Skin tones can indeed be corrected (BIG FILES!)

jeffkrol · Nov 7, 2003

What about Corel Photo Paint? I usually upgrade mine to the previous edition for pennies on the dollar. Started using Lab mode and I really like the way it works.

Not everyone needs a $500 program. Using 9 right now. As I was playing with some of the images using the previous posters LAB methods of color correction
it worked quite well.
Maybe Sigma should bundle Corel with it to get the ultimate "underdog"
package!

PHB188487 · Nov 7, 2003

Something like this should be implemented in SPP. The sensor itself is not flawed for as long as the colors can be reliably corrected in the software. But I do think that the software that comes with the camera should provide all the necessary tools to do this.

Schnauzer said:
Zone8 said:

The following is not designed to cause offence -

Click to expand...

Why on earth would I be offended by being called stupid, lazy, and
inept? You wouldn't be offended if I called you a clueless gasbag,
would you?

Do you think the Foveon image of the woman at issue is yellow?

Can you download the woman from the sigma site and get the yellow
out using SP?

Your willingness to tolerate flawed equipment is baffling. If your
car is out of alignment, do you adjust your steering, or do you get
it aligned?

Schnauzer said:

There's an old Chinese proverb that says "Anything worth doing is
worth doing well".

Click to expand...

Does that apply to Sigma as well?

Laurence Matson · Nov 7, 2003

I agree about Corel. Plus it has lots of great effects for those who are into that stuff. Finally, it can delineate single pixels at 1600 for comparisons.

And Corel Draw is still my print program of choice.

jeffkrol said:
What about Corel Photo Paint? I usually upgrade mine to the
previous edition for pennies on the dollar. Started using Lab mode
and I really like the way it works.
Not everyone needs a $500 program. Using 9 right now. As I was
playing with some of the images using the previous posters LAB
methods of color correction
it worked quite well.
Maybe Sigma should bundle Corel with it to get the ultimate "underdog"
package!

--
Laurence Φ€ 08 LL

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/sd9_images
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com (eternal test site)

PHB188487 · Nov 7, 2003

No color management support. Kiss your color-accurate prints goodbye.

Besides, there are some creative ways to legally own Photoshop 7 for about $300.

Schnauzer · Nov 7, 2003

. . . the word "zealot" was so provocative, and I regret using it. There are many Sigma defenders who seem to me to make illogical or even irrational arguments in their zeal to defend Sigma. Do you honestly think the Foveon woman, or any human, whatever race, could have a shoulder that yellow? I can predict what you're going to say: I didn't take the shot, I wasn't there, yada yada. Okay, do you think the coloration in that picture is skillful and pleasing?

Your advice about switching brands is well taken.

Thomas Ko · Nov 7, 2003

The color is correctable through software. I think Foveon is working on it (since they listen to us). For now, we can/have to correct through SPP/PS/PSP whatever tool that we are able to use (This is not good, but also not bad enough to said it is flaw).

About the yellow cast, say it good is "taste", say it bad is "flaw". But it is hard to force someone to accept their taste is flaw. If it is not your taste, then you have to either move on or work around. For me, the Sharpness and powerfull SPP is the key for me to choose SD9. And I do suffer from adjusting some of the skin tone, but to me, adjust color is easier than USM the picture. Also, low light limitation is another factor, but i shoot daily/bright/good light condition photo (and i don't mind to use flash). So, I am satify for now.

Of course, everyone here have our own expectations, so, please don't expect everything is perfect (althought they should be perfect). And just kindly discuss our point of view. Again, Sigma/Foveon are listening.

Schnauzer said:
Zone8 said:

The following is not designed to cause offence -

Click to expand...

Why on earth would I be offended by being called stupid, lazy, and
inept? You wouldn't be offended if I called you a clueless gasbag,
would you?

Do you think the Foveon image of the woman at issue is yellow?

Can you download the woman from the sigma site and get the yellow
out using SP?

Your willingness to tolerate flawed equipment is baffling. If your
car is out of alignment, do you adjust your steering, or do you get
it aligned?

Schnauzer said:

There's an old Chinese proverb that says "Anything worth doing is
worth doing well".

Click to expand...

Does that apply to Sigma as well?

--
Thomas the C.Wolf 8^)
Gallery:
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/c_wolf
http://www.pbase.com/c_wolf

pyro · Nov 7, 2003

TopGlass said:
Here are two pictures. One of them is uncorrected version from
Foveon web site (I hope I'm not infringing upon anyone's
intellectual property by re-posting demo pic). Another is the same
picture corrected using the methodology outlined on sd9.org site
plus my own little twists. The corrections were done on a color
calibrated monitor (GretagMacbeth Eye-One Display), and the result
shows a very good (perhaps a bit oversaturated), hue-accurate skin
tone.

This methodology works on LOTS of Foveon pictures. In fact it works
on almost all pictures with hue-inaccurate skin tones and grass
(makes the grass green, too!). I wonder why Sigma/Foveon haven't
implemented something like this in SPP.

Uncorrected:

Corrected:

I made a compromise between the yellow and the red. I used magic wand in photoshop to isolate the shoulder and make separate ajustments. What do you think?

my correction
http://www.pbase.com/image/23077263

Zone8 · Nov 7, 2003

IF you had read what I actually said, you would have realised that colour issues with the SD9 (or any camera, for that matter, film or digital) are not the true "problem" - it is the photographer who cannot be bothered to set the custom WB or, in the case of film, checked and adjusted for the ambient colour temperature of the lighting conditions "at the time". It is simply a question of whether or not you want to achieve the best possible quality.

As I rightly stated, getting "good" colour is down to the photographer. If you are unable to accept that the photographer has to input something, then I pity you. Whatever camera system you use, you will just never get to the high quality stakes. However, that may be a limitation you are prepared to accept so that you can blame everyone and everything except yourself.

Zone8

Ladehaug · Nov 7, 2003

Ladehaug · Nov 7, 2003

PHB188487 · Nov 7, 2003

If you've seen those correction templates they fix a lot more than just white balance. Original pic has the correct white balance. In fact, white balance doesn't seem to change at all. I do find the adjusted colors a lot more realistic. It makes the grass green instead of "olive" and it makes the skin pink instead of red. I should also try it on skies and see if this fixes that "sky is too blue" problem. Since these templates do something with magenta, it may fix this isssue as well.

This essentially means that if I buy a SD10 I know how to bring the skin tones (caucasian skin tones at least) in sync with what I see with my own eyes. Of course there's no way to tell if that lady really had yellowish skin, but I really doubt she did, at least not to such an extent.

Zone8 said:
IF you had read what I actually said, you would have realised that
colour issues with the SD9 (or any camera, for that matter, film or
digital) are not the true "problem" - it is the photographer who
cannot be bothered to set the custom WB or, in the case of film,
checked and adjusted for the ambient colour temperature of the
lighting conditions "at the time". It is simply a question of
whether or not you want to achieve the best possible quality.

As I rightly stated, getting "good" colour is down to the
photographer. If you are unable to accept that the photographer
has to input something, then I pity you. Whatever camera system
you use, you will just never get to the high quality stakes.
However, that may be a limitation you are prepared to accept so
that you can blame everyone and everything except yourself.

Zone8

Schnauzer · Nov 7, 2003

Zone8 said:
IF you had read what I actually said . . .

I did read it. Perhaps I didn't comprehend it because I'm pitiably stupid.

I'd be interested to know:

Do you think the Foveon image of the woman at issue is yellow? If so, would that be because the pros who produced the image couldn't be bothered to set a custom WB, did not want the best possible quality, or were unable to accept that the photographer has to input something? If, on the other hand, you think it's a pleasing image with no color defects, please say so.

Can you download the "woman" X3F from the sigma site and get the yellow out using SP? If, however, you could improve it using only only SP, and tell me how, I would learn something and truly thank you. You claim to be a pro: prove it. By doing so, you'd put me in my place far more effectively than by witless condescension.

PHB188487 · Nov 7, 2003

Ladehaug said:

Pretty darn cool. You've reduced the strength of the yellow hue correcting layer, right? I was fixing this pic against my wife's skin color which is what you see in the result (except that I should have reduced the overall saturation). My wife is no blonde though.

PHB188487 · Nov 7, 2003

If you tweak them too much people will call it false advertising and sue you for profit.

That's why companies like Line 6 (they make digital modelling guitar amps) record their gear straight, without any processing at all, even though they disappoint a lot of potential customers by doing so.

I use tube amplifiers that I build myself though. I wish I could build sensors and processors as easily.

Schnauzer · Nov 7, 2003

. . . but I doubt it. The Sigma X3F, after all, is meant to be downloaded. I would think that people could have a good discourse and shared experimentation with that file, because there can't possibly be any issues of competence, or anything getting lost in conversion, etc. But what do I know? According to some, I'm not only stupid, I'm too blind to see that all of us are yellow.

Jimmy Chen · Nov 7, 2003

Schnauzer said:
Do you
honestly think the Foveon woman, or any human, whatever race, could
have a shoulder that yellow?

Can anyone tell me the exact color temp the lighting was used to take that shot? Was it 3500K, 5000K, 6500K, 10000K, or its open out in the left field for anyone to guess?

So how can we even have any idea what her skin tone should look like under a lighting condition that is unknown to us?

--
jc

Dominic Groß · Nov 7, 2003

Schnauzer said:
Do you honestly think the Foveon woman, or any human,
whatever race, could have a shoulder that yellow?

Do you honestly think that if the color is a Camera fault, the Camera reproduces the should extremly yellow and the face only slightly yellow?

I think there was light of different temperature mixing, anyway the skin of the face comes out better when I pick the eyeball in PS for Wb.

--
Regards from Old Europe,

Dominic

http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/dominic_gross

Schnauzer · Nov 7, 2003

. . . in the translation.

Dominic Groß said:
Do you honestly think that if the color is a Camera fault, the
Camera reproduces the should extremly yellow and the face only
slightly yellow?

Maybe I should say, "Etwas ging in der Übersetzung dort verloren" (courtesy of Babelfish

)

You're suggesting the studio lighting was deliberate or otherwise caused the yellow?

Schnauzer · Nov 7, 2003

Never mind. Now I see. Read "shoulder" for "should."

You've got a point. To my eye the picture is yellow all over, and the problem is exacerbated in the shoulder area that is underexposed relative to the face.

oc · Nov 7, 2003

Agreed, but the correct WB is the first step to get good color. Somehow Sigma or Foven did not implement their SD9 WB settings properly. When I shot in day light(around noon in summer time) using sunlight WB. It did not give the right WB at all (shift slightly to green - lens coating???). Shooting with a gray card fixed it up. Even with the proper WB, the green was a bit dull & the skin tone is slightly yellowish imho, but were quite acceptable.

I downloaded SPP2.0 (from the leak), and reprocessed some outdoor photos I shot in summer day time. What I can say is they fixed up the WB (at least for Sunlight WB). Green was more natural & pleasing, and skin tones were quite good too, and this was straight from the default SPP setting in sunlight WB without any color adjustment. SPP2.0 is quite a pleasure to use now.

Does it need further improvement? Yes, concentrate on the blue/cyan (still too saturated, but this gives excellent sky color).

Please be aware that my comments are based on an unoffical SPP2.0.

oc

Ladehaug said:
(nt)

Skin tones can indeed be corrected (BIG FILES!)

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