Fujifilm & Computational Photography

Batdude · Dec 10, 2021

I have heard that Fuji (might) come out with computational photography along with the X-H2. What exactly does that mean? Is that a hardware thing or software, or both? I honestly haven't really been paying too much attention to this subject, but what does computational photography have to do with Fujifilm.

Are they the only ones that will have that technology? Does it mean that I can do that with my old rinky dinky XT1 or will it involve having to buy the latest and greatest Fujifilm camera? What about other camera brands? Can someone explain this in an easier language to get a better idea?

Thank you

forest dream · Dec 12, 2021

roberthd12 said:
The iPhone? Pretty automatic, and even my 90-year-old relatives can use them. Just aim and then hit the button.

All smartphone (include iPhone and mid-range Android phone) inheritance Kodak slogan : “You Press The Button - We Do The Rest.”

forest dream · Dec 12, 2021

DarnGoodPhotos said:
DarnGoodPhotos wrote

The new stacked sensors finally have fast enough readout to be used for good CP and thats what is supposed to come in one of the XH2s.

Rumors siad X-H2 may come with 2 variant, only premium edition come with 40MP stacked BSI sensor; affordable edition still come with existing 26MP BSI sensor.

Lumix GH6 (with Sony 20MP Stacked Micro Four Thirds sensor) is expected to ship by the end of 2021 for around $2,500.

Curious X-H2 stacked sensor edition able sell cheaper than $2,500.

Gringostarr · Dec 12, 2021

forest dream said:
forest dream said:

DarnGoodPhotos wrote

The new stacked sensors finally have fast enough readout to be used for good CP and thats what is supposed to come in one of the XH2s.

Click to expand...

Rumors siad X-H2 may come with 2 variant, only premium edition come with 40MP stacked BSI sensor; affordable edition still come with existing 26MP BSI sensor.

False.

Loading…

www.fujirumors.com

CLAIM: FujiRumors said one X-H2 will have the existing 26MP X-Trans IV sensor (currently in use on X-T4)
No I did not say that. I said that it will have a 26MP sensor, but I don’t know if it will be an X-Trans IV sensor (maybe combined with new processor to take the most out of it), or a new 26MP sensor.

We also have no idea about the specs of either sensor, if both are stacked, or if only one is stacked, if they're Bayer or X-Trans, or if either one is an existing sensor.

forest dream said:
Lumix GH6 (with Sony 20MP Stacked Micro Four Thirds sensor) is expected to ship by the end of 2021 for around $2,500.

Curious X-H2 stacked sensor edition able sell cheaper than $2,500

Again, look at the actual facts that have been shared.

CLAIM: FujiRumors said both X-H2 cameras will cost below $2,500
I don’t know if both X-H2 cameras will cost sub $2,500 (one should, but if both will remains open).

airat · Dec 12, 2021

And they brought it to life, actually

forest dream · Dec 12, 2021

Gringostarr said:
forest dream said:

Gringostarr said:

DarnGoodPhotos wrote

The new stacked sensors finally have fast enough readout to be used for good CP and thats what is supposed to come in one of the XH2s.

Click to expand...

Rumors siad X-H2 may come with 2 variant, only premium edition come with 40MP stacked BSI sensor; affordable edition still come with existing 26MP BSI sensor.

Click to expand...

False.

https://www.fujirumors.com/ten-10-f...e-guys-think-i-did-and-now-i-need-to-clarify/

CLAIM: FujiRumors said one X-H2 will have the existing 26MP X-Trans IV sensor (currently in use on X-T4)

No I did not say that. I said that it will have a 26MP sensor, but I don’t know if it will be an X-Trans IV sensor (maybe combined with new processor to take the most out of it), or a new 26MP sensor.

We also have no idea about the specs of either sensor, if both are stacked, or if only one is stacked, if they're Bayer or X-Trans, or if either one is an existing sensor.

Gringostarr said:

Lumix GH6 (with Sony 20MP Stacked Micro Four Thirds sensor) is expected to ship by the end of 2021 for around $2,500.

Curious X-H2 stacked sensor edition able sell cheaper than $2,500

Click to expand...

Again, look at the actual facts that have been shared.

CLAIM: FujiRumors said both X-H2 cameras will cost below $2,500

I don’t know if both X-H2 cameras will cost sub $2,500 (one should, but if both will remains open).

Camera with stacked sensor :

$1,300 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 VII, first RX100 series with 1-inch 20MP stacked BSI sensor.
Coming soon - $2,500 Lumix GH6, first camera with Sony 20MP Micro Four Thirds stacked sensor.
Coming soon, premium X-H2 (40MP stacked APS-C sensor) .....
$5,500 Nikon Z9, 45.7MP full frame Stacked CMOS sensor.

jhorse · Dec 13, 2021

Pocket Lint said:
I’ll take real bokeh and real Gaussian blur over simulated blur any day.

I want to be in control and involved in the process of making a photo rather than an algorithm and computer.

Otherwise, why do photography?

Hi, I agree with you, but, and here's the rub, the majority of consumers are content with the output and convenience of their phone cameras. I suspect that the global proportion of photographers using either a camera or a phone (yes, I know there are many people who use both) will only increase in favour of phone users. That will increase commercial pressure on camera makers.

I hope there will remain enough photography enthusiasts, both amateur and professional, to sustain camera manufacturers. For the moment, fortunately, it seems that there are camera buyers, so I hope there will be enough sales to sustain manufacturers profitably for the foreseeable future.

Pocket Lint · Dec 13, 2021

jhorse said:
Pocket Lint said:

I’ll take real bokeh and real Gaussian blur over simulated blur any day.

I want to be in control and involved in the process of making a photo rather than an algorithm and computer.

Otherwise, why do photography?

Click to expand...

Hi, I agree with you, but, and here's the rub, the majority of consumers are content with the output and convenience of their phone cameras. I suspect that the global proportion of photographers using either a camera or a phone (yes, I know there are many people who use both) will only increase in favour of phone users. That will increase commercial pressure on camera makers.

I hope there will remain enough photography enthusiasts, both amateur and professional, to sustain camera manufacturers. For the moment, fortunately, it seems that there are camera buyers, so I hope there will be enough sales to sustain manufacturers profitably for the foreseeable future.

Gringostarr · Dec 13, 2021

forest dream said:
Gringostarr said:

forest dream said:

forest dream said:

DarnGoodPhotos wrote

The new stacked sensors finally have fast enough readout to be used for good CP and thats what is supposed to come in one of the XH2s.

Click to expand...

Rumors siad X-H2 may come with 2 variant, only premium edition come with 40MP stacked BSI sensor; affordable edition still come with existing 26MP BSI sensor.

Click to expand...

False.

https://www.fujirumors.com/ten-10-f...e-guys-think-i-did-and-now-i-need-to-clarify/

CLAIM: FujiRumors said one X-H2 will have the existing 26MP X-Trans IV sensor (currently in use on X-T4)

No I did not say that. I said that it will have a 26MP sensor, but I don’t know if it will be an X-Trans IV sensor (maybe combined with new processor to take the most out of it), or a new 26MP sensor.

We also have no idea about the specs of either sensor, if both are stacked, or if only one is stacked, if they're Bayer or X-Trans, or if either one is an existing sensor.

forest dream said:

Lumix GH6 (with Sony 20MP Stacked Micro Four Thirds sensor) is expected to ship by the end of 2021 for around $2,500.

Curious X-H2 stacked sensor edition able sell cheaper than $2,500

Click to expand...

Again, look at the actual facts that have been shared.

CLAIM: FujiRumors said both X-H2 cameras will cost below $2,500

I don’t know if both X-H2 cameras will cost sub $2,500 (one should, but if both will remains open).

Click to expand...

Camera with stacked sensor :

$1,300 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 VII, first RX100 series with 1-inch 20MP stacked BSI sensor.

Coming soon - $2,500 Lumix GH6, first camera with Sony 20MP Micro Four Thirds stacked sensor.

Coming soon, premium X-H2 (40MP stacked APS-C sensor) .....

$5,500 Nikon Z9, 45.7MP full frame Stacked CMOS sensor.

Stacking a sensor can do much more than just increasing the MP of the sensor though. I've already written about this in this very thread.

forest dream · Dec 13, 2021

Gringostarr said:
Stacking a sensor can do much more than just increasing the MP of the sensor though. I've already written about this in this very thread.

Please refer to Samsung stacked sensor in below design : "By using the super-fine 14nm process on the processing layer, Samsung says it could achieve a 29% drop in power consumption compared to current conventional sensors that use a 65nm/28nm process."

https://dpreview.com/news/218354003...power-efficiency-density-mobile-image-sensors

Core concept of stacked sensor only improve performance of processing layer. In others words, stacked sensor improve sensor read-out speed, that's all.

If attach fastest external harddisk to laptop, didn't means Adobe Lightroom has more features.

Similar to Olympus "Live ND" or Sony a7IV "Breathing Compensation mode", Fujifilm X-H2 may has more computational photography features, only if Fujifilm develop more "computational photography features" into firmware (software).

I agree that some "computational photography features" need faster processor and sensor. But, it didn't means faster processor and sensor must bring more "computational photography features"

thomega · Dec 14, 2021

chapada said:
With computational photography you get photos like this one:

This is the perfect demonstration of the problem with "computational photography". It looks totally fake and overprocessed to me.

DarnGoodPhotos · Dec 14, 2021

Gringostarr said:
forest dream said:

Gringostarr said:

DarnGoodPhotos wrote

The new stacked sensors finally have fast enough readout to be used for good CP and thats what is supposed to come in one of the XH2s.

Click to expand...

Rumors siad X-H2 may come with 2 variant, only premium edition come with 40MP stacked BSI sensor; affordable edition still come with existing 26MP BSI sensor.

Click to expand...

False.

https://www.fujirumors.com/ten-10-f...e-guys-think-i-did-and-now-i-need-to-clarify/

CLAIM: FujiRumors said one X-H2 will have the existing 26MP X-Trans IV sensor (currently in use on X-T4)

No I did not say that. I said that it will have a 26MP sensor, but I don’t know if it will be an X-Trans IV sensor (maybe combined with new processor to take the most out of it), or a new 26MP sensor.

We also have no idea about the specs of either sensor, if both are stacked, or if only one is stacked, if they're Bayer or X-Trans, or if either one is an existing sensor.

Gringostarr said:

Lumix GH6 (with Sony 20MP Stacked Micro Four Thirds sensor) is expected to ship by the end of 2021 for around $2,500.

Curious X-H2 stacked sensor edition able sell cheaper than $2,500

Click to expand...

Again, look at the actual facts that have been shared.

CLAIM: FujiRumors said both X-H2 cameras will cost below $2,500

I don’t know if both X-H2 cameras will cost sub $2,500 (one should, but if both will remains open).

Kind of hard to say a concrete true or false when it comes to discussing rumor speculation.

Lettermanian · Dec 14, 2021

I know I'm being a bit of a wet blanket when I say that we shouldn't get any hopes up for something revolutionary from Fuji in the area of CP. Unless they've recently hired some disgruntled Apple employees, their track record in this area of photography is unremarkable; there's no real evidence of a significant investment in in-camera processing, other than their (remarkable!) color science. I've said it many times, but there are more in-camera features in their lower-end Bayer cameras (made by a third party, hmmm ) than in any X-Trans camera. The X-T200 is the pinnacle of "Fuji's" computational photography cameras thus far. At this stage, I'm actually more interested to see "Fuji's" next Bayer cam, to be honest.

As a side note, since it has come up in this thread, I think the speculation and hype surrounding the X-H2 is creating an expectation that will be impossible to meet. If people are hoping for a performance stills and video beast, loaded with smartphone cp skills, I think they will be sorely disappointed. We're more likely to see predictable upgrades as rumoured, with only a slight increase of in-camera processing features. If you don't get your hopes up, it's easier to be pleasantly surprised :-D

forest dream · Dec 14, 2021

Lettermanian said:
I know I'm being a bit of a wet blanket when I say that we shouldn't get any hopes up for something revolutionary from Fuji in the area of CP. Unless they've recently hired some disgruntled Apple employees,

No need hire ex Apple employees. Any good Android/iPhone app developer team better than existing Fujifilm smartphone connectivity app

Lettermanian said:
their track record in this area of photography is unremarkable; there's no real evidence of a significant investment in in-camera processing,

Already well know that Fujifilm didn't invest much on software especially "good" reputation on Fujifilm smartphone connectivity app

Lettermanian said:
other than their (remarkable!) color science.

Fujifilm simulation (filter) color science is good. IMO Fujifilm computational photography = Fujifilm simulation.

Lettermanian said:
I've said it many times, but there are more in-camera features in their lower-end Bayer cameras (made by a third party, hmmm ) than in any X-Trans camera. The X-T200 is the pinnacle of "Fuji's" computational photography cameras thus far.

Which computational photography features provided by Fujifilm X-A7 & Fujifilm X-T200?

Lettermanian said:
At this stage, I'm actually more interested to see "Fuji's" next Bayer cam, to be honest.

IMO more better if Fujifilm X-Trans support native output demosaiced Adobe DNG as RAW.

Lettermanian said:
As a side note, since it has come up in this thread, I think the speculation and hype surrounding the X-H2 is creating an expectation that will be impossible to meet. If people are hoping for a performance stills and video beast, loaded with smartphone cp skills, I think they will be sorely disappointed.

100% agree

Truman Prevatt · Dec 14, 2021

DarnGoodPhotos said:
Gringostarr said:

forest dream said:

DarnGoodPhotos said:

DarnGoodPhotos wrote

The new stacked sensors finally have fast enough readout to be used for good CP and thats what is supposed to come in one of the XH2s.

Click to expand...

Rumors siad X-H2 may come with 2 variant, only premium edition come with 40MP stacked BSI sensor; affordable edition still come with existing 26MP BSI sensor.

Click to expand...

False.

https://www.fujirumors.com/ten-10-f...e-guys-think-i-did-and-now-i-need-to-clarify/

CLAIM: FujiRumors said one X-H2 will have the existing 26MP X-Trans IV sensor (currently in use on X-T4)

No I did not say that. I said that it will have a 26MP sensor, but I don’t know if it will be an X-Trans IV sensor (maybe combined with new processor to take the most out of it), or a new 26MP sensor.

We also have no idea about the specs of either sensor, if both are stacked, or if only one is stacked, if they're Bayer or X-Trans, or if either one is an existing sensor.

DarnGoodPhotos said:

Lumix GH6 (with Sony 20MP Stacked Micro Four Thirds sensor) is expected to ship by the end of 2021 for around $2,500.

Curious X-H2 stacked sensor edition able sell cheaper than $2,500

Click to expand...

Again, look at the actual facts that have been shared.

CLAIM: FujiRumors said both X-H2 cameras will cost below $2,500

I don’t know if both X-H2 cameras will cost sub $2,500 (one should, but if both will remains open).

Click to expand...

Kind of hard to say a concrete true or false when it comes to discussing rumor speculation.

In other words - it all this and the excessive usage of Internet bandwidth is nothing more than a guess -not even all that educated it seems. In other words no one knows. Fujifilm has been quite good at keeping the details of the development close to the vest.

Good on them. Now Fuji rumors is back peddling based on the nonsense they have posted. If one were a bit of a skeptic one might postulate that Fuji has been using such rumor sites to chum and gather intelligence about the market - knowing all the time they have to weight the responses. One might say "well why would the do that since they need the rumor sites." Fujifilm or any other camera company needs a rumor site like a dog needs fleas. But if they can be used - to gain intelligence well treating them like a "two dollar prostitute" really isn't a bad idea.

We will know soon enough.

--
"The winds of heaven is that which blows between a horse's ears," Arabic Proverb
__
Truman
www.pbase.com/tprevatt

forest dream · Dec 14, 2021

Truman Prevatt said:
Fujifilm has been quite good at keeping the details of the development close to the vest.

Em... Nobody at rumors sites success predict Fujifilm X-E4 design "Less is more - flat body - selfie screen"...

Only some know Fujifilm never put IBIS into mid-range retro style camera.

$999 Fujifilm X-S10 (PASM with IBIS) used to attract consumer from other brand, not existing Fujilike user.

Batdude · Dec 14, 2021

Lettermanian said:
I know I'm being a bit of a wet blanket when I say that we shouldn't get any hopes up for something revolutionary from Fuji in the area of CP. Unless they've recently hired some disgruntled Apple employees, their track record in this area of photography is unremarkable; there's no real evidence of a significant investment in in-camera processing, other than their (remarkable!) color science. I've said it many times, but there are more in-camera features in their lower-end Bayer cameras (made by a third party, hmmm ) than in any X-Trans camera. The X-T200 is the pinnacle of "Fuji's" computational photography cameras thus far. At this stage, I'm actually more interested to see "Fuji's" next Bayer cam, to be honest.

As a side note, since it has come up in this thread, I think the speculation and hype surrounding the X-H2 is creating an expectation that will be impossible to meet. If people are hoping for a performance stills and video beast, loaded with smartphone cp skills, I think they will be sorely disappointed. We're more likely to see predictable upgrades as rumoured, with only a slight increase of in-camera processing features. If you don't get your hopes up, it's easier to be pleasantly surprised :-D

The reason why I originally asked about this is because I have read some people's comments that they "will wait for Fuji" because they might come out with computational photography, but based on aaaall the responses here I get the feeling that you are absolutely correct and also looks like Truman is also right when he said that "no one knows."

Time is running out for me and December will be gone soon and no word of the XH2. Meanwhile I have been messing around with Sony A7IV RAW files and OMG, they are pretty bloody fantastic. I'm really impressed and speechless because Sony has had such a bad reputation for bad looking skin tones and this and that but as of right now is looking like the A7IV will be my next camera.

The only reason why I would wait for a XH2 is if there was a one single piece bigger PRO body with bigger buttons , Professional grade battery and a proper joystick located on the proper spot compared to everything they have produced so far. Other than that I'm not interested in fast data transfer for fast AF-C photography because it is simply not my application and if the XH2 comes out with the same body then I will definitely pass.

Jerry-astro · Dec 14, 2021

Truman Prevatt said:
In other words - it all this and the excessive usage of Internet bandwidth is nothing more than a guess -not even all that educated it seems. In other words no one knows. Fujifilm has been quite good at keeping the details of the development close to the vest.

Good on them. Now Fuji rumors is back peddling based on the nonsense they have posted. If one were a bit of a skeptic one might postulate that Fuji has been using such rumor sites to chum and gather intelligence about the market - knowing all the time they have to weight the responses. One might say "well why would the do that since they need the rumor sites." Fujifilm or any other camera company needs a rumor site like a dog needs fleas. But if they can be used - to gain intelligence well treating them like a "two dollar prostitute" really isn't a bad idea.

We will know soon enough.

Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, did we, Truman? Kinda of a grumpy response. Rumors are rumors and that’s what these guys do, and have forever. Most people don’t take these at face value, but at times they can be pretty accurate, and they give people something to discuss (or grumble about as the case may be).

Just think of it as entertainment and draw your own conclusions. They’re probably right about as much as they’re wrong and most people seem to enjoy the speculation.

DarnGoodPhotos · Dec 15, 2021

Lettermanian said:
I know I'm being a bit of a wet blanket when I say that we shouldn't get any hopes up for something revolutionary from Fuji in the area of CP. Unless they've recently hired some disgruntled Apple employees, their track record in this area of photography is unremarkable; there's no real evidence of a significant investment in in-camera processing, other than their (remarkable!) color science. I've said it many times, but there are more in-camera features in their lower-end Bayer cameras (made by a third party, hmmm ) than in any X-Trans camera. The X-T200 is the pinnacle of "Fuji's" computational photography cameras thus far. At this stage, I'm actually more interested to see "Fuji's" next Bayer cam, to be honest.

The flagship cameras feature CP in the form of HDR Raw exposure stacking. What CP does the XT200 feature?

--
www.darngoodphotos.com

kamerakiri · Dec 15, 2021

DarnGoodPhotos said:
Lettermanian said:

I know I'm being a bit of a wet blanket when I say that we shouldn't get any hopes up for something revolutionary from Fuji in the area of CP. Unless they've recently hired some disgruntled Apple employees, their track record in this area of photography is unremarkable; there's no real evidence of a significant investment in in-camera processing, other than their (remarkable!) color science. I've said it many times, but there are more in-camera features in their lower-end Bayer cameras (made by a third party, hmmm ) than in any X-Trans camera. The X-T200 is the pinnacle of "Fuji's" computational photography cameras thus far. At this stage, I'm actually more interested to see "Fuji's" next Bayer cam, to be honest.

Click to expand...

The flagship cameras feature CP in the form of HDR Raw exposure stacking. What CP does the XT200 feature?

X-T200 does exposure stacking for video to give HDR video. No X camera has that. Of course, it does not make sense for X-T3/4 since they have F-log, which one can use to recover even more details in post processing.

Also, X-T200 has gyro sensor stabilization like Sony A7C. It gives much better performance for digital IS. Again, no X-camera has this.

X-T200 also has a neat film simulation/art filter preview interface.

It has portrait enhancer, bright mode, and some unique Advanced Filters which no X camera has:

[FISH-EYE]

[DYNAMIC TONE]

[HDR ART]

[CROSS SCREEN]

[RICH & FINE]

[MONOCHROME(NIR)]

[FOG REMOVE]

You may argue about the usefulness of these features(I think any extra feature is good to have).

But it can't be denied that X-T200 remains the most advanced computational photography camera by Fujifilm to date. Fuji does crazy stuff at times. It will be great if they release new "fun" Bayer camera with even more computational photography stuff.

Lettermanian · Dec 15, 2021

forest dream said:
Which computational photography features provided by Fujifilm X-A7 & Fujifilm X-T200?

Please see kamerakiri's comment below, and my addition

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