RF-S.... deja vu/fool me twice, shame on me

The only thing more tiresome than an Ef-m moaner is a 7d mk ii moaner.
Hey, nobody asked you to read this thread. That was your choice and by extension your fault.
No worries! I chose to read the thread because I find it invigorating to point out how tiresome the moaning is. I will enjoy mounting my Ef-s lenses on my R7. And when the RF-S L lenses start rolling out …
I wouldn’t hold my breath for any RF-S L lenses. A couple decades worth and they had no red rings on EF-S glass either. But I do expect by the time all is fleshed out, 8-10 decent RF-S lenses for a smaller kit. I also fully expect them to have a bit of a taper with the mount larger than the barrel. Modeled more after the EF-M lenses on an RF mount rather than the EF-S lenses.

I read somewhere once you get out beyond 250-300mm, there isn’t quite the size benefit anymore as the optics need to be a certain size and it doesn’t change with the projected image circle.
Not holding my breath. but they have been doing things they never did before: the RF 100-400, a “consumer” lens that covers a coveted range, and for the first time they have provided extenders that work on a “consumer” lens. They have released a 600 and an 800mm lens, both under $1000. So who knows…of course, moaners gonna moan!
 
  1. sportyaccordy wrote:
What is the point of RF-S?
They had to have two kit lenses to bundle with the new cameras. 18-150 total range. Slow, cheap, tiny (particularly the 18-45). Having a functional camera to sell, with a lens attached, is why.
Who are the customers for RF-S?

Only ones I can think of are wildlife shooters who will use the R7 like a teleconverter
Yeah, they don’t count!
But who else? The disgruntled EF-M shooter whose gear Canon just rendered worthless?
But not the many, many happy Ef-m shooters who don’t care and don’t even hear the moaning.
The brand agnostic enthusiast crop shooter who has a number of more established systems to choose from?
They should enjoy those other options while they can.
The convenience focused consumer who abandoned ILCs for phones years ago?
Hmm, I’m pretty convenience focused, and I love my iPhone cameras, but I haven’t abandoned ILCs.
The only other group that seems viable is the brand agnostic enthusiast........ and a $1500 body with F/6.3 lenses seems pretty unappealing compared to other options out there.
Better get your preorder in!
--
Sometimes I take pictures with my gear- https://www.flickr.com/photos/41601371@N00/
 
dmanthree wrote:

The point of RF-S is to be able to identify lenses designed for crop sensors. Nothing more, really. Kind of like Nikon's FX and DX designations. Or whatever they use to differentiate them in the Z mount. Just labeling, nothing more.
The RF-S mount will trigger the crop mode automatically in the FF Canon Cameras. It is label and a switching function.
Right, but by using that label the user knows immediately what to expect. I don't see what the big deal is.
You can use RF-S on FF cameras. They will work properly because the mount signals to to change the field of view to match the lens. I do not think the labeling written on the lens is very important. It is nice the have for FF cameras to adapt to the lens types automatically. Not a huge deal it is nice. I have both EF-S, EF and RF lenses and I sometime using my EF-S lenses on the FF camera. They are cheap small and light lenses in comparison with the others.
 
Any 1 of the 3 would make me happier (and less interested in whether other pastures are greener next year) about M

a bigger EVF, that is like R or Z5 (not RP) sized EVF The R7 has somewhat higher magnification but not higher resolution than M system EVFs The R10 sounds like an M EVF I’d like a little bigger more detailed view for my older eyes

a native compact tele zoom with IS, to 300mm or so More like 100-400RF than 100-400EF

either focus shift/stack or IBIS, the former if useable with m and adapted EF.

only my 2 cents. The in lens IS is pretty good and may be what keeps M bodies nice and compact
 
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Dont get me wrong, the bodies look great and while being a little expensive have all the right specs

But the two RF-S lenses they launched with tell me everything I need to know about this system. I would not buy into RF-S if the lenses you want aren't in the lineup right now, because between
  • Canon's history of crop system lens development (though EF-M was better than people give credit for)
  • The guaranteed smaller user base of RF-S limiting ROI
  • FF RF's overall lens trajectory
  • Canon completely locking down RF from third party companies (no Viltrox, no Sigma, no Tamron, no Samyang to the rescue)
the chances of getting anything beyond these laughably slow kit lenses are slim to none IMO.

These bodies should have been on the EF-M mount, along with 2 enthusiast grade standard zooms (14-80 2.8-4, 15-55 2.8). So now Canon has one crop MILC system with a huge user base and 4-5 pieces of gear from completion that they've given up on, and an all new system with no users, cheap or FF lenses, and questionable future prospects for investment and development.

And while the R7 has the photographic specs of a modern 7D, from what I've seen it's nowhere near as rugged as 7Ds used to be which I imagine will be an issue for wildlife shooters.

What is the point of RF-S?
No point for non Canon EF EF-S RF shooters 😂

--
Manny
Still draft and working towards it - https://www.digitalphoto.work
 
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  • Canon's history of crop system lens development (though EF-M was better than people give credit for)
  • The guaranteed smaller user base of RF-S limiting ROI
  • FF RF's overall lens trajectory
  • Canon completely locking down RF from third party companies (no Viltrox, no Sigma, no Tamron, no Samyang to the rescue)
+1

As a long time Canon APS-C buyer I will not be making the mistake again.

The advantage of the EF line was the huge catalog of cheap and pricey lenses. Sadly, that's not the case with the RF mount. Of course they are better versus their EF counterparts, but way out of my spending budget.

For APS-C mirrorless I went to Nikon (Z50). Love their small and reasonably priced 28mm and 40mm primes.

I ask you again Canon: where's the beef?
Beef?

I have the Canon RF 16 2.8, 35 1.8, 50 1.8, 24-105 4-7.1 & 100-400 5.6-8. All are really good for their price range. Really the only major thing missing from the affordable lenses is an inexpensive UWA zoom. They also make the RP, a $1K FF camera that's very capable.

RF APSC is all of one day old so it's really pointless to gripe about the lack of RF-S APSC lenses at this point (although that won't stop many).

If one wanted to make a quick 3 zoom RF APSC kit one would just buy an R7/10 with one of the kit lenses, an EF-R adapter, and then add a EFS 10-18 & 55-250 both of which can be found really cheap used or for reasonable prices new. Both are very good lenses and would hold one over until their RF counter parts appear.

In reality the only maker to ever really fully support APSC is Fuji and that is because they don't make a FF camera line.

--
Jonathan
 
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nd questionable future prospects for investment and development.

And while the R7 has the photographic specs of a modern 7D, from what I've seen it's nowhere near as rugged as 7Ds used to be which I imagine will be an issue for wildlife shooters.
Has any Canon mirrorless been as rugged as it's DSLR counterpart?
What is the point of RF-S?
Unified mount.

Shared parts bin.

Lower cost.

A lot of reasons really. These cameras are not for me, but I can see the potential with Canon replicating everything over from M.

Designs are butt ugly, so they need to hire a Jon Ivy or someone that takes aesthetics seriously.
 
nd questionable future prospects for investment and development.

And while the R7 has the photographic specs of a modern 7D, from what I've seen it's nowhere near as rugged as 7Ds used to be which I imagine will be an issue for wildlife shooters.
Has any Canon mirrorless been as rugged as it's DSLR counterpart?
Probably more so due to the lack of all the mechanics needed to move the mirror. Just my opinion since there really isn't any data on this.
What is the point of RF-S?
Unified mount.

Shared parts bin.

Lower cost.

A lot of reasons really. These cameras are not for me, but I can see the potential with Canon replicating everything over from M.

Designs are butt ugly, so they need to hire a Jon Ivy or someone that takes aesthetics seriously.
I'll take butt ugly IF it means better performance. But I'm not hopeful for those two kit zooms.
 
The only thing more tiresome than an Ef-m moaner is a 7d mk ii moaner.

I don’t care if Canon ever releases any more rf-s lenses, I will still get an R7.

On the other hand, lots of people said there would never be an RF mount crop camera with all sorts of weighty but completely speculative arguments. And now there are two.

People we’re expecting high prices, but the body only prices are quite tame.

Maybe it’s time for some optimistic speculation. Canon is doing things they never did before. Maybe the next surprise will be RF-S L lenses.
Yes, they are releasing dreadfully slow lenses that are so optically compromised that the corners are black uncorrected and shave off 10%-20% of the resolution when corrected. Or they have a fixed f/11 aperture and can only use centre AF points. That’s the progress we all expected when Canon said the larger RF mount would let them do things they never could before /s.
Well, the RF mount is the same diameter as the EF mount. And if the 14-35 is an example of what a "corrected" lens can do, well, I'm in. It's an excellent lens.
 
sportyaccordy wrote:Who are the customers for RF-S?

Only ones I can think of are wildlife shooters who will use the R7 like a teleconverter. But who else? The disgruntled EF-M shooter whose gear Canon just rendered worthless? The brand agnostic enthusiast crop shooter who has a number of more established systems to choose from? The convenience focused consumer who abandoned ILCs for phones years ago?

The only other group that seems viable is the brand agnostic enthusiast........ and a $1500 body with F/6.3 lenses seems pretty unappealing compared to other options out there.
I've been waiting for Sony to release an aXXXX camera with 10 bit video. (Or a super 35 version of the FX3.) I imagine there are Canon users in the same boat.
Hell, I'd be happy with any APS-C body that could do 10 bit 4K internally. My EOS R could do it, but I wasn't happy with Canon's lens choices. So buying into RF-S would be idiotic for me.
 
I am having difficulty as well understanding who is the customer here. I was excited for rumors suggesting professional camera with crop stacked sensor but it did not materialize. Will wait and see what Fuji presents but the M43 options for wildlife and video look increasingly attractive.
 
The only thing more tiresome than an Ef-m moaner is a 7d mk ii moaner.

I don’t care if Canon ever releases any more rf-s lenses, I will still get an R7.

On the other hand, lots of people said there would never be an RF mount crop camera with all sorts of weighty but completely speculative arguments. And now there are two.

People we’re expecting high prices, but the body only prices are quite tame.

Maybe it’s time for some optimistic speculation. Canon is doing things they never did before. Maybe the next surprise will be RF-S L lenses.
Yes, they are releasing dreadfully slow lenses that are so optically compromised that the corners are black uncorrected and shave off 10%-20% of the resolution when corrected. Or they have a fixed f/11 aperture and can only use centre AF points. That’s the progress we all expected when Canon said the larger RF mount would let them do things they never could before /s.
Yawn.

I can tell by your screen name that you are hangry. After you have something to eat you will feel better and no longer want to troll the Canon forums.
 
I am having difficulty as well understanding who is the customer here. I was excited for rumors suggesting professional camera with crop stacked sensor but it did not materialize. Will wait and see what Fuji presents but the M43 options for wildlife and video look increasingly attractive.
Yes, it is hard to figure out … unless you consider the obvious answer: People who want a crop camera for the RF mount.
 
Dont get me wrong, the bodies look great and while being a little expensive have all the right specs

But the two RF-S lenses they launched with tell me everything I need to know about this system. I would not buy into RF-S if the lenses you want aren't in the lineup right now, because between
  • Canon's history of crop system lens development (though EF-M was better than people give credit for)
  • The guaranteed smaller user base of RF-S limiting ROI
  • FF RF's overall lens trajectory
  • Canon completely locking down RF from third party companies (no Viltrox, no Sigma, no Tamron, no Samyang to the rescue)
the chances of getting anything beyond these laughably slow kit lenses are slim to none IMO.

These bodies should have been on the EF-M mount, along with 2 enthusiast grade standard zooms (14-80 2.8-4, 15-55 2.8). So now Canon has one crop MILC system with a huge user base and 4-5 pieces of gear from completion that they've given up on, and an all new system with no users, cheap or FF lenses, and questionable future prospects for investment and development.

And while the R7 has the photographic specs of a modern 7D, from what I've seen it's nowhere near as rugged as 7Ds used to be which I imagine will be an issue for wildlife shooters.

What is the point of RF-S?
Beats me. Even more bummer I preorded the R7 with 18-150mm here in Canada. The R7 is going to sing and dance with the 100-500. Oh that makes it 800mm I think. And a lovely backup to my R6 + 14-35 and 24-70 all L lenses? No maybe what's the point seriously. It beats me.

--
Manny
Still draft and working towards it - https://www.digitalphoto.work
 
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The only thing more tiresome than an Ef-m moaner is a 7d mk ii moaner.

I don’t care if Canon ever releases any more rf-s lenses, I will still get an R7.

On the other hand, lots of people said there would never be an RF mount crop camera with all sorts of weighty but completely speculative arguments. And now there are two.

People we’re expecting high prices, but the body only prices are quite tame.

Maybe it’s time for some optimistic speculation. Canon is doing things they never did before. Maybe the next surprise will be RF-S L lenses.
Yes, they are releasing dreadfully slow lenses that are so optically compromised that the corners are black uncorrected and shave off 10%-20% of the resolution when corrected. Or they have a fixed f/11 aperture and can only use centre AF points. That’s the progress we all expected when Canon said the larger RF mount would let them do things they never could before /s.
Yawn.

I can tell by your screen name that you are hangry. After you have something to eat you will feel better and no longer want to troll the Canon forums.
I am continuously amazed that people give Canon a pass for charging them more for less, but whatever.
 
The only thing more tiresome than an Ef-m moaner is a 7d mk ii moaner.

I don’t care if Canon ever releases any more rf-s lenses, I will still get an R7.

On the other hand, lots of people said there would never be an RF mount crop camera with all sorts of weighty but completely speculative arguments. And now there are two.

People we’re expecting high prices, but the body only prices are quite tame.

Maybe it’s time for some optimistic speculation. Canon is doing things they never did before. Maybe the next surprise will be RF-S L lenses.
Yes, they are releasing dreadfully slow lenses that are so optically compromised that the corners are black uncorrected and shave off 10%-20% of the resolution when corrected. Or they have a fixed f/11 aperture and can only use centre AF points. That’s the progress we all expected when Canon said the larger RF mount would let them do things they never could before /s.
Yawn.

I can tell by your screen name that you are hangry. After you have something to eat you will feel better and no longer want to troll the Canon forums.
I am continuously amazed that people give Canon a pass for charging them more for less, but whatever.
I want it for free. I am unhappy it's not free.😂
 
I am having difficulty as well understanding who is the customer here. I was excited for rumors suggesting professional camera with crop stacked sensor but it did not materialize. Will wait and see what Fuji presents but the M43 options for wildlife and video look increasingly attractive.
There are two advantages I can see for the Canons over M4/3: AF and IQ. Lenses, well, if they make what you need it ends there. But the combination of an R7 and 100-500 RF L lens for sports and wildlife looks really tempting.
 
Dont get me wrong, the bodies look great and while being a little expensive have all the right specs

But the two RF-S lenses they launched with tell me everything I need to know about this system. I would not buy into RF-S if the lenses you want aren't in the lineup right now, because between
  • Canon's history of crop system lens development (though EF-M was better than people give credit for)
  • The guaranteed smaller user base of RF-S limiting ROI
  • FF RF's overall lens trajectory
  • Canon completely locking down RF from third party companies (no Viltrox, no Sigma, no Tamron, no Samyang to the rescue)
the chances of getting anything beyond these laughably slow kit lenses are slim to none IMO.

These bodies should have been on the EF-M mount, along with 2 enthusiast grade standard zooms (14-80 2.8-4, 15-55 2.8). So now Canon has one crop MILC system with a huge user base and 4-5 pieces of gear from completion that they've given up on, and an all new system with no users, cheap or FF lenses, and questionable future prospects for investment and development.

And while the R7 has the photographic specs of a modern 7D, from what I've seen it's nowhere near as rugged as 7Ds used to be which I imagine will be an issue for wildlife shooters.

What is the point of RF-S?
Beats me. Even more bummer I preorded the R7 with 18-150mm here in Canada. The R7 is going to sing and dance with the 100-500. Oh that makes it 800mm I think. And a lovely backup to my R6 + 14-35 and 24-70 all L lenses? No maybe what's the point seriously. It beats me.
I can see the point of RF-S lenses *if* the quality is there, and they are small and light. Not everyone needs to lug around lenses designed for a FF sensor.
 
Dont get me wrong, the bodies look great and while being a little expensive have all the right specs

But the two RF-S lenses they launched with tell me everything I need to know about this system. I would not buy into RF-S if the lenses you want aren't in the lineup right now, because between
  • Canon's history of crop system lens development (though EF-M was better than people give credit for)
  • The guaranteed smaller user base of RF-S limiting ROI
  • FF RF's overall lens trajectory
  • Canon completely locking down RF from third party companies (no Viltrox, no Sigma, no Tamron, no Samyang to the rescue)
the chances of getting anything beyond these laughably slow kit lenses are slim to none IMO.

These bodies should have been on the EF-M mount, along with 2 enthusiast grade standard zooms (14-80 2.8-4, 15-55 2.8). So now Canon has one crop MILC system with a huge user base and 4-5 pieces of gear from completion that they've given up on, and an all new system with no users, cheap or FF lenses, and questionable future prospects for investment and development.

And while the R7 has the photographic specs of a modern 7D, from what I've seen it's nowhere near as rugged as 7Ds used to be which I imagine will be an issue for wildlife shooters.

What is the point of RF-S?
Beats me. Even more bummer I preorded the R7 with 18-150mm here in Canada. The R7 is going to sing and dance with the 100-500. Oh that makes it 800mm I think. And a lovely backup to my R6 + 14-35 and 24-70 all L lenses? No maybe what's the point seriously. It beats me.
I can see the point of RF-S lenses *if* the quality is there, and they are small and light. Not everyone needs to lug around lenses designed for a FF sensor.
 

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