4K monitor (BenQ) and scaling with MBP

Hi,

I just replaced a 10 year old MBP and would like to upgrade my monitor as well. However, I'm confused on the monitor scaling issue with Macs. I understand that either the text is very small at highest resolution or one can lower the resolution for text but then you are not using the full features of the monitor that you paid for. I don't know if I have this right or not. One question I have is if I go for the Apple studio display, why would the text not be even smaller (5K) than on a 4k display?

I'm leaning towards trying the BenQ PD2725U, but I must purchase any monitor sight unseen. The whole stand issue with the studio display really irks me and I think the BenQ should be an acceptable alternative. It would be great to hear from those that use 4K monitors and particularly BenQ with a MBP to get their take. Is the whole scaling at 4K issue overblown or something I should consider? I think in all other respects I would be very happy with the BenQ. Now, if the studio display came with a stand similar to BenQs, at the $1500 price point, I would likely just go that direction.

The majority of my use is for amateur photography and general computing.

Thanks for any input or advice!

MacOS allows HiDPI scaling with 4k UHD monitors. I use the looks like 3k option on my 32".

If it is a smaller monitor the looks like 2.5k option might be better. All the default scaling options send a 4k signal to the monitor.

There is some UI aliasing if you use the unscaled option, but text is ok. MacOS has not had great text rendering for awhile. Apple expects everyone to use Retinal displays. For reference the old 4k iMac was only 20".

fishguy said:

Hi,

I just replaced a 10 year old MBP and would like to upgrade my monitor as well. However, I'm confused on the monitor scaling issue with Macs. I understand that either the text is very small at highest resolution or one can lower the resolution for text but then you are not using the full features of the monitor that you paid for. I don't know if I have this right or not.

Click to expand...

I believe that Retina modes work by letting applications draw onto an internal canvas that has twice as many pixels (in each direction) as the nominal Displays Preferences resolution. That canvas is then scaled onto the actual display.

The idea is to use the extra pixels on a high-PPI display for greater detail – rather than to blindly use all of the extra pixels for workspace, causing text and objects to become tinier and tinier in the process.

fishguy said:

One question I have is if I go for the Apple studio display, why would the text not be even smaller (5K) than on a 4k display?

Click to expand...

People almost always run 27" 5K monitors in a Retina mode. Would you want to try to use a 2x2 stack of four 13.5" 2560x1440 pixel monitors?

People are more inclined to run 27" – 32" UHD 4K monitors in native mode. However, this is pushing it. It's like running a 2x2 stack of four 13.5" – 16" 1920x1080 monitors.

Displays Preferences "resolutions" and apparent PPIs (for text/object sizing purposes):

• 24", 1920x1080 => 91.8 PPI
• 27", 2560x1440 => 108.8 PPI
• 32", 3840x2160 => 137.7 PPI
• 27", 3840x2160 => 163.2 PPI
• 27", 5120x2880 => 217.6 PPI

MacOS can scale anything to anything, and the caveats you see on the web about a "performance hit" are total BS when actually measured on Apple Silicon.

Buy whatever monitor you want.

I've been using a 4k 27" BenQ (PD2700U) with a M1Mac Mini for a year now, without any problems. I use it through HDMI, so apart from native resolution the max scaled as is 2560x1440 (which I use). Through USB-C I/you could get 3008x1692 as max scaled as (on a M1 mac Mini, not sure about a MBP).

CAcreeks said:

MacOS can scale anything to anything, and the caveats you see on the web about a "performance hit" are total BS when actually measured on Apple Silicon.

Buy whatever monitor you want.

Click to expand...

I have to disagree here. Not on the performance but on the font and resolution scaling. In Windows, I can use 4K resolution on 4K display, and set the font to be 100%, 150%, 200%, 225%, etc. This way, I can customize my font size and use native resolution.

On Mac, the font size is locked to the resolution. So in order to increase the font size, need to reduce the resolution. Then I run into games like finding the right resolution (such as downscaling by 2x) for the display resolution to look good, but then that does not guarantee the font size works for my old eyes.

I do not know if this is of any interest or relevance, but it might be.



Fully scalable HiDPI desktop with BetterDisplay

Some Macs tend to have issues with custom resolutions. Apple Silicon Macs notoriously don't allow sub-4K resolution displays to have HiDPI ("Retina") resolutions even though most 1440p display would greatly benefit from having a HiDPI "Retina" mode. On other Macs the resolution options for wide displays are too constrained.

BetterDisplay solves the problem by unlocking your screens making them fully scalable natively while providing a nice HiDPI resolution slider to freely scale the desktop size. Also available is the option to create a flexible virtual "dummy" displays that support an unprecedented range of Retina resolutions. You can then utilize this dummy display as a mirror source for your display achieving any HiDPI resolution or for other purposes.

I heard about BetterDisplay when I watched this rather rambling video today:


More info:

D00M said:

I have to disagree here. Not on the performance but on the font and resolution scaling. In Windows, I can use 4K resolution on 4K display, and set the font to be 100%, 150%, 200%, 225%, etc. This way, I can customize my font size and use native resolution.

On Mac, the font size is locked to the resolution. So in order to increase the font size, need to reduce the resolution. Then I run into games like finding the right resolution (such as downscaling by 2x) for the display resolution to look good, but then that does not guarantee the font size works for my old eyes.

Click to expand...

This is a screenshot of a portion of Ease of Access | Display on Windows 10. So easy!



--
Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com

Henry Richardson said:

I do not know if this is of any interest or relevance, but it might be.

https://github.com/waydabber/BetterDisplay

https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/63642/betterdisplay

Fully scalable HiDPI desktop with BetterDisplay

Some Macs tend to have issues with custom resolutions. Apple Silicon Macs notoriously don't allow sub-4K resolution displays to have HiDPI ("Retina") resolutions even though most 1440p display would greatly benefit from having a HiDPI "Retina" mode. On other Macs the resolution options for wide displays are too constrained.

BetterDisplay solves the problem by unlocking your screens making them fully scalable natively while providing a nice HiDPI resolution slider to freely scale the desktop size. Also available is the option to create a flexible virtual "dummy" displays that support an unprecedented range of Retina resolutions. You can then utilize this dummy display as a mirror source for your display achieving any HiDPI resolution or for other purposes.

I heard about BetterDisplay when I watched this rather rambling video today:

More info:

https://www.theregister.com/2021/12/03/apple_m1_drivers

https://9to5mac.com/2021/11/23/enable-1440p-retina-scaling-m1-mac/

https://www.macworld.com/article/549493/how-to-m1-mac-1440p-display-hidpi-retina-scaling.html

Click to expand...

I use the program and think it is excellent. It allows me to scale a Lenovo L24Q-30 monitor properly when connected to an m1 Mac Mini.

strawbale said:

I've been using a 4k 27" BenQ (PD2700U) with a M1Mac Mini for a year now, without any problems. I use it through HDMI, so apart from native resolution the max scaled as is 2560x1440 (which I use). Through USB-C I/you could get 3008x1692 as max scaled as (on a M1 mac Mini, not sure about a MBP).

Click to expand...

Is the HDMI port on a Mac Mini (Mine's a M1) limited to 2560x1440? It can't do full 4K resolution?

Reason I'm asking is I'm thinking of upgrading to a 4K display and had just assumed the HDMI could do 4K. Of course I have the USB-C ports if that is the only way but I just assumed that the HDMI could do 4K since that's been around for a while and my M1 Mini is pretty recent.

jwilliams said:

strawbale said:

I've been using a 4k 27" BenQ (PD2700U) with a M1Mac Mini for a year now, without any problems. I use it through HDMI, so apart from native resolution the max scaled as is 2560x1440 (which I use). Through USB-C I/you could get 3008x1692 as max scaled as (on a M1 mac Mini, not sure about a MBP).

Click to expand...

Is the HDMI port on a Mac Mini (Mine's a M1) limited to 2560x1440? It can't do full 4K resolution?

Reason I'm asking is I'm thinking of upgrading to a 4K display and had just assumed the HDMI could do 4K. Of course I have the USB-C ports if that is the only way but I just assumed that the HDMI could do 4K since that's been around for a while and my M1 Mini is pretty recent.

Click to expand...

I have an M1 Mac Mini that is driving two 4k monitors at 60hz. My primary monitor is a BenQ PD2725u (using Thunderbolt connection) and the other monitor is an LG 27UD68 (using HDMI connection). Since your Mac Mini is not able to reach 4k@60Hz, I suggest you try a different HDMI cable.

sshapiro said:

jwilliams said:

strawbale said:

I've been using a 4k 27" BenQ (PD2700U) with a M1Mac Mini for a year now, without any problems. I use it through HDMI, so apart from native resolution the max scaled as is 2560x1440 (which I use). Through USB-C I/you could get 3008x1692 as max scaled as (on a M1 mac Mini, not sure about a MBP).

Click to expand...

Is the HDMI port on a Mac Mini (Mine's a M1) limited to 2560x1440? It can't do full 4K resolution?

Reason I'm asking is I'm thinking of upgrading to a 4K display and had just assumed the HDMI could do 4K. Of course I have the USB-C ports if that is the only way but I just assumed that the HDMI could do 4K since that's been around for a while and my M1 Mini is pretty recent.

Click to expand...

I have an M1 Mac Mini that is driving two 4k monitors at 60hz. My primary monitor is a BenQ PD2725u (using Thunderbolt connection) and the other monitor is an LG 27UD68 (using HDMI connection). Since your Mac Mini is not able to reach 4k@60Hz, I suggest you try a different HDMI cable.

Click to expand...

Thanks, but I don't really have problem with reaching 4K, as I don't have a 4K monitor yet. The previous poster implied that you cannot do 4K thru the HDMI port on a Mini (mine's a M1). I'm thinking on getting a 4K monitor, and had previously assumed the HDMI port on the Mini could drive one at full res. If you're using HDMI to run one of your monitors at 4K full res, that would contradict the previous post. Just trying to see what the resolution limit is on the Mini HDMI output assuming it's hooked to a recent vintage 4K monitor with the proper cables etc.

--
Jonathan

jwilliams said:

strawbale said:

I've been using a 4k 27" BenQ (PD2700U) with a M1Mac Mini for a year now, without any problems. I use it through HDMI, so apart from native resolution the max scaled as is 2560x1440 (which I use). Through USB-C I/you could get 3008x1692 as max scaled as (on a M1 mac Mini, not sure about a MBP).

Click to expand...

Is the HDMI port on a Mac Mini (Mine's a M1) limited to 2560x1440? It can't do full 4K resolution?

Click to expand...

According to Apple, the M1 Mac Mini's HDMI output has "Support for one display with up to 4K resolution at 60 Hz."

https://www.apple.com/mac-mini/specs/

https://support.apple.com/kb/SP823?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US

jwilliams said:

Reason I'm asking is I'm thinking of upgrading to a 4K display and had just assumed the HDMI could do 4K. Of course I have the USB-C ports if that is the only way but I just assumed that the HDMI could do 4K since that's been around for a while and my M1 Mini is pretty recent.

Click to expand...

What I think 'strawbale' is indicating is that he can set Displays Preferences resolution (the setting that controls text and object sizes) to

• 3840x2160 (native resolution) – when attaching either via USB-C/DP or via HDMI
• 2560x1440 (Retina) – when attaching either via USB-C/DP or via HDMI
• 3008x1692 (Retina) – only when attaching via USB-C/DP

In both of the Retina modes, the Mini would presumably be sending a 3840x2160 pixel signal to the PD2700U monitor.

jwilliams said:

sshapiro said:

jwilliams said:

Is the HDMI port on a Mac Mini (Mine's a M1) limited to 2560x1440? It can't do full 4K resolution?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Au contraire. Yes it can.

jwilliams said:

jwilliams said:

jwilliams said:

Reason I'm asking is I'm thinking of upgrading to a 4K display and had just assumed the HDMI could do 4K. Of course I have the USB-C ports if that is the only way but I just assumed that the HDMI could do 4K since that's been around for a while and my M1 Mini is pretty recent.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Older HDMI protocols can't do 4K @ 60 Hz, but HDMI 2.0 and higher can.

jwilliams said:

jwilliams said:

I have an M1 Mac Mini that is driving two 4k monitors at 60hz...

Click to expand...

Thanks, but I don't really have problem with reaching 4K, as I don't have a 4K monitor yet. The previous poster implied that you cannot do 4K thru the HDMI port on a Mini (mine's a M1). I'm thinking on getting a 4K monitor, and had previously assumed the HDMI port on the Mini could drive one at full res. If you're using HDMI to run one of your monitors at 4K full res, that would contradict the previous post. Just trying to see what the resolution limit is on the Mini HDMI output assuming it's hooked to a recent vintage 4K monitor with the proper cables etc.

Click to expand...

That was in another thread. The limitation was with his old Dell monitor - so old that it still had DVI-D port - which can't do 4K over HDMI, but can over DisplayPort.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66418311

jwilliams said:

sshapiro said:

jwilliams said:

strawbale said:

I've been using a 4k 27" BenQ (PD2700U) with a M1Mac Mini for a year now, without any problems. I use it through HDMI, so apart from native resolution the max scaled as is 2560x1440 (which I use). Through USB-C I/you could get 3008x1692 as max scaled as (on a M1 mac Mini, not sure about a MBP).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I have an M1 Mac Mini that is driving two 4k monitors at 60hz … Since your Mac Mini is not able to reach 4k@60Hz, I suggest you try a different HDMI cable.

Click to expand...

Thanks, but I don't really have problem with reaching 4K, as I don't have a 4K monitor yet. The previous poster implied that you cannot do 4K thru the HDMI port on a Mini (mine's a M1).

Click to expand...

He said "apart from native resolution." On a BenQ PD2700U, that's 3840x2160 pixels (UHD 4K). So the options he's seeing are native resolution (3840x2160) and a Retina-scaled "like 2560x1440" mode that results in text sizes like that on 27" 2.5K monitors.

Henry Richardson said:

I do not know if this is of any interest or relevance, but it might be.

https://github.com/waydabber/BetterDisplay

https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/63642/betterdisplay

Fully scalable HiDPI desktop with BetterDisplay

Some Macs tend to have issues with custom resolutions. Apple Silicon Macs notoriously don't allow sub-4K resolution displays to have HiDPI ("Retina") resolutions even though most 1440p display would greatly benefit from having a HiDPI "Retina" mode. On other Macs the resolution options for wide displays are too constrained.

BetterDisplay solves the problem by unlocking your screens making them fully scalable natively while providing a nice HiDPI resolution slider to freely scale the desktop size. Also available is the option to create a flexible virtual "dummy" displays that support an unprecedented range of Retina resolutions. You can then utilize this dummy display as a mirror source for your display achieving any HiDPI resolution or for other purposes.

I heard about BetterDisplay when I watched this rather rambling video today:

More info:

https://www.theregister.com/2021/12/03/apple_m1_drivers

https://9to5mac.com/2021/11/23/enable-1440p-retina-scaling-m1-mac/

https://www.macworld.com/article/549493/how-to-m1-mac-1440p-display-hidpi-retina-scaling.html

Click to expand...

A recent video showing the use of BetterDisplay:

Fix for fuzzy text with MacOS UI scaling on external displays