What's wrong with my camera?

Hi,

I've just received my first roll of Kodacolor 200 shot with my Leica iiif. I used two lenses, the Voigtlander Snapshot 25mm and the Jupiter-12 35mm. I got the iiif serviced last year by someone who came recommended, albeit in SE Asia. He said the camera was already in good nick before he serviced it and it didn't need a curtain change. The film had not expired.

The first photos with the Voigt started off well.





Since these are on the dark side nothing was apparent. Then I started to notice something on the lighter images.





You'll probably notice it most on that last image: horizontal lines.

Then I swapped lenses and I realise that this probably wasn't a clever thing to do. I'm so used to swapping lenses on digital it hadn't occurred to me that maybe this isn't such a good idea on a very old film camera.

That said, the first shot after swapping was half decent.



...but of course there are so many shadows those lines aren't apparent. Unfortunately every shot after that the lines got really bad.



They are most apparent in the sky in the above shot. I thought perhaps standing side on to the sun and not using a hood contributed to some flare, hence the washed out look, but I got this even with the sun behind me...



Not all were washed out, but the lines remained.



But by the time I got to my last frame it had all gone horribly wrong. Again, sun directly behind me...



Regarding the lines, I'm assuming either the advance mechanism is too tight (stretching?) or something like the curtain or back is applying too much pressure. Does anyone recognise this symptom?

What about this light issue? Why does it look washed out on only half the images? Would changing the lens mid-roll be the cause? This doesn't seem logical as the frame before and after the change would be the most affected. The washing out happened towards the last ten exposures. Of course my copy of the Jupiter-12 could be an issue but I can't work out why the shots taken with it are inconsistent.

Maybe the two different issues are caused by the same fault, or maybe there's a problem with both camera and lens. Or maybe I loaded the film badly as it took three attempts over half an hour! I used the film trim tool so I was pretty confident it was loaded correctly by the end and the film appeared to be winding on normally.

I could run another roll through the camera to see if it was just a rogue roll, but I'm leaving the UK today to return to Indonesia, where getting film processed is not easy. Not impossible but not fast.

Any feedback appreciated, thanks.

It could also be caused during the scanning process especially if there is a lot of correction being applied. Do you have the negatives? If so, then look whether they are very dark or very light (even for the scanned images that look OK) which would show that your exposure is way off in general. (It is better to look at the negative rather than the scanned images because the exposure may have been partly compensated for by the scanning software.)

Alan

Alan GT said:

It could also be caused during the scanning process especially if there is a lot of correction being applied. Do you have the negatives? If so, then look whether they are very dark or very light (even for the scanned images that look OK) which would show that your exposure is way off in general. (It is better to look at the negative rather than the scanned images because the exposure may have been partly compensated for by the scanning software.)

Alan

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Hi Alan, thanks for your thoughts. I don't have the negatives yet as they ship them out after the scanning process. Unfortunately I won't get hold of them now for another year. I guess I could go back to the developers and ask them their thoughts.

As Alan said, you need to look at the negatives. The problem could be in the processing of the film and that is likely to be much more apparent by looking at the negatives. Quite often the problems that people complain about in this forum are due to processing faults.

How did you meter the shots? Manually with sunny 16 rule?

Alan

Alan GT said:

How did you meter the shots? Manually with sunny 16 rule?

Alan

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Sunny 16

Perhaps I'll try another roll with the light-meter.

I'll reply in more detail later, but here's the short answer: These look like scanning issues. I'd ask three lab to re-scan if they still have the negs.

There are other possibilities, but I don't think the camera is the problem. I'll get into more details later.

Bigger issue: Those shots you say look washed out are actually underexposed. Remember, sunny 16 -- the 16 part -- only works for subjects in diredt sunlight. For objects in shadow or backlit, you need to increase exposure by a couple of stops. If it's an Overcast 8 day, you have more flexibility.

Aaron

Also, check the film gate area and the lip of any film canister. Particles of grit can cause scratches in the film emulsion.

Good luck.

Without knowing any more about these samples, this looks like a scanning issue. Personally I don’t see any way this would be caused by the camera or lens.

Those dark lines are not caused by the camera or the film.

They look to me to be the same lines in the same place.

The underexposed shots are a different problem.

The lines could be a scanner problem but they are usualy thinner than that . Almost looks like the lines we used to get on prints when the rollers on the printer were dirty but I can't see how it would apply here.

As others have said, you really need to see the negatives to diagnose the problem.

Assuming that the issue is visible on the negs, this looks a lot like a shutter issue to me (is. where the shutter isn’t travelling cleanly across the frame due to gummed up lubricants and/or dodgy timing).

The fact that it isn’t present on all frames supports this - shutter issues like this are generally only visible at faster speeds.

Regarding changing the lens, don’t stress it. Lenses are designed to be changed.

tassienick said:

As others have said, you really need to see the negatives to diagnose the problem.

Assuming that the issue is visible on the negs, this looks a lot like a shutter issue to me (is. where the shutter isn’t travelling cleanly across the frame due to gummed up lubricants and/or dodgy timing).

The fact that it isn’t present on all frames supports this - shutter issues like this are generally only visible at faster speeds.

Regarding changing the lens, don’t stress it. Lenses are designed to be changed.

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I don't see how a faulty shutter could cause multiple lines like that particularly with an horizontal travelling shutter like the one the OP has.

Okay, so. Welcome!

demonboy said:

Then I swapped lenses and I realise that this probably wasn't a clever thing to do. I'm so used to swapping lenses on digital it hadn't occurred to me that maybe this isn't such a good idea on a very old film camera.

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On the contrary -- it's actually a bit easier with film. When you change the lens on a digital camera, you are exposing the sensor to the elements. Not so on a film camera, where the film chamber has to remain light-tight. Your film is kept in the dark behind the Leica's focal plane shutter. I can't envision a scenario where a simple lens change would affect your photos in this (or any) way.

Change away -- that's why they make cameras with interchangeable lenses!

demonboy said:

Regarding the lines, I'm assuming either the advance mechanism is too tight (stretching?) or something like the curtain or back is applying too much pressure. Does anyone recognise this symptom?

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I don't think you can stretch film. I've had film jam and what usually happens is that the sprocket holes break from the gear that moves them.

The film back is unlikely to cause problems; remember there are metal guides on the other side that work with the back to align the film just-so. The shutter curtain is ahead of these and shoudn't touch the film. If the film somehow managed to be too far forward (or back), the images would be out of focus.

One possible cause is a goober in the film canister's felt light trap scratching the film -- but a scratch will usually show as a thin, dark line. These lines are too wide, and it's rare to get so many.

Looking at the lines, I see two likely causes. One, a problem with the processing machinery that streaked something on the film. Scanning problems are also possible, though I've not seen damage quite like that before.

Bottom line, as we said earlier: The negatives will have the answer. An iPhone photo of the whole negative (sprockets, edge writing and all), preferably on a bright surface (your computer screen with a white background will do).

If we see corresponding steaks on the negative, we know it's a camera or processing issue, and the nature of the streaks might clue us in. Clean negs? Something went wrong in scanning.

The only way to test *for sure* that it is your camera is to run another roll of film. The fact that the damage only shows on some images is curious, though it does show on the more underexposed photos, which are treated differently than properly-exposed negatives. To wit:

demonboy said:

What about this light issue? Why does it look washed out on only half the images?

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As mentioned earlier, because those images are underexposed. The scanner has to make its own exposure; it tries to bring the lightness up or down to give a uniform image. If the negatives are underexposed (thin; they'll look transparent compared to properly-exposed shots) the scanner has to adjust the exposure accordingly and you're likely to see more grain... akin to noise in digital (kind of).

Aaron

FrancoD said:

tassienick said:

As others have said, you really need to see the negatives to diagnose the problem.

Assuming that the issue is visible on the negs, this looks a lot like a shutter issue to me (is. where the shutter isn’t travelling cleanly across the frame due to gummed up lubricants and/or dodgy timing).

The fact that it isn’t present on all frames supports this - shutter issues like this are generally only visible at faster speeds.

Regarding changing the lens, don’t stress it. Lenses are designed to be changed.

Click to expand...

I don't see how a faulty shutter could cause multiple lines like that particularly with an horizontal travelling shutter like the one the OP has.

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Combination of frayed shutter curtains (hence the lines) and shutter capping (hence the slight overlap).

The horizontally travelling shutter is why the lines are horizontal.

This is a relatively common issue with Leica III models, likely due to the age of the original shutter curtains. It’s also identical to an issue I had with my IIIc.

Thank you everyone for your replies. The best I can do is get back to the developers and hope they haven't dispatched the negs.

Oops, sorry, I missed the additional posts. It's interesting that one of you had a similar issue with your Barnack. Did your issue result in similar looking horizontal lines? Mechanical fault has not been written off...

I've now left the UK and will not be returning for sometime. Meanwhile the negs will be sent to my absent UK address, so inspecting them in the short term won't happen.

I have emailed the developer to see if I can catch them before they return the negs, and I've also asked them for their thoughts. I've used these guys previously and their output is normally very good.

Next best thing is to run another roll through, this time using a light-meter instead of sunny 16, and get it developed and scanned in Jakarta.

Thanks once again for the useful replies.

demonboy said:

Oops, sorry, I missed the additional posts. It's interesting that one of you had a similar issue with your Barnack. Did your issue result in similar looking horizontal lines? Mechanical fault has not been written off...

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This is what mine looked like (sorry it was a III not a IIIc).

demonboy said:

Next best thing is to run another roll through, this time using a light-meter instead of sunny 16, and get it developed and scanned in Jakarta.

Thanks once again for the useful replies.

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Definitely looks similar to the OP's problem. Was it the edge of the shutter curtain that was frayed (so that the slit that moves across the film is a thin rectangle with jagged vertical sides)?

Alan

Alan GT said:

Definitely looks similar to the OP's problem. Was it the edge of the shutter curtain that was frayed (so that the slit that moves across the film is a thin rectangle with jagged vertical sides)?

Alan

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Yes, and the shutter was also capping, so the slit would overlap and close part way across the negative.

tassienick said:

Yes, and the shutter was also capping, so the slit would overlap and close part way across the negative.

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So I guess the OP should first look at the shutter curtain edges with the back of camera open and lens off as they slowly wind the camera. Other than getting any problem fixed then the other option would presumably be to try ISO100 negative film instead and slower shutter speeds with the narrowest feasible aperture on lens and possibly erring on slight over exposure.

Alan