Increasing the ISO is a contributory cause of increased noise

I do not think that this is a linguistic problem. The question is not clear/well posed. As such, it allows for different implicit assumptions leading to different answers.
Yes, the assumptions are always different, and often not understood. The trick is to pose the question well, and to do so in a way that make the limits clear and always leads to correct conclusions.

Maybe the word "cause" should be removed from the conversation. Maybe it's better to say what happens if certain actions are taken (and make sure to state all of the conditions), instead of saying that increasing ISO causes....
 
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The digital sensor chip converts feeble levels of light energy to electrical charges which are weak and thus need amplificon. Each photosite has an amplifier and the expectation is, all will work at the same efficiency. This is not the case. Different efficiencies induce what we call fixed pattern noise. Image noise is the counterpart of static in an audio circuit. In other words, there is always present some bad signal intermixed with the good.
You were good up to here, though pointing out that the majority of noise is caused by variation in the light itself may have been an improvement.
The ratio of good to bad is made worse when we up the ISO so we can image under feeble light conditions.
What is the mechanism by which this ratio changes? Increasing the amplification does not make the ratio worse, It makes the ratio better. That's because all of the signal but only most of the noise is amplified.

Now if the user manually increases the ISO setting in an auto-exposure mode, the camera will reduce the exposure, by either speeding up the shutter or narrowing the aperture (and sometimes a bit of both). The reduction in exposure reduces the top part of the good to bad ratio - you are capturing less good light - and that's why the image becomes noisier.

However, if the user manually increases the ISO setting when not in an autoexposure mode the camera does not change the exposure. All the good and any bad added before the amplifier is amplified, and any bad added after the amplifier is not amplified. As a result, the good:bad ratio improves.
We are forced to up the gain of the image sensor by turning up the ISO. Now the ratio of bad signal increases
No, increasing amplification doesn't make the ratio worse.
-- thus the introduction of unwanted image artifacts.
The increase in noisiness associated with use of amplification actually comes from the lower exposure that prompted the use of the higher amplification. See this post for some associated math.
 
Way too complicated. Seriously, a lot of people understand nothing beyond elementary school arithmetic -- if that. Keep it simple.
 
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There is an argument raging in another thread (in the Beginners Questions forum!) about whether or not increasing the ISO causes noise to increase.

As I see it, the disagreement essentially revolves around the meaning of the word "causes".

Some people appear to think that a cause must be a sufficient cause for it to called a cause. Others (including me) think that a contributory cause may also be called a cause.

Philosophers of causality distinguish between necessary causes, sufficient causes and contributory (or partial) causes. A contributory cause is neither necessary nor sufficient. It is sufficient only if other conditions hold as well.

Increasing the ISO is a contributory cause of increased noise because if various other conditions hold (such as the camera being in an auto-exposure mode), then increasing the ISO causes a decrease in exposure which in turn causes fewer photons to be collected by the sensor, which in turn causes an increase in the noise (relative to the signal).

What is your opinion on this matter?
ISO is normally related to analog gain on sensor.

Increasing gain means the electric signal generated by the conversion of light into electrons is amplified. Amplification generally improves SNR however at the same time amplification means that the maximum level of signal can reach a level that is out of scale.

Generally the level of SNR improvement from the signal amplification is less than the loss of maximum signal the amplification generates so ultimately the image quality drops

However if you have a weak signal far from reaching the maximum you can amplify up to that point and have an improvement in SNR

So in short you can push it up until the points it clips and the outcome is an improvement. This is the reason why keeping the ISO low and then increasing brightness in post is worse than increasing ISO in the first place (as long as you did not clip)

In a way the idea of ETTR works also with ISO although ISO is strictly speaking not part of the exposure which is purely made by exposure time and lens aperture
 
Aw, come on, Tom, don't get into that. We all know the answers here.

1. Increasing the ISO setting usually decreases the read noise , here compared with actual physical units. (It's a mistake to compare read noise in DN units because the numbers are scaled by a different factor at every ISO setting! Furthermore, they may be scaled differently for every camera.)

2.Increasing ISO setting causes the exposure to decrease in automatic exposure modes, and causes the meter to recommends reduced exposure in manual mode.

3. Decreasing exposure decreases shot noise, but causes a noisier image (lower S/N), because of an unfortunate quirk in terminology.
Yes, I agree, people here do know those answers.

I am sorry I wasn't clearer, but my intention was to start a discussion about when it is ok to say that A causes B, about the language we use.
Let me try to scrape the tar off and address that question.

For the purposes of this discussion I am accepting your earlier proposition of the concept of a contributory cause.

I'd say it was OK to say that "A causes B" when A always causes B.

If A sometimes causes B and sometimes has no effect, then a better statement would be that "A sometimes causes B". Better still would be "A causes B under conditions (1, 2, 3, ...)"

If A sometimes causes B and the rest of the time causes (not B), then one could state that "A sometimes causes B and sometimes causes (not B)". Better would be to say "A causes B under condition 1, otherwise A causes (not B)". I'd suggest this is the case with increases of ISO setting when we accept contributory causes.

While "A causes B under condition 1" is true on its own in the latter situation, it is not a sufficient instructional statement. It fails to tell what happens under condition (not 1). People unaware of the effect of A under condition (not 1) might eventually forget to include citation of condition 1 and fall into thinking "A causes B" full stop.

In that other discussion, my objection to "higher ISO causes more noise" was not centred on the issue of whether manual adjustment of ISO setting in an autoexposure mode "caused" a noisier image. My prime objection is that we didn't have an "A causes B" situation. We had a "A causes B under condition 1 and otherwise causes (not B)" situation that was being described as "A causes B".

A second objection is the "more noise" rather than "noisier image" or "lower SNR" problem.

Whether "causes" or "results in" or similar terms were appropriate is only of tertiary concern to me. I happen to think it is important not to obscure attribution of increased noisiness to reduced exposure, and worry about saying "Manually increasing the ISO setting in a autoexposure mode causes a noisier image, and otherwise may slightly reduce image noisiness". If one accepts contributory causes, the statement is correct but does obscure that important connection with exposure. But as I said, that was of lesser concern than flat out saying that an increase in the ISO setting (effectively always) creates more noise, when in most settings combinations it does not.
However, almost all the replies seem to ignore that question and want to return to the discussion about ISO and noise that we have had many times before. I am not going to join in to that discussion.
 
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I noted your interest in the "cause"

Being in a big corporation, I have had my fill of jargon of "root cause analysis,Ishikawa diagrams, Five Whys, Failure Mode Effects Analysis. Pareto Analysis, Fault Tree Analysis, Event correlation." None of it ever seems to change how we work as engineers but it does change how we interact with other groups in the organization.

I can share that in business speak, submitting a root cause to the quality department, the people over there are not looking for anything more complicated than "the picture was grainy becaus the operator set the ISO too high" And then there might be some work put into what can we do to help the the operator from making that mistake again. Confusing controls and lack of feedback could be additional root causes. We are allowed to have more than one root cause.
 
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Unfortunately, many novice photograhers and even a fair number of experienced photograhers, believe a change to ISO directly affects exposure. It's a misunderstanding that limits a person's ability to get the most from their camera and their photo processing & editing app of choice.

It's good to have options. Understanding that image lightness can be managed in the field using ISO or with image processing tools at home and that either approach wil be equally effective, is incredibly liberating. It empowers a photograher with more options.

This is why I try to consistently distinguish between exposure settings (f-stop and shutter speed) and ISO, especially when posting in the Beginners Questions forum. I believe we have a responsibility to be accurate and instructive when answering questions about core concepts in photography.

In my opinion, it's a slippery slope to describe ISO as a contributing cause of change to exposure. A novice is likely to interpret that as confirming the mistaken belief that the ISO setting directly affects exposure. It also leads to a conundrum of explaining that a change to ISO, alone, does not change exposure. Now, the novice has been told that ISO is and isn't an exposure setting. In that moment of confusion, where do they turn...but to a pleasingly designed exposure triangle graphic that thoroughly drives home the mistaken belief that ISO directly affects exposure.

--
Bill Ferris Photography
Flagstaff, AZ
http://www.billferris.photoshelter.com
 
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There is an argument raging in another thread (in the Beginners Questions forum!) about whether or not increasing the ISO causes noise to increase.

As I see it, the disagreement essentially revolves around the meaning of the word "causes".

Some people appear to think that a cause must be a sufficient cause for it to called a cause. Others (including me) think that a contributory cause may also be called a cause.

Philosophers of causality distinguish between necessary causes, sufficient causes and contributory (or partial) causes. A contributory cause is neither necessary nor sufficient. It is sufficient only if other conditions hold as well.

Increasing the ISO is a contributory cause of increased noise because if various other conditions hold (such as the camera being in an auto-exposure mode), then increasing the ISO causes a decrease in exposure which in turn causes fewer photons to be collected by the sensor, which in turn causes an increase in the noise (relative to the signal).

What is your opinion on this matter?
Increasing the ISO is a Direct cause of increased noise...Along with other things also being an Direct cause of increased noise. Whether or not a given Camera engages in some other ways of dealing with NR as some apparently complain about built in NR of Canon products compared to Sony or Nikon is another Rabbit Hole.

I shoot RAW an in Manual Mode for all my cameras that allow it. I also prefer manual focus of an good lens as opposed to AF because I like to control exactly what's in focus as opposed the Camera many times. But excellent AF is needed for those certain moments. I also shoot1 FPS regardless of how fast any of my cameras can shoot.

Here's an analogy. In the automotive World, there are certain speeds where one can obtain the highest MPG. Exceed that speed then Gas mileage suffers as it becomes far more obvious the faster you exceed that optimum point. Ditto for the camera and ISO.

As I stated previously in another thread, I believe the biggest problem is when does it become obvious to some when that is happening. With the Base ISO being the optimum point. Compensation for the negative outcomes of increasing the ISO does not change the fact that increasing it, does actually increases Noise. When I am rolling down a Hill, my speed can hit extremes while my MPG will increase greatly. None of that changes the fact about the optimum point for best MPG otherwise. Ditto for the camera and ISO and Noise.
 
When teaching students, my experience has been that students are not like computers; they do not hang on every word I say and interpret each word exactly and precisely like a computer processes a computer program.

With beginners, after telling them the way they can use ISO to change how they choose shutter speed and aperture, I think it would be perfectly ok to say something like:

"As a general rule, whenever you increase the ISO, there is a penalty to pay in reduced image quality [then show some examples of low ISO and high ISO images and maybe introduce the term "noise"]. As with all good rules, however, there are some exceptions. These exceptions are rare and we will ignore them for the time being."

I think it is guaranteed that you will be labelled as a boring teacher if you try to explain all the exceptions whenever you introduce a new rule. And students learn less from boring teachers and that is often why they misapply the rules.
 
Unfortunately, many novice photograhers and even a fair number of experienced photograhers, believe a change to ISO directly affects exposure. It's a misunderstanding that limits a person's ability to get the most from their camera and their photo processing & editing app of choice.
I agree, but I think that belief may be the result of poor teaching in the first place. Any suggestion that changing ISO directly affects exposure is wrong. Just as it is wrong to suggest that changing ISO directly affects noise.

However, I think it is perfectly ok to tell beginners that, as a general rule, photos taken at high ISO have less exposure and more noise than photos taken at low ISO. It is sensible to add that there are exceptions to the rule, but the rule is true for the great majority of photographs.

It is equally sensible to tell beginners, who have just started to experiment with the ISO setting on their cameras, that, as a general rule, setting a high ISO will lead to poorer image quality than setting a low ISO. Again, point out that there are exceptions, but they are rare.

At a later stage in a photographer's development it makes sense to go into more detail about the science of digital photography. [Unless the photographer has a good scientific or technical background, it which case the scientific detail can be included at the beginning,]
It's good to have options. Understanding that image lightness can be managed in the field using ISO or with image processing tools at home and that either approach wil be equally effective, is incredibly liberating. It empowers a photograher with more options.

This is why I try to consistently distinguish between exposure settings (f-stop and shutter speed) and ISO, especially when posting in the Beginners Questions forum. I believe we have a responsibility to be accurate and instructive when answering questions about core concepts in photography.

In my opinion, it's a slippery slope to describe ISO as a contributing cause of change to exposure. A novice is likely to interpret that as confirming the mistaken belief that the ISO setting directly affects exposure. It also leads to a conundrum of explaining that a change to ISO, alone, does not change exposure. Now, the novice has been told that ISO is and isn't an exposure setting. In that moment of confusion, where do they turn...but to a pleasingly designed exposure triangle graphic that thoroughly drives home the mistaken belief that ISO directly affects exposure.
Poor teaching leads to poor understanding.
 
Unfortunately, many novice photograhers and even a fair number of experienced photograhers, believe a change to ISO directly affects exposure. It's a misunderstanding that limits a person's ability to get the most from their camera and their photo processing & editing app of choice.
I agree, but I think that belief may be the result of poor teaching in the first place. Any suggestion that changing ISO directly affects exposure is wrong. Just as it is wrong to suggest that changing ISO directly affects noise.

However, I think it is perfectly ok to tell beginners that, as a general rule, photos taken at high ISO have less exposure and more noise than photos taken at low ISO. It is sensible to add that there are exceptions to the rule, but the rule is true for the great majority of photographs.
Hopefully, it will come as no surprise that I agree with you about poor teaching being at the center of misunderstandings about what exposure is, and how changes to exposure directly affect SNR and the visibility of shot noise. While I also agree that there is a strong correlation between increasing ISO and the visibility of shot noise, I will respectfully suggest it is good to pair the sharing of that info - especially with beginning photographers - with a comment to the effect that there's also a strong correlation between the use of high ISOs and with scene brightness being low. A reduced scene brightness directly results in shot noise becoming easier to see in photos.
It is equally sensible to tell beginners, who have just started to experiment with the ISO setting on their cameras, that, as a general rule, setting a high ISO will lead to poorer image quality than setting a low ISO. Again, point out that there are exceptions, but they are rare.
I would recommend adding to this that use of a low ISO is made possible by increasing the lens aperture or exposure time to put more light on the sensor. The more light we put on the sensor - without blowing out important highlights - the better image quality tends to be.
At a later stage in a photographer's development it makes sense to go into more detail about the science of digital photography. [Unless the photographer has a good scientific or technical background, it which case the scientific detail can be included at the beginning,]
It's good to have options. Understanding that image lightness can be managed in the field using ISO or with image processing tools at home and that either approach wil be equally effective, is incredibly liberating. It empowers a photograher with more options.

This is why I try to consistently distinguish between exposure settings (f-stop and shutter speed) and ISO, especially when posting in the Beginners Questions forum. I believe we have a responsibility to be accurate and instructive when answering questions about core concepts in photography.

In my opinion, it's a slippery slope to describe ISO as a contributing cause of change to exposure. A novice is likely to interpret that as confirming the mistaken belief that the ISO setting directly affects exposure. It also leads to a conundrum of explaining that a change to ISO, alone, does not change exposure. Now, the novice has been told that ISO is and isn't an exposure setting. In that moment of confusion, where do they turn...but to a pleasingly designed exposure triangle graphic that thoroughly drives home the mistaken belief that ISO directly affects exposure.
Poor teaching leads to poor understanding.
The additions I recommend are for the purpose of providing a fuller context for understanding.

Tom, I respect you and your contributions to the forums. Thank you for starting this thread and opening a dialog to help folks understand each other's perspectives and, hopefully, become better communicators or teachers when discussing these topics.
 
... a response that seems somewhat of a non-sequitur from the post of yours to which I responded, and to the OP. In those you talked about the meaning of the word "causes", philosophers of causality, and a discussion about when it is ok to say that A causes B, about the language we use.

I tried to meet you at your own level and address the question which you purported to want input on. I gave you a response that dealt specifically with the semantic issues you raised. You have chosen not to directly address anything I said. You don't seem to have liked where that discussion was headed. Instead, you seem to have shifted from semantics to effective teaching. Without saying so in so many words, your response seems to amount to "saying 'A causes B under condition 1 and causes (not B), otherwise' is too complex for students to grasp, so we should tell them 'Generally A causes B. There are a few rare exceptions that we'll deal with later.'"

So you want to shift the field of discussion from semantics to effective pedagogy. OK, I'll accommodate you again. Your approach is setting student up for failure at the point where they encounter those exceptions. By then, the students have entrenched a fundamentally wrong conceptual model. To make sense of the exceptions, the successful student will have to throw out the model you have been building to that point and replace it with a different one. That is an inefficient way to teach, and prone to greater failure.

When B is "greater image noisiness", the correct general statement of causation is "C causes B", where C is "decreased exposure". No need to resort to "contributory causes". No need to deal with exceptions which you will relegate to dealing with at some unspecified time. Dealing with exceptions later destabilizes conceptual models. "C causes B" has more simplicity and is therefor easier for students to grasp than your proposal. And it has no exceptions, so there is no need for a later radical adjustment to the conceptual model.
When teaching students,
Do you actually have formal training in pedagogy? What you have written here doesn't sound to me like you do.

For ten years I held a position in which I was responsible for the quality of education received by tens of thousands of students. You can be sure that during that time I had more professional upgrading in pedagogical method than did the average teacher. I consulted with leading national experts from several different countries. I wasn't limited to instruction received at just one average teacher's college.

Ysarex and bobn2 both taught at the post-secondary level, and both seem convinced of the importance of emphasizing the relationship between noise and exposure. Both have also talked about the damage done when students have to adjust their conceptual model from an early-formed incorrect model to a different model later on.
my experience has been that students are not like computers; they do not hang on every word I say and interpret each word exactly and precisely like a computer processes a computer program.
Some will, some won't. All will start to build a conceptual model as they take in whatever words they do pay attention to.
With beginners, after telling them the way they can use ISO to change how they choose shutter speed and aperture,
I think that is a backwards way to look at ISO that is just perpetuating a film-centric approach to understanding camera-controls. ISO is not a noise control or an exposure control. It is a lightness control, and it's use ought to be taught in that context.
I think it would be perfectly ok to say something like:

"As a general rule, whenever you increase the ISO, there is a penalty to pay in reduced image quality [then show some examples of low ISO and high ISO images and maybe introduce the term "noise"]. As with all good rules, however, there are some exceptions. These exceptions are rare and we will ignore them for the time being."
And I think that's a lousy way to instruct beginners because it implants at the beginning of the formation of their internal conceptual models that the primary association of noise is with ISO, rather than that noise is primarily and causally associated with exposure. The time to introduce "noise" is when you are explaining exposure, not when you are explaining ISO. That's because it is exposure that is the primary factor affecting the noisiness of an image. This also means you don't have to deal later with the rare exceptions that overturn your general layout of the conceptual model because, unlike the non-causal relationship of ISO to noisiness, there are no exceptions to the causal relationship between exposure and noisiness.
I think it is guaranteed that you will be labelled as a boring teacher if you try to explain all the exceptions whenever you introduce a new rule.
So the choice is to either leave the exceptions to later while initially forming an incorrect conceptual model, or to teach something where there actually are no exceptions.
And students learn less from boring teachers and that is often why they misapply the rules.
The problem is, in your approach, you haven't actually taught them the rule. Instead of a rule incorporating direct causation, you have taught them a non-causal correlation that only holds under specific conditions, and you have failed to describe what happens when those conditions do not apply. That's not a rule.
 
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Bill, I think we are very largely in agreement!

We may sometimes put the emphasis in different places, but I am not going to get worked up over that.

:-)
 
If I was teaching a university course on photography, then I think your approach has merit.

If I was giving an informal tutorial to the average beginning photographer wanting to know (with minimal effort) how to use a "proper" camera rather than just a point and shoot phone camera, then I think a less formal and rigorous approach is much more appropriate. It is also likely to be much more effective with those who lack any scientific/technical background.
 
When teaching students, my experience has been that students are not like computers; they do not hang on every word I say and interpret each word exactly and precisely like a computer processes a computer program.

With beginners, after telling them the way they can use ISO to change how they choose shutter speed and aperture, I think it would be perfectly ok to say something like:

"As a general rule, whenever you increase the ISO, there is a penalty to pay in reduced image quality [then show some examples of low ISO and high ISO images and maybe introduce the term "noise"]. As with all good rules, however, there are some exceptions. These exceptions are rare and we will ignore them for the time being."

I think it is guaranteed that you will be labelled as a boring teacher if you try to explain all the exceptions whenever you introduce a new rule. And students learn less from boring teachers and that is often why they misapply the rules.
I suggest that you tell them instead that reducing the exposure increases noise, and that increasing the ISO causes reduced exposure unless you override auto exposure.
 
So the choice is to either leave the exceptions to later while initially forming an incorrect conceptual model, or to teach something where there actually are no exceptions.
Teach them something where there are no exceptions. Yes!

It's fair to mention that it's always true, but they need to be careful about applying this, because there are some counterintuitive implications that will be dealt with later.
 
If I was teaching a university course on photography, then I think your approach has merit.

If I was giving an informal tutorial to the average beginning photographer wanting to know (with minimal effort) how to use a "proper" camera rather than just a point and shoot phone camera, then I think a less formal and rigorous approach is much more appropriate. It is also likely to be much more effective with those who lack any scientific/technical background.
No. Keep it simple but correct without exceptions. So you tell them that reduced exposure always causes increased noise, and that increasing the ISO setting reduces the exposure in auto exposure mode. Before that, make sure they know that the amount of light on the sensor is synonymous with exposure. Simple, easily understood, and always correct.

There are at least three concepts here: definition and control of exposure; control of metering with ISO setting; and noise. Do not introduce them all at once. Students learn one point at a time, and they should understand each fairly thoroughly before introducing the next.
 
If I was teaching a university course on photography, then I think your approach has merit.

If I was giving an informal tutorial to the average beginning photographer wanting to know (with minimal effort) how to use a "proper" camera rather than just a point and shoot phone camera, then I think a less formal and rigorous approach is much more appropriate. It is also likely to be much more effective with those who lack any scientific/technical background.
Sure, but there is still no need to introduce discussion of noise in the context of ISO. I wouldn't address noise or image lightness at all at first. I'd rely on the camera's autoexposure system to provide appropriate lightness.

If I was just casually introducing a novice user to a system camera, I'd show them things like the effect of changing focal length on a zoom lens, and contrast that with the effect of changing subject distance. I'd show them DOF control with the aperture. If we had an appropriate subject, I'd show them motion blur control with the shutter speed.

When noise eventually did come up, I'd make sure to explain it in the context of discussing exposure or amount of light captured. I'd show them how the situation or settings resulted in less light capture and therefore a noisier image.
 
Hi,

And what if all the people pretending that increasing ISO increases Noise were correct in fact ? :-)

Simple quesiton: Does Noise correspond to N in SNR ?


Looks like N is Noise. This means that Noise implicitely is absolute noise, otherwise they would have had to write "absolute noise".

That said , if you look at definitions of Noise, it is mostly the relative noise (relative to signal) that is described.

I think there is an ambiguity anyway. I can also consider that iamplifying a sound increases noise. I just mean again that this is a bit ambiguous.

Somebody at dpreview had suggested to use the word noisiness instead, I think it is better personnally.
 
There is an argument raging in another thread (in the Beginners Questions forum!) about whether or not increasing the ISO causes noise to increase.

As I see it, the disagreement essentially revolves around the meaning of the word "causes".

Some people appear to think that a cause must be a sufficient cause for it to called a cause. Others (including me) think that a contributory cause may also be called a cause.

Philosophers of causality distinguish between necessary causes, sufficient causes and contributory (or partial) causes. A contributory cause is neither necessary nor sufficient. It is sufficient only if other conditions hold as well.

Increasing the ISO is a contributory cause of increased noise because if various other conditions hold (such as the camera being in an auto-exposure mode), then increasing the ISO causes a decrease in exposure which in turn causes fewer photons to be collected by the sensor, which in turn causes an increase in the noise (relative to the signal).

What is your opinion on this matter?
Actually, it causes noise to decrease. It indirectly causes the ratio of noise to signal to increase (or SNR to decrease).

Even this is only true under the condition that image lightness is maintained and integration time is not long enough to create dark noise.
Actually, in this case, the (standard deviation of the) noise increases with the ISO, assuming that the higher ISO forces us to lower the exposure.
The standard deviation of the input noise (other than read noise) decreases as exposure decreases. Shot noise = sqrt(signal), PRNU = k*signal.

The standard deviation of output pixels only increases when lightness is equalised because SNR is lower, but it also depends on processing and other factors that have nothing to do with ISO, like resizing.

Nor does ISO correlate directly to an increase in output referred noise unless the ISO amplifier is being used to add voltage gain to the signal and the ADC is clipping that signal, which is not always the case. In many cases, the lightness adjustment is applied later during digital processing.

--
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
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