Longterm storage of backup HDD : Waterproof container?

Sebastian Cohen · Dec 11, 2021

So, I am doing an archival backup of EVERYTHING. This will be the "Doomsday Vault Backup" and it won't get backed up further or connected. It is going on a 3.5" HDD, no case. FYI, I will still be doing my regular backup routine with my other drives as normal.

Lately I have been thinking about how I store my backup drives, in general. I know they are airtight so air moisture variations shouldn't really be an issue. Problem is, they usually end up all over the place. Drawers, bottom of, cardboard boxes, usually bottom of.

So I've been thinking of sticking them into one of those plastic IKEA airtight refrigerator boxes. The type has this rubber seal which would also make them waterproof. It is an added protection AND it will be easier to find. I can also put in a note with what/where etc so I don't have to connect it if I don't remember. Sounds like I have a ton of discs, but you would be surprised how confused you can get with just a couple when you find one 4 years later.

SO, long question short. I will be creating a permanent "environment" in that box and I am wondering if or how that can be negative for the drive when the outside fluxtuates?

I am planning on throwing in one or two of those silica gel pouches as well, should negate any negative variations?

This will prob just lie there for 3-4 years.

I am aware of that the lubrication might dry out in the bearings, but this has not been an issue so far.

CAcreeks · Dec 14, 2021

Sean Nelson said:
Philip Eihuyar said:

I know no one is really interested in this however, out of curiousity, I did the math with current prices comparing cloud storage to storage on 'M' disks.

Click to expand...

Thanks for doing the math. Another concern for me is the longevity of cloud providers. Many of them are already out of business.

It would take about 9 days to transfer our family photos to the cloud, assuming continuous connection, which is unreasonably optimistic.

Sean Nelson said:
Sean Nelson said:

Even the best HDs will not retain data for more than 10 (if that) years in storage. SSDs are gone in a very few years.

Click to expand...

SCSI-1 => SCSI-2 => IDE => PATA => SATA => PCI => M.2 => NVMe => ????

Sean Nelson said:
I used to test all my DVD burns and caught a lot of them that were riddled with a huge number of correctable errors - they'd read just fine but were on the ragged edge of acceptability. The only way to know how marginal they were was with software that could report the raw error rates and a drive that was capable of reporting them (and such drives were not all that common).

Agreed, DVD sux.

CD-R discs were much more reliable and durable for me. I have some > 20 years old that I just read without data errors. That never happened with mag tape.

I'm hoping BluRay recordable (BD-R) is more like CD-R, but we shall see. 80¢ per disc.

Philip Eihuyar · Dec 14, 2021

Sean Nelson said:
I believe that no matter what storage medium you use, archived data needs to have redundant copies and it needs to be checked on a regular basis. 'M' disks sound great in practice, but so did DVDs when they first came out and my experience is that the longevity of the data was very highly dependent on the quality of the burn, which in turn was influenced by the interaction between the drive and the particular media.

I used to test all my DVD burns and caught a lot of them that were riddled with a huge number of correctable errors - they'd read just fine but were on the ragged edge of acceptability. The only way to know how marginal they were was with software that could report the raw error rates and a drive that was capable of reporting them (and such drives were not all that common).

So I just wouldn't trust any optical media without verifying it on a regular basis. There are too many things that could go wrong that you might not find out about until it's too late. Between poor manufacturing batches and drive compatibility, I just don't trust that 100% of all disks can be burned in 100% of all drives and be solid enough to last as long as advertised.

And that brings me to my big objection to optical media - it requires too much handling to make periodic verification runs practical. Since my own personal standards require me to have redundant copies and to verify them on a regular basis, the fact that media may last 1000 years instead of 5 years is irrelevant to me. I'd rather have a hard drive that fails in 4 years that I can replace than a bunch of optical disks that I have to jockey in and out of the drive on a regular basis, even if I never have to replace them.

In general regarding all optical media disks previous to the "M" disks, all you say is valid. What is important though is that the different technology of the "M" disks places this media in a different league and this can be seen in the testing of the disks themselves when compared with the tests done with all other optical media disks. The best proof of this is both the summary report on testing and then the detailed data of the tests.

https://esystor.com/page/M_Disc_NAWC.html -summary

Loading…

www.esystor.com

Obviously, the main drawback to using optical disks is the inconvenience. HDs and SSD drives are just way easier to use. But that ease of use is 100% canceled if the data is not there. So, if HDs and SSDs are out for long term storage, that leaves "cloud" storage. Image you kick the bucket tomorrow. In 20 or 50 years, (for some reason...) your ancestors or a historian wants to get access to that data, is it still 'in the 'cloud'? But, if stored on a "M" disk in a shoebox or safe, it still can be accessed. That is my simple and only point. But 3 TBs? Why not consider using "M" disk for only the stuff that should be saved for really long term storage?

Sean Nelson · Dec 14, 2021

Philip Eihuyar said:
Sean Nelson said:

I believe that no matter what storage medium you use, archived data needs to have redundant copies and it needs to be checked on a regular basis.

Click to expand...

In general regarding all optical media disks previous to the "M" disks, all you say is valid. What is important though is that the different technology of the "M" disks places this media in a different league...

Yeah, I remember them saying exactly the same thing about DVDs compared to CDs. I've seen enough media formats come and go to know that there's hype surrounding every new technology. Sometimes it's justified and sometimes it isn't, and you usually don't know until enough experience has been gained to reveal that it isn't. The takeaway is to understand that the bolder the claim, the more skepticism is warranted.

Here's the thing: M disks will either be 100% solid or they won't. By not depending on them to store data perfectly without verifying it from time to time I eliminate the risk of "won't" from my life. And even if they do turn out to be 100% perfect I haven't lost anything by using another technology.

Without a perfect track record to look back on, it's all just hopes and dreams as far as I'm concerned. Am I being paranoid? You betcha. Is it justified? Only time will tell. In the meantime I have faith in my data storage and sleep well at night.

kelpdiver · Dec 14, 2021

skyglider said:
kelpdiver said:

There's a lot of hand waving about how fire proof these consumer safes really are. Certainly more than nothing, but the ratings are mostly self dealt. And since their burglar ratings are also somewhat fantastical, using one doesn't remove the need for an offsite backup.

Click to expand...

My safe is bolted to the concrete slab floor from the inside using two large bolts. It will be very difficult for a burglar to even get a saw blade underneath the base of the safe to get at the two bolts. I'm satisfied that it is the best level of protection against theft that I can muster.

Yes, offsite backups are needed for near perfect protection but this thread appears to be about protecting hard drives that are stored in the home, is it not?

no, it's about protecting data. If you're relying on those two bolts (only 2?), you're not protected. And not remotely close to "nearly perfect." But hey, it's your data.
Unless your safe weights a few tons, the sides are easily penetrated with common tools found in the same garage. It's a question of how long they have; if they find the safe, it becomes the most attractive object. Less than 5 mins, should do the job. 15+? Not looking good.

Sean Nelson · Dec 14, 2021

kelpdiver said:
Unless your safe weights a few tons, the sides are easily penetrated with common tools found in the same garage. It's a question of how long they have; if they find the safe, it becomes the most attractive object.

I have a set of backups secreted away in my garage in a hidden location that I doubt thieves would take the time to suss out unless they already knew to look there. And there are a lot of more valuable and easier targets in there than a few disk drives to keep them occupied. Better an unknown target than a known but robust one, IMHO.

And all the sensitive stuff on my backups is encrypted.

But in addition to that I also have backups offsite as well, not to mention the ones in the house. Belt, suspenders, and snug pants is my motto.

kelpdiver · Dec 14, 2021

a_c_skinner said:
I think we are debating something we agree about. My point is, and I dare say will be again, that if someone relies completely on backups that are constantly on line they their data is far from safe. People see these solutions as "fire and forget" and that isn't easy to do. For the average user, and what the OP asked about, data is safest off line - disconnected.

no, we're quite in disagreement here. I see offline backups as untrustworthy when needed. You can't verify them without potentially damaging them - putting them through the handling and power up sequence. I much prefer the always verifiable routes.

Sean Nelson · Dec 14, 2021

kelpdiver said:
no, we're quite in disagreement here. I see offline backups as untrustworthy when needed. You can't verify them without potentially damaging them - putting them through the handling and power up sequence.

That's why you have multiple backups, and why you verify them from time to time.

I verify my backup drives before they get used for the next backup, and in a few decades of use I've never had a problem with them. So I have a great deal of confidence that they would have been there for me had I needed them.

The chances of a backup drive dying at just the same time I need it because of some issue with my main system seem very remote to me, and even if it does happen I have other backups in the cycle I can go to.

skyglider · Dec 14, 2021

kelpdiver said:
no, it's about protecting data. If you're relying on those two bolts (only 2?), you're not protected. And not remotely close to "nearly perfect." But hey, it's your data.

Unless your safe weights a few tons, the sides are easily penetrated with common tools found in the same garage. It's a question of how long they have; if they find the safe, it becomes the most attractive object. Less than 5 mins, should do the job. 15+? Not looking good.

So could you explain how you protect your data at your home? Might be helpful.

kelpdiver · Dec 14, 2021

Chris Noble said:
Chris Noble said:

Chris Noble said:

Glacier is for backup, which is what the OP is looking for.

Click to expand...

and it's a complete bear to use.

Click to expand...

Which API do you use? Some are ultra-easy and convenient. I use the Synology Glacier app, but there are many others.

I used Amazon's own glacier tools when I experimented. It was fun kicking off a multi hour job to see a failure at the end. It would only make sense if it works now AND is discounted.

Chris Noble said:
Chris Noble said:

You're paying the same for a far less convenient nearline service. (50 centos x 365 = 182.5$, or 60.80/TB/year.

Click to expand...

What are you comparing it to?

Amazon drive, in my case, but I think it's essentially the same with google. $60/year/TB for highly accessible storage. Microsoft will throw in a lot of storage for free if you subscribe to Office for $100/year.

kelpdiver · Dec 14, 2021

CAcreeks said:
Sean Nelson said:

Philip Eihuyar said:

I know no one is really interested in this however, out of curiousity, I did the math with current prices comparing cloud storage to storage on 'M' disks.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Thanks for doing the math. Another concern for me is the longevity of cloud providers. Many of them are already out of business.

Can you name a non crappy one that is out of business?

CAcreeks said:
I'm hoping BluRay recordable (BD-R) is more like CD-R, but we shall see. 80¢ per disc.

I think the M disk BRs might have a purpose if used just for the best of the best pictures, rather than the entire catalog.

kelpdiver · Dec 14, 2021

Sean Nelson said:
kelpdiver said:

Unless your safe weights a few tons, the sides are easily penetrated with common tools found in the same garage. It's a question of how long they have; if they find the safe, it becomes the most attractive object.

Click to expand...

I have a set of backups secreted away in my garage in a hidden location that I doubt thieves would take the time to suss out unless they already knew to look there. And there are a lot of more valuable and easier targets in there than a few disk drives to keep them occupied. Better an unknown target than a known but robust one, IMHO.

That is the dilemma, isn't it? Though thieves are pretty good at knowing common hiding places people use for jewelry. Just as people do stupid things like passwords of 1234 or 'password.'

Fire and flood protection is better in the safe. But the entire house could be lost, making all such copies vulnerable.

kelpdiver · Dec 14, 2021

Sean Nelson said:
kelpdiver said:

no, we're quite in disagreement here. I see offline backups as untrustworthy when needed. You can't verify them without potentially damaging them - putting them through the handling and power up sequence.

Click to expand...

That's why you have multiple backups, and why you verify them from time to time.

I verify my backup drives before they get used for the next backup, and in a few decades of use I've never had a problem with them. So I have a great deal of confidence that they would have been there for me had I needed them.

The chances of a backup drive dying at just the same time I need it because of some issue with my main system seem very remote to me, and even if it does happen I have other backups in the cycle I can go to.

the uncertainty is unacceptable to me. You have multiple failure points, including the bank. You cannot verify all is well in the next hour if you wanted to. I can.

I've seen too many examples of offline backups not actually being viable when it matters. And as I've said before, few people on earth are willing to adhere to the program you espouse.

CAcreeks · Dec 14, 2021

kelpdiver said:
Can you name a non crappy one that is out of business?

EMC had one that was a competitor of Carbonite, but I can't recall the name. [Added: Mozy]

Yahoo offered free file storage for a while, but (at that time) they didn't qualify as non-crappy.

MySpace was not cloud backup per se, but they are not big nowadays. For a while, members could find old Photos on Facebook, but no more.

Box seems to have abandoned their Dropbox-like business.

kelpdiver said:
kelpdiver said:

I'm hoping BluRay recordable (BD-R) is more like CD-R, but we shall see. 80¢ per disc.

Click to expand...

I think the M disk BRs might have a purpose if used just for the best of the best pictures, rather than the entire catalog.

We have some M-Disc BR-R, but haven't used them yet. My wife never bought any M-Disc DVDs, which today seems like a wise move.

Sean Nelson · Dec 14, 2021

kelpdiver said:
Sean Nelson said:

That's why you have multiple backups, and why you verify them from time to time.

Click to expand...

the uncertainty is unacceptable to me. You have multiple failure points, including the bank.

You seem to be confusing redundancy with multiple failure paths.

In a car, the drivetrain has many opportunities to fail. If the engine fails, or the transmission fails, or the constant velocity joints fail, or if you get a flat, you're hooped. The risk of failure of each component increases the overall risk.

But cars have redundant braking systems - two master cylinders, two sets of brake lines that go to two different pairs of brakes on two different wheels. If one of those systems fails, the other still allows you to brake. The overall risk is less than the risk of failure of each component.

kelpdiver · Dec 14, 2021

CAcreeks said:
kelpdiver said:

Can you name a non crappy one that is out of business?

Click to expand...

EMC had one that was a competitor of Carbonite, but I can't recall the name. [Added: Mozy]

Yahoo offered free file storage for a while, but (at that time) they didn't qualify as non-crappy.

MySpace was not cloud backup per se, but they are not big nowadays. For a while, members could find old Photos on Facebook, but no more.

Any service offering you storage for free (truly, not as part of a paid arrangement) is running at a loss and will cease to at some point. Mozy however was acquired, rather than failed, though they were like many that initially had teaser rates and then started charging appropriately.

At you point out- it takes considerable effort to upload that much content. So do it with someone that is actually making money on the service. And if the vendor is the kmart of its world (yahoo), starting thinking about a replacement.

kelpdiver · Dec 14, 2021

Sean Nelson said:
kelpdiver said:

Sean Nelson said:

That's why you have multiple backups, and why you verify them from time to time.

Click to expand...

the uncertainty is unacceptable to me. You have multiple failure points, including the bank.

Click to expand...

You seem to be confusing redundancy with multiple failure paths.

If half the brakes in your car fail, you will know, either because the car reports it, or because the braking performance is degraded.

while you're glossing over the fact that your redundancy is unreliable, and whose current status is not readily verifiable. I already made it clear that this uncertainty in my opinion means it cannot be trusted. You're relying on your house never burning down or thieves not being as smart as you for the local copy, and your offsite copy could be MIA.

For me, that's akin to having a get out of jail free card for Rudy Gulliani. Hopefully he's alive when the time of need comes. But who can tell?

Sean Nelson · Dec 14, 2021

kelpdiver said:
Sean Nelson said:

kelpdiver said:

Sean Nelson said:

That's why you have multiple backups, and why you verify them from time to time.

Click to expand...

the uncertainty is unacceptable to me. You have multiple failure points, including the bank.

Click to expand...

You seem to be confusing redundancy with multiple failure paths.

Click to expand...

If half the brakes in your car fail, you will know, either because the car reports it, or because the braking performance is degraded.

Yes, that is why you verify. Did you read what I wrote? How I've been verifying for decades and have never had an issue and this is why I have confidence in my backups? That there is virtually no likelihood of several independent failures taking out my main system and all of my backups, stored in multiple locations, all at the same time?

CAcreeks · Dec 14, 2021

kelpdiver said:
CAcreeks said:

kelpdiver said:

Can you name a non crappy one that is out of business?

Click to expand...

EMC had one that was a competitor of Carbonite, but I can't recall the name. [Added: Mozy]

Click to expand...

Any service offering you storage for free (truly, not as part of a paid arrangement) is running at a loss and will cease to at some point. Mozy however was acquired, rather than failed, though they were like many that initially had teaser rates and then started charging appropriately.

Yup.

I wondered "what happened to Mozy customers?" and found this 2018 page at the Backblaze site saying

As part of the transition from Mozy to Carbonite, Mozy customers will need to re-upload all of their data to Carbonite.

Loading…

www.backblaze.com

Chris Noble · Dec 15, 2021

CAcreeks said:
kelpdiver said:

CAcreeks said:

kelpdiver said:

Can you name a non crappy one that is out of business?

Click to expand...

EMC had one that was a competitor of Carbonite, but I can't recall the name. [Added: Mozy]

Click to expand...

Any service offering you storage for free (truly, not as part of a paid arrangement) is running at a loss and will cease to at some point. Mozy however was acquired, rather than failed, though they were like many that initially had teaser rates and then started charging appropriately.

Click to expand...

Yup.

I wondered "what happened to Mozy customers?" and found this 2018 page at the Backblaze site saying

As part of the transition from Mozy to Carbonite, Mozy customers will need to re-upload all of their data to Carbonite.

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/farewell-to-mozy-backup/

Fair point. It's worth checking out how well-established your vendor is. And "free" is never a long-term business strategy. But even this example shows that you have time to switch vendors if yours is going out of business or if their pricing becomes uncompetitive. I think I'm pretty safe with AWS, but I can move my entire versioned backup to Google's service in a few days in the background if I decide to switch.

Chris Noble · Dec 15, 2021

Sean Nelson said:
That's why you have multiple backups, and why you verify them from time to time.

How does Extended SMART compared to chkdsk? Other options for checking the disk itself? And what's been your failure rate over the years?

Longterm storage of backup HDD : Waterproof container?

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