The PetaPixel View of the "Failure" of the Foveon

xpatUSA said:

Scottelly said:

D Cox said:

Scottelly said:

rick decker said:

Well certainly a full-size 20mp 3-layer camera would hold more appeal than the Quattro. That said, my feeling is that if they can't do (really do) high iso and not just ISO400, they won't get great sales. There is are good reasons why the FP line is so successful and if it didn't have high ISO (12500) it wouldn't have the numbers it has now. That is the main reason I got an FP and that is the reason I got one.

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Low-ISO image quality is the most important thing, and Sigma's cameras with Foveon sensors offer that. That is the main reason I got an SD 14, then an SD 1 Merrill, ". . . and that is the reason I got one."

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As motion blur is the biggest problem for image quality, I think ISO 800 image quality is the most important thing, especially if you want to avoid moving parts in the camera as much as possible.

Don

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What happens to dynamic range when you step up to ISO 200? Then ISO 400? Then finally to ISO 800?

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Hmmm ...

xpatUSA said:

I shoot almost exclusively at ISO 100 (or ISO 64 when using my Nikon). I don't get a lot of motion blur. Hmmm . . .

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Your Nikon, according to our Bill Claff:



Looks like it drops quite bit, Scott.

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xpatUSA said:

--
what you got is not what you saw ...

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Big Print Photos - Photography by Scott Barton Kennelly

Landscape and nature photography, photographic prints by Scott Barton Kennelly, an Australian photographer living in south Florida.

www.bigprintphotos.com

Doppler9000 said:

J. Michael said:

Iain G Foulds said:

(snip) major international company like Sigma..... is a massive failure.

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??????????

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Your ellipsis is pretty dishonest, and your resulting puzzlement even moreso.

Doppler9000 said:

Before Thomas Edison discovered tungsten for use as a filament for light bulbs a lot of people thought he was a failure also.

Creativity, innovation, and curiosity are the things that motivate some people, and Mr Yamaki's father always wanted to be a quality camera maker, and his son has made a commitment to carry on the dream. Sigma supposedly takes good care of its employees (unlike like a lot of american corporations) and spends what it can on camera development without sacrificing its overall financial success.

Greed may be the most prevalent motivator, in the U.S. and around the world, but creativity and innovation are the things that really made this country great...greed is actually destroying economies around the world, including the U.S.

You apparently think that greed/profit are the reasons to pursue a dream; you have my sympathies.

P.S. tried to find an early interview with Mr. Yamaki in this forum about his fathers dream, without success. Maybe others who are a little more aware of the history/background/dream of Mr. Yamaki's father can chime in/provide a link in so you have a better appreciation for the motivations behind Sigma camera development (image quality being the ultimate goal), but even with that info I'm guessing you still won't get it. :-(

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Edison, electrocuted dogs in public squares, calling it “Westinghousing” them, to try to gain a competitive edge.

Nikolai Tesla quit as Edison’s apprentice not only because Edison cheated him out of $50,000, but Tesla felt “soiled ” by Edison’s greed.

If you look a little more objectively, you will likely see that innovation and the profit motive are inextricably linked. Innovation without commercialization changes nothing - or do you have counter-examples?

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Doppler9000 said:

J. Michael said:

Doppler9000 said:

J. Michael said:

Iain G Foulds said:

(snip) major international company like Sigma..... is a massive failure.

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??????????

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Your ellipsis is pretty dishonest, and your resulting puzzlement even moreso.

Doppler9000 said:

Before Thomas Edison discovered tungsten for use as a filament for light bulbs a lot of people thought he was a failure also.

Creativity, innovation, and curiosity are the things that motivate some people, and Mr Yamaki's father always wanted to be a quality camera maker, and his son has made a commitment to carry on the dream. Sigma supposedly takes good care of its employees (unlike like a lot of american corporations) and spends what it can on camera development without sacrificing its overall financial success.

Greed may be the most prevalent motivator, in the U.S. and around the world, but creativity and innovation are the things that really made this country great...greed is actually destroying economies around the world, including the U.S.

You apparently think that greed/profit are the reasons to pursue a dream; you have my sympathies.

P.S. tried to find an early interview with Mr. Yamaki in this forum about his fathers dream, without success. Maybe others who are a little more aware of the history/background/dream of Mr. Yamaki's father can chime in/provide a link in so you have a better appreciation for the motivations behind Sigma camera development (image quality being the ultimate goal), but even with that info I'm guessing you still won't get it. :-(

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Edison, electrocuted dogs in public squares, calling it “Westinghousing” them, to try to gain a competitive edge.

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A Little more to that story:

"Hastings found a willing ally in Harold P. Brown. A consulting engineer who had somehow been double-crossed by Westinghouse Electric, Brown was eager for revenge. With the blessing of the Edison managers, Brown organized demonstrations for reporters at Edison’s laboratory in West Orange, New Jersey, in which stray dogs were electrocuted using Westinghouse Electric AC equipment."

Scroll down to "battle of the currents"

Battle of the Currents

And another link with the same info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_currents

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Is this intended to show that Edison was driven by something other than profit?

Doppler9000 said:

Doppler9000 said:

Nikolai Tesla quit as Edison’s apprentice not only because Edison cheated him out of $50,000, but Tesla felt “soiled ” by Edison’s greed.

If you look a little more objectively, you will likely see that innovation and the profit motive are inextricably linked. Innovation without commercialization changes nothing - or do you have counter-examples?

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DaVinci Perhaps.

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I can certainly appreciate DaVinci. Not sure there was a lot of commercialization of his designs, however. Where do you suppose the money that funded DaVinci came from?

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Doppler9000 said:

Doppler9000 said:

This might be an interesting read, but if its not in your DNA to be able to appreciate it, nothing anyone can say will change your thinking.

https://eightysixfourhundred.com/motivated-by-money/

Bon Chance, Mike

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How about some actual examples? You know, evidence, that supports your position, instead of the snide morally-superior dismissal and a link to a fluff piece on true happiness.

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Iain G Foulds said:

… J. Michael: The issue is not about greed, or how well a company treats it’s employees.

… It is about influence and advancing photographic technology. The truth is that, aside from a very small circle of quite technical photographers, Sigma has failed on both these accounts.

… Tragic really. A brilliant and unique innovation insufficiently developed and poorly marketed.

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xpatUSA said:

Doppler9000 said:

Jeffry7 said:

Doppler9000 said:

Using the Sparrow criterion, how about 1.4 gigapixels at f/1.4? Or 357 MP at f/2.8?

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Do you have a better link than this? When I tried to search for the Sparrow distance I got a thousand pages on the bird.

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Try Sparrow criterion, not sparrow distance. Jim Kasson has written about the issue elsewhere, as well.

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Here you are, Jeff:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparrow's_resolution_limit

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rick decker said:

Well certainly a full-size 20mp 3-layer camera would hold more appeal than the Quattro. That said, my feeling is that if they can't do (really do) high iso and not just ISO400, they won't get great sales. There is are good reasons why the FP line is so successful and if it didn't have high ISO (12500) it wouldn't have the numbers it has now. That is the main reason I got an FP and that is the reason I got one.

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Scottelly said:

Doppler9000 said:

Scottelly said:

xpatUSA said:

Link posted for what it's worth!

PetaPixel is known for occasional (!) plagiarism but an interesting read nonetheless, at least for me:

https://petapixel.com/foveon-x3-image-sensor-explained/

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"Sigma even had to create a plugin for Adobe Photoshop in order to get Foveon files opened."

Balderdash! Lies. Is this really a hit piece on Sigma?

"At best, from this calendar, it seems unrealistic to expect a mass-produced sensor before 2024."

What calendar?

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Gregorian.

Sigma isn’t even working on the full-size prototype. They have to get the reduced resolution, trial working, then, if it goes well, design and fabricate a full size prototype, develop the associated electronics, write the firmware, spec everything for production, then schedule production with the chip maker, with what is surely a fairly small run, during an ongoing pandemic with various supply issues.

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During an ongoing pandemic?!? The vaccine has been available in high volume for more than a year. There is no pandemic going on anymore . . . no matter how much you might want everyone to believe there is. I doubt they have significant supply issues in Japan. The main reason we have supply issues here in the U.S. is California's ridiculous government, and similar governmental overreach in Oregon and Washington (and Washington D.C too). Those are clearing up though, and there are very few supply chain issues today.

Scottelly said:

What is your time estimate, given where they are in the development process and all of the uncertainties?

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Nobody knows, but Sigma, and even Sigma seems to have no idea . . . but to say it will be 2024, with no explanation of why he thinks that, just seems like negativity to me. Sigma may have the camera prototype sitting on a shelf, waiting for the sensor right now. Much of the firmware is already made, and working in the SD Quattro. Firmware to process the images from the sensor may already be available from the Merrill cameras, with a few small changes necessary.

Scottelly said:

Scottelly said:

"While it isn’t impossible that Sigma releases a new camera with a full-frame Foveon sensor, there is still a long way to go in selling the technology outside of the existing Foveon community, let alone making it an industry standard."

I don't think Sigma has any interest in making their sensors the industry standard, and competing with Sony for the imaging sensor market.

Sorry Ted, I couldn't read the whole thing after reading that garbage.

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Scottelly said:

xpatUSA said:

Doppler9000 said:

Jeffry7 said:

Doppler9000 said:

Using the Sparrow criterion, how about 1.4 gigapixels at f/1.4? Or 357 MP at f/2.8?

Click to expand...

Do you have a better link than this? When I tried to search for the Sparrow distance I got a thousand pages on the bird.

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Try Sparrow criterion, not sparrow distance. Jim Kasson has written about the issue elsewhere, as well.

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Here you are, Jeff:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparrow's_resolution_limit

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The problem with all this resolution limit balderdash is it seems to either be misunderstood or it's just not practical and in tune with reality.

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Scottelly said:

I only say this because I remember people talking about how a 6 MP sensor in a Nikon D70 (I think that was the model) was at the resolution limit, and that a 12 MP full-frame camera would be "perfect." I bought into that, thinking I wouldn't be able to get more detail in my photos practically.

Well, today I shoot with a 36 MP full-frame camera, and I can see the difference in detail captured with a 50 MP camera vs my 36 MP camera . . . but I'm not supposed to be able to.

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Scottelly said:

It's my opinion that we will still see improvements in image quality when full-frame sensors step up from 50 MP to 100 MP, if that does indeed happen....

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