland, Apenhuel. I was traveling with a film crew that was making a documentary about primate behavior and I was able to sneak some time by myself for photography. I’ve put together these images in a travelogue in my SmugMug web site. Please check it out. Because the pictures were taken in only two locations I didn’t have a travelogue in the usual sense. Instead I put together a travelogue traversing the phylogenetic tree from early primates to late primates as though we were traveling through time rather than place. Of course the early primates like the lemurs have been evolving themselves through time, but they are still a branch of the primate family tree that buds off from the vertebrate tree before the apes do. Anyway, my experience with the zoos in Holland caused me to rethink my opinion of zoos so that I now feel the best of them can be an important public service and contributor to science education. — Joan
 
Question for all wildlife enthusiasts, do you visit zoos for animal photography? Do you mind sharing your experience, tips and off course images

thank you

- Sagar
Sagar -

When I get a new camera or lens that I intend to use for wildlife, I will go to a nearby children's zoo and take photos of the animals and some of the people visitors. It helps me see how sharp the camera/lens is with various settings. It's a relatively controlled environment (compared to being out in nature) and often the animals don't move too much which allows me to play with various camera settings, take multiple shots, and I'm don't feel rushed because I'm concerned that the animal will run/fly/swim away before I get my next shot off.

Besides ... if you have you take along a small child ... it can be even more fun! Zoos have gotten a lot better about treating their animals properly than in the "old days" when they were just put in small cages for viewing, disregarding the animals' need to be in its natural environment. I encourage you to visit zoos that respect the animals they have in in their care. Recently, I visited the San Francisco zoo with my granddaughter (age 11) and was surprised to find that the zoo no longer has elephants. I asked why and I was told the zoo did not have a large enough space (and the associated monetary investment) to create a natural like environment for such large animals. Kudos to the San Francisco zoo!!!

Good luck ...

- Simon
 
I'm replying to you, not to argue but to educate readers.
The reasons are simple:

I really enjoy seeing the animals.

I also enjoy trying to get nice photographs of them.
Some members here seem to be missing the point entirely - visiting zoos is funding for-profit businesses whose business model is based on captivity and breeding of certain species which draw crowds. These species almost always have complex minds and strong emotional needs. Crowd-pullers include big cats, social carnivores, elephants, pandas, primates, raptors, colorful birds, and in case of aquariums, cetaceans and sharks.

Yes, zoos also exhibit reptiles, insects etc. but few people visit zoos for those animals.

So aside from some conservation work, the bulk of species that zoos breed and exhibit are there to attract ignorant / indifferent visitors and not for serious conservation.
Dear Professor, I don't know what country you live in but in North America the major Zoos, Wildlife Parks, whatever they are called are non-profit organizations that are funded by governments, grants and individual donations. No profits at all, even some of the veterinarians volunteer their time at some zoos. Salaries are not great. Employees are extremely dedicated, caring folks who love the animals.

Your line about ignorant/indifferent visitors is elitist and frankly disgusting. Presumably you've never been to a zoo but visitors, unlike the very wealthy "highly educated" who can afford get on gas guzzling planes and fly to the far reaches of the word in search of "real" wildlife, visitors to zoos come from all social strata. and yes, they actually do learn about conservation, especially the bus loads of young children who come with schools. Go to a zoo anywhere, the Bronx, Miami, San Diego and you probably see more social, economic and racial diversity than you see at any public place.
Here in the UK unless there is an escapee, we have no chance of seeing leopards, tigers, apes, giraffes, reptiles, stick insects, etc, etc.
And?

Well into the 1950s, Western countries had "human zoos". Would you have argued in their favor: "unless there's an escapee slave, we have no chance of seeing natives from Africa, the Philippines, Native Americans, Aboriginals etc. etc."
OH, I knew someone would "go there", professor. Please don't equate human beings with other creatures or try to establish compare the morality of "human zoos" or slavery with capturing animals. Do you own an dog? A cat? Maybe you compare carnivorous people with cannibals??
350px-African_Girl%2C_1958_Expo.jpeg

I don't like seeing large birds kept in restricted captivity, but other than that I applaud our UK zoos. They do a wonderful job of trying to ensure the animals mental and physical well-being.
This is false.

Take tigers for example, since you mentioned them above. A wild tiger needs a territory of anywhere from 50 sq. km. in high-density habitats like the Sunderban delta, to over 400 sq. km. in the Amur delta. Every day, tigers patrol their territory and cover 25-50 km walking, exploring, marking / interacting with other tigers etc.

They also need around 3 years of intensive education as cubs to learn how to survive in their native environment. A tiger from central India, for example, will probably die if relocated to Sumatra because he would be unfamiliar with the flora, landscape, species and hunting techniques that work best over there. Which is to say, they have a culture and a strong emotional need, dictated by their evolution, to have a stimulating, complex and challenging natural environment. Just like we do.

Now are you telling me that a 2 acre enclosure is enough to meet these complex emotional and mental needs? You have similar needs ... if you were to be kept confined to a house and have meals delivered to you every day for 20 years, with no interaction with other people or animals, will you be contented, or will you slowly lose your mind?

You're an ape, so I find it odd that you think that it's okay to confine a tropical ape to a zoo in the UK for their entire lives so that you can pay a couple of pounds to see them.
You make it sound like life as an animal in the wild is some easy, joyous existence. Very few animals live to "old age", except maybe apex predators. They die from predation, weather, natural and human caused events. Life expectancy of most captive animals exceeds those in the wild.
Without zoos I fear many species will soon be extinct.
This is largely false. Reintroducing zoo-bred animals to the wild works for species who do not require a lengthy education, such as some crocodilians, and they also work for animals who do not have complex minds, such as most insects.

However for animals which have these needs, being bred in a zoo does nothing for wild populations because THEY CANNOT BE INTRODUCED TO THE WILD. The tigers or apes or elephants who you think the zoo is protecting from extinction can never be released into the wild. Ever. And if those species do go extinct in the wild, breeding programs won't do anything to save the species due to the shallowness of the gene pools. Not to mention, most animals exhibited in zoos DO NOT have pure genetic lineages and have been bred for decades for PR rather than preservation of genetic purity e.g. breeding Siberian tigers with Indian tigers, or breeding freak variants such as white tigers.

So while breeding programs can save some cognitively less complex species from extinction, most species - including the ones you listed above - can only be saved by protecting them in their native, natural habitat.
So the final reason I go to zoos and snap away is because my money will hopefully help protect certain species.
Haha, "hopefully". Zoo visitors do not know if it does (mostly doesn't) but that's what they tell themselves because it's a feel-good narrative. How many would instead give that money to conservation programs in native-range countries if there was "nothing in it for them"? :-)
Again, point missed. People who work in, run, visit zoos are motivated, largely by love of the creatures who inhabit them. Again contrary to your assertion that they are profit making,, they cost society billions of dollars collectively to maintain. You sound as if you equate the veteranarians, scientists, animal care givers and adminstrators with torturous Nazis. The opposite is the case.
 
Anyway, my experience with the zoos in Holland caused me to rethink my opinion of zoos so that I now feel the best of them can be an important public service and contributor to science education. — Joan
Thank you, Joan.

Many zoos have educational programs. In the case of the Living Desert Zoo and Gardens I wrote about in my post, they include on their web site:
  • The Living Desert Zoo and Gardens offers several fun and engaging opportunities to learn about the animals and their ecosystems.
  • From camps and youth programs to speaker series, field trips, and even world travel. The Living Desert Zoo and Gardens can teach you a thing or two. Start Learning. Discover our Animals and gardens. Start Exploring.
- Richard

--
http://www.rsjphoto.net/
 
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Some members here seem to be missing the point entirely - visiting zoos is funding for-profit businesses whose business model is based on captivity and breeding of certain species which draw crowds.
"For profit" or "non-profit" - It's not always clear. This web site discusses how you can check.


One way is to look at the Zoo's web site. The Living Desert Zoo and Gardens that I wrote about in my post has:
  • The Living Desert Zoo and Gardens is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization. Please view our financial reports.
 
Excellent argument, thank you.

We have the Yorkshire Wildlife Park just 45 minutes drive away, a huge site that's expanded rapidly in the last few years. Most, if not all, of their lions are rescues from zoos where they were caged. If you're ever in the UK it's worth a visit.
 
Now that I have young grandchildren, it turns out I do visit the zoo with my daughter, her husband, and their kids. They love the zoo. Sometimes I take pictures that of animals, or pictures that include animals. It really depends on the zoo. Animal in a cage is not a good subject. But the San Diego Zoo's safari park is more amenable to photographing animals in a nearly natural setting.




Sometimes, wildlife just arrives unexpectedly on my deck railing



--
js
 

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I rarely visit anyplace that has a lot of people, especially children.

As for zoos, if I visit one I will bring a camera in case something escapes or a human does something stupid (for evidence).

I would never visit a zoo as practice for photographing anything. I am familiar with camera shops that have gear demos at zoos, but have never attended. Their goal isn't to improve your skills, it is to make money. I think Olympus Test and Wow program (free gear rental) is better because you can shoot at your leisure and aren't confined to a zoo.

I really wonder about those who claim photographing a confined subject helps them be better photographers. Sure, it's more interesting than shooting brick walls but brick walls have consistency. If you want to improve your wildlife photography skills, learn about your subjects. A lot. Practice by shooting sports. At least a ballfield is bigger than a zoo enclosure.

As for the merits of zoos: they are a business. Being a nonprofit doesn't mean an organization benefits society; it means the government has bestowed tax advantages.
 
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I'm replying to you, not to argue but to educate readers.
The reasons are simple:

I really enjoy seeing the animals.

I also enjoy trying to get nice photographs of them.
Some members here seem to be missing the point entirely - visiting zoos is funding for-profit businesses whose business model is based on captivity and breeding of certain species which draw crowds. These species almost always have complex minds and strong emotional needs. Crowd-pullers include big cats, social carnivores, elephants, pandas, primates, raptors, colorful birds, and in case of aquariums, cetaceans and sharks.

Yes, zoos also exhibit reptiles, insects etc. but few people visit zoos for those animals.

So aside from some conservation work, the bulk of species that zoos breed and exhibit are there to attract ignorant / indifferent visitors and not for serious conservation.
Here in the UK unless there is an escapee, we have no chance of seeing leopards, tigers, apes, giraffes, reptiles, stick insects, etc, etc.
And?

Well into the 1950s, Western countries had "human zoos". Would you have argued in their favor: "unless there's an escapee slave, we have no chance of seeing natives from Africa, the Philippines, Native Americans, Aboriginals etc. etc."

350px-African_Girl%2C_1958_Expo.jpeg

I don't like seeing large birds kept in restricted captivity, but other than that I applaud our UK zoos. They do a wonderful job of trying to ensure the animals mental and physical well-being.
This is false.

Take tigers for example, since you mentioned them above. A wild tiger needs a territory of anywhere from 50 sq. km. in high-density habitats like the Sunderban delta, to over 400 sq. km. in the Amur delta. Every day, tigers patrol their territory and cover 25-50 km walking, exploring, marking / interacting with other tigers etc.

They also need around 3 years of intensive education as cubs to learn how to survive in their native environment. A tiger from central India, for example, will probably die if relocated to Sumatra because he would be unfamiliar with the flora, landscape, species and hunting techniques that work best over there. Which is to say, they have a culture and a strong emotional need, dictated by their evolution, to have a stimulating, complex and challenging natural environment. Just like we do.

Now are you telling me that a 2 acre enclosure is enough to meet these complex emotional and mental needs? You have similar needs ... if you were to be kept confined to a house and have meals delivered to you every day for 20 years, with no interaction with other people or animals, will you be contented, or will you slowly lose your mind?

You're an ape, so I find it odd that you think that it's okay to confine a tropical ape to a zoo in the UK for their entire lives so that you can pay a couple of pounds to see them.
Without zoos I fear many species will soon be extinct.
This is largely false. Reintroducing zoo-bred animals to the wild works for species who do not require a lengthy education, such as some crocodilians, and they also work for animals who do not have complex minds, such as most insects.

However for animals which have these needs, being bred in a zoo does nothing for wild populations because THEY CANNOT BE INTRODUCED TO THE WILD. The tigers or apes or elephants who you think the zoo is protecting from extinction can never be released into the wild. Ever. And if those species do go extinct in the wild, breeding programs won't do anything to save the species due to the shallowness of the gene pools. Not to mention, most animals exhibited in zoos DO NOT have pure genetic lineages and have been bred for decades for PR rather than preservation of genetic purity e.g. breeding Siberian tigers with Indian tigers, or breeding freak variants such as white tigers.

So while breeding programs can save some cognitively less complex species from extinction, most species - including the ones you listed above - can only be saved by protecting them in their native, natural habitat.
So the final reason I go to zoos and snap away is because my money will hopefully help protect certain species.
Haha, "hopefully". Zoo visitors do not know if it does (mostly doesn't) but that's what they tell themselves because it's a feel-good narrative. How many would instead give that money to conservation programs in native-range countries if there was "nothing in it for them"? :-)

--
Central India --> Pacific Northwest. Favorite lenses: Olympus 300mm Pro, 8mm Pro. Favorite subjects: leopards, swallows, ospreys.
Thank you very much for your insight on some of the issues and correcting my thinking.

I think one importance of zoo's that you may have not considered is that people will only strive to protect things they care about. Zoo's introduce these animals to people. People are anthropomorphic and feel a connection, that connection makes them care.

Most of the world's population will not be going on safari's. And why should they care about creatures far away?

If as you suggest money to help would be more helpful if sent direct to a conservation project, then I suggest that zoo's probably do a very good job of promoting a connection between those who would give.

There are many adverts on TV that show apparently suffering animals and asking for money. Unfortunately these put me off. Most charities generate riches for those that run them.

Sadly most people seem unaware that all of nature is very interconnected. But probably far more important than big cats and apes are insects and plankton, without which are own survival is very much at risk.

But trying to get people - and possibly especially those that live solely in cities, - to care about 'creepy crawlies' is definitely a tough ask.

I understand the problems regarding trying to introduce animals back into the wild. My wife has a hedgehog rescue hospital at the bottom of our garden. And even for these little creatures it's quite a complex task. PS. We are self funded

Once again, thanks for your insight.



--
Adrian
 
My wife has a hedgehog rescue hospital at the bottom of our garden. And even for these little creatures it's quite a complex task. PS. We are self funded
Well done Mrs Harris !

I love stores of wildlife rescue and community animal care

Peter
 
No because zoos aren't wildlife
and the major photographic competitions like "Wildlife Photographer of the Year" don't consider them wildlife either.

IMHO, from a photographic viewpoint, zoo animals are not "wildlife". If you want to put a zoo image into a major competition, it has to go into a general category, not Wildlife.

However, from the point of view of this thread, whether or not zoo animals are "wildlife" isn't relevant.
OK... let's call it Zoolife photography of un-domesticated captive wild animals.
 
My wife has a hedgehog rescue hospital at the bottom of our garden. And even for these little creatures it's quite a complex task. PS. We are self funded
Well done Mrs Harris !

I love stores of wildlife rescue and community animal care

Peter
So do I. Our community has a "Save-a-pet" group that cares for injured animals. Often non-domesticated, such as Opossums, Raccoons.

The Living Desert I wrote about has a rehabilitation center for animals injured in the wild.

- Richard
 
I'm replying to you, not to argue but to educate readers.
The reasons are simple:

I really enjoy seeing the animals.

I also enjoy trying to get nice photographs of them.
Some members here seem to be missing the point entirely - visiting zoos is funding for-profit businesses whose business model is based on captivity and breeding of certain species which draw crowds. These species almost always have complex minds and strong emotional needs. Crowd-pullers include big cats, social carnivores, elephants, pandas, primates, raptors, colorful birds, and in case of aquariums, cetaceans and sharks.

Yes, zoos also exhibit reptiles, insects etc. but few people visit zoos for those animals.

So aside from some conservation work, the bulk of species that zoos breed and exhibit are there to attract ignorant / indifferent visitors and not for serious conservation.
Here in the UK unless there is an escapee, we have no chance of seeing leopards, tigers, apes, giraffes, reptiles, stick insects, etc, etc.
And?

Well into the 1950s, Western countries had "human zoos". Would you have argued in their favor: "unless there's an escapee slave, we have no chance of seeing natives from Africa, the Philippines, Native Americans, Aboriginals etc. etc."

350px-African_Girl%2C_1958_Expo.jpeg

I don't like seeing large birds kept in restricted captivity, but other than that I applaud our UK zoos. They do a wonderful job of trying to ensure the animals mental and physical well-being.
This is false.

Take tigers for example, since you mentioned them above. A wild tiger needs a territory of anywhere from 50 sq. km. in high-density habitats like the Sunderban delta, to over 400 sq. km. in the Amur delta. Every day, tigers patrol their territory and cover 25-50 km walking, exploring, marking / interacting with other tigers etc.

They also need around 3 years of intensive education as cubs to learn how to survive in their native environment. A tiger from central India, for example, will probably die if relocated to Sumatra because he would be unfamiliar with the flora, landscape, species and hunting techniques that work best over there. Which is to say, they have a culture and a strong emotional need, dictated by their evolution, to have a stimulating, complex and challenging natural environment. Just like we do.

Now are you telling me that a 2 acre enclosure is enough to meet these complex emotional and mental needs? You have similar needs ... if you were to be kept confined to a house and have meals delivered to you every day for 20 years, with no interaction with other people or animals, will you be contented, or will you slowly lose your mind?

You're an ape, so I find it odd that you think that it's okay to confine a tropical ape to a zoo in the UK for their entire lives so that you can pay a couple of pounds to see them.
Without zoos I fear many species will soon be extinct.
This is largely false. Reintroducing zoo-bred animals to the wild works for species who do not require a lengthy education, such as some crocodilians, and they also work for animals who do not have complex minds, such as most insects.

However for animals which have these needs, being bred in a zoo does nothing for wild populations because THEY CANNOT BE INTRODUCED TO THE WILD. The tigers or apes or elephants who you think the zoo is protecting from extinction can never be released into the wild. Ever. And if those species do go extinct in the wild, breeding programs won't do anything to save the species due to the shallowness of the gene pools. Not to mention, most animals exhibited in zoos DO NOT have pure genetic lineages and have been bred for decades for PR rather than preservation of genetic purity e.g. breeding Siberian tigers with Indian tigers, or breeding freak variants such as white tigers.

So while breeding programs can save some cognitively less complex species from extinction, most species - including the ones you listed above - can only be saved by protecting them in their native, natural habitat.
So the final reason I go to zoos and snap away is because my money will hopefully help protect certain species.
Haha, "hopefully". Zoo visitors do not know if it does (mostly doesn't) but that's what they tell themselves because it's a feel-good narrative. How many would instead give that money to conservation programs in native-range countries if there was "nothing in it for them"? :-)
Thank you very much for your insight on some of the issues and correcting my thinking.

I think one importance of zoo's that you may have not considered is that people will only strive to protect things they care about. Zoo's introduce these animals to people. People are anthropomorphic and feel a connection, that connection makes them care.

Most of the world's population will not be going on safari's. And why should they care about creatures far away?

If as you suggest money to help would be more helpful if sent direct to a conservation project, then I suggest that zoo's probably do a very good job of promoting a connection between those who would give.

There are many adverts on TV that show apparently suffering animals and asking for money. Unfortunately these put me off. Most charities generate riches for those that run them.

Sadly most people seem unaware that all of nature is very interconnected. But probably far more important than big cats and apes are insects and plankton, without which are own survival is very much at risk.

But trying to get people - and possibly especially those that live solely in cities, - to care about 'creepy crawlies' is definitely a tough ask.

I understand the problems regarding trying to introduce animals back into the wild. My wife has a hedgehog rescue hospital at the bottom of our garden. And even for these little creatures it's quite a complex task. PS. We are self funded

Once again, thanks for your insight.
Many people fail to realize that their actions affect their home planet.

Consider that climate change is reducing the amount of the planet in which things can live, forcing people and wildlife into closer proximity.

That is going to increase the likelihood of pandemics caused by zoonotic diseases (disease that cross from animals to humans).
 
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Yes, our local Zoo, for which we have Annual passes. But, weather, enclosures and people often make photography difficult. The aim is to try and take a shot that is not obviously in a Zoo, necessary if an image is to be entered into a photo club competition. Recently bought an oversized rubber hood, to reduce/ eliminate reflections, for use with a wide lens up close to glass.

Not sure I entirely agree with the zoos. Animals often look sad. No doubt, some zoos are better than others and there might be a genuine need for breeding programmes for species threatened with extinction. In the UK, at least, many Zoos struggle to survive financially. The current rises in energy and food costs could well see Zoos closing, especially with reduced footfall because families can't afford the high admission costs.

The multiple, fantastic documentaries in high definition and 4K, of real wildlife, made by professional photographers/cinema-photograpers should reduce the need for Zoos.

--
Stuart
Member of LSAPS - Lytham St Annes Photographic Society
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My original reply to lescrane was deleted (archived link below). In the interest of forum decorum and staying on topic, I will ignore the ad hominem remarks by lescrane and reply to the zoo-specific comments (some more facts added for clarity):
Dear Professor, I don't know what country you live in but in North America the major Zoos, Wildlife Parks, whatever they are called are non-profit organizations
Being classified as non-profit organizations allows zoos to skirt international laws on animal trade, including the Endangered Species Act. It also allows them to run annual fundraiser events which are a significant source of revenue for them.

Breeding programs are a big part of what draws visitors - people want to see cute animals. If another zoo wants a "star attraction" animal, being non-profits allows them to run a barter system and avoid a ton of regulations. It is no coincidence that American zoos switched to this non-profit/barter system in the 1970s, after the ESA was passed in 1973. As was pointed out elsewhere, this also carries many tax-related benefits.

There are exceptions of course. To exhibit a breeding pair of giant pandas, a zoo has to pay China $1,000,000 per year. That's PER YEAR. A panda cub costs $600,000 per cub, per year. DC zoo spends around $2.5 million per year on their panda exhibit. This is NOT conservation - it is a business investment.

A genuine non-profit org channels their revenues into their cause. A conservation nonprofit such as Ocean Conservancy, for instance, largely relies on public donations and channels their funds into education, habitat restoration etc. They do not run a theme park and charge $50 for admission.
that are funded by governments, grants and individual donations. No profits at all,
How odd - you did not mention ticket and merchandise sales which form the bulk of zoo revenues. AZA accredited zoos earned over $24 billion in 2018, mostly from ticket sales. :-) https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission
even some of the veterinarians volunteer their time at some zoos. Salaries are not great. Employees are extremely dedicated, caring folks who love the animals.
While that may be true, it does not have a bearing on ethics and usefulness of zoos. Sea World trainers are also passionate about their work but it is still a terrible life for the orcas themselves.

Like many corporations, zoos pay a pittance to staff while upper management are paid exorbitant salaries. In the United States it is to the tune of $200,000 - $300,000 per year. A few years ago, the COO of Philadelphia zoo received almost half a million dollars as his retirement package. And that's just what made the news.
Your line about ignorant/indifferent visitors is elitist and frankly disgusting. Presumably you've never been to a zoo but visitors, unlike the very wealthy "highly educated" who can afford get on gas guzzling planes and fly to the far reaches of the word in search of "real" wildlife, visitors to zoos come from all social strata. and yes, they actually do learn about conservation, especially the bus loads of young children who come with schools. Go to a zoo anywhere, the Bronx, Miami, San Diego and you probably see more social, economic and racial diversity than you see at any public place.

OH, I knew someone would "go there", professor. Please don't equate human beings with other creatures or try to establish compare the morality of "human zoos" or slavery with capturing animals. Do you own an dog? A cat? Maybe you compare carnivorous people with cannibals??
Ignored for sake of forum decorum. My reply to these ad hominem attacks is in the archived reply here: https://archive.ph/g0cIn
You make it sound like life as an animal in the wild is some easy, joyous existence. Very few animals live to "old age", except maybe apex predators.
First off, the purpose of every species' existence, if there were one, isn't to be joyful, but to pass on their genes. That and the role they perform in maintaining the ecosystem's ability to sustain biodiversity.

So from an ethical standpoint, life expectancy is beside the point. However, captive animals DO NOT have a higher life expectancy than wild individuals (on average). More on this below ...

And you are also incorrect about so-called "apex predators" living to old age. Predators are usually territorial and need to defend these from competitors. Most herbivores are not territorial, and conflict is usually limited to the breeding season and rarely causes serious injuries. For most carnivores, the vast majority of hunting attempts also end in failure. Where human hunting does not artificially impact lifespans, it isn't uncommon for herbivores to outlive their predators (depending on species).

The average lion's lifespan is 8-10 years (male), 12-15 years (female). This is ignoring mortality among cubs, which would bring the average even lower. The average antelope lives between 15-20 years depending on species and African buffalo live for 20-25 years.
They die from predation, weather, natural and human caused events. Life expectancy of most captive animals exceeds those in the wild.
Zoo animals lack genetic robustness and are sometimes inbred. Zoochosis (explained below) shortens their lifespans.

As does unnatural lighting, which is engineered to change their sleep patterns so that they are active during business hours. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35084058/

They also lack a variety in diet, lack stimulus, lack the space to range and social interaction (including healthy conflict) with other animals.

Here is one study on elephants: https://www.science.org/content/article/do-zoos-shorten-elephant-life-spans

"African zoo elephants had life spans of about 17 years, whereas those in Amboseli lived 56 years ... Death rates for infant Asian elephants were especially high in zoos."

There are numerous other studies about other species.

Zoochosis is near-universal among captive animals. Zoochosis describes repetitive behaviors that captive animals display because of the emotional stress of life in unnatural conditions. https://www.idausa.org/campaign/elephants/what-is-zoochosis/

Having grown up in India, I can tell at a glance if a tiger in a photo is wild or captive. Tigers in zoos overeat and have a certain lack of vitality in their demeanor. Overeating is a repetitive behavior - zoochosis.

You'll often find captive elephants swaying and twirling their trunks. This is zoochosis.

Wolves pacing in their enclosures? Zoochosis.

Orcas swimming in circles till their fins collapse? Zoochosis.

Monkeys flinging poo at visitors? Yes, wild monkeys do not do that. It's zoochosis.

Animals in captivity also suffer from serious dental issues caused by zoochosis, diet and inbreeding. There are many studies on this which I won't go into here, but you can look into that yourself if you wish to.
Again, point missed. People who work in, run, visit zoos are motivated, largely by love of the creatures who inhabit them. Again contrary to your assertion that they are profit making,, they cost society billions of dollars collectively to maintain. You sound as if you equate the veteranarians, scientists, animal care givers and adminstrators with torturous Nazis. The opposite is the case.
More ad hominem.

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Central India --> Pacific Northwest. Favorite lenses: Olympus 300mm Pro, 8mm Pro. Favorite subjects: leopards, swallows, ospreys.
 
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I'm replying to you, not to argue but to educate readers.
The reasons are simple:

I really enjoy seeing the animals.

I also enjoy trying to get nice photographs of them.
Some members here seem to be missing the point entirely - visiting zoos is funding for-profit businesses whose business model is based on captivity and breeding of certain species which draw crowds. These species almost always have complex minds and strong emotional needs. Crowd-pullers include big cats, social carnivores, elephants, pandas, primates, raptors, colorful birds, and in case of aquariums, cetaceans and sharks.

Yes, zoos also exhibit reptiles, insects etc. but few people visit zoos for those animals.

So aside from some conservation work, the bulk of species that zoos breed and exhibit are there to attract ignorant / indifferent visitors and not for serious conservation.
Here in the UK unless there is an escapee, we have no chance of seeing leopards, tigers, apes, giraffes, reptiles, stick insects, etc, etc.
And?

Well into the 1950s, Western countries had "human zoos". Would you have argued in their favor: "unless there's an escapee slave, we have no chance of seeing natives from Africa, the Philippines, Native Americans, Aboriginals etc. etc."

350px-African_Girl%2C_1958_Expo.jpeg

I don't like seeing large birds kept in restricted captivity, but other than that I applaud our UK zoos. They do a wonderful job of trying to ensure the animals mental and physical well-being.
This is false.

Take tigers for example, since you mentioned them above. A wild tiger needs a territory of anywhere from 50 sq. km. in high-density habitats like the Sunderban delta, to over 400 sq. km. in the Amur delta. Every day, tigers patrol their territory and cover 25-50 km walking, exploring, marking / interacting with other tigers etc.

They also need around 3 years of intensive education as cubs to learn how to survive in their native environment. A tiger from central India, for example, will probably die if relocated to Sumatra because he would be unfamiliar with the flora, landscape, species and hunting techniques that work best over there. Which is to say, they have a culture and a strong emotional need, dictated by their evolution, to have a stimulating, complex and challenging natural environment. Just like we do.

Now are you telling me that a 2 acre enclosure is enough to meet these complex emotional and mental needs? You have similar needs ... if you were to be kept confined to a house and have meals delivered to you every day for 20 years, with no interaction with other people or animals, will you be contented, or will you slowly lose your mind?

You're an ape, so I find it odd that you think that it's okay to confine a tropical ape to a zoo in the UK for their entire lives so that you can pay a couple of pounds to see them.
Without zoos I fear many species will soon be extinct.
This is largely false. Reintroducing zoo-bred animals to the wild works for species who do not require a lengthy education, such as some crocodilians, and they also work for animals who do not have complex minds, such as most insects.

However for animals which have these needs, being bred in a zoo does nothing for wild populations because THEY CANNOT BE INTRODUCED TO THE WILD. The tigers or apes or elephants who you think the zoo is protecting from extinction can never be released into the wild. Ever. And if those species do go extinct in the wild, breeding programs won't do anything to save the species due to the shallowness of the gene pools. Not to mention, most animals exhibited in zoos DO NOT have pure genetic lineages and have been bred for decades for PR rather than preservation of genetic purity e.g. breeding Siberian tigers with Indian tigers, or breeding freak variants such as white tigers.

So while breeding programs can save some cognitively less complex species from extinction, most species - including the ones you listed above - can only be saved by protecting them in their native, natural habitat.
So the final reason I go to zoos and snap away is because my money will hopefully help protect certain species.
Haha, "hopefully". Zoo visitors do not know if it does (mostly doesn't) but that's what they tell themselves because it's a feel-good narrative. How many would instead give that money to conservation programs in native-range countries if there was "nothing in it for them"? :-)
Thank you very much for your insight on some of the issues and correcting my thinking.

I think one importance of zoo's that you may have not considered is that people will only strive to protect things they care about. Zoo's introduce these animals to people. People are anthropomorphic and feel a connection, that connection makes them care.

Most of the world's population will not be going on safari's. And why should they care about creatures far away?

If as you suggest money to help would be more helpful if sent direct to a conservation project, then I suggest that zoo's probably do a very good job of promoting a connection between those who would give.

There are many adverts on TV that show apparently suffering animals and asking for money. Unfortunately these put me off. Most charities generate riches for those that run them.

Sadly most people seem unaware that all of nature is very interconnected. But probably far more important than big cats and apes are insects and plankton, without which are own survival is very much at risk.

But trying to get people - and possibly especially those that live solely in cities, - to care about 'creepy crawlies' is definitely a tough ask.

I understand the problems regarding trying to introduce animals back into the wild. My wife has a hedgehog rescue hospital at the bottom of our garden. And even for these little creatures it's quite a complex task. PS. We are self funded

Once again, thanks for your insight.
Thank you for your gracious response and for not taking this personally. I appreciate your sharing some valid points with me. :-)

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Central India --> Pacific Northwest. Favorite lenses: Olympus 300mm Pro, 8mm Pro. Favorite subjects: leopards, swallows, ospreys.
 
There are exceptions of course. To exhibit a breeding pair of giant pandas, a zoo has to pay China $1,000,000 per year. That's PER YEAR. A panda cub costs $600,000 per cub, per year. DC zoo spends around $2.5 million per year on their panda exhibit. This is NOT conservation - it is a business investment.
Always?
And you are also incorrect about so-called "apex predators" living to old age. Predators are usually territorial and need to defend these from competitors. Most herbivores are not territorial, and conflict is usually limited to the breeding season and rarely causes serious injuries. For most carnivores, the vast majority of hunting attempts also end in failure. Where human hunting does not artificially impact lifespans, it isn't uncommon for herbivores to outlive their predators (depending on species).

The average lion's lifespan is 8-10 years (male), 12-15 years (female). This is ignoring mortality among cubs, which would bring the average even lower. The average antelope lives between 15-20 years depending on species and African buffalo live for 20-25 years.
My understanding was that 'captive' animals live to greater ages than they would in the wild. I'm happy to be put right (I also realise a quality against quantity argument might be valid)
They die from predation, weather, natural and human caused events. Life expectancy of most captive animals exceeds those in the wild.
Zoo animals lack genetic robustness and are sometimes inbred. Zoochosis (explained below) shortens their lifespans.
That sounds like an argument for freezing semen and eggs of wild animals so that the genetic robustness can be preserved. I'm not quite sure from these posts if you are pro or anti allowing speciest to go extinct (I think both view are valid).
 

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