Full Circle?

Truman Prevatt

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The news and the video of the auction of the Oskar Barnack's 0-series prototype camera for 15 million USD got me thinking. Oskar Barnack was the head camera designer at Leica and in 1920 he had a dream - a high quality camera everyone could carry with them all the time. One that used a roll film format - that didn't exist at the time. At the time the still cameras used either 4x5 or 5x7 sheet film. The Graflex was the most common. The Speed Graphics was the standard press camera of the first half of the 20th century.

In 1920, Barnack took an arms length of 35 mm movie film and put it in a canister and built a camera to use it. The 35 mm camera we use today with the 2x3 aspect ratio was born on that date. The same aspect ratio used in the APSC and FF digital cameras of today. The 35 mm fame size is the same as FF digital today. The camera auctioned was the one Barnack personally used for about 10 years refining his idea.

The Leica 35 mm ILC was announced in 1924 and first sold to the public in 1925. It is not too much to say this change the camera industry. Now the average person could buy and carry around a small camera in their pocket to take pictures of their family, friends, dog, their trips, etc. The Leica camera because the choice of many war photojournalist and used by Robert Capa, W. Eugene Smith and most others to bring images from WWII back to the people in the US. Two of the most dramatic images in the Vietnam war were taken on a Leica M3 - Eddy Adams' "Saigon Execution" and Nick Ut's "Napalm Girl." The M3's used by Capa, Smith, Adams and Ut were smaller than the original prototypes! Of course lets not forget one of the greatest candid street photographer in history - Henri Cartier-Bresson and his beloved Leica M3 and 5 cm lens.

Then along comes the SLR - which started out larger than the Leica rangefinder but rapidly grew to monsters - some as heavy as the Speed Graphic. I bought a used Nikon F2 from the Baltimore Sun when they upgraded their cameras to the F3. It was about as much fun to lug around as a couple bricks which is why most of my 35 mm film work was done on my M4.

Then came the digital SLR and the DSLR started out pretty big but the grew bigger over time. And the lenses grew in size and weight.

Then came Fuji to flip that trend and introduced the X series. These were high quality small cameras - small enough so people could throw them in a small bag and carry with them to take shots of their family, their trips or just out kicking around enjoying themselves. Their vision seemed to match Barnack's. The X100 fixed lens, the XPro and XT ILC's, etc. That was 10 years ago. These were great knock around cameras. High quality but yet small with compact lenses afforded by the APSC format. But somehow - over the past 10 years all Fuji cameras and particularly the lenses have gotten bigger and heavier. The 33 f1.4 significantly larger and heavier than the 35 f1.4 with no real noticeable advantages except for video. The XT4 makes the XT1 look like a midget. The XPro2/3 while not as bad compared to the XPro1 - have also put on some width and girth. At what point has Fujifilm screwed the pooch and gotten away from what made it special?

We expected the XH2 to be comparable to the XH1 and it is. A little good news it is a little smaller but not by much. But what about the down line. Is the XT5 going to grow over the XT4? Is the XPro4 going to grow over the XPro3? Where are the modern fast compact lenses like the 18 f2 and 35 f1.4 MK II?

So we seem to be coming full circle - as cameras today are becoming too big and cumbersome to carry around just to have one if you get the urge. Barnack freed us and gave us a perfect compact camera based on a new film format. That revolutionized the camera industry. The Leica M has been true to Barnack's vision even today. Fujifilm gave us another vision and other options but it seems Fuji is going Full Circle back to bigger and heavier cameras and lenses in the opposite direction why many people bought into them 10 years ago.

I get they have to broaden their base. But in doing so they should to take care not to forget those that brought them to the dance and gotten the X series to where it is today. The next year will be instructive in understanding what Fujifilm's vision is today.
 
And Leica recently cancelled the CL which was the closest they came to the Barnack Leica in digital, but I think we will have to see all of this technology trickle back down to small cameras in the years to come. For now, the Ricoh GR series is my choice for pocket cameras. The XE and Xpro with Fuji X. I am just not a fan of all of these me too dslr shaped mirrorless cameras. They are all just copying each other and are way too focused on video. I get it, but I don’t have to like it.

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But then there's the XeE4, or the also reasonably compact X-S10. With small and compact lenses still available, both primes and zooms.

XF27mm was quite compact I believe?

And the XC15-45 is small and compact too.
 
And Leica recently cancelled the CL which was the closest they came to the Barnack Leica in digital, but I think we will have to see all of this technology trickle back down to small cameras in the years to come. For now, the Ricoh GR series is my choice for pocket cameras. The XE and Xpro with Fuji X. I am just not a fan of all of these me too dslr shaped mirrorless cameras. They are all just copying each other and are way too focused on video. I get it, but I don’t have to like it.
Actually the Leica M3 is 138x77x34 (mm) and the M10 is 139x80x39 (mm). That's not bad for 80 years considering a battery had to be included in a digital camera. The CL was 131x78x45 - it didn't need the distance for the OVF. But the CL is more or less the same size as the M.

Barnack's camera was the Leica M. There was no CL in 1925!

Of course Fuji has to expand its base and video is required to do that. I don't like it either but I understand it and accept it. The question in my mind is - does Fujifilm leave the girl they brought to the dance to pursue the expanded market. It sure seems that way.
 
But then there's the XeE4, or the also reasonably compact X-S10. With small and compact lenses still available, both primes and zooms.

XF27mm was quite compact I believe?

And the XC15-45 is small and compact too.
I just purchased an xe4 and the newest pancake lens. It really is a small bit of kit.
 
But then there's the XeE4, or the also reasonably compact X-S10. With small and compact lenses still available, both primes and zooms.

XF27mm was quite compact I believe?

And the XC15-45 is small and compact too.
True, but on both of these you have to sacrifice features and or quality.

But more important: I think Truman is referring to the trend: the X-T's for instance have grown in size and weight. I hope that trend won't hold
 
The problem is: sensor technology has reached a peak in IQ. If Fuji wants to sell new cameras, they have to have new features: a lot of them are for video, but there's also more fps, better and bigger EVF, more durable batteries, IBIs, etc.

All these features add size and weight to the camera. You can always buy an older camera if you want an small one.

What would you want from a camera the size of an existing X-T3 or X-E4 that the cameras doesn't already have and it didn't introduce a penalty in size and weight? The only thing I can get is a new processor and better AF, but that's about it.
 
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But then there's the XeE4, or the also reasonably compact X-S10. With small and compact lenses still available, both primes and zooms.

XF27mm was quite compact I believe?

And the XC15-45 is small and compact too.
True, but on both of these you have to sacrifice features and or quality.

But more important: I think Truman is referring to the trend: the X-T's for instance have grown in size and weight. I hope that trend won't hold
Bingo. I would be willing to wager that people that were drawn to Fuji were those that saw a high quality full featured APSC camera - not the APSC pieces of garbage Sony, Nikon and Canon were dangling to get people into their system so they could sell them more expensive FF models.

The XEx - nice camera but not the top end of Fuji line. Same for XT-xx and XSxx. But the question becomes is Fuji still committed to a top end camera APSC line that doesn't break one's back. The XT5 and XPro4 will answer that question. Given the 33 f1.4 and 23 f1.4 WR both designed to fast focus and mitigate focus breathing for video - I'm beginning to wonder. The 33 f1.4 is no more a replacement for the 35 f1.4 than a Tesla is a 4x4 pickup truck when one needs a 4x4 pickup truck.

We will soon see if Fuji is headed in the same direction of bigger, heavier cameras at higher price lines to increase margins. If video is driving that maybe Fuji should consider high end end limited video models of the XT and XPro line. Not everyone cares about video. Fuji X did not make its name on video. Ten years ago it hit the market as a high quality small form factor APSC camera with a UI that drew people to it.
 
Amen. I have an X- T2 and an X-T10, and other than possibly upgrading the latter to an X-T20, I have no particular path to a new Fuji camera as a stills only shooter who prefers small flat cameras with analog style controls. If my only choices are large cameras with deep grips, dual control wheels and large super fast lenses, I can get that anywhere. Fuji used to represent something different.

I would have said I don't see any lenses I might want to add either (short of perhaps the 90mm f/2), but the recent hints at a 30mm macro have me curious again.
 
Today, it's the smartphone that is the visionary device of a generation. Designed to be portable and elegant in its intuitive user experience, the smartphone brings within reach the most powerful & complex technologies of our time. It is the smartphone, with its built-in camera, that is used by billions of people around the globe. If a person awakens to discover their home is on fire, they'll grab their smartphone on the way out the door.

If there's a camera from the last 10-15 years that will sell for tens of millions at auction at some point in the future, it is the one included in the prototype iPhone.
 
I'll go one better and say that for me even the X-T3 was too much. I bought an X-T2 and it worked out great for me.

But do you want to be the company who tells its original customers to buy an old camera on the used market if they want a replacement? I have zero problems with it, but there are those who won't do that. Not to mention that there is no profit for Fuji in a secondhand sale.
 
Barnack's camera was the Leica M. There was no CL in 1925!
His camera was not the M... he made the first screw mount Leica. 30 years later, they introduced the M3.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Barnack

My point was that the CL and the screw mount Leicas were similar in size.

leica-cl-02.jpg

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Instagram = @johngellings0
 
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If there's a camera from the last 10-15 years that will sell for tens of millions at auction at some point in the future, it is the one included in the prototype iPhone.
The first camera phone was the KyoceraVisual Phone VP-210 in 1999. The first iPhone was in 2007.
 
But then there's the XeE4, or the also reasonably compact X-S10. With small and compact lenses still available, both primes and zooms.

XF27mm was quite compact I believe?

And the XC15-45 is small and compact too.
True, but on both of these you have to sacrifice features and or quality.

But more important: I think Truman is referring to the trend: the X-T's for instance have grown in size and weight. I hope that trend won't hold
Bingo. I would be willing to wager that people that were drawn to Fuji were those that saw a high quality full featured APSC camera.
What means high quality full featured APSC camera?

Are high quality need include below ?
  • full aluminum/magnesium/titanium body
  • weather sealing (rated to IP53?)
Are full featured need include below ?
  • 40MP BSI sensor
  • 15 fps mechanical shutter
  • e-shutter faster than 20 fps
  • IBIS
  • Electronic Variable ND filter (optical based)
The XEx - nice camera but not the top end of Fuji line.
Design philosophy - less is more 😛
Same for XT-xx
No news for X-T40. May be discontinue soon.
and XSxx.
It aim to attract new consumer from other brand via IBIS in lightweight body. Avoid impact to X-T4 selling via PASM dials.
But the question becomes is Fuji still committed to a top end camera APSC line that doesn't break one's back. The XT5 and XPro4 will answer that question.
Are X-T5 new features only 40MP BSI sensor and newer AF algorithm? Are it will attract consumer who worries small pixel in 40MP sensor impact DR performance?

Are X-Pro 4 need IBIS? Legacy film camera hasn't IBIS.
Given the 33 f1.4 and 23 f1.4 WR both designed to fast focus and mitigate focus breathing for video - I'm beginning to wonder. The 33 f1.4 is no more a replacement for the 35 f1.4 than a Tesla is a 4x4 pickup truck when one needs a 4x4 pickup truck.
Are X-T5 with 40MP BSI sensor required these heavier lens? Since Fujifilm claims that both lenses will offer minimal focus breathing and higher resolution than the company's first generation of F1.4 primes. Interestingly, these lenses also project larger image circles for better stabilization performance with in-body image stabilization systems.

We will soon see if Fuji is headed in the same direction of bigger, heavier cameras at higher price lines to increase margins.
Higher price is current trend of many camera company include Fujifilm.

Main issue is Fujifilm failed to provide high-end lightweight APS-C line for stills photography :
  • IPX rating true weather sealing
  • computational photography multi-shot mode e.g. Live ND, Live Composite, HDR+
  • electronic variable ND filter
  • 2.33M dots/1080x720 pixels rear LCD screen
  • dual dedicated menu - pure stills and videography (e.g. Canon R5C).
If video is driving that maybe Fuji should consider high end end limited video models of the XT and XPro line. Not everyone cares about video.
Agree. Video oriented camera need different menu and features e.g. waveform, vectorscope, built-in active cooling system, compressed RAW and more sound input interface...
Fuji X did not make its name on video. Ten years ago it hit the market as a high quality small form factor APSC camera with a UI that drew people to it.
 
If there's a camera from the last 10-15 years that will sell for tens of millions at auction at some point in the future, it is the one included in the prototype iPhone.
The first camera phone was the KyoceraVisual Phone VP-210 in 1999. The first iPhone was in 2007.
It was the smartphone and the iPhone in particular that led to the demise of the entry level camera market. More importantly, it was the iPhone that completely changed how people stay connected with friends, family, and so many other aspects of our lives. That and the connection with Steve Jobs will make the original prototype iPhone more desirable as a collectible.
 
Barnack's camera was the Leica M. There was no CL in 1925!
His camera was not the M... he made the first screw mount Leica. 30 years later, they introduced the M3.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Barnack

My point was that the CL and the screw mount Leicas were similar in size.

leica-cl-02.jpg
The screw mount lenses from the Leica 35 mm cameras the were the predecessors of the M will work just fine in the M. The big advance in the M is the bayonet mount - theM mount. But this is a rabbit hole - and intent was where is Fuji going and how are they going to address the needs and desires of the users group that took a chance on the X series when the direction seems to point to bigger and heavier.

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Truman
www.pbase.com/tprevatt
 
Today, it's the smartphone that is the visionary device of a generation. Designed to be portable and elegant in its intuitive user experience, the smartphone brings within reach the most powerful & complex technologies of our time. It is the smartphone, with its built-in camera, that is used by billions of people around the globe. If a person awakens to discover their home is on fire, they'll grab their smartphone on the way out the door.

If there's a camera from the last 10-15 years that will sell for tens of millions at auction at some point in the future, it is the one included in the prototype iPhone.
An Apple-1sold for $905,000 at auction in 2014. I don’t see many cameras that collectors would be interested in. The iPhone like the Apple-1 and the original Leica 35 mm camera that evolved into the Leica M changed the course of history. That is why the are important and valuable.
 
If you go to Fujifilm and tell them you a few thousand of your friends are willing to pay for a small, light, stills only camera at $10 K USD for body only and $6K USD for a 35mm F1.4 lens - I am sure Fujifilm would be more than happy to take your money for a special one off camera and lens for you and your friends. Sort of like a kick starter project.

If one wants a camera body in the 1299-1499 range and F1.4 lenses for less thant $1K - I am afraid its going to have video features and probably larger than you would like.
 
Well said, Truman.

One of the main reasons I bought into the Fuji fold was the allure of the truly capable compact digital ILC -- the X-E2, (which you didn't mention but follows the Leica concept more so that the other X-series cameras).

The X-E series, up to and including X-E4, (and the MF GFX-50R) shows that at least some designers at Fujifilm were, until recently, still interested in the true compact camera approach. The so-called Fujicron lenses also fit into this design concept. I hope Fujifilm returns to this design philosophy in the not-too-distant future.
 
If you go to Fujifilm and tell them you a few thousand of your friends are willing to pay for a small, light, stills only camera at $10 K USD for body only and $6K USD for a 35mm F1.4 lens - I am sure Fujifilm would be more than happy to take your money for a special one off camera and lens for you and your friends. Sort of like a kick starter project.
Sony E 15mm F1.4 G
  • weather-sealing
  • aperture ring
  • Internal autofocus is driven via a pair of linear motor
  • Cost $750
  • weight 218g
If Fujifilm extract 23mm F2 pancake lens from X100V and sell as $399. It will become popular lens for Fujifilm X-Pro and X-E series too.

P.s. Fujifilm X100V cost $1,399. Fujifilm X-E4 cost $850. How much hybrid OVF and 23mm F2 from X100V cost?
If one wants a camera body in the 1299-1499 range and F1.4 lenses for less thant $1K - I am afraid its going to have video features and probably larger than you would like.
OP seem like didn't ask for PURE stills photography camera.

Stills oriented lightweight APS-C is different, X100V still provide video recording features in short duration.

Current $1,099 X-T3 already provide 4K 30p uncropped. It enough for consumer who just shoot short live style clips.

If Fujifilm release $1,199 lightweight X-T3 II features with below specs, believe it will popular too
  • 26MP BSI-CMOS X-Trans
  • X-Processor 5 for better AF algorithm
  • 6 stops IBIS, same as X-S10
  • Still two pivoting tilting screen
  • Lightweight weather sealing aluminum body around 500 gram (similar to X-T2)
  • Replace DRIVE dials with AF subject dials
  • Built-in Computational photography multi-shot mode e.g. Pixel Shift High Res, Live ND, Live Composite, HDR+...
  • Same video features as legacy X-T3
P.s. X-S10 with 6 stops IBIS cost $999. X-T30 II without IBIS cost $899. It means IBIS unit cost $100. Aluminum body featuring better heat dissipation and cheaper cost. Leica M11 also using aluminum top cover too.
 
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