Suggestions for first proper underwater camera?

Hi Drusus,

UW photography is fun, but does not come cheap. Maybe a second hand setup (as far as I know Canon GX7II and Sony RX100 are good compacts)?

I have several books on UW-photography, but the standard book is:


=> excellent both for beginners as well as advanced ones...

Wolfgang

P.S.: Here a link to Wetpixel - a recent video on compact camera selection (I did not watch it, so can not say wheter it is really good): https://wetpixel.com/articles/wetpixel-live-compact-camera-choices

drusus said:

My relative has expressed interest in mirrorless cameras and underwater housings. Do you have any recommendations for a compact entry-level system that is a step up from Olympus TG but will not be a big financial commitment?

Click to expand...

Not unless you score a great deal on a used kit. Nothing about underwater photography is cheap.

drusus said:

Camera, lens, housing, optional lights. Or is there such a thing as a digital underwater camera, like a digital Nikonos?

Click to expand...

No, dedicated underwater cameras top out on TG-6. There was Nikon AW1, but it was never successful and has been discontinued. Technically there is a digital Nikonos, but you can't get one - in the late 90s, Kodak rebuilt a number of Nikonos RS film SLRs into DSLRs with the addition of a digital back; this was done for the US Navy and has never been available commercially.

drusus said:

One more thing. My relative has the use one one hand instead of two. If there is a system that, for whatever reason, is easier to use one-handed, that would be preferable. Certainly the preference is for a compact system. For example, if lighting is a must (is it?), a light built into the housing would be preferable to a pair of lights on attached arms.

Click to expand...

This is not really workable, at least not for wide-angle. Any light located close to the camera will generate significant backscatter - there is a reason why everyone is using arms to carry their lights/strobes. Macro is more forgiving; if you're willing to forgo creative lighting methods (backlighting, inward lighting, etc) you can get away with a single light or a strobe mounted on top a handle without arms.

drusus said:

Another question: ido you have recommendations for an introductory book to underwater photography that I could get her as a gift?

Drusus

Click to expand...

Martin Edge, The Underwater Photographer. Alex Mustard, Underwater Photography Masterclass.

Regarding mirrorless cameras - there are many of them on the market now, they can be classified by sensor sizes. There's micro four thirds, represented by Olympus and Panasonic, APS-C, with entries by Sony, Fujifilm, Canon and Nikon, full frame, with offerings from Canon, Nikon, Sony and Panasonic, and medium format that is currently offered only by Fujifilm. Counter-intuitively, medium format is bigger than full-frame, while APS-C is 1.5x smaller than full-frame (half the sensor area), and micro four thirds is 2x smaller (quarter the sensor area). With each jump in sensor size, you need bigger housings, bigger lenses, and most importantly when shooting wide-angle, bigger ports. The 230-250mm domes used by full-frame cameras with wide-angle lenses are truly monstrous, but none of them are small. There are some relative outliers, like the Sony A7C which is remarkably compact for a full-frame camera, or Panasonic GH5/GH6, which are quite chunky for micro four thirds, but I would hesitate to recommend any of them for one-handed use. Bulk aside, I simply cannot imagine manipulating all the controls underwater with just one hand.

One option that might possibly work out for one-handed operation, though, is a housed phone. Kraken/Weefine Smart Housing, SeaLife Sport Diver, Easydive Leo3 Smart, they all feature controls that can, for the most part, be manipulated with just the right hand while keeping hold of the housing. The main weakness of this kind of setup is the inability to sync with strobes. On the other hand, modern phones do a lot of computational photography, and despite the tiny lenses, the output quality tends to be quite decent.

Architeuthis said:

Hi Drusus,

UW photography is fun, but does not come cheap. Maybe a second hand setup (as far as I know Canon GX7II and Sony RX100 are good compacts)?

I have several books on UW-photography, but the standard book is:

https://www.amazon.com/Underwater-Photography-Masterclass-Alex-Mustard/dp/1781452229

=> excellent both for beginners as well as advanced ones...

Wolfgang

P.S.: Here a link to Wetpixel - a recent video on compact camera selection (I did not watch it, so can not say wheter it is really good): https://wetpixel.com/articles/wetpixel-live-compact-camera-choices

Click to expand...

Thank you, Architeuthis!

drusus said:

My relative has expressed interest in mirrorless cameras and underwater housings. Do you have any recommendations for a compact entry-level system that is a step up from Olympus TG but will not be a big financial commitment? Camera, lens, housing, optional lights. Or is there such a thing as a digital underwater camera, like a digital Nikonos?

Click to expand...

There are a lot of threads here with this same general question, so you should scroll down and read a bit.

I can offer a GREAT deal on two Nik V cameras. Bought them from someone a decade ago, never seen the water. Semi serious - sure I'll sell them, but not the best candidate for a freediving photographer.

drusus said:

One more thing. My relative has the use one one hand instead of two. If there is a system that, for whatever reason, is easier to use one-handed, that would be preferable. Certainly the preference is for a compact system. For example, if lighting is a must (is it?), a light built into the housing would be preferable to a pair of lights on attached arms. Water clarity would range from the clear Caribbean waters of Tulum, Mexico, to the not-so-clear Eastern Pacific waters of San Diego, California.

Click to expand...

So freediving + one hand presents conflicting challenges. But if her intent is focused on wide angle targets in the mid depths (20m?), then a housed 4/3rds with an 8mm fisheye in the 4.33" dome using ambient lighting would be highly manageable and would only need the right hand grip. She could rest the camera on her back as she dives, shielding it from a lot of the current/drag. The exposure settings variation is pretty controllable as well.

Wetpixel's classifieds (or Scubaboard) will have older 4/3rds systems available for people who have upgraded. The price drop is pretty substantial from new. For a freediver, I think the vacuum port is pretty important as it will be going through a lot of pressure changes, whereas the scuba diver only subjects it to a handful per dive.

Is it the left hand that she doesn't have? Hopefully, since most cameras are right hand triggers. And is it just the hand she doesn't have, or the forearm, or all? A forearm with no hand could still be used to brace. No arm may mean it's better to keep the housing negative but attached to her so she can brace with the one hand.

https://www.thedigitalshootout.com/ - this is in Bonaire in 2 months and I believe would offer the potential to have a lot of demo gear coupled with some of the most knowledgeable salesfolk (Backscatter) in the nation/world. They would also have the most experience with scenarios like her's.

Though this represents the cost of a mid range dive trip, the ability to try out many choices as well as iterate each day on the rigging gives a high probability of finding the most viable upgrade without a lot of costly mistakes or compromises.

Much cheaper, depending on where she is, is to go to a major dive expo where the manufacturers and big vendors like Backscatter, Bluewater, Reefphoto attend. She wouldn't be able to get in the water to experiment, but she could at least get their advice and see/touch the gear. The biggest one I know is in Long Beach, CA, on May 14th and 15th.

drusus said:

She has become a serious amateur free diver

Click to expand...

personal curiousity - how did she get there? I've got over 900 dives, but am a terrible free diver and I'm looking to take a trip soon that does instruction for it, though I suspect/fear it will take more than a 2 or 3 day seminar.

How deep is she normally going, and where does she max?

kelpdiver said:

https://www.thedigitalshootout.com/ - this is in Bonaire in 2 months and I believe would offer the potential to have a lot of demo gear coupled with some of the most knowledgeable salesfolk (Backscatter) in the nation/world. They would also have the most experience with scenarios like her's.

Click to expand...

I just signed up for this.

kelpdiver said:

Though this represents the cost of a mid range dive trip, the ability to try out many choices as well as iterate each day on the rigging gives a high probability of finding the most viable upgrade without a lot of costly mistakes or compromises.

Click to expand...

Sounds interesting to me. I bought my DSLR underwater rig (D810 in Nauticam) in late 2015, and in 150+ dives since, I've never yet had someone else with a DSLR rig to dive with. In fact I've never even seen another big rig, period.

kelpdiver said:

Much cheaper, depending on where she is, is to go to a major dive expo where the manufacturers and big vendors like Backscatter, Bluewater, Reefphoto attend. She wouldn't be able to get in the water to experiment, but she could at least get their advice and see/touch the gear. The biggest one I know is in Long Beach, CA, on May 14th and 15th.

Click to expand...

Good to know.

As others have said, there isn't much past a TG6 that doesn't involve a huge jump in size and money. The point-n-shoot market collapsed with cell phones and took almost that whole class of products with it.

Besides a TG6, maybe an RX100 in a housing, or a Canon Powershot G7.

If you want a serious camera for underwater use, it needs to shoot RAW mode.

All these point-n-shoot models are going to have some AF deficiencies compared to DSLR's and new mirrorless. However, they might have better video AF than a lot of DSLR's, including my Nikon D850.

Use of one arm could be a huge limiting factor. For sure I see trouble with strobes, so probably best to shoot ambient.

Here is the size of an RX100 II in a Nauticam housing from 2014.







--
Phoenix Arizona Craig
www.cjcphoto.net
"I miss the days when I was nostalgic."

Thank you everyone for incredibly useful replies.

Re: Kelpdiver's questions: it is indeed the right hand that she can use, and the left upper arm works for bracing. But I was personally ignorant of whether strobes are actually necessary. It sounds like ambient light is definitely an option. I don't know the answers to your other questions.

The photo of the RX100 in a housing was very useful. It sounds like shooting ambient light with a Canon GX7 or Sony RX100 in a housing might be a good next step, as well as the suggestion to attend an expo and consider buying used.

Thanks again.

drusus said:

Thank you everyone for incredibly useful replies.

Re: Kelpdiver's questions: it is indeed the right hand that she can use, and the left upper arm works for bracing. But I was personally ignorant of whether strobes are actually necessary. It sounds like ambient light is definitely an option. I don't know the answers to your other questions.

The photo of the RX100 in a housing was very useful. It sounds like shooting ambient light with a Canon GX7 or Sony RX100 in a housing might be a good next step, as well as the suggestion to attend an expo and consider buying used.

Click to expand...

Ambient lighting works better the bigger the sensor. The TG6 is the tiny 1/2.3". Going to the 1" of the GX7 or RX improves a good bit. Panasonic has made two generations of a compact ( LX100) with a 4/3rds sensor, though this does impose some limitations on zoom range and ports. The Olympus PEN 4/3rds bodies are pretty tiny, so some possibilities there.

I have a GX7 mk II in a Nauticam housing. Was intended to be my wife's macro setup, but instead is the lighter travel choice. I've also coupled it at times with the Weefine 3000 ring light that screws onto the 67mm thread of the main or flat port (but not the wide angle), and even won a prize in a California shootout with that combo (thinktank luggage). For moderately narrow or macro shooting, this could work without the torquing problems of a strobe arm. However, I do note that the shutter level on this compact requires more pressure than on the Nauticam housing for the 4/3 GH4. If she's not able to brace with her left upper arm, this could lead to a twisting motion when firing. That can probably be assessed at a store or an expo table.

If demoing isn't a possibility, there are some rental options from places like Bluewater. Take on a trip before committing.

drusus said:

The photo of the RX100 in a housing was very useful. It sounds like shooting ambient light with a Canon GX7 or Sony RX100 in a housing might be a good next step, as well as the suggestion to attend an expo and consider buying used.

Click to expand...

Since cell phone cameras have killed the point-n-shoot market, it is hard to find all the options we used to have. Lots of Canon point-n-shoots with matching housings, all under $500 new. Pretty much only the top end of those camera lines survive.

Back in 2014 I was sick and tired of the shots I was getting with a point-n-shoot without strobes. I was also sick and tired of 'fish tail shots' - the shots you get of a fish swimming away because your autofocus was so abysmally slow.

I decided to try a bigger sensor compact camera and ended up with the RX100 II. (Could have picked the III at the time, but went with the II based on the lens.) I also added a focus light and dual strobes.

The result? I got hugely improved shots due to the strobes, but the AF speed was pretty much as slow as the point-n-shoots of the day. The 1-inch sensor was better than the smaller ones, but not a lot. 20MP was better than 12 or 14, but ... well, I was used to the 36mp I got from my Nikon D810. However, the rig was definitely portable, compared to what I ended up with later in a DSLR rig.

Here is the rig in Moorea. Image was taken by my late wife with a Canon s95.


First trip with new RX100 II rig, 2015 French Polynesia



This is one rig that might be doable with only one hand, though the other hand will need to be able to brace things.

Here's a shot from that dive.


Strobes made this shot...

Due to the autofocus issues, I decided to take my D810 underwater the following year. And four years after that, I took my D850 underwater. Finally got everything I wanted in terms of dynamic range and autofocus, except with video.

I would be looking at the latest version of the RX100, for sure. I have no doubt it has improved since the 2014 version.

--
Phoenix Arizona Craig
www.cjcphoto.net
"I miss the days when I was nostalgic."

I just ordered the Sealife SportDiver with light tray for my IPhone 13 Pro. I figured I have a great “point and shoot” and is relatively future proof rather than getting a new housing my DSLR. It gets here on Thursday and heading out to go diving in the next 2 weeks, so I’ll let you know and see how it goes!

This is going to be my first underwater shoot so it should be interesting/fun.