D1 Noise Hoax Exposed

Rob Galbraith · Dec 2, 1999

Hi Bill,

Thank you for confirming all that's good and bad about the Internet. Because
I disagree with your position it must be because I'm a Nikon marketing
spokesman? Please, let's try to keep the dialog less inflamatory than that Bill.

As I believe it was clear from a careful reading of what I wrote, I said that the test

by Kristian Linnemann misled colleagues and consulting clients into thinking that

their images were going to be overun by the noise he shows at all ISOs. This is NOT the case,

as I'm sure you will agree. In fact, in examining the printed output of ISO 200 files from three

different production cameras, files from the D1 I have as well as from two photog friends

I trust, what I see is noise-free images. The noise is THERE, yes, yes it's THERE (oops, that's

probably in violation of my marketing contract with Nikon ;-) ), but it's not visible.

So, if you agree that ISO 200 images are not overrun with horizontal noise lines, and

if you've used the camera for awhile and made prints from it, I don't see how you
could disagree, please then tell me how my statement "IS NOT AT ALL FAIR".

Rob
[email protected]
Ooops, I mean...
[email protected]

####################

Fred H. · Dec 2, 1999

Ed:

I am so glad that you can speak from personal, long-time experience. What I am afraid of, from my own experience in trying to raise flags with regard to the image quality that may be expected from some Nikon digicams is that many people who visit this site just don't want to hear that Nikon is not the near-perfect producer of fine cameras that they may have been in the film camera business. I applaud your willingness to share your take on the issue and hope that you won't be intimidated by the thoughtless people who attempt to make this debate personal [and who may be hoping to create enough heat so that people who make valid critiques may take their comments elsewhere].

Fred H.

Peter iNova · Dec 2, 1999

Brent Keith said:
Peter iNova said:

I'm now tracking down the unexpected benefit to all this, the fact that
the 950's can be "push processed" into some pretty interesting realms of
"available darkness". The footbridge shots I posted earlier on this
thread has me thinking that shooting for ISO 1600 or 3200 -like results
isn't as silly as I might have supposed a week ago.

Other artifacts show up and in the example given, the ISO has jumped from
320 to 2560 (he said, estimating from the 8X increase) and is better
looking in some ways than would have jumped out from a longer exposure (I
think it was 1/4) where blown pixels start showing.

Click to expand...

-iNova

Brent Keith13673 said:
Peter,

Are you suggesting to reach for the -2.0 ev control before increasing the
ISO on the CP950? I wonder if this has merit on the D1 as well.

Brent

Well, not that you SHOULD but that you COULD. It will up your exposure time to something perhaps more reasonable for a hand held shot and a Levels adjust to 0,1,63 will give a pretty good exposure boost in post.

In the D1 I just don't think it would help.

-iNova

Fred H. · Dec 2, 1999

Marcus:

Your 'chickenhead' comment, which you have since apologized for, was not a wise one [I made a 'sycophant' comment for which I also later apologized], and I hope that anyone who may have been offended has accepted your apology.

I'd be curious to know if you had seen this posting of mine:

Nikon admits to 'blue channel noise' in D1[10/12/99]:
http://photo.askey.net/forums/read.asp?forum=1007&message=42636

Fred H.

Tb13752 · Dec 4, 1999

Has anyone complaining of noise tried setting the sharpening in the D1 to low or to none?

I tested it and didn't like the noise, but I didn't have time to check the sharpining settings.

I also tested the 620 and 660 and found them a bit too "soft fosus". Still happy with the 950.

I shoot fashion in Europe sometimes with it and it 's published full page color, no problems.

Peter iNova · Dec 4, 1999

Tb said:
Has anyone complaining of noise tried setting the sharpening in the D1 to
low or to none?
I tested it and didn't like the noise, but I didn't have time to check
the sharpining settings.
I also tested the 620 and 660 and found them a bit too "soft fosus".
Still happy with the 950.
I shoot fashion in Europe sometimes with it and it 's published full page
color, no problems.
--

+++++

Well, now we want to see the shots, too.

-iNova

Tb13752 · Dec 4, 1999

Peter iNova said:
Tb said:

Has anyone complaining of noise tried setting the sharpening in the D1 to
low or to none?
I tested it and didn't like the noise, but I didn't have time to check
the sharpining settings.
I also tested the 620 and 660 and found them a bit too "soft fosus".
Still happy with the 950.
I shoot fashion in Europe sometimes with it and it 's published full page
color, no problems.
--

Click to expand...

+++++

Well, now we want to see the shots, too.

-iNova

OK

where should I send them ? I'll need to compress them as jpg as I have incresed the file size.
Let me try and e mail you a couple

Taki

Taki

wood · Dec 4, 1999

I think you are on to something that might solve the problem. I was going to buy two D1s for in-the-field stereo machine vision. Computers see noise, if it is there, and must be dealt with for stereo depth analysis. If the noise error of each CCD is constant (does not move around) then it should be possible to write a small quick program to compenstate for specific CCDs, pixel by pixel. This might be a solution Nikon could also implement.
Doug

Peter iNova said:
Erik said:

Francis asks "What do I make of this?"

I am fascinated by the wording of his answer. From the syntax of his
reply and the anonymous responder's title--"Nikon Corp., spokesman" (in
the USA, we'd get at least a first name), this IS a Japanese individual
who sent you this note. So it doesn't surprise me that the wording is
indirect.

"Unfortunately, we cannot cancel the noise of the CCD AT THIS MOMENT."

Aha...it IS noise in the CCD -- which Nikon doesn't make, remember, and
their deal with the manufacturer precludes saying too much about it. Now
he has confirmed that Nikon is aware of the problem and is trying to fix
it. (Their reputation requires that they do that, I think).

My guess is that Nikon is "in a flap" over this thing, and that they are
wondering how to deal with the problem and do "damage control" at the
same time.

My guess is that there are significant variations in quality of the CCD
which "pushes the envelope" of the technology.

And my guess is that Phil Askey based his review on a
(pre-released)version of the camera with one of the GOOD (or better) CCDs
(perhaps the "pick of the litter" so to speak?

Erik

Click to expand...

The examples from Phil Askey's gallery show the bright side of the force.
As Galbraith and others have noted, for 99+% of your images, the streaks
are completely below image data level numbers. I tried, unsuccessfully,
to elicit them from the darkest of Phil's shots and there was so much
dynamic range to the images (a good thing) that the shadows were full of
data way above noise and it would have taken much more extreme images to
coax them to show.

You can also trim off the noise almost completely by simply lifting the
left-most control in the histogram of the Photoshop Levels window by 4 or
8 units depending on the ISO you shot at.

I still think that there may be a relatively automatic way of trimming
the noise from a master using an exotic reverse/mask technique in
Photoshop by combining a lenscap-on "flaw frame" shot at the same ISO and
exposure time as an extreme frame to be "rescued". The goal of that
technique would be to produce an image that THEN could be lifted to ISO
2.6 bazillion without seeing the streaks. (Somebody post a URL to a pair
of shots that fit this bill and I'll be glad to play around with them.
ISO 400 would make an interesting test.)

For most images, it simply isn't a problem. For extreme images it can be.

I'm now tracking down the unexpected benefit to all this, the fact that
the 950's can be "push processed" into some pretty interesting realms of
"available darkness". The footbridge shots I posted earlier on this
thread has me thinking that shooting for ISO 1600 or 3200 -like results
isn't as silly as I might have supposed a week ago.

Other artifacts show up and in the example given, the ISO has jumped from
320 to 2560 (he said, estimating from the 8X increase) and is better
looking in some ways than would have jumped out from a longer exposure (I
think it was 1/4) where blown pixels start showing.

-iNova

Paul Richman · Dec 4, 1999

Tb-

I'd like to see your best few shots also. Why not put them up using:

http://www.clubphoto.com/software/

which is free, so others here can see? If not, use my e-mail. I'm D1 #13 at my dealer, who's delivered a total of 1 to others so far. (When I bought a Kodak DCS 330 from him in late September, it was with an agreement that I could trade it in for a D1 when he gets #13. The 330 is terrific but I want the D1 more.)

I'm just an avid ameteur and do little low light photography. Mostly landscape, flower, ammonite, trilobite, and little-varmit pictures.

Thanks!

Paul

PS - Peter iNova, I really appreciate your thoughtful, professional, insightful, responses and editorials. THANKS!

Tb said:
Peter iNova said:

Tb said:

Has anyone complaining of noise tried setting the sharpening in the D1 to
low or to none?
I tested it and didn't like the noise, but I didn't have time to check
the sharpining settings.
I also tested the 620 and 660 and found them a bit too "soft fosus".
Still happy with the 950.
I shoot fashion in Europe sometimes with it and it 's published full page
color, no problems.
--

Click to expand...

+++++

Well, now we want to see the shots, too.

-iNova

Click to expand...

OK
where should I send them ? I'll need to compress them as jpg as I have
incresed the file size.
Let me try and e mail you a couple

Taki

Taki

Peter iNova · Dec 4, 1999

Taki,

Thanks for the images. Great stuff. Very chic and dynamic. Any photo editor would be glad to get such fine images. You need a web page with as much style and grace as the images have in them. The shots from the 950 are clear proof that these cameras are well within professional service.

-iNova

Tb said:
Peter iNova said:

Tb said:

Has anyone complaining of noise tried setting the sharpening in the D1 to
low or to none?
I tested it and didn't like the noise, but I didn't have time to check
the sharpining settings.
I also tested the 620 and 660 and found them a bit too "soft fosus".
Still happy with the 950.
I shoot fashion in Europe sometimes with it and it 's published full page
color, no problems.
--

Click to expand...

+++++

Well, now we want to see the shots, too.

-iNova

Click to expand...

OK
where should I send them ? I'll need to compress them as jpg as I have
incresed the file size.
Let me try and e mail you a couple

Taki

Taki

Tb13752 · Dec 5, 1999

Paul Richman said:
Tb-

I'd like to see your best few shots also. Why not put them up using:

http://www.clubphoto.com/software/

I'll do that when I get a little time, leaving on a trip today.
here is a picture.

Tb

Search

D1 Noise Hoax Exposed

Rob Galbraith

Guest

Fred H.

Guest

Peter iNova

Guest

Fred H.

Guest

Tb13752

New member

Peter iNova

Guest

Tb13752

New member

wood

New member

Paul Richman

Guest

Peter iNova

Guest

Tb13752

New member

Keyboard shortcuts