Printing w/ICC profile flattens image too much

I haven’t uploaded here before but if I get a chance I’ll try when I get a chance. I posted this in the FM forum as well, but will try here too, as I haven’t been able to really get the picture how I’d like.

‘I’ve been using MPIX and their Giclee prints with their ICC profile to print hundreds of pictures. While understanding how printed images (I’ve been using semi-gloss, but have tried most if their papers including gloss)are never the same compared to an online digital image, typically I can adjust as needed (in many cases, adding sharpening, saturation, and sometimes lightening up certain colors). But some images present a bigger challenge. Images with a black/night background (like nightscapes w/bright lights, simply get washed out or flattened way too much. It’s like a white sheen gets applied. I’m curious to know what others people have done who have seen the same thing. At this point I’m thinking the only way is to drastically change the media. Metal maybe?

Thanks

Voyager46 said:

I haven’t uploaded here before but if I get a chance I’ll try when I get a chance. I posted this in the FM forum as well, but will try here too, as I haven’t been able to really get the picture how I’d like.

‘I’ve been using MPIX and their Giclee prints with their ICC profile to print hundreds of pictures. While understanding how printed images (I’ve been using semi-gloss, but have tried most if their papers including gloss)are never the same compared to an online digital image, typically I can adjust as needed (in many cases, adding sharpening, saturation, and sometimes lightening up certain colors). But some images present a bigger challenge. Images with a black/night background (like nightscapes w/bright lights, simply get washed out or flattened way too much. It’s like a white sheen gets applied. I’m curious to know what others people have done who have seen the same thing. At this point I’m thinking the only way is to drastically change the media. Metal maybe?

Thanks

Click to expand...

Are you using a calibrated and profiled monitor? What is the brightness of your monitor?

The most usual cause of prints to dark or lacking contrast, when compared to the image on the monitor, is that the monitor is too bright.

See for example https://www.northlight-images.co.uk/why-are-my-prints-too-dark/

or (choose the video "Why are my prints too dark").

For a discussion on choice of paper for different subjects, see Keith Cooper's recent post here: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65722733 .

Hi, where do I start ......,,. folk often think that they don't need to know as much as a home printer to use a service to make their prints. Wrong ! only difference is that we send to our desktop printer and you send to the service and their printer. Often we have it easier because we work with the kit day after day and build up a far better idea. I dont know you or your knowledge level, so lets start with a list of reading , and then you can come back with questions

1. Screen calibration
2. Screen and image gamut
3. Soft proofing
4. Contrast control with curves
5. Black level compensation
6. Whitepoint of assessing light

How are you with that list ?

--
Gear ... what I need to get the job done , after all you don't see mechanics listing their brand of spanner as a qualification .

I’ll try to respond to both…

‘I use Datacolor Spyder X for my screen calibration. My screen brightness is on the lower side (the utility measures it as well as the room brightness).

Also, using CaptureOne I’ve loaded the profile from MPIX and Its selected in my output recipe. From a soft proofing standpoint, it will mirror the actual output very close which is helpful. I’ve watched quite a few videos on this process as well and it seems to work.

Regarding your other areas for use and understanding. I may not be able to perfectly “define” each one, but feel very comfortable using and adjusting my images with those methods. I watch a LOT of Paul Reiffer’s live editing sessions using Capture One. It’s been phenomenal for me. Really helped me understand there are so many ways/tools to process images within their software. I feel like I can somewhat easily get my raw images (on the screen) to the exposure, color and tones I like. But as mentioned, applying the MPIX print profile has been VERY helpful for me to get a good preview of what things will look printed and allowed me to make the proper adjustment. All but for those very dark backgrounds showing lighted images in the foreground.

There was another video I recently watched by Mark Denney called Printing mistakes…, he showed a very similar thing I’ve experienced. But kind of skipped how he compensated.

This is probably not enough info for you to help me, most likely, but that’s okay. Just was curious to hear other experiences.

Some places (like Costco) apply an automatic correction to every print unless you tell them not to. Make sure this isn't happening to your print.

One last thing I just learned. I may have been using the ICC profile wrong.

from the other forum the comment was “I know nothing about their specific profile, but usually you soft proof by enabling the profile in your raw converter, and then make the color corrections to the file based upon how the ICC profile affected it. Then, submit as you normally would, using sRGB or AdobeRGB as the embedded profile (in other words, don’t embed the printer profile itself).

I was setup for the ICC profile for viewing/soft proofing, but would also, embed the printer profile itself for output. I’ll be very interred in how prints will look going forward. It’s funny, all the Capture One videos I watched never really got into the details or change needed for output for print. Most concentrated on how to setup the soft proof view….

That makes a lot of sense. If the only images that come out wrong are ones with a very dark background, Mpix may be trying to "correct" the exposure.

That was one if the first things I had changed with MPIX. When I check out now, they have a box auto checked that says don’t color correct. When I first started with them, they were color correcting and I didn’t have their ICC profile.

So it’s been an ongoing/learning process. I hope the last step mentioned above helps (about not embedding their printer profile on output)

Voyager46 said:

One last thing I just learned. I may have been using the ICC profile wrong.

from the other forum the comment was “I know nothing about their specific profile, but usually you soft proof by enabling the profile in your raw converter, and then make the color corrections to the file based upon how the ICC profile affected it. Then, submit as you normally would, using sRGB or AdobeRGB as the embedded profile (in other words, don’t embed the printer profile itself).

I was setup for the ICC profile for viewing/soft proofing, but would also, embed the printer profile itself for output. I’ll be very interred in how prints will look going forward. It’s funny, all the Capture One videos I watched never really got into the details or change needed for output for print. Most concentrated on how to setup the soft proof view….

Click to expand...

I'm sure you're doing this right, but just checking the terminology: when you say you are embedding a profile, I assume you mean converting to that colour space AND embedding the associated profile?

Embedding a profile without also converting the image to the colour space described by that profile would be nonsense.

Before I answer I’m headed back to another Capture One video to verify and make sure I’m not mistaking this process and descriptions.

‘I take it, there are not many Capture One users here?”

To finish my thoughts and what I learned and hopefully this helps others when using third party printing. Below is a quote directly from Mpix.

The output profile we are providing is intended to be used in conjunction with Adobe® Photoshop® or Adobe® Lightroom® Soft Proofing options. Please, DO NOT convert/embed an image with the printer profile. The resulting products will be printed incorrectly. All files received should be submitted in sRGB color space.

They mention Adobe but same applies to Capture One. You make your changes while viewing using their color profile, but output for print is changed/submitted using an sRGB color space. I was viewing using their profile, but I was also submitting/outputting using the same profile, not changing to sRGB color space profile.

I believe this is different than when printing using your own printer in your studio. At some point whenever I get my own printer I’ll have to verify that..

Same with desktop printing, your icc profile is loaded into soft proof software to offer same view as the paper would offer for your image.

I always send to print in aRB or Pro Photo and 16 bits on the desktop, the icc is a correction profile to match a piece of equipment, NOT a colour profile.

Voyager46 said:

To finish my thoughts and what I learned and hopefully this helps others when using third party printing. Below is a quote directly from Mpix.

The output profile we are providing is intended to be used in conjunction with Adobe® Photoshop® or Adobe® Lightroom® Soft Proofing options. Please, DO NOT convert/embed an image with the printer profile. The resulting products will be printed incorrectly. All files received should be submitted in sRGB color space.

They mention Adobe but same applies to Capture One. You make your changes while viewing using their color profile, but output for print is changed/submitted using an sRGB color space. I was viewing using their profile, but I was also submitting/outputting using the same profile, not changing to sRGB color space profile.

I believe this is different than when printing using your own printer in your studio. At some point whenever I get my own printer I’ll have to verify that..

Click to expand...

You lose a lot of color saturation when you're limited to sRGB. I'd look around for a print shop that allows you to send them at least Adobe RGB but preferably Pro Photo RGB. They do exist.

The other thing to find out is whether they are giving you a inkjet print or a type C RA-4 chemical print. Inkjet prints look a lot better.

Voyager46 said:

I haven’t uploaded here before but if I get a chance I’ll try when I get a chance. I posted this in the FM forum as well, but will try here too, as I haven’t been able to really get the picture how I’d like.

‘I’ve been using MPIX and their Giclee prints with their ICC profile to print hundreds of pictures. While understanding how printed images (I’ve been using semi-gloss, but have tried most if their papers including gloss)are never the same compared to an online digital image, typically I can adjust as needed (in many cases, adding sharpening, saturation, and sometimes lightening up certain colors). But some images present a bigger challenge. Images with a black/night background (like nightscapes w/bright lights, simply get washed out or flattened way too much. It’s like a white sheen gets applied. I’m curious to know what others people have done who have seen the same thing. At this point I’m thinking the only way is to drastically change the media. Metal maybe?

Thanks

Click to expand...

It is a lot easier to control your prints if you do it with your own printer and select an appropriate paper for the print. In addition, to get the best results, IMO, you need to recognize that prints never can look exactly like what you saw on the screen, even with soft proofing. Generally speaking for landscape scenes, you may wish, for example, to bump up local contrast and color using 16-bit files to avoid any hint of posterization. That may just be a beginning in post to achieve what you want from a print, including, for example, changing color relationships. For people shots skin tones must be considered along with potential blemish issues. Different papers will affect appearance of your print. You might be able to get decent prints from an outside print service, and some are very good, but having control of the entire process makes things much easier. And, bear in mind that the file you send to the printer may not be at its best on the screen, so preserving a separate file or files for printing on particular papers is an option. Over-processing should be avoided, but there is no hard-and-fast standard, which is really a matter of personal taste.

mike earussi said:

Voyager46 said:

To finish my thoughts and what I learned and hopefully this helps others when using third party printing. Below is a quote directly from Mpix.

The output profile we are providing is intended to be used in conjunction with Adobe® Photoshop® or Adobe® Lightroom® Soft Proofing options. Please, DO NOT convert/embed an image with the printer profile. The resulting products will be printed incorrectly. All files received should be submitted in sRGB color space.

They mention Adobe but same applies to Capture One. You make your changes while viewing using their color profile, but output for print is changed/submitted using an sRGB color space. I was viewing using their profile, but I was also submitting/outputting using the same profile, not changing to sRGB color space profile.

I believe this is different than when printing using your own printer in your studio. At some point whenever I get my own printer I’ll have to verify that..

Click to expand...

You lose a lot of color saturation when you're limited to sRGB. I'd look around for a print shop that allows you to send them at least Adobe RGB but preferably Pro Photo RGB. They do exist.

The other thing to find out is whether they are giving you a inkjet print or a type C RA-4 chemical print. Inkjet prints look a lot better.

Click to expand...

Well I’m open for suggestions from anyone using an online print service, that’s for sure. I selected MPIX because I use their Giclee prints. This is supposedly “seven dye based inks giving ultra-detailed image resolution”. Yes….marketing speak somewhat.

And at least they profile for proofing while many I’ve seen do not.

BUT, I have seen a new one called Saal Digital. It looks like they can provide ICC profiles for each material/finish option, where as MPIX does not. Also looks like they can take sRGB, Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB color spaces. I’m curious about a few other things that I’m guessing means more to Lightroom or Adobe users. Next to their downloadable ICC profiles it mentions: color space (RGB or CMYK), preserve CMYK numbers (activate or deactivate), Rendering intent (perceptual or relative colorimetric), Black Point compensation (activate- no deactivate, just activate for all), Simulate paper color (deactivate for all).

I’m assuming those options are available with Lightroom along with outputting in one if the color spaces listed above? The only option I see in CaptureOne (and it’s in the menu under preferences, NOT part of the output recipe, is changing to either perceptual or relative color metric. I wasn’t able to notice a difference viewing.




Lastly I wholeheartedly agree with Euell and that sending out to a 3rd party will never give me the same control as printing myself. But if I keep doing my due diligence I’m hoping to get close and gain some consistency. Even sending prints experimenting is MUCH less expensive than buying a printer and all the accessories at the moment.

an icc profile is for a specific printer using a single specific paper, this is critical because it is a list of alterations needed to give the correct reproduction with those inks out of that printer onto the paper profiled.

If they say they have 1 generic profile for their printing service ....... run !

Second strong suggestion , forget CMYK, you never heard it and do not want anything to do with it.

Ken60 said:

an icc profile is for a specific printer using a single specific paper, this is critical because it is a list of alterations needed to give the correct reproduction with those inks out of that printer onto the paper profiled.

If they say they have 1 generic profile for their printing service ....... run !

Second strong suggestion , forget CMYK, you never heard it and do not want anything to do with it.

Click to expand...

, agree. Just hate potentially starting over with a new company.

At least I’m now much more familiar with what I need to do.

Thanks everyone

Euell said:

Voyager46 said:

I haven’t uploaded here before but if I get a chance I’ll try when I get a chance. I posted this in the FM forum as well, but will try here too, as I haven’t been able to really get the picture how I’d like.

‘I’ve been using MPIX and their Giclee prints with their ICC profile to print hundreds of pictures. While understanding how printed images (I’ve been using semi-gloss, but have tried most if their papers including gloss)are never the same compared to an online digital image, typically I can adjust as needed (in many cases, adding sharpening, saturation, and sometimes lightening up certain colors). But some images present a bigger challenge. Images with a black/night background (like nightscapes w/bright lights, simply get washed out or flattened way too much. It’s like a white sheen gets applied. I’m curious to know what others people have done who have seen the same thing. At this point I’m thinking the only way is to drastically change the media. Metal maybe?

Thanks

Click to expand...

It is a lot easier to control your prints if you do it with your own printer and select an appropriate paper for the print. In addition, to get the best results, IMO, you need to recognize that prints never can look exactly like what you saw on the screen, even with soft proofing. Generally speaking for landscape scenes, you may wish, for example, to bump up local contrast and color using 16-bit files to avoid any hint of posterization. That may just be a beginning in post to achieve what you want from a print, including, for example, changing color relationships. For people shots skin tones must be considered along with potential blemish issues. Different papers will affect appearance of your print. You might be able to get decent prints from an outside print service, and some are very good, but having control of the entire process makes things much easier. And, bear in mind that the file you send to the printer may not be at its best on the screen, so preserving a separate file or files for printing on particular papers is an option. Over-processing should be avoided, but there is no hard-and-fast standard, which is really a matter of personal taste.

Click to expand...

With everything that you stated here!!! I used the big labs and though the prints were acceptable, they never gave me the results that I could achieve by printing myself. I do a lot of portraits and many times I catch a flaw on the first print, and then see a different flaw on an iteration a print or two later, etc. etc. It's easy to fix your own prints. I may decide to also crop differently when the print may be framed.

Bob P.

MPIX, White House Custom Color, and AdoramaPix (at the time). About 4 years ago.

I sent 3 reference test print files to each lab. 2 weeks later I sent the same 3 print files to each lab. I again sent the 3 files to the same labs 4 weeks later. No prints ever matched from the same lab. I used the same lab settings, no auto-correction. Yes they were close and acceptable to most viewers, but no consistency, you could easily see the subtle differences. This is why I only print myself, I govern my own destiny, and have immediate results................

Bob P.

Voyager46 said:

mike earussi said:

Voyager46 said:

To finish my thoughts and what I learned and hopefully this helps others when using third party printing. Below is a quote directly from Mpix.

The output profile we are providing is intended to be used in conjunction with Adobe® Photoshop® or Adobe® Lightroom® Soft Proofing options. Please, DO NOT convert/embed an image with the printer profile. The resulting products will be printed incorrectly. All files received should be submitted in sRGB color space.

They mention Adobe but same applies to Capture One. You make your changes while viewing using their color profile, but output for print is changed/submitted using an sRGB color space. I was viewing using their profile, but I was also submitting/outputting using the same profile, not changing to sRGB color space profile.

I believe this is different than when printing using your own printer in your studio. At some point whenever I get my own printer I’ll have to verify that..

Click to expand...

You lose a lot of color saturation when you're limited to sRGB. I'd look around for a print shop that allows you to send them at least Adobe RGB but preferably Pro Photo RGB. They do exist.

The other thing to find out is whether they are giving you a inkjet print or a type C RA-4 chemical print. Inkjet prints look a lot better.

Click to expand...

Well I’m open for suggestions from anyone using an online print service, that’s for sure. I selected MPIX because I use their Giclee prints. This is supposedly “seven dye based inks giving ultra-detailed image resolution”. Yes….marketing speak somewhat.

Click to expand...

Dye based inks don't last very long, especially if they're not OEM. Most modern inkjet printers use 12 pigment inks. Find out what printer and what inks they're using. If they won't tell you then go elsewhere.

Voyager46 said:

And at least they profile for proofing while many I’ve seen do not.
BUT, I have seen a new one called Saal Digital. It looks like they can provide ICC profiles for each material/finish option, where as MPIX does not. Also looks like they can take sRGB, Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB color spaces. I’m curious about a few other things that I’m guessing means more to Lightroom or Adobe users. Next to their downloadable ICC profiles it mentions: color space (RGB or CMYK), preserve CMYK numbers (activate or deactivate), Rendering intent (perceptual or relative colorimetric), Black Point compensation (activate- no deactivate, just activate for all), Simulate paper color (deactivate for all).

Click to expand...

CMYK is only for 4 color offset printing, so unless you're wanting to print 1,000 copies of something you don't need it.

Voyager46 said:

I’m assuming those options are available with Lightroom along with outputting in one if the color spaces listed above? The only option I see in CaptureOne (and it’s in the menu under preferences, NOT part of the output recipe, is changing to either perceptual or relative color metric. I wasn’t able to notice a difference viewing.

Lastly I wholeheartedly agree with Euell and that sending out to a 3rd party will never give me the same control as printing myself. But if I keep doing my due diligence I’m hoping to get close and gain some consistency. Even sending prints experimenting is MUCH less expensive than buying a printer and all the accessories at the moment.

Click to expand...

Look at Bay Photo's web site. They offer a lot of options in different price points. I'm not saying you should use them, but if you thoroughly look through their site you'll have a much better idea of all the options that are available in the market.