Have camera makers "abandoned" entry level?

As for the severely "budget restrained", there's always the used camera market.
Yes! Finally! Somebody else sees it!

We live in an information era so any savvy beginner is probably going to go used. There's no way camera manufacturers can compete with the millions of used camera bodies available for basic photography. The only real reason to go super new is for video.
"Savvy beginner"

Those are two words you don't often see used together.
Why not? There's nothing that binds the "savvy" and the "beginner" to the same subject. One can be "savvy" at researching things on the internet, having great eBay-fu, etc, but still be a "beginner" at photography.
When the expression savvy is used it refers to something in particular . So if we are talking about money then one would be savvy with money but yes it can be a complete idiot regarding something else.

In this case if talking about photography , the term cannot be used correctly because one cannot be knowlegeable/wise about photography and be a beginner at the same time.

The same is for , say, expert. I can't be an expert and a beginner in a particular field at the same time.
 
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I find myself sometimes hesitant to decide which side of the fence I am on. I like my cameras and prefer them as playthings and as a hobby, and they for sure have features that at least presently, cannot be found in cell phone cameras. But as far as others, who have no desire to do anything more than take good photographs in the most differing conditions to share with family and friends, believe at the present state of technology in phones and affordable cameras, the phone wins easily. I hate to admit it, but believe it to be the case. Example, my wife loves to take photos of kids, grandkids, and great grandkids, and has always carried a digital point and shoot in her purse, which is something that gives women an advantage by the way. But since she got a decent phone camera, she has actually taken her point and shoot out of her purse, and only uses the phone, which in her hands outperforms the point and shoots by leaps and bounds. And momma's happy about it which makes things better overall around here I might add. Now I'm afraid she is going to start noticing that my phone does even better than hers and want a new phone next though. :-(
Ha! Yeah, chasing after the latest and greatest phone gets expensive. My rule is to completely ignore all info on phones for at least two or three years. If my current phone is annoying me for some reason by then I will do a little reading to see if the problem has been solved. I'm also lucky enough to be able to easily afford high-end phones. Increasingly, there are very good less expensive models for those who can't.

I'm finding it difficult to justify carrying anything but a phone on vacations. There is rarely enough time for me to take more than a hasty shot with either one, and phones are very good at that sort of thing. And, of course, I already have the phone with me for maps, looking things up in Wikipedia, and very rarely calls. I wish it had more versatility, but for IQ in good light I have little to complain about (it's a Pixel 6 Pro).
 
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As for the severely "budget restrained", there's always the used camera market.
Yes! Finally! Somebody else sees it!

We live in an information era so any savvy beginner is probably going to go used. There's no way camera manufacturers can compete with the millions of used camera bodies available for basic photography. The only real reason to go super new is for video.
"Savvy beginner"

Those are two words you don't often see used together.
Why not? There's nothing that binds the "savvy" and the "beginner" to the same subject. One can be "savvy" at researching things on the internet, having great eBay-fu, etc, but still be a "beginner" at photography.
When the expression savvy is used it refers to something in particular .
No, when either the noun or adjective "savvy" is used, it most certainly does not refer to something in particular. It is, by definition, "general".

From the OED. (yes, whatever dictionary you have... mine's bigger).

savvy, n. and a. slang.

(ˈsævɪ)

Also 8 scavey, 9 savey (Sc. savie), savvey.

A n. Practical sense, intelligence; ‘nous’, gumption.

B adj. Of persons, etc.: having practical sense, quick-witted; knowledgeable, wily, experienced.

25 cites all the way back to 1785 and not one supports your rather creative interpretation.
So if we are talking about money then one would be savvy with money but yes it can be a complete idiot regarding something else.
A "complete idiot" would, by definition not be "savvy" (quick witted, wily, etc).

Also, "idiot" is an ableist slur that needs to die in a fire. Again back to the OED,

1.a A person without learning; an ignorant, uneducated man; a simple man; a clown. Obs. (most recent cite 1722, hence the "Obs." or "obsolete" designation).

1.b spec. A layman. Obs. (most recent cite 1660).

1.c One not professionally learned or skilled; also, a private (as opposed to a public) man. Obs. (most recent cite 1663).

Here's what it's meant for the last 300 years:

2.a A person so deficient in mental or intellectual faculty as to be incapable of ordinary acts of reasoning or rational conduct. Applied to one permanently so afflicted, as distinguished from one who is temporarily insane, or ‘out of his wits’, and who either has lucid intervals, or may be expected to recover his reason.

So by using "idiot" as you have, you're basically slamming the mentally challenged, lumping them in with those who remain willfully ignorant of a subject.
In this case if talking about photography , the term cannot be used correctly because one cannot be knowlegeable/wise about photography and be a beginner at the same time.
Of course one can.

I've dealt with people knowledgeable about portrait photography or event photography who were beginners at macro photography or high speed photography.
The same is for , say, expert. I can't be an expert and a beginner in a particular field at the same time.
That's only true if you make such narrow definitions of "a particular field" that you sound totally ridiculous.

As is your original argument. The context, that sportyaccordy was talking about an "internet savvy" or "shopping savvy" "photographic beginner" is so obvious that interpreting it any other way is an exercise in pedantry intended not to engage in discussion or educate, but simply to bully. Don't be that person: it will poison your art.
 
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As for the severely "budget restrained", there's always the used camera market.
Yes! Finally! Somebody else sees it!

We live in an information era so any savvy beginner is probably going to go used. There's no way camera manufacturers can compete with the millions of used camera bodies available for basic photography. The only real reason to go super new is for video.
"Savvy beginner"

Those are two words you don't often see used together.
Has this word "savvy" some share etymology with "saving"?

If savvy beginners are hard to find, thrifty photographers are probably quite numerous. I've been one, and still am.
It comes from the Latin sapere (to know) via the Portoguese sabe, "he knows".
Salve!
 
As for the severely "budget restrained", there's always the used camera market.
Yes! Finally! Somebody else sees it!

We live in an information era so any savvy beginner is probably going to go used. There's no way camera manufacturers can compete with the millions of used camera bodies available for basic photography. The only real reason to go super new is for video.
"Savvy beginner"

Those are two words you don't often see used together.
Has this word "savvy" some share etymology with "saving"?

If savvy beginners are hard to find, thrifty photographers are probably quite numerous. I've been one, and still am.
It comes from the Latin sapere (to know) via the Portoguese sabe, "he knows".
That would be "sabe", an old Negro slang verb.

The older noun and adjective forms used in the context of this discussion can be traced back to Scottish slang "savie" and French savez(-vois) "do you know".

Parallel paths: fascinating, no?
 
This is an example of sentences including the word "savvy".

https://sentence.yourdictionary.com/savvy

It would be obvious to most , but not you, that it comes with a qualifier such as "Technically savvy, shopper savvy, art savvy, savvy consumers and so on.

In other words one can and often is, savvy within a particular area but may not be at all in others.
 
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Good point, and at present I am still happy with my iphone 13 pro, but unfortunately, I am frequently getting this "how come my phone can't do that as good as yours can" from the boss around here. There lies my possible next upgrade.

Even more problem could arise from the next iphone worthy of upgrade for her, might well be better than my 13 pro, then the viscous circle starts. Then it will be me that wants the next generation. Was simpler when we both had the same model, but she chose not to upgrade when I did for the 13. Oh well, life is full of hurdles.
 
As for the severely "budget restrained", there's always the used camera market.
Yes! Finally! Somebody else sees it!

We live in an information era so any savvy beginner is probably going to go used. There's no way camera manufacturers can compete with the millions of used camera bodies available for basic photography. The only real reason to go super new is for video.
"Savvy beginner"

Those are two words you don't often see used together.
In this era of information I don't think it's that unreasonable. Lots of expensive hobbies (cycling comes to mind) have great resale markets and communities/resources to help steer and guide people through them.

I mean when I bought my first camera I admittedly just walked into B&H and bought something that "looked like a real camera" (Fujifilm s6000fd). After that experience I actually did some research and bought my first real camera (D40 kit- used of course!). So maybe I'm just projecting my personal experience. But it doesn't seem that out of line.
While not unreasonable, I don't think it is common. I think what you did is far more common, and as a beginner, even finding B&H is above what most beginners do. I think far more beginner rigs sold through Costco, Target, WalMart, Best Buy. etc.

I am not even sure its reasonable to expect a beginner to make sense of the used market, with the hundreds of options available. Most beginners would melt down.

We give advice here, thinking we are talking in beginner mode, but truthfully, look at the beginner page on this forum. A newb walks in, ask a simple question, and look at the responses. They all assume a level of expertise that most beginners just do not have.
 
In the Nikon Z30 announcement article, someone commented that "all manufacturers seem to be abandoning entry level and budget restrained photographers."

Does anyone here believe this?
Nope, not at all...such great, new cameras under $1000 these days. Buy used and you can have awesome and modern digital cameras for less than $500 with a lens.
I remember going camera shopping with a friend around 1984. He ended up with a Nikon FG, Nikon's entry level camera of the day. The FG launched in 1982, at $325. Running that through the US inflation calculator, that's $975 in 2022 money. There are a ton of capable cameras today at that price point.
Exactly...and the FG was truly low end. Prices only went up from there!
I honestly believe that the "entry level" is in better shape than it has ever been before.
I agree... so much so that some entry level cameras do not seem like entry level.
As for the severely "budget restrained", there's always the used camera market. So many of us started out that way. My Nikon FM2 and FA were both used cameras, as were my 50/1.4, 20/2.8, 35/2.8 PC (shift lens), 55/3.5 macro, 105/2.5, 200/4 macro. And the 50/1.4 radioactive Pentax Super Takumar I bought used for my ancient Vivitar 220.
And you have your choice still between digital and film... a choice we didn't used to have.
 
As for the severely "budget restrained", there's always the used camera market.
Yes! Finally! Somebody else sees it!

We live in an information era so any savvy beginner is probably going to go used. There's no way camera manufacturers can compete with the millions of used camera bodies available for basic photography. The only real reason to go super new is for video.
"Savvy beginner"

Those are two words you don't often see used together.
Why not? There's nothing that binds the "savvy" and the "beginner" to the same subject. One can be "savvy" at researching things on the internet, having great eBay-fu, etc, but still be a "beginner" at photography.
When the expression savvy is used it refers to something in particular . So if we are talking about money then one would be savvy with money but yes it can be a complete idiot regarding something else.

In this case if talking about photography , the term cannot be used correctly because one cannot be knowlegeable/wise about photography and be a beginner at the same time.

The same is for , say, expert. I can't be an expert and a beginner in a particular field at the same time.
You're confusing savviness for skill. I can put it this way. I'm thinking about getting into mountain biking. I know nothing about it, but coming from a bunch of equipment based hobbies, I already know how to shop for deals once I figure out what I'm looking for. So people can be beginners in a hobby but savvy/experienced at buying equipment.

Plus with how popular/prevalent photography is in social media, I imagine a lot of the young people will be headed that way to find out how to get started.
 
You're confusing savviness for skill. I can put it this way. I'm thinking about getting into mountain biking. I know nothing about it, but coming from a bunch of equipment based hobbies, I already know how to shop for deals once I figure out what I'm looking for. So people can be beginners in a hobby but savvy/experienced at buying equipment.

Plus with how popular/prevalent photography is in social media, I imagine a lot of the young people will be headed that way to find out how to get started.
and you failed to read the page I posted that link too : https://sentence.yourdictionary.com/savvy

where it is very clear that most often savvy is used to mean knowlegeable in a particular area/field/hobby activity. That is why the examples in that link (no, I did not write it...) have savvy used as an adjective with the particular type io savvy listed next to it, as for example "art savvy". I am pretty sure that many art savvy people are not savvy at all when it comes to other situations.

As I already pointed out one can be a very wise shopper but a totaly incompetent cook or gardener or investor and so on.

Don't forget that the origin of the word has to do with knowledge (sapere means to know) and the way the word started to be used in the more modern time was to mean "he knows" , no one knows everything about everything.


https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/savvy https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/savvy
 
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As for the severely "budget restrained", there's always the used camera market.
Yes! Finally! Somebody else sees it!

We live in an information era so any savvy beginner is probably going to go used. There's no way camera manufacturers can compete with the millions of used camera bodies available for basic photography. The only real reason to go super new is for video.
"Savvy beginner"

Those are two words you don't often see used together.
In this era of information I don't think it's that unreasonable. Lots of expensive hobbies (cycling comes to mind) have great resale markets and communities/resources to help steer and guide people through them.

I mean when I bought my first camera I admittedly just walked into B&H and bought something that "looked like a real camera" (Fujifilm s6000fd). After that experience I actually did some research and bought my first real camera (D40 kit- used of course!). So maybe I'm just projecting my personal experience. But it doesn't seem that out of line.
While not unreasonable, I don't think it is common. I think what you did is far more common, and as a beginner, even finding B&H is above what most beginners do. I think far more beginner rigs sold through Costco, Target, WalMart, Best Buy. etc.

I am not even sure its reasonable to expect a beginner to make sense of the used market, with the hundreds of options available. Most beginners would melt down.

We give advice here, thinking we are talking in beginner mode, but truthfully, look at the beginner page on this forum. A newb walks in, ask a simple question, and look at the responses. They all assume a level of expertise that most beginners just do not have.
You're probably not wrong. I just can't shake the idea that the huge used market is a reason why the bottom of the market has fallen out. Ebay, KEH etc are selling to somebody.
 
You're confusing savviness for skill. I can put it this way. I'm thinking about getting into mountain biking. I know nothing about it, but coming from a bunch of equipment based hobbies, I already know how to shop for deals once I figure out what I'm looking for. So people can be beginners in a hobby but savvy/experienced at buying equipment.

Plus with how popular/prevalent photography is in social media, I imagine a lot of the young people will be headed that way to find out how to get started.
and you failed to read the page I posted that link too : https://sentence.yourdictionary.com/savvy
Nope.

But you failed to read where I said "From the OED. (yes, whatever dictionary you have... mine's bigger)."

Now, in case you're not familiar, the Oxford English Dictionary is the largest, most thorough, most well curated, and most respected dictionary of any language on the entire planet.

This "yourdictionary.com" that you cited in response is literally something scraped together by a small team of amateurs.

You know the old saying "he brought a knife to a gun fight"? Well, you brought a paper straw.
where it is very clear that most often savvy is used to mean knowlegeable in a particular area/field/hobby activity. That is why the examples in that link (no, I did not write it...) have savvy used as an adjective with the particular type io savvy listed next to it, as for example "art savvy".
Adjectives precede nouns.
I am pretty sure that many art savvy people are not savvy at all when it comes to other situations.

As I already pointed out one can be a very wise shopper but a totaly incompetent cook or gardener or investor and so on.

Don't forget that the origin of the word has to do with knowledge (sapere means to know)
I already addressed the error you made there with the parallel origins of the noun and verb forms of "savvy".

You tried to flex and bully people. You were called out. The wise sam would stand down gracefully.

--
Christine Fleischer 1947-2014.
My soulmate. There are no other words.
-----
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.
Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.
----
Ciao! Joseph
www.swissarmyfork.com
 
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As for the severely "budget restrained", there's always the used camera market.
Yes! Finally! Somebody else sees it!

We live in an information era so any savvy beginner is probably going to go used. There's no way camera manufacturers can compete with the millions of used camera bodies available for basic photography. The only real reason to go super new is for video.
"Savvy beginner"

Those are two words you don't often see used together.
Why not? There's nothing that binds the "savvy" and the "beginner" to the same subject. One can be "savvy" at researching things on the internet, having great eBay-fu, etc, but still be a "beginner" at photography.
When the expression savvy is used it refers to something in particular . So if we are talking about money then one would be savvy with money but yes it can be a complete idiot regarding something else.

In this case if talking about photography , the term cannot be used correctly because one cannot be knowlegeable/wise about photography and be a beginner at the same time.

The same is for , say, expert. I can't be an expert and a beginner in a particular field at the same time.
You're confusing savviness for skill. I can put it this way. I'm thinking about getting into mountain biking. I know nothing about it, but coming from a bunch of equipment based hobbies, I already know how to shop for deals once I figure out what I'm looking for. So people can be beginners in a hobby but savvy/experienced at buying equipment.

Plus with how popular/prevalent photography is in social media, I imagine a lot of the young people will be headed that way to find out how to get started.
I think virtually everyone got what you meant. The one who made the joke had to have gotten your meaning or the joke wouldn’t have worked. It appears the only person who didn’t get it is sort of an intellectual bully who posts only to build himself up by hurting others.



That is a pity, because helping others builds you up in a much more satisfying way. Life is not a zero-sum game: nobody has to lose for me to win.
 
As for the severely "budget restrained", there's always the used camera market.
Yes! Finally! Somebody else sees it!

We live in an information era so any savvy beginner is probably going to go used. There's no way camera manufacturers can compete with the millions of used camera bodies available for basic photography. The only real reason to go super new is for video.
"Savvy beginner"

Those are two words you don't often see used together.
In this era of information I don't think it's that unreasonable. Lots of expensive hobbies (cycling comes to mind) have great resale markets and communities/resources to help steer and guide people through them.

I mean when I bought my first camera I admittedly just walked into B&H and bought something that "looked like a real camera" (Fujifilm s6000fd). After that experience I actually did some research and bought my first real camera (D40 kit- used of course!). So maybe I'm just projecting my personal experience. But it doesn't seem that out of line.
While not unreasonable, I don't think it is common. I think what you did is far more common, and as a beginner, even finding B&H is above what most beginners do. I think far more beginner rigs sold through Costco, Target, WalMart, Best Buy. etc.

I am not even sure its reasonable to expect a beginner to make sense of the used market, with the hundreds of options available. Most beginners would melt down.
If buying a camera is too difficult for someone, how will they ever overcome the challenge of using it?
We give advice here, thinking we are talking in beginner mode, but truthfully, look at the beginner page on this forum. A newb walks in, ask a simple question, and look at the responses. They all assume a level of expertise that most beginners just do not have.
But the key thing is that the newb asks questions: they don’t just melt down.

Are we, as experienced photographers, not upholding our part of the social contract in not helping newbies well enough? Probably.
 
In this era of information I don't think it's that unreasonable. Lots of expensive hobbies (cycling comes to mind) have great resale markets and communities/resources to help steer and guide people through them.

I mean when I bought my first camera I admittedly just walked into B&H and bought something that "looked like a real camera" (Fujifilm s6000fd). After that experience I actually did some research and bought my first real camera (D40 kit- used of course!). So maybe I'm just projecting my personal experience. But it doesn't seem that out of line.
While not unreasonable, I don't think it is common. I think what you did is far more common, and as a beginner, even finding B&H is above what most beginners do. I think far more beginner rigs sold through Costco, Target, WalMart, Best Buy. etc.

I am not even sure its reasonable to expect a beginner to make sense of the used market, with the hundreds of options available. Most beginners would melt down.

We give advice here, thinking we are talking in beginner mode, but truthfully, look at the beginner page on this forum. A newb walks in, ask a simple question, and look at the responses. They all assume a level of expertise that most beginners just do not have.
You're probably not wrong. I just can't shake the idea that the huge used market is a reason why the bottom of the market has fallen out. Ebay, KEH etc are selling to somebody.
I'm convinced that the modern enormous and accessible used equipment market is what's devastated the camera makers' entry level lines. Back in "the good old days" nothing ever really went to waste: you'd haul an old buggy or tractor to the big flea market and sell it or trade it. But life got too complicated: there were too many barriers of distance, spare time, and knowledge between old equipment and eager new owners, so equipment sat. And we got comfortable with that, so next thing you know we let more and more old stuff pile up in our closets, and manufacturers saw the opportunity to sell "entry level equipment" at used equipment prices. Equipment that is one day destined for the landfill because it doesn’t hold up as well as more robust older gear.

eBay, Craigslist, and KEH are not a new approach, they're a modernized version of the more efficient way we kept used equipment in circulation for centuries.
 
You're confusing savviness for skill. I can put it this way. I'm thinking about getting into mountain biking. I know nothing about it, but coming from a bunch of equipment based hobbies, I already know how to shop for deals once I figure out what I'm looking for. So people can be beginners in a hobby but savvy/experienced at buying equipment.

Plus with how popular/prevalent photography is in social media, I imagine a lot of the young people will be headed that way to find out how to get started.
and you failed to read the page I posted that link too : https://sentence.yourdictionary.com/savvy

where it is very clear that most often savvy is used to mean knowlegeable in a particular area/field/hobby activity. That is why the examples in that link (no, I did not write it...) have savvy used as an adjective with the particular type io savvy listed next to it, as for example "art savvy". I am pretty sure that many art savvy people are not savvy at all when it comes to other situations.

As I already pointed out one can be a very wise shopper but a totaly incompetent cook or gardener or investor and so on.

Don't forget that the origin of the word has to do with knowledge (sapere means to know) and the way the word started to be used in the more modern time was to mean "he knows" , no one knows everything about everything.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/savvy

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/savvy https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/savvy
Here's the definition that comes up on Google:

"shrewdness and practical knowledge; the ability to make good judgments."

So no it's in no way limited to being knowledgeable in a specific field/area/hobby. You say the phrase "savvy beginner" doesn't make sense, but personally I'm not quite sure what a "savvy photographer" is.

Bottom line, and I could 100% be wrong, I think there's a large cohort/overlap of people who are new to photography but also know how to find a deal in any market thanks to the internet. The latter part of that is what I'm calling "savvy". Obviously someone brand new to photography won't be knowledgeable about it.
 
You're confusing savviness for skill. I can put it this way. I'm thinking about getting into mountain biking. I know nothing about it, but coming from a bunch of equipment based hobbies, I already know how to shop for deals once I figure out what I'm looking for. So people can be beginners in a hobby but savvy/experienced at buying equipment.

Plus with how popular/prevalent photography is in social media, I imagine a lot of the young people will be headed that way to find out how to get started.
and you failed to read the page I posted that link too : https://sentence.yourdictionary.com/savvy

where it is very clear that most often savvy is used to mean knowlegeable in a particular area/field/hobby activity. That is why the examples in that link (no, I did not write it...) have savvy used as an adjective with the particular type io savvy listed next to it, as for example "art savvy". I am pretty sure that many art savvy people are not savvy at all when it comes to other situations.

As I already pointed out one can be a very wise shopper but a totaly incompetent cook or gardener or investor and so on.

Don't forget that the origin of the word has to do with knowledge (sapere means to know) and the way the word started to be used in the more modern time was to mean "he knows" , no one knows everything about everything.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/savvy

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/savvy https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/savvy
Here's the definition that comes up on Google:

"shrewdness and practical knowledge; the ability to make good judgments."

So no it's in no way limited to being knowledgeable in a specific field/area/hobby. You say the phrase "savvy beginner" doesn't make sense, but personally I'm not quite sure what a "savvy photographer" is.

Bottom line, and I could 100% be wrong, I think there's a large cohort/overlap of people who are new to photography but also know how to find a deal in any market thanks to the internet. The latter part of that is what I'm calling "savvy". Obviously someone brand new to photography won't be knowledgeable about it.
I think you got the 'Savvy" part correct, but, the term can also be used for a street wise photographer (he's a savvy chap).. i.e. the photograph many years ago of a naked chap running across the Lords Cricket Ground during a match, the photograph shown in the morning paper was as follows:- the photographer bailed the guy out, took him back to Lords and he then photographed him running across an empty cricket pitch.. Savvy & Street Wise.. L

--
If you understand everything, you must be misinformed...
 
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Any decent phone is more than an entry level camera. Many cameras are around $300 and nice on it's own, better than phones. Sony A7II was $900 a few days ago if one insists and insists on a larger 35mm sensor.
 
I could not be bothered going to the library and certainly I am not going to spend 100 pounds to get access to the complete OD version but I had a look at the Learners Version because I thought it was very apropriate here.

This is the entry :

savvy noun /ˈsævi/ /ˈsævi/[uncountable] (informal)
  1. practical knowledge or understanding of something
I had already posted a link to 3 on line dictionaries (the first three that came up on google) , all well known and possibly not written by incompetents either.

All three pretty much had the same definition the learners dictionary has.
 
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