Roy van der Woning
Senior Member
No, but it does make it impossible for criminals to carry them legally.
Do you patronize everyone who doesn't share your views on the world?
Roy.
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dSLR and personal safety
- Thread starter Roy van der Woning
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Roy.
Roy van der Woning
Senior Member
I've been wondering about them too. Sure, manufacturers love to use us as walking billboards (we should get those straps, cases and bags for free!) but it isn't practical by any means. Okay, maybe to show off to your friends and family or as a feeble attempt to impress the senoritas, but other than that I've always found it to be more of a nuisance.
Making the letters invisible with a marker sounds like a good plan!
Roy.
Vern Stevens
Leading Member
Laws ensure nothing when someone is willing to violate the law. Laws are safegaurds that SOMETIMES work for those willing to obey them. A person who can defend themself with a firearm offers a greater safegaurd from that threat.
So you are saying it's the intent of the design, not the actual saving of lives that's important? A life lost is a life lost regardless of whether by auto or by gun.
That may be fine for you, but it can easily prevent others from living their lives. When faced with a criminal with a gun, I'd much rather have the opportunity to fight back with a gun, than an anti-gun law. I'm saying this from the point of view of someone who can carry a gun anyway, regardless of the anti-gun laws. As a police officer, I'd rather see honest citizens AS WELL AS criminals with guns. No, I don't want to see criminals with guns, but they don't care what I want, so they get them anyway.
VES
--
'Deceive, Inveigle, Obfuscate.' - The X-Files (Teliko)
http://www.pbase.com/vsteven
Vern Stevens
Leading Member
Why not just make it unlawful to use a gun to commit crime? We do that in VA, it's called Project Exile. It's been pretty effective locally. Use of a gun in a crime is a seperate charge, with an automatic 5 years jail time, and the judge can't fudge the time. That has the same net effect on criminals as making ALL possession illegal, but still allows honest folks to carry weapons if they choose to. To me it's like drug laws. I don't think use or possession should be illegal. I think your behavior should be regulated by law. If you are using drugs, AND your behavior is a menace to others, then put 'em in jail. Much like alcohol in the states. You can drink (though most of the time not in public) but you generally only get arrested if your coduct is such that you are drunk and a menace or danger to yourself or others.
For my part, I won't patronize you, but I will challenge your view. I realize you were referring to someone else, I just wanted that to be clear.
VES
--
'Deceive, Inveigle, Obfuscate.' - The X-Files (Teliko)
http://www.pbase.com/vsteven
Roy van der Woning
Senior Member
That goes for any law. So should we just abandon them alltogether?
I'm saying that the analogy between something that was designed for a purpose and something else that has this purpose as a side effect is flawed.
Are there any statistics on how many people get killed while being robbed at gunpoint versus how many get killed because they drew a gun at the perp? In other words: is there any proof that your gun doesn't aggravate this kind of situation?
It's not that I'm completely against your point of view. I do understand where you're coming from and I don't intend to pass judgement on you. You sound like someone who can handle his gun ownership responsibly.
What people are worried about though is that this is eventually going to spiral out of control. The criminals have guns, so you get a gun too. Then the criminals get more/better guns. So you need to upgrade your arsenal too. And then there's the added problem of people who don't have your sense of responsibility and that legalizing gun ownership also applies to the criminals.
So I'm rather ambivilent about this issue.
Roy.
Roy van der Woning
Senior Member
Because if I try to rob you, you draw a gun and I shoot you, who is going to prove that it wasn't you who was trying to rob me?
That's what Holland does with soft drugs and that policy is under constant international fire. Go figure.
Yes I was refering to someone else. I'm not outspoken about this. I'm only pointing out that this is not a black and white issue. Both legal ownership and banning have their pros and cons.
Roy.
Jimmer
Senior Member
Oh that lovely neck-strap! Unless I want to impress people around me, I make sure to turn the letters to the inside whenever I'm walking about.
Vern Stevens
Leading Member
Of course not. It just means we need to be judicious in passing laws that restrict the rights of honest people when it will have little to no effect on the criminal. Passing a law against murder is different than passing a law against gun ownership. No one has a "right" to murder someone, but everyone has a "right" to defend themselves. Not all laws passed restrict "rights", the restrict BEHAVIOR that harms other people. That's the key difference.
Okay I understand you are making a semantic argument about the analogy, but the point remains, a life lost is a life lost. People REALLY aren't concerned with the loss of life over guns. They say that, in my mind it's an issue of who has power more than lives saved. If loss of life were the issue, a good many other things would be changed or illegal.
If I can find statistics like that, I will reference them. I know in the US that that is not a stat kept by the FBI UCR. However, in my mind, common sense says that once a criminal has introduce a gun into the situation, he as already "aggravated it". Your response then is self defense. Yes, I realize some folks might pull their gun before a robber could get his, but I don't mind that. The guy/girl shouldn't be robbing someone in the first place. However, if the citizen uses the gun inappropriately or illegally (getting back to his behavior, not his possessions) then he can easily be charged just like the criminal. In most cases, it stands to reason that in either case, the only ones LIKELY to get hurt are the criminal and victim, and the victim already had a two strikes against him when the criminal pulled the gun.
Thank you. I as well, understand where you are coming from, I just disagree, without ambivilence, that it is a good solution.
That's what SOME people are worried about. Obviously on the other side of the equation, some people are worried about being able to defend themselves, not only from criminals, but from an oppressive government from which you have little to no defense. Some say that's an unrealistic fear, others disagree.
As are other folks.
The main thing is dialogue and being informed about the issue. IMHO, reason, not emotions, go much further in dealing with problems.VES
--
'Deceive, Inveigle, Obfuscate.' - The X-Files (Teliko)
http://www.pbase.com/vsteven
Wild-Mike
Veteran Member
I have been involved in Martial Arts since 1976, owned a school and progressed to 4th Dan Black Belt. My only concern is that I would leave the thing sitting around unattended.
--
http://tkis.com/wild-mike/
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The great mistake is to anticipate the outcome of the engagement; you ought not to be thinking of whether it ends in victory or in defeat. Let nature take its course, and your tools will strike at the right moment. - Bruce Lee
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http://tkis.com/wild-mike/
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The great mistake is to anticipate the outcome of the engagement; you ought not to be thinking of whether it ends in victory or in defeat. Let nature take its course, and your tools will strike at the right moment. - Bruce Lee
Vern Stevens
Leading Member
Who is going to prove anything when it's one person's word against anothers? That's a common issue in prosecution. The introduction of a gun doesn't in and of itself change that. This is non-sequitur in my opinion. The criminal will lie anyway and say he didn't rob someone. The circumstances of the crime are much larger than who was armed. Believe me, or not, I have investigated many crimes. Who are the people, where are they at, who's "out of place", who has prior criminal activity, etc. etc. All of these circumstances IN TOTALITY make a difference, not just who's left standing. This doesn't even take into account independent witnesses or skilled interrogation techniques.
But they maintain that policy don't they? As you can guess, I have no problem with people possessing stuff (well for the most part), it's the behavior in conjunction that affects other people.
It may not be, as you say, black and white, but I don't think the waters are as muddied as some folks would like to make them either. Culture certainly can be an issue. What works in one country may not work in another. For my part, I look at what I believe are the underlying principles. People have a human right, if nothing else, to defend themselves and their property. Property ownership is considered by many to be one of the most fundamental rights. Without possessions, without a "retreat", one really doesn't have freedom from others with property. When that is threatened, your freedom is threatened, as well as your life many times.
VES
--
'Deceive, Inveigle, Obfuscate.' - The X-Files (Teliko)
http://www.pbase.com/vsteven
Daniel Entin
Forum Enthusiast
Vern Stevens
Leading Member
So as I mentioned to the other person who brought this up, it's not the actual saving of lives that's important, it the intent in the design of the tool. I beg to differ.
Yes, it is a photography forum. Check what the thread is about, the thread you just participated in.
VES
'Deceive, Inveigle, Obfuscate.' - The X-Files (Teliko)
http://www.pbase.com/vsteven
Yes, it is a photography forum. Check what the thread is about, the thread you just participated in.
VES
--
'Deceive, Inveigle, Obfuscate.' - The X-Files (Teliko)
http://www.pbase.com/vsteven
Vern Stevens
Leading Member
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1033&message=6406314
The first line says it all!!!
VES
The first line says it all!!!
VES
scott trimble
Member
A few years ago I was moving from North Carolina to Arizona with all my belongings in my Honda Civic. I passed through New Orleans during the Jazz Festival so I stopped for two day, slept in my car and photographed the city as it celebrated. I was of course warned many times how dangerous it was and to watch my back which I did very well. I kept my Leatherman with knife out in my front pocket and when I walked, I kept my hands in my pockets with my camera bag on my shoulder.
I was shooting and saw a guy go flying out the second story window of a building, his friends came out to him as did some people on the street (French Quarter) I of course shot the hell out of it and one fellow walked up to me from the crowd getting in my face saying that I shot photos of him. I said I was shooting th eguy flying out the window and he insisted I had gotten him too and that I must pay for a shoe shine from him as payment. Well, I was wearing Teva'a so my hands slowly went to my pockets. He then grabbed my camera bag strap and my hand flew out with the knife. He took off. Now, to my discredit, I had planned some cool, ARNOLD response, but alas, it came out as gibberish ( I think get your F%$* away hands off m%&#$& f&%$er) probably thought I had turets.
I was shooting and saw a guy go flying out the second story window of a building, his friends came out to him as did some people on the street (French Quarter) I of course shot the hell out of it and one fellow walked up to me from the crowd getting in my face saying that I shot photos of him. I said I was shooting th eguy flying out the window and he insisted I had gotten him too and that I must pay for a shoe shine from him as payment. Well, I was wearing Teva'a so my hands slowly went to my pockets. He then grabbed my camera bag strap and my hand flew out with the knife. He took off. Now, to my discredit, I had planned some cool, ARNOLD response, but alas, it came out as gibberish ( I think get your F%$* away hands off m%&#$& f&%$er) probably thought I had turets.
Vern Stevens
Leading Member
Not exactly what you asked for, but some study which correlates deaths and gun ownership.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html
VES
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html
VES
Julio
Veteran Member
Funny responses that highlight cultural differences. Sounds like a lot of you Americans don't think twice about arming yourseves for protection. Must be the reason why on a per-capita basis there are more shootings there than anywhere else in the world.
Insurance is the best option for me. I'm too old now to have much surplus testosterone in my veins. I can sort-of (from a macho perspective) understand "you ain't taking what's mine without a fight" kind of thinking. But I lean pretty heavily towards letting them have it and then sorting it out with my insurance company.
It's what any responsible law enforcement agency will tell you to do if you ask them.
Here in Canada we also have the option of pulling a beer out of our camera bag and offering it to the mugger - our beer is so good that they'll usually take that instead.
--
http://www.pbase.com/j_trujillo
Insurance is the best option for me. I'm too old now to have much surplus testosterone in my veins. I can sort-of (from a macho perspective) understand "you ain't taking what's mine without a fight" kind of thinking. But I lean pretty heavily towards letting them have it and then sorting it out with my insurance company.
It's what any responsible law enforcement agency will tell you to do if you ask them.
Here in Canada we also have the option of pulling a beer out of our camera bag and offering it to the mugger - our beer is so good that they'll usually take that instead.
--
http://www.pbase.com/j_trujillo
ron mcmillan
Leading Member
This whole thread and the (mainly, not all) idiot responses it has engendered is evidence itself of the stupidity of the people whom street thieves and pickpockets mark as precisely the sort of targets they depend upon for their daily needs (whether that be feeding a family in Saigon or feeding a drug habit in Glasgow/New York/NameYourNearestBigCityHere).
I've been a professional photographer since 1987. In that time, I've worked on assignment in over 25 countries, most of them in Asia, and many of those places that would worry most folks concerned with personal safety. In that time, in tens of thousands of miles of travel and hundreds upon hundreds of days wandering strange lands, I only ever lost one camera and lens -- and I left them in a taxi in Hongkong when I was focussing upon looking after my baby daughter and an ailing parent.
There are any number of factors that go into staying safe when travelling, but the biggest one of all is confidence. Confidence that you don't look like a 'rob me!!' outsider dork -- and confidence that, if you do get robbed, your insurance payments are up to date.
As for the dickwads posting pictures of their guns.....perhaps Viagra is the answer to their true needs, not that I'm certain that even Viagra would help ............
rm
I've been a professional photographer since 1987. In that time, I've worked on assignment in over 25 countries, most of them in Asia, and many of those places that would worry most folks concerned with personal safety. In that time, in tens of thousands of miles of travel and hundreds upon hundreds of days wandering strange lands, I only ever lost one camera and lens -- and I left them in a taxi in Hongkong when I was focussing upon looking after my baby daughter and an ailing parent.
There are any number of factors that go into staying safe when travelling, but the biggest one of all is confidence. Confidence that you don't look like a 'rob me!!' outsider dork -- and confidence that, if you do get robbed, your insurance payments are up to date.
As for the dickwads posting pictures of their guns.....perhaps Viagra is the answer to their true needs, not that I'm certain that even Viagra would help ............
rm
auroraproject
Senior Member
So we are "dickwads" because we choose to arm and defend ourselves? No one is forcing anything on you Ron, so you don't agree, thats no grounds for personal attacks.
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Equipment list in profile.
On the MP3 player: 'Somewhere I Belong' Linkin Park
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ron mcmillan
Leading Member
I know full well there is no point whatsoever in replying to such a response, but in any case, AP, I stuck the slur of ******* only upon the people who think that carrying guns around might make them (or anyone else) safer. And if that includes you, so be it.
I just don't get it with folks who want to carry death in their pockets, but can't handle being called names for doing so. And don't bother giving the Constitution speech, since that only applies to, believe it or not, a very small, very inward-looking, albeit it dangerously rich, part of the globe.
And anyway, is the Viagra working?....
I just don't get it with folks who want to carry death in their pockets, but can't handle being called names for doing so. And don't bother giving the Constitution speech, since that only applies to, believe it or not, a very small, very inward-looking, albeit it dangerously rich, part of the globe.
And anyway, is the Viagra working?....
Wild-Mike
Veteran Member
Sounds like maybe a case of IC
In any case, I do agree with the self confidence aspect of Ron's post but IMHO I certainly feel that Ron has demonstrated his lack of self control by calling users dickwads ...a definite sign of IC.
Ron, bad day or what?
http://tkis.com/wild-mike/
http://wnyboaters.com/
It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer -- Albert Einstein
In any case, I do agree with the self confidence aspect of Ron's post but IMHO I certainly feel that Ron has demonstrated his lack of self control by calling users dickwads ...a definite sign of IC.
Ron, bad day or what?
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http://tkis.com/wild-mike/
http://wnyboaters.com/
It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer -- Albert Einstein
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