The hour of truth has struck

What "truth"?

I wish people would stop trying to insist that M43 is all things to all photographers.

It's a great format, and it has many advantages in many situations. But, so does FF. And you do both a disservice by trying to equate them.

Guess what? Most cameras are pretty good these days. But if you are shooting in situations where one system is stronger than the other, then you will make yourself utterly nuts trying to get what you need from the other system.

Case in point: I use both M43 and FF. I can take my GX9 out with the PL 100-400mm, and walk around with it in the woods, and get bird and other wildlife shots without arguing with my back or wrists about the weight. To get that reach on a FF, I would be looking at over 4lbs of lens, vs 2 (with a much lighter camera body). Big difference.

On the other hand, for delicate flower work, the FF has an advantage. I can shoot at ISO 800 without even thinking about noise and loss of detail, and the tonal and color gradation captured by the FF sensors is just better in these situations, as there are enormous color variations in flower petals that are very difficult for smaller sensors to capture (this is where more photons really matter). M43 can be very close in just the right light, and at base ISO it's very good, but anywhere north of that in this kind of shooting tests the limits of the system, and FF makes much more sense in this case.

So, these comparisons mean...nothing.

Pick the gear for what and how you shoot, and be happy.

-J
This is how you get FF to M43 equivalent images:

FF: f/16, ISO 800

M43: f/8, ISO 200

Both shots have equivalent DOF and are at the point where diffraction starts to be an issue.
This is true but not the whole truth.

With high MP count FF sensors, even at the equivalence, it provides more resolution. I point this out not because this makes FF a "better" camera ("better" camera is the one that suits your need/want the best) but to illustrate what is not equivalent.

Processed with DxO PL4 w/DeepPRIME NR

A7R3 ISO6400 M1.3 ISO 1600
A7R3 ISO6400 M1.3 ISO 1600

Note the hatching mark on the man's sleeve in the drawing and more smoother tonality.
Is the left the em1? The left image to me looks washed out.
I suppose you forgot /s or is it that you don't know how to darken an image...
I shoot M43 and FF as well, but I generally prefer the shooting experience with Olympus so that is my most used system.

It used to be that to shoot sports, wildlife, dance, etc. I needed to use FF. That is less the case now, so I do more with M43. It used to be that I would still shoot M43 for the electronic shutter to avoid the noise of DSLRs (mirror slap, mechanical shutter), but that is less of an issue now (although FF mirrorless does not compare to M43 at similar price points).

I have two criteria: right tool for the job, and to I find the user interface more "usable".

Even now, getting things done that I want done is usually easier with Olympus than other systems.
True.

FF cannot beat my PEN-F with 14-150mm lens for carry anywhere camera but phone cam image is getting better also, so I'm not sure how much longer I would feel the desire to carry around PEN-F :-(

My intention is to point out TIQ (Technical Image Quality) difference of FF sensor cameras for those who think that because of DOF, camera performances are equal.

What that difference means is really up to the individual photographers.


--
My gear list is the opinion of DPR and not necessarily of my own.
 
You're absolutely right, the history of digital technology is a great waste of time for many people.
Several photographers seem to know everything, and that's good for them.
Personally, I do not attend and I do not read the subjects that do not interest me.
And I intervene even less, life is too short.
 
What "truth"?

I wish people would stop trying to insist that M43 is all things to all photographers.

It's a great format, and it has many advantages in many situations. But, so does FF. And you do both a disservice by trying to equate them.

Guess what? Most cameras are pretty good these days. But if you are shooting in situations where one system is stronger than the other, then you will make yourself utterly nuts trying to get what you need from the other system.

Case in point: I use both M43 and FF. I can take my GX9 out with the PL 100-400mm, and walk around with it in the woods, and get bird and other wildlife shots without arguing with my back or wrists about the weight. To get that reach on a FF, I would be looking at over 4lbs of lens, vs 2 (with a much lighter camera body). Big difference.

On the other hand, for delicate flower work, the FF has an advantage. I can shoot at ISO 800 without even thinking about noise and loss of detail, and the tonal and color gradation captured by the FF sensors is just better in these situations, as there are enormous color variations in flower petals that are very difficult for smaller sensors to capture (this is where more photons really matter). M43 can be very close in just the right light, and at base ISO it's very good, but anywhere north of that in this kind of shooting tests the limits of the system, and FF makes much more sense in this case.

So, these comparisons mean...nothing.

Pick the gear for what and how you shoot, and be happy.

-J
This is how you get FF to M43 equivalent images:

FF: f/16, ISO 800

M43: f/8, ISO 200

Both shots have equivalent DOF and are at the point where diffraction starts to be an issue.
This is true but not the whole truth.

With high MP count FF sensors, even at the equivalence, it provides more resolution. I point this out not because this makes FF a "better" camera ("better" camera is the one that suits your need/want the best) but to illustrate what is not equivalent.

Processed with DxO PL4 w/DeepPRIME NR

A7R3 ISO6400 M1.3 ISO 1600
A7R3 ISO6400 M1.3 ISO 1600

Note the hatching mark on the man's sleeve in the drawing and more smoother tonality.
Is the left the em1? The left image to me looks washed out.
I suppose you forgot /s or is it that you don't know how to darken an image...
Doesn't answer my question. Perhaps you do not know how to answer questions?
I shoot M43 and FF as well, but I generally prefer the shooting experience with Olympus so that is my most used system.

It used to be that to shoot sports, wildlife, dance, etc. I needed to use FF. That is less the case now, so I do more with M43. It used to be that I would still shoot M43 for the electronic shutter to avoid the noise of DSLRs (mirror slap, mechanical shutter), but that is less of an issue now (although FF mirrorless does not compare to M43 at similar price points).

I have two criteria: right tool for the job, and to I find the user interface more "usable".

Even now, getting things done that I want done is usually easier with Olympus than other systems.
True.

FF cannot beat my PEN-F with 14-150mm lens for carry anywhere camera but phone cam image is getting better also, so I'm not sure how much longer I would feel the desire to carry around PEN-F :-(

My intention is to point out TIQ (Technical Image Quality) difference of FF sensor cameras for those who think that because of DOF, camera performances are equal.

What that difference means is really up to the individual photographers.
--
My gear list is the opinion of DPR and not necessarily of my own.
 
What "truth"?

I wish people would stop trying to insist that M43 is all things to all photographers.

It's a great format, and it has many advantages in many situations. But, so does FF. And you do both a disservice by trying to equate them.

Guess what? Most cameras are pretty good these days. But if you are shooting in situations where one system is stronger than the other, then you will make yourself utterly nuts trying to get what you need from the other system.

Case in point: I use both M43 and FF. I can take my GX9 out with the PL 100-400mm, and walk around with it in the woods, and get bird and other wildlife shots without arguing with my back or wrists about the weight. To get that reach on a FF, I would be looking at over 4lbs of lens, vs 2 (with a much lighter camera body). Big difference.

On the other hand, for delicate flower work, the FF has an advantage. I can shoot at ISO 800 without even thinking about noise and loss of detail, and the tonal and color gradation captured by the FF sensors is just better in these situations, as there are enormous color variations in flower petals that are very difficult for smaller sensors to capture (this is where more photons really matter). M43 can be very close in just the right light, and at base ISO it's very good, but anywhere north of that in this kind of shooting tests the limits of the system, and FF makes much more sense in this case.

So, these comparisons mean...nothing.

Pick the gear for what and how you shoot, and be happy.

-J
This is how you get FF to M43 equivalent images:

FF: f/16, ISO 800

M43: f/8, ISO 200

Both shots have equivalent DOF and are at the point where diffraction starts to be an issue.
This is true but not the whole truth.

With high MP count FF sensors, even at the equivalence, it provides more resolution. I point this out not because this makes FF a "better" camera ("better" camera is the one that suits your need/want the best) but to illustrate what is not equivalent.

Processed with DxO PL4 w/DeepPRIME NR

A7R3 ISO6400 M1.3 ISO 1600
A7R3 ISO6400 M1.3 ISO 1600

Note the hatching mark on the man's sleeve in the drawing and more smoother tonality.
Is the left the em1? The left image to me looks washed out.
I suppose you forgot /s or is it that you don't know how to darken an image...
Doesn't answer my question. Perhaps you do not know how to answer questions?
I'm trying to help you to see the answer yourself...



a852c8d66d4e45bc8ec115ef65f87ca7.jpg

Well?
I shoot M43 and FF as well, but I generally prefer the shooting experience with Olympus so that is my most used system.

It used to be that to shoot sports, wildlife, dance, etc. I needed to use FF. That is less the case now, so I do more with M43. It used to be that I would still shoot M43 for the electronic shutter to avoid the noise of DSLRs (mirror slap, mechanical shutter), but that is less of an issue now (although FF mirrorless does not compare to M43 at similar price points).

I have two criteria: right tool for the job, and to I find the user interface more "usable".

Even now, getting things done that I want done is usually easier with Olympus than other systems.
True.

FF cannot beat my PEN-F with 14-150mm lens for carry anywhere camera but phone cam image is getting better also, so I'm not sure how much longer I would feel the desire to carry around PEN-F :-(

My intention is to point out TIQ (Technical Image Quality) difference of FF sensor cameras for those who think that because of DOF, camera performances are equal.

What that difference means is really up to the individual photographers.


--
My gear list is the opinion of DPR and not necessarily of my own.
 
What "truth"?

I wish people would stop trying to insist that M43 is all things to all photographers.

It's a great format, and it has many advantages in many situations. But, so does FF. And you do both a disservice by trying to equate them.

Guess what? Most cameras are pretty good these days. But if you are shooting in situations where one system is stronger than the other, then you will make yourself utterly nuts trying to get what you need from the other system.

Case in point: I use both M43 and FF. I can take my GX9 out with the PL 100-400mm, and walk around with it in the woods, and get bird and other wildlife shots without arguing with my back or wrists about the weight. To get that reach on a FF, I would be looking at over 4lbs of lens, vs 2 (with a much lighter camera body). Big difference.

On the other hand, for delicate flower work, the FF has an advantage. I can shoot at ISO 800 without even thinking about noise and loss of detail, and the tonal and color gradation captured by the FF sensors is just better in these situations, as there are enormous color variations in flower petals that are very difficult for smaller sensors to capture (this is where more photons really matter). M43 can be very close in just the right light, and at base ISO it's very good, but anywhere north of that in this kind of shooting tests the limits of the system, and FF makes much more sense in this case.

So, these comparisons mean...nothing.

Pick the gear for what and how you shoot, and be happy.

-J
This is how you get FF to M43 equivalent images:

FF: f/16, ISO 800

M43: f/8, ISO 200

Both shots have equivalent DOF and are at the point where diffraction starts to be an issue.
This is true but not the whole truth.

With high MP count FF sensors, even at the equivalence, it provides more resolution. I point this out not because this makes FF a "better" camera ("better" camera is the one that suits your need/want the best) but to illustrate what is not equivalent.

Processed with DxO PL4 w/DeepPRIME NR

A7R3 ISO6400 M1.3 ISO 1600
A7R3 ISO6400 M1.3 ISO 1600

Note the hatching mark on the man's sleeve in the drawing and more smoother tonality.
Is the left the em1? The left image to me looks washed out.
I can see area blue and yellow discolouration now in the left image. Did you process a jpeg?
 
What "truth"?

I wish people would stop trying to insist that M43 is all things to all photographers.

It's a great format, and it has many advantages in many situations. But, so does FF. And you do both a disservice by trying to equate them.

Guess what? Most cameras are pretty good these days. But if you are shooting in situations where one system is stronger than the other, then you will make yourself utterly nuts trying to get what you need from the other system.

Case in point: I use both M43 and FF. I can take my GX9 out with the PL 100-400mm, and walk around with it in the woods, and get bird and other wildlife shots without arguing with my back or wrists about the weight. To get that reach on a FF, I would be looking at over 4lbs of lens, vs 2 (with a much lighter camera body). Big difference.

On the other hand, for delicate flower work, the FF has an advantage. I can shoot at ISO 800 without even thinking about noise and loss of detail, and the tonal and color gradation captured by the FF sensors is just better in these situations, as there are enormous color variations in flower petals that are very difficult for smaller sensors to capture (this is where more photons really matter). M43 can be very close in just the right light, and at base ISO it's very good, but anywhere north of that in this kind of shooting tests the limits of the system, and FF makes much more sense in this case.

So, these comparisons mean...nothing.

Pick the gear for what and how you shoot, and be happy.

-J
This is how you get FF to M43 equivalent images:

FF: f/16, ISO 800

M43: f/8, ISO 200

Both shots have equivalent DOF and are at the point where diffraction starts to be an issue.
This is true but not the whole truth.

With high MP count FF sensors, even at the equivalence, it provides more resolution. I point this out not because this makes FF a "better" camera ("better" camera is the one that suits your need/want the best) but to illustrate what is not equivalent.

Processed with DxO PL4 w/DeepPRIME NR

A7R3 ISO6400 M1.3 ISO 1600
A7R3 ISO6400 M1.3 ISO 1600

Note the hatching mark on the man's sleeve in the drawing and more smoother tonality.
Is the left the em1? The left image to me looks washed out.
I can see area blue and yellow discolouration now in the left image. Did you process a jpeg?
A bit surprised that you noticed the false coloration now. Look up Moiré pattern and why most cameras used to have AA filter. Occasional false coloration or Moiré pattern is considered acceptable for the sharper image most of the time, for the most photographers who prefers the sharpness.

And it's not a discoloration in that the original pen and ink (?) drawing had no color.

dba45ea460024aae9bdb813ae37a2275.jpg

Now, yes, the JPEG was processed to remove the false coloration and match the brightness.

--
My gear list is the opinion of DPR and not necessarily of my own.
 
Last edited:
Yet another justification thread that is a tiresome exercise in futility. I'm curious, don't you people get bored over arguing to death whether one format is superior to another or whether one format is sufficient or whatever you keep arguing about?
No. I don't get bored about learning all things photographic (and practicing) , both technical and esthetics and then will share my knowledge if I think someone has misconception and/or I will be shown to have been wrong. Which would be a pleasure to stand corrected.

I try to point out the differences in TIQ (Technical Image Quality) possible with FF since I see a few post that tries justify 4/3rd for being equal or nearly equal or don't see the difference from FF; I don't ever claim which one is better except for myself, since I know what I am about to shoot. And even that changes where/when/what I am shooting.

How can anyone generalize what camera is better for everyone...

--
My gear list is the opinion of DPR and not necessarily of my own.
 
Last edited:
Yet another justification thread that is a tiresome exercise in futility. I'm curious, don't you people get bored over arguing to death whether one format is superior to another or whether one format is sufficient or whatever you keep arguing about?
No. I don't get bored about learning all things photographic (and practicing) , both technical and esthetics and then will share my knowledge if I think someone has misconception and/or I will be shown to have been wrong. Which would be a pleasure to stand corrected.

I try to point out the differences in TIQ (Technical Image Quality) possible with FF since I see a few post that tries justify 4/3rd for being equal or nearly equal or don't see the difference from FF; I don't ever claim which one is better except for myself, since I know what I am about to shoot. And even that changes where/when/what I am shooting.

How can anyone generalize what camera is better for everyone...
I enjoy technical discussions in this forum too but the m43 vs 35mm topic is discussed to death. My question by the way was pointed to everyone who tirelessly keeps arguing all the time about the same irrelevant minutia.
 
We can't hide anything from you!
Yet the irony seems to escape you ... too bad
No- you may want to consider that you are not as correct or right as you may think ;-)

of course I welcome any clarifications ;-)

or maybe write more clearly who knows ;-)

 
Last edited:
Yet another justification thread that is a tiresome exercise in futility. I'm curious, don't you people get bored over arguing to death whether one format is superior to another or whether one format is sufficient or whatever you keep arguing about?
No. I don't get bored about learning all things photographic (and practicing) , both technical and esthetics and then will share my knowledge if I think someone has misconception and/or I will be shown to have been wrong. Which would be a pleasure to stand corrected.

I try to point out the differences in TIQ (Technical Image Quality) possible with FF since I see a few post that tries justify 4/3rd for being equal or nearly equal or don't see the difference from FF; I don't ever claim which one is better except for myself, since I know what I am about to shoot. And even that changes where/when/what I am shooting.

How can anyone generalize what camera is better for everyone...
I enjoy technical discussions in this forum too but the m43 vs 35mm topic is discussed to death. My question by the way was pointed to everyone who tirelessly keeps arguing all the time about the same irrelevant minutia.
The only time I get discouraged is when the folks get angry at each other and becomes mud singling.

I don't mind the repeat as much since I forget and/or get a chance to look at it a little differently; however, I do understand your sentiment about repeating the obvious ;-)

And then, there maybe new members who might get some new info...
 
I enjoy technical discussions in this forum too but the m43 vs 35mm topic is discussed to death. My question by the way was pointed to everyone who tirelessly keeps arguing all the time about the same irrelevant minutia.
That was exactly my point with my reply...... I wish this would just get put to bed, and people enjoy M43 for what it is (and there are a lot of things to enjoy about it)....but apparently the sport of trying to make it what it's not is just a thing, here.)

-J
 
I enjoy technical discussions in this forum too but the m43 vs 35mm topic is discussed to death. My question by the way was pointed to everyone who tirelessly keeps arguing all the time about the same irrelevant minutia.
That was exactly my point with my reply...... I wish this would just get put to bed, and people enjoy M43 for what it is (and there are a lot of things to enjoy about it)....but apparently the sport of trying to make it what it's not is just a thing, here.)

-J
I generally agree, but there was nothing really negative in the original post, imo. I will say there is no new information. I don't need a comparison to know an 85 f1.8 lens is different from a 45mm f1.8.
 
I enjoy technical discussions in this forum too but the m43 vs 35mm topic is discussed to death. My question by the way was pointed to everyone who tirelessly keeps arguing all the time about the same irrelevant minutia.
That was exactly my point with my reply...... I wish this would just get put to bed, and people enjoy M43 for what it is (and there are a lot of things to enjoy about it)....but apparently the sport of trying to make it what it's not is just a thing, here.)

-J
Your reply to OP was spot on; however, I felt that what OP has presented was incomplete and he was a good enough of a sport to have a lively back and forth with the friendly jabs in between ;-)

I think we now have a meeting of minds..,

--
My gear list is the opinion of DPR and not necessarily of my own.
 
Last edited:
What "truth"?

I wish people would stop trying to insist that M43 is all things to all photographers.

It's a great format, and it has many advantages in many situations. But, so does FF. And you do both a disservice by trying to equate them.

Guess what? Most cameras are pretty good these days. But if you are shooting in situations where one system is stronger than the other, then you will make yourself utterly nuts trying to get what you need from the other system.

Case in point: I use both M43 and FF. I can take my GX9 out with the PL 100-400mm, and walk around with it in the woods, and get bird and other wildlife shots without arguing with my back or wrists about the weight. To get that reach on a FF, I would be looking at over 4lbs of lens, vs 2 (with a much lighter camera body). Big difference.

On the other hand, for delicate flower work, the FF has an advantage. I can shoot at ISO 800 without even thinking about noise and loss of detail, and the tonal and color gradation captured by the FF sensors is just better in these situations, as there are enormous color variations in flower petals that are very difficult for smaller sensors to capture (this is where more photons really matter). M43 can be very close in just the right light, and at base ISO it's very good, but anywhere north of that in this kind of shooting tests the limits of the system, and FF makes much more sense in this case.

So, these comparisons mean...nothing.

Pick the gear for what and how you shoot, and be happy.

-J
This is how you get FF to M43 equivalent images:

FF: f/16, ISO 800

M43: f/8, ISO 200

Both shots have equivalent DOF and are at the point where diffraction starts to be an issue.
This is true but not the whole truth.

With high MP count FF sensors, even at the equivalence, it provides more resolution. I point this out not because this makes FF a "better" camera ("better" camera is the one that suits your need/want the best) but to illustrate what is not equivalent.

Processed with DxO PL4 w/DeepPRIME NR

A7R3 ISO6400 M1.3 ISO 1600
A7R3 ISO6400 M1.3 ISO 1600

Note the hatching mark on the man's sleeve in the drawing and more smoother tonality.
Is the left the em1? The left image to me looks washed out.
I can see area blue and yellow discolouration now in the left image. Did you process a jpeg?
A bit surprised that you noticed the false coloration now. Look up Moiré pattern and why most cameras used to have AA filter. Occasional false coloration or Moiré pattern is considered acceptable for the sharper image most of the time, for the most photographers who prefers the sharpness.

And it's not a discoloration in that the original pen and ink (?) drawing had no color.

dba45ea460024aae9bdb813ae37a2275.jpg

Now, yes, the JPEG was processed to remove the false coloration and match the brightness.

--
My gear list is the opinion of DPR and not necessarily of my own.
Ok but original question was is the left image the em1? For some reason the exif doesn't show up for me on my laptop. In your original comparison it looked a little worse so I assumed that was the em1, but your caption was the A7R3 and em1.3. I don't know if that means the left is Sony.
 
Je vais vous donner un peu de lecture: https://www.flickr.com/photos/maoby/albums/page2
Je suis sûr qu'une personne comme vous n'aura aucune difficulté à comprendre .;-)
My Pimsleur French lessons are paying g off I got some of that without having to go to Google

maybe if you dropped your attitude a BBQ it and wrote better it would be better for you ;-) Perhaps make it clear the reference you are presenting instead of out of context “cathecism.”

ps: you can write it in Spanish Si vous voulez !
 
This doesn’t answer the question what I see is yet another set of contrived tests to do what exactly?

there’s situations not shown here where FF does notably better It’s all about trade offs

it’s virtually impossible to suggest your link has answer to the question because the requirements and situations s people shoot are vastly more varied than what you are shooting

and the tradeoffs in size/ weight for m43 vs FF is all personal choice
 
What "truth"?

I wish people would stop trying to insist that M43 is all things to all photographers.

It's a great format, and it has many advantages in many situations. But, so does FF. And you do both a disservice by trying to equate them.

Guess what? Most cameras are pretty good these days. But if you are shooting in situations where one system is stronger than the other, then you will make yourself utterly nuts trying to get what you need from the other system.

Case in point: I use both M43 and FF. I can take my GX9 out with the PL 100-400mm, and walk around with it in the woods, and get bird and other wildlife shots without arguing with my back or wrists about the weight. To get that reach on a FF, I would be looking at over 4lbs of lens, vs 2 (with a much lighter camera body). Big difference.

On the other hand, for delicate flower work, the FF has an advantage. I can shoot at ISO 800 without even thinking about noise and loss of detail, and the tonal and color gradation captured by the FF sensors is just better in these situations, as there are enormous color variations in flower petals that are very difficult for smaller sensors to capture (this is where more photons really matter). M43 can be very close in just the right light, and at base ISO it's very good, but anywhere north of that in this kind of shooting tests the limits of the system, and FF makes much more sense in this case.

So, these comparisons mean...nothing.

Pick the gear for what and how you shoot, and be happy.

-J
This is how you get FF to M43 equivalent images:

FF: f/16, ISO 800

M43: f/8, ISO 200

Both shots have equivalent DOF and are at the point where diffraction starts to be an issue.
This is true but not the whole truth.

With high MP count FF sensors, even at the equivalence, it provides more resolution. I point this out not because this makes FF a "better" camera ("better" camera is the one that suits your need/want the best) but to illustrate what is not equivalent.

Processed with DxO PL4 w/DeepPRIME NR

A7R3 ISO6400 M1.3 ISO 1600
A7R3 ISO6400 M1.3 ISO 1600

Note the hatching mark on the man's sleeve in the drawing and more smoother tonality.
Is the left the em1? The left image to me looks washed out.
I can see area blue and yellow discolouration now in the left image. Did you process a jpeg?
A bit surprised that you noticed the false coloration now. Look up Moiré pattern and why most cameras used to have AA filter. Occasional false coloration or Moiré pattern is considered acceptable for the sharper image most of the time, for the most photographers who prefers the sharpness.

And it's not a discoloration in that the original pen and ink (?) drawing had no color.

dba45ea460024aae9bdb813ae37a2275.jpg

Now, yes, the JPEG was processed to remove the false coloration and match the brightness.
Ok but original question was is the left image the em1? For some reason the exif doesn't show up for me on my laptop. In your original comparison it looked a little worse so I assumed that was the em1, but your caption was the A7R3 and em1.3. I don't know if that means the left is Sony.
Left is indeed Sony



7964ccef8ef54f119c38aa3efa469d80.jpg



Do you not see the resolution difference? Sony is ISO 6400 and Oly is ISO 1600.

And since two are stitched, there is no exif data.

--
My gear list is the opinion of DPR and not necessarily of my own.
 

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Je vais vous donner un peu de lecture: https://www.flickr.com/photos/maoby/albums/page2
Je suis sûr qu'une personne comme vous n'aura aucune difficulté à comprendre .;-)
My Pimsleur French lessons are paying g off I got some of that without having to go to Google

maybe if you dropped your attitude a BBQ it and wrote better it would be better for you ;-) Perhaps make it clear the reference you are presenting instead of out of context “cathecism.”

ps: you can write it in Spanish Si vous voulez !
Mutatis Mutandis, Consensus Ad Idem ;-) or Consentimiento al mismo?
 

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