Canon R7 @15fps. Rolling shutter still on electronic?

Hi!

I am still waiting for my R7 and see that the rolling shutter @30fps makes alot of rolling shutter so people use 15fps mecanical shutter instead. My question do you get less or zero rolling shutter at 15fps electonic as well or is the rolling shutter the same regardless what fps you use in the electronic mode?

Alexanderssons said:

Hi!

I am still waiting for my R7 and see that the rolling shutter @30fps makes alot of rolling shutter so people use 15fps mecanical shutter instead. My question do you get less or zero rolling shutter at 15fps electonic as well or is the rolling shutter the same regardless what fps you use in the electronic mode?

Click to expand...

It should not matter. It's a function of sensor readout speed and shooting slower burst doesn't speed up how fast you can read the data off the sensor

PicPocket said:

Alexanderssons said:

Hi!

I am still waiting for my R7 and see that the rolling shutter @30fps makes alot of rolling shutter so people use 15fps mecanical shutter instead. My question do you get less or zero rolling shutter at 15fps electonic as well or is the rolling shutter the same regardless what fps you use in the electronic mode?

Click to expand...

It should not matter. It's a function of sensor readout speed and shooting slower burst doesn't speed up how fast you can read the data off the sensor

Click to expand...

it's also a function of how fast the subject is moving, how much of the frame the subject covers and the direction of movement across the frame.

Yesterday I was photographing a tiny (Australian) fairywren standing on a fencepost.
These are twitchy little birds and just the sideways flick of its tail was enough for the rolling effect to be evident - something I've never see before with this species when shooting with e-shutter on my Olympus cameras - they have the same sensor read time as the R5

Peter

Messier Object said:

PicPocket said:

Alexanderssons said:

Hi!

I am still waiting for my R7 and see that the rolling shutter @30fps makes alot of rolling shutter so people use 15fps mecanical shutter instead. My question do you get less or zero rolling shutter at 15fps electonic as well or is the rolling shutter the same regardless what fps you use in the electronic mode?

Click to expand...

It should not matter. It's a function of sensor readout speed and shooting slower burst doesn't speed up how fast you can read the data off the sensor

Click to expand...

it's also a function of how fast the subject is moving, how much of the frame the subject covers and the direction of movement across the frame.

Click to expand...

Those factors are independent from the camera or its settings, but agreed - they are needed for full explanation. Same answer to OP

--
PicPocket
http://photography.ashishpandey.com

Alexanderssons said:

Hi!

I am still waiting for my R7 and see that the rolling shutter @30fps makes alot of rolling shutter so people use 15fps mecanical shutter instead. My question do you get less or zero rolling shutter at 15fps electonic as well or is the rolling shutter the same regardless what fps you use in the electronic mode?

Click to expand...

As others have replied, the rolling shutter is highly evident at any frame rate, including single shot.

Another thing to note is that the 15fps mechanical shutter (H+ drive mode) comes with a big limitation - the viewfinder does not refresh smoothly but turns into a "slide-show", only showing the last image recorded. This makes it hard to track a moving object, although it is fine for a stationary one. The regular H drive mode is 6.5 fps mechanical and 8 fps electronic first-curtain shutter. In this drive mode the viewfinder refreshes in between shots, although the viewfinder blackout during each shot is pronounced.

For reference, I am comparing the R7 to a Nikon D500 DSLR that has a true 10fps mechanical shutter. Even with all the mirror flipping going on and the higher frame rate in the D500 the viewfinder blackout appears to me to be less than the R7. The R7's mechanical shutter isn't much quieter than the D500 either, despite the mirror flipping in the latter.

I am guilty of not researching the R7 in full detail before making the purchase, but I am somewhat disappointed in both the electronic and mechanical shutter in this camera. The mechanical shutter doesn't compare very well against a 6 year old premium DSLR, and the electronic shutter has rolling shutter effects as bad as any mirrorless camera with a slow sensor. It's not quite the high end APS-C camera I was hoping for.

Alexanderssons said:

Hi!

I am still waiting for my R7 and see that the rolling shutter @30fps makes alot of rolling shutter so people use 15fps mecanical shutter instead. My question do you get less or zero rolling shutter at 15fps electonic as well or is the rolling shutter the same regardless what fps you use in the electronic mode?

Click to expand...

Rolling shutter speed is the same regardless of 30fps or 15fps, for ES. It isn't the 30fps that causes rolling shutter artifacts, it is the electronic rolling shutter travel time, which has nothing directly to do with "fps" or "shutter speed".

ZapperVT said:

I am guilty of not researching the R7 in full detail before making the purchase, but I am somewhat disappointed in both the electronic and mechanical shutter in this camera. The mechanical shutter doesn't compare very well against a 6 year old premium DSLR, and the electronic shutter has rolling shutter effects as bad as any mirrorless camera with a slow sensor. It's not quite the high end APS-C camera I was hoping for.

Click to expand...

Yeah, 1/30s is significantly worse than 1/60s for a lot of subject matter. This zone is probably the most critical. I wonder how much they could have sped it up if the camera used 12-bit readout for e-shutter; if not 1/60s, maybe 1/45s, which, considering the big difference between 1/30s and 1/60s, would probably be a marked improvement.

ZapperVT said:

As others have replied, the rolling shutter is highly evident at any frame rate, including single shot.

Click to expand...

I'm confused. How do you have rolling shutter on a single shot? Are you talking about panning for a single shot or motion blur? If motion blur, shutter speed needs to be increased. If panning on a single shot, I don't find that to be a problem personally since anything not in focus wouldn't matter.

--
Steve
Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they are open - Unknown

Steve Fink said:

ZapperVT said:

As others have replied, the rolling shutter is highly evident at any frame rate, including single shot.

Click to expand...

I'm confused. How do you have rolling shutter on a single shot? Are you talking about panning for a single shot or motion blur? If motion blur, shutter speed needs to be increased. If panning on a single shot, I don't find that to be a problem personally since anything not in focus wouldn't matter.

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Panning for single shot is one scenario. Unless the background is completely blurred beyond recognition, tilted verticals (buildings, trees, people, etc) are a major image defect in my mind.

Or, a single shot of a moving object without panning, as illustrated below. Then the object leans, not the background.

This is not a new issue. Rolling shutter distortions have been with us since the invention of the focal plane shutter in the 1880's and first used extensively by Lieca starting in 1925. Mechanical focal plane shutters have become fast enough so you don't see the effect unless photographing really high speed objects.

[ATTACH alt="A "leaning" 1920s Dixi race car. The distortion is caused by a shutter wiping downward in the focal plane (upward in the scene)."]3132278[/ATTACH]
A "leaning" 1920s Dixi race car. The distortion is caused by a shutter wiping downward in the focal plane (upward in the scene).

Steve Fink said:

ZapperVT said:

As others have replied, the rolling shutter is highly evident at any frame rate, including single shot.

Click to expand...

I'm confused. How do you have rolling shutter on a single shot?

Click to expand...

Rolling shutter only affects single frames. Imagine a vertical pole and camera panning across it. Due to slow readout of the data off the sensor, the position of the top of the pole is not right above the bottom of the pole, because by the time the last row of pixels is read out, the position of the pole has moved. You end up with a slanted pole in the image

Steve Fink said:

Are you talking about panning for a single shot or motion blur?

Click to expand...

Unlike motion blur, the whole shot can be sharp, just distorted out of true shape

Steve Fink said:

If motion blur, shutter speed needs to be increased.

Click to expand...

If there is significant subject motion within the sensor readout period, you can see this at fastest shutter speeds

PicPocket said:

Steve Fink said:

ZapperVT said:

As others have replied, the rolling shutter is highly evident at any frame rate, including single shot.

Click to expand...

I'm confused. How do you have rolling shutter on a single shot?

Click to expand...

Rolling shutter only affects single frames. Imagine a vertical pole and camera panning across it. Due to slow readout of the data off the sensor, the position of the top of the pole is not right above the bottom of the pole, because by the time the last row of pixels is read out, the position of the pole has moved. You end up with a slanted pole in the image

PicPocket said:

Are you talking about panning for a single shot or motion blur?

Click to expand...

Unlike motion blur, the whole shot can be sharp, just distorted out of true shape

PicPocket said:

If motion blur, shutter speed needs to be increased.

Click to expand...

If there is significant subject motion within the sensor readout period, you can see this at fastest shutter speeds

Click to expand...

Good explanation. I'll find out more when I get the camera. I never noticed it with shots on my 5DMKIV or 7DMKII, but it may be there and I never noticed it. If this is a problem for BIF shots, I'll just keep using my other cameras for those shots. I'm a hobbyist that doesn't pixel peep for one, or look closely at shots for distortions, unless obviously noticeable.

Steve Fink said:

ZapperVT said:

As others have replied, the rolling shutter is highly evident at any frame rate, including single shot.

Click to expand...

I'm confused. How do you have rolling shutter on a single shot? Are you talking about panning for a single shot or motion blur? If motion blur, shutter speed needs to be increased. If panning on a single shot, I don't find that to be a problem personally since anything not in focus wouldn't matter.

Click to expand...

The shutter is rolling all the time with all R-series cameras and most cameras in general. The electronic curtains are rolling in every shot, and the mechanical curtains can also be employed to time exposure more narrowly and roll the exposure faster.

Whether or not you notice depends on context. Only a completely static scene shot from a solid tripod in totally consistent light would have no potential of rolling shutter effects.

Steve Fink said:

Good explanation. I'll find out more when I get the camera. I never noticed it with shots on my 5DMKIV or 7DMKII, but it may be there and I never noticed it. If this is a problem for BIF shots, I'll just keep using my other cameras for those shots. I'm a hobbyist that doesn't pixel peep for one, or look closely at shots for distortions, unless obviously noticeable.

Click to expand...

Only DSLRs with ES mode in live view will ever have a roll that is slow like the R7 in ES. OVF mode and EFCS live view have fast rolling shutters.

Steve Fink said:

I never noticed it with shots on my 5DMKIV or 7DMKII, but it may be there and I never noticed it.

Click to expand...

If you were using mechanical shutter with those cameras, you would not see it. Mechanical shutter is a physical barrier. If the shutter is only open for a smaller exposure time, even if it takes longer to read the whole sensor, it won't matter because while the bottom row of pixels is waiting to be read, the shutter has already blocked light so it's just waiting in dark without registering any light from moved off subject. It behaves like film that the sensor is recording independent from the exposed shutter

Now that these cameras are so ubiquitous,perhaps raw editors could do a pixel shift so poles can be straightened. It would need something like Lightroom's straighten tool, but just shift pixels. The pixels are there but slanted, no interpolation needed, but will require a crop. Assuming the shifting is linear across the frame.

Mike Engles said:

Now that these cameras are so ubiquitous,perhaps raw editors could do a pixel shift so poles can be straightened. It would need something like Lightroom's straighten tool, but just shift pixels. The pixels are there but slanted, no interpolation needed, but will require a crop. Assuming the shifting is linear across the frame.

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Interpolation is absolutely necessary to de-slant, otherwise, you may get quantized steps.

There is a certain tragedy here, in that interpolation works best with the least artifacts when the pixel count is higher, but the higher count is a *cause* of slower rolling shutter, when a limited pixel bandwidth is engineered.

I think it won't work if the subject is moving but the background is static, or vice versa with panning and matching the speed of the subject. But it would be great to have some sort of tool like that even it is imperfect.

ZapperVT said:

Another thing to note is that the 15fps mechanical shutter (H+ drive mode) comes with a big limitation - the viewfinder does not refresh smoothly but turns into a "slide-show", only showing the last image recorded. This makes it hard to track a moving object, although it is fine for a stationary one. The regular H drive mode is 6.5 fps mechanical and 8 fps electronic first-curtain shutter. In this drive mode the viewfinder refreshes in between shots, although the viewfinder blackout during each shot is pronounced.

Click to expand...

How bad is the blackout? I have an R7 on order. I shoot motocross and BMX races and I often shoot sequence shots. From the beginning of a jump, in the air, and then the landing. Am I going to regret my purchase if I cannot keep the bikes in the frame due to the fact that I cannot see them?

How is the battery life? On my 7Dii, i can get about 3000-3500 shots on a single battery if I don't play with the screen too much.

Imajica said:

Imajica said:

Another thing to note is that the 15fps mechanical shutter (H+ drive mode) comes with a big limitation - the viewfinder does not refresh smoothly but turns into a "slide-show", only showing the last image recorded. This makes it hard to track a moving object, although it is fine for a stationary one. The regular H drive mode is 6.5 fps mechanical and 8 fps electronic first-curtain shutter. In this drive mode the viewfinder refreshes in between shots, although the viewfinder blackout during each shot is pronounced.

Click to expand...

How bad is the blackout? I have an R7 on order. I shoot motocross and BMX races and I often shoot sequence shots. From the beginning of a jump, in the air, and then the landing. Am I going to regret my purchase if I cannot keep the bikes in the frame due to the fact that I cannot see them?
How is the battery life? On my 7Dii, i can get about 3000-3500 shots on a single battery if I don't play with the screen too much.

Click to expand...

When I compare the R7 with electronic first shutter in H (8fps) with my D500 in H (10 fps), the viewfinder in the R7 is definitely jerkier when I'm panning. It's not a total slide show like on the H+ speed but the real framerate in the viewfinder is low. The D500 has blackouts when the mirror is up obviously but the viewfinder refresh is immediate when the mirror is down, and it's easier to follow movement. Since the 7Dii is in the same league as the D500, I think you might be disappointed with the R7 in comparison. On the other hand, the AF on the F7 does things my D500 can't do.

Really what you and I want is a performance APS-C camera with a stacked sensor and blackout free viewfinder. That's what I was hoping for, but that's not what Canon wanted to make.

I can't give you a shots per battery life, because I haven't been keeping track. I don't think it's as good as my D500. Those EVFs use a lot of juice.

ZapperVT said:

Imajica said:

ZapperVT said:

Another thing to note is that the 15fps mechanical shutter (H+ drive mode) comes with a big limitation - the viewfinder does not refresh smoothly but turns into a "slide-show", only showing the last image recorded. This makes it hard to track a moving object, although it is fine for a stationary one. The regular H drive mode is 6.5 fps mechanical and 8 fps electronic first-curtain shutter. In this drive mode the viewfinder refreshes in between shots, although the viewfinder blackout during each shot is pronounced.

Click to expand...

How bad is the blackout? I have an R7 on order. I shoot motocross and BMX races and I often shoot sequence shots. From the beginning of a jump, in the air, and then the landing. Am I going to regret my purchase if I cannot keep the bikes in the frame due to the fact that I cannot see them?
How is the battery life? On my 7Dii, i can get about 3000-3500 shots on a single battery if I don't play with the screen too much.

Click to expand...

When I compare the R7 with electronic first shutter in H (8fps) with my D500 in H (10 fps), the viewfinder in the R7 is definitely jerkier when I'm panning. It's not a total slide show like on the H+ speed but the real framerate in the viewfinder is low. The D500 has blackouts when the mirror is up obviously but the viewfinder refresh is immediate when the mirror is down, and it's easier to follow movement. Since the 7Dii is in the same league as the D500, I think you might be disappointed with the R7 in comparison. On the other hand, the AF on the F7 does things my D500 can't do.

Really what you and I want is a performance APS-C camera with a stacked sensor and blackout free viewfinder. That's what I was hoping for, but that's not what Canon wanted to make.

I can't give you a shots per battery life, because I haven't been keeping track. I don't think it's as good as my D500. Those EVFs use a lot of juice.

Click to expand...

What is the point of creating a camera with 15fps Mechanical if when you come to use it, you in effect become blind? When shooting fast-moving sports, you cannot use the Electronic shutter because of the rolling shutter effect. Sure the AF must be incredible, but it has a high cost. Sure if you shoot photos one at a time, it is more than fine, but as a sports camera, it becomes more of a hindrance. Or if you have to slow it down, then it sort of defeats the purpose of having 15fps.

I know the AF on the 7Dii has some issues locking on to subjects moving all over the place. I can never use full frame focusing as it likes to track the ground and I get too many misses. So I have to use the middle set of focus points, so the number plate is in focus, but not the head. If I use the top focus points, I get the impression they are not as accurate as the center ones and I get a lot of misses. Shooting in portrait mode. So I am hoping the R7 will be better. However, if I cannot see the subject I am tracking, I am no better off.

I am almost considering canceling the order and waiting until the store gets a demonstrator model that I can test out before spending $2k (CAD)

While the R3 is well out of my budget, does it have the same blackout issues as the R7?