The WOW camera

APS, FF, and several MF sensors are just as slow to update as M43.
Another apologist. The fact is that APS, FF and MF sensors start with an advantage from the get-go.
Very true. But if you think that M43 will somehow magically leapfrog those sensors in most respects, then you will be perpetually disappointed.

To wit: Olympus was first to market with high-res sensor shift. How long did it take for competitors to offer the same feature?
Nobody but forum fans CARE if the format is "good enough".
Right. Forum fans, and people who care more about the images they make than the brand of the camera they use. ;)
Most customers in the real world, especially today's world, no longer settle for "good enough".
lol... Of course they do. That's why smartphones have eviscerated the camera market.
M43 offers...a fairly old (at least 2017 for Panasonic from GH5 / 2016 for Olympus from EM1.2) 20MP sensor, one with DFD AF and the other with classic embedded pixel AF.
So what? Fuji is charging nearly $4000 for a medium format camera body that uses a sensor that is at least 5 years old.

More to the point, we're well into diminishing returns on sensor improvements, and have been for at least 5 years. Sony could announce a BSI backscatter organic graphene 16k sensor made out of unobtanium, and it won't result in some massive increase in image quality that will turn you into Richard Avedon and heal your soul. There just isn't much more to improve.
Canon's EOS RP uses a 2017 26MP chip that was already ahead of most m43 sensors....
And again, we aren't seeing many real-world improvements to sensors. A few meaningless MP here and there. If you think that there is some massive difference between 20mp and 27mp, then you simply don't understand how sensors work.
Being an apologist doesn't keep a product around in a field that is constantly pushing the competition.
And whining about things that won't change, can't change, and don't matter, will not produce the consumer goods of your dreams.

Besides, last I checked, every camera manufacturer is having serious issues. They all know that sales are going down. Meaning the companies that are following your advice also have their backs to the wall. Go figure.
I'm not saying, say, a 27mp sensor will be possible. I agree with you, the megapixel race is pretty much over.
The megapixel race is definately not over. Using the A1 for wildlife is a revalation. It's not that you need or indeed want 50mp in an image. It's that the ability to crop is just so amazing and very flexible from a shooting standpoint.

With the E-M1 III I might well have the 1.4x TC attached to the 300mm f/4 to get the subject larger in the image (840mm ff fov). But I always faced the dilemma that using the teleconverter made the subject harder to track when it gets closer to you. Say you're shooting swallows. Do you put the 1.4x TC on and shoot the birds further out knowing that you won't be able to track them if they get close? Or do you use the bare lens and hope they do get close but actually that may never happen?

With a high megapixel sensor, I get to handle both situations without the teleconverter. When the birds are further away I can crop; a 1.5x crop with the 200-600mm gives a 900mm ff field of view at 21mp. If the birds come closer, I can use the full 50mp.

The added bonus is that shooting with a large sensor and then cropping in post makes it much easier to track the subject and keep it in the frame, and choose a pleasing composition; isn't it annoying when you get a great shot but the subject is too close to the edge of the frame?

So, I am completely sold on high megapixel cameras


That a way to go, and a very good one indeed, but MFT does not need high megapixel sensors to provide that kind of flexibility

20 mpix + 100-400 zoom (2 choice available) or the 150-400 will give you the same flexibility

The 100-400 are a much lighter and cheaper solutions, the 150-400 is similar in weight and more versatile with the close focus and built in converter. Price is very high but same is for the A1.

So for me if the new MFT cameras will offer an autofocus with good tracking, MFT will be still very competitive and offering very light, cheap and high quality solutions when compared to FF high resolution cameras

Stefano
 
APS, FF, and several MF sensors are just as slow to update as M43.
Another apologist. The fact is that APS, FF and MF sensors start with an advantage from the get-go.
Very true. But if you think that M43 will somehow magically leapfrog those sensors in most respects, then you will be perpetually disappointed.

To wit: Olympus was first to market with high-res sensor shift. How long did it take for competitors to offer the same feature?
Nobody but forum fans CARE if the format is "good enough".
Right. Forum fans, and people who care more about the images they make than the brand of the camera they use. ;)
Most customers in the real world, especially today's world, no longer settle for "good enough".
lol... Of course they do. That's why smartphones have eviscerated the camera market.
M43 offers...a fairly old (at least 2017 for Panasonic from GH5 / 2016 for Olympus from EM1.2) 20MP sensor, one with DFD AF and the other with classic embedded pixel AF.
So what? Fuji is charging nearly $4000 for a medium format camera body that uses a sensor that is at least 5 years old.

More to the point, we're well into diminishing returns on sensor improvements, and have been for at least 5 years. Sony could announce a BSI backscatter organic graphene 16k sensor made out of unobtanium, and it won't result in some massive increase in image quality that will turn you into Richard Avedon and heal your soul. There just isn't much more to improve.
Canon's EOS RP uses a 2017 26MP chip that was already ahead of most m43 sensors....
And again, we aren't seeing many real-world improvements to sensors. A few meaningless MP here and there. If you think that there is some massive difference between 20mp and 27mp, then you simply don't understand how sensors work.
Being an apologist doesn't keep a product around in a field that is constantly pushing the competition.
And whining about things that won't change, can't change, and don't matter, will not produce the consumer goods of your dreams.

Besides, last I checked, every camera manufacturer is having serious issues. They all know that sales are going down. Meaning the companies that are following your advice also have their backs to the wall. Go figure.
I'm not saying, say, a 27mp sensor will be possible. I agree with you, the megapixel race is pretty much over.
The megapixel race is definately not over. Using the A1 for wildlife is a revalation. It's not that you need or indeed want 50mp in an image. It's that the ability to crop is just so amazing and very flexible from a shooting standpoint.

With the E-M1 III I might well have the 1.4x TC attached to the 300mm f/4 to get the subject larger in the image (840mm ff fov). But I always faced the dilemma that using the teleconverter made the subject harder to track when it gets closer to you. Say you're shooting swallows. Do you put the 1.4x TC on and shoot the birds further out knowing that you won't be able to track them if they get close? Or do you use the bare lens and hope they do get close but actually that may never happen?

With a high megapixel sensor, I get to handle both situations without the teleconverter. When the birds are further away I can crop; a 1.5x crop with the 200-600mm gives a 900mm ff field of view at 21mp. If the birds come closer, I can use the full 50mp.

The added bonus is that shooting with a large sensor and then cropping in post makes it much easier to track the subject and keep it in the frame, and choose a pleasing composition; isn't it annoying when you get a great shot but the subject is too close to the edge of the frame?

So, I am completely sold on high megapixel cameras
That a way to go, and a very good one indeed, but MFT does not need high megapixel sensors to provide that kind of flexibility

20 mpix + 100-400 zoom (2 choice available) or the 150-400 will give you the same flexibility

The 100-400 are a much lighter and cheaper solutions, the 150-400 is similar in weight and more versatile with the close focus and built in converter. Price is very high but same is for the A1.

So for me if the new MFT cameras will offer an autofocus with good tracking, MFT will be still very competitive and offering very light, cheap and high quality solutions when compared to FF high resolution cameras

Stefano
Well, the zoom certainly does help but I find I'm not very good at zooming out quickly as the bird gets closer. However, high megapixels still has the advantage of cropping from a larger frame so it is easier to keep an erratic subject in view. That was a real eye-opener for me and as a result, I very rarely use the 1.4x TC with the 200-600.

The cost of more megapixels is mainly in hardware, storage and processing but not so much in image quality. We tend to crop the amount that needs to be cropped so having more pixels will just give more details up to a point. After that of course, noise will become too much of a problem. So just don't over-crop.

The 150-400 f/4.5 with a 40+mp body that could AF really well would be an awsome, lightweight combo. That would get my interest although I would have to be really convinced that OMDS had cracked C-AF this time.
 
I'm here to say I really, really like the m43 format. At least, the promises they made for it. It's why I've kept the GX7, a great camera for the chassis layout and size. But, let's face it, my G9 although being a very good camera is simply 10-15% too large, and continuing along that line will only be the death sentence of the format.
I'm curious as to how it's "too large" It fits into my hand just nicely, without fingers hanging off the bottom of the grip, making it uncomfortable. It has enough real estate to fit a brilliant array of direct, manual controls. The grip is just large enough that I don't require any sort of strap, I can wander around for hours with it just loosely hanging from a couple of finger tips. Saying it should be smaller -considering its intended purpose, is as silly as saying smaller capacity motorcycles should have smaller wheels, smaller handlebars, smaller seats, and so on. That's not the way it works in the real world. Normal sized humans should be able to comfortably use both. m4/3 should not just be about tiny midget cameras for ladymans hands, there's got to be a bit of variety.
 
APS, FF, and several MF sensors are just as slow to update as M43.
Another apologist. The fact is that APS, FF and MF sensors start with an advantage from the get-go.
Very true. But if you think that M43 will somehow magically leapfrog those sensors in most respects, then you will be perpetually disappointed.

To wit: Olympus was first to market with high-res sensor shift. How long did it take for competitors to offer the same feature?
Nobody but forum fans CARE if the format is "good enough".
Right. Forum fans, and people who care more about the images they make than the brand of the camera they use. ;)
Most customers in the real world, especially today's world, no longer settle for "good enough".
lol... Of course they do. That's why smartphones have eviscerated the camera market.
M43 offers...a fairly old (at least 2017 for Panasonic from GH5 / 2016 for Olympus from EM1.2) 20MP sensor, one with DFD AF and the other with classic embedded pixel AF.
So what? Fuji is charging nearly $4000 for a medium format camera body that uses a sensor that is at least 5 years old.

More to the point, we're well into diminishing returns on sensor improvements, and have been for at least 5 years. Sony could announce a BSI backscatter organic graphene 16k sensor made out of unobtanium, and it won't result in some massive increase in image quality that will turn you into Richard Avedon and heal your soul. There just isn't much more to improve.
Canon's EOS RP uses a 2017 26MP chip that was already ahead of most m43 sensors....
And again, we aren't seeing many real-world improvements to sensors. A few meaningless MP here and there. If you think that there is some massive difference between 20mp and 27mp, then you simply don't understand how sensors work.
Being an apologist doesn't keep a product around in a field that is constantly pushing the competition.
And whining about things that won't change, can't change, and don't matter, will not produce the consumer goods of your dreams.

Besides, last I checked, every camera manufacturer is having serious issues. They all know that sales are going down. Meaning the companies that are following your advice also have their backs to the wall. Go figure.
I'm not saying, say, a 27mp sensor will be possible. I agree with you, the megapixel race is pretty much over.
The megapixel race is definately not over. Using the A1 for wildlife is a revalation. It's not that you need or indeed want 50mp in an image. It's that the ability to crop is just so amazing and very flexible from a shooting standpoint.

With the E-M1 III I might well have the 1.4x TC attached to the 300mm f/4 to get the subject larger in the image (840mm ff fov). But I always faced the dilemma that using the teleconverter made the subject harder to track when it gets closer to you. Say you're shooting swallows. Do you put the 1.4x TC on and shoot the birds further out knowing that you won't be able to track them if they get close? Or do you use the bare lens and hope they do get close but actually that may never happen?

With a high megapixel sensor, I get to handle both situations without the teleconverter. When the birds are further away I can crop; a 1.5x crop with the 200-600mm gives a 900mm ff field of view at 21mp. If the birds come closer, I can use the full 50mp.

The added bonus is that shooting with a large sensor and then cropping in post makes it much easier to track the subject and keep it in the frame, and choose a pleasing composition; isn't it annoying when you get a great shot but the subject is too close to the edge of the frame?

So, I am completely sold on high megapixel cameras
That a way to go, and a very good one indeed, but MFT does not need high megapixel sensors to provide that kind of flexibility

20 mpix + 100-400 zoom (2 choice available) or the 150-400 will give you the same flexibility

The 100-400 are a much lighter and cheaper solutions, the 150-400 is similar in weight and more versatile with the close focus and built in converter. Price is very high but same is for the A1.

So for me if the new MFT cameras will offer an autofocus with good tracking, MFT will be still very competitive and offering very light, cheap and high quality solutions when compared to FF high resolution cameras

Stefano
Well, the zoom certainly does help but I find I'm not very good at zooming out quickly as the bird gets closer. However, high megapixels still has the advantage of cropping from a larger frame so it is easier to keep an erratic subject in view. That was a real eye-opener for me and as a result, I very rarely use the 1.4x TC with the 200-600.
This is true but I personally still prefer to frame the shot as well as possible. Getting a good photo without cropping too much is just a small personal satisfaction for me. I just photograph for fun and when I have to crop too much I always have the feeling that I`ve done something wrong ;-)
The cost of more megapixels is mainly in hardware, storage and processing but not so much in image quality. We tend to crop the amount that needs to be cropped so having more pixels will just give more details up to a point. After that of course, noise will become too much of a problem. So just don't over-crop.

The 150-400 f/4.5 with a 40+mp body that could AF really well would be an awsome, lightweight combo. That would get my interest although I would have to be really convinced that OMDS had cracked C-AF this time.
Yes, this would be an incredible combo but for the next future I guess the megapixel count will not increase much in MFT cameras.

After many many considerations and evaluations, I am more and more tending toward the 150-400. The price is the main problem but selling some stuff will help to finance it. I am fine with the quality of the 300+1.4 and 2x and this lens will give me, even more, reach and the possibility to lower a bit the ISO or increase shutter speed.

CAF is good enough for my needs, but any improvements especially in tracking will be very welcome and I am convinced that the new fast 43 sensors will help to increase CAF performance.

Stefano
 
The megapixel race is definately not over. Using the A1 for wildlife is a revalation.
It's also an expensive revelation. ;) The A1 body is $6500 or so -- that's nearly 4 times the cost of an E-M1X. The 200-600 zoom is around $2000, but the native 400mm/600mm lenses are an eye-watering $12,000 and up. (The 45mp Nikon Z9 will start around $5500.)

At any rate, 50mp cameras only offer around 25% more resolution than 25mp, so it's noticeable (at certain print or image sizes) but nowhere near like the jump from, say, 8mp to 25mp. To get significantly higher resolution than 45-50mp, the next round of sensors would have to be at least 75mp. To double image quality over the A1, you'd need 200mp!

And let's face it, a lot of sports and action types are still fine with 20-25mp, hence the Canon R3, Nikon D6, and Sony A9.

So yeah, I'm pretty confident that the MP wars are all over except the shouting.
 
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APS, FF, and several MF sensors are just as slow to update as M43.
Another apologist. The fact is that APS, FF and MF sensors start with an advantage from the get-go.
Very true. But if you think that M43 will somehow magically leapfrog those sensors in most respects, then you will be perpetually disappointed.

To wit: Olympus was first to market with high-res sensor shift. How long did it take for competitors to offer the same feature?
Nobody but forum fans CARE if the format is "good enough".
Right. Forum fans, and people who care more about the images they make than the brand of the camera they use. ;)
Most customers in the real world, especially today's world, no longer settle for "good enough".
lol... Of course they do. That's why smartphones have eviscerated the camera market.
M43 offers...a fairly old (at least 2017 for Panasonic from GH5 / 2016 for Olympus from EM1.2) 20MP sensor, one with DFD AF and the other with classic embedded pixel AF.
So what? Fuji is charging nearly $4000 for a medium format camera body that uses a sensor that is at least 5 years old.

More to the point, we're well into diminishing returns on sensor improvements, and have been for at least 5 years. Sony could announce a BSI backscatter organic graphene 16k sensor made out of unobtanium, and it won't result in some massive increase in image quality that will turn you into Richard Avedon and heal your soul. There just isn't much more to improve.
Canon's EOS RP uses a 2017 26MP chip that was already ahead of most m43 sensors....
And again, we aren't seeing many real-world improvements to sensors. A few meaningless MP here and there. If you think that there is some massive difference between 20mp and 27mp, then you simply don't understand how sensors work.
Being an apologist doesn't keep a product around in a field that is constantly pushing the competition.
And whining about things that won't change, can't change, and don't matter, will not produce the consumer goods of your dreams.

Besides, last I checked, every camera manufacturer is having serious issues. They all know that sales are going down. Meaning the companies that are following your advice also have their backs to the wall. Go figure.
I'm not saying, say, a 27mp sensor will be possible. I agree with you, the megapixel race is pretty much over.
The megapixel race is definately not over. Using the A1 for wildlife is a revalation. It's not that you need or indeed want 50mp in an image. It's that the ability to crop is just so amazing and very flexible from a shooting standpoint.

With the E-M1 III I might well have the 1.4x TC attached to the 300mm f/4 to get the subject larger in the image (840mm ff fov). But I always faced the dilemma that using the teleconverter made the subject harder to track when it gets closer to you. Say you're shooting swallows. Do you put the 1.4x TC on and shoot the birds further out knowing that you won't be able to track them if they get close? Or do you use the bare lens and hope they do get close but actually that may never happen?

With a high megapixel sensor, I get to handle both situations without the teleconverter. When the birds are further away I can crop; a 1.5x crop with the 200-600mm gives a 900mm ff field of view at 21mp. If the birds come closer, I can use the full 50mp.

The added bonus is that shooting with a large sensor and then cropping in post makes it much easier to track the subject and keep it in the frame, and choose a pleasing composition; isn't it annoying when you get a great shot but the subject is too close to the edge of the frame?

So, I am completely sold on high megapixel cameras
That a way to go, and a very good one indeed, but MFT does not need high megapixel sensors to provide that kind of flexibility

20 mpix + 100-400 zoom (2 choice available) or the 150-400 will give you the same flexibility

The 100-400 are a much lighter and cheaper solutions, the 150-400 is similar in weight and more versatile with the close focus and built in converter. Price is very high but same is for the A1.

So for me if the new MFT cameras will offer an autofocus with good tracking, MFT will be still very competitive and offering very light, cheap and high quality solutions when compared to FF high resolution cameras

Stefano
Well, the zoom certainly does help but I find I'm not very good at zooming out quickly as the bird gets closer. However, high megapixels still has the advantage of cropping from a larger frame so it is easier to keep an erratic subject in view. That was a real eye-opener for me and as a result, I very rarely use the 1.4x TC with the 200-600.

The cost of more megapixels is mainly in hardware, storage and processing but not so much in image quality. We tend to crop the amount that needs to be cropped so having more pixels will just give more details up to a point. After that of course, noise will become too much of a problem. So just don't over-crop.

The 150-400 f/4.5 with a 40+mp body that could AF really well would be an awsome, lightweight combo. That would get my interest although I would have to be really convinced that OMDS had cracked C-AF this time.
A 20 MP m43 sensor is like having a 80 MP FF sensor from a pixel density standpoint. It is already toward the extreme end of what's possible (at least with current tech) without ruining IQ.

I see your point about the awkwardness of zooming while shooting BIFs, but a bigger sensor isn't the solution for m43. There's a reason why everyone doesn't use the A7R series for BIF, for example, or why many prefer the D500 to the D850 despite them being "equivalent" after cropping.

Perhaps a 200mm focal length would work better for your needs. I use the 300 PF bare with my D500 and find the 200mm m43 equivalent FOV to be sufficient for swallows / swifts in many cases.
 
A 24mp sensor (at the MOST, 20-22mp is still fine and realistic), but with reliable, competitive AF (PDAF coupled with fast readout rates), plus say 1 stop (a bit optimistic, but let's aim) better low light via dual gain?

I am pretty sure a lot of buyers would say, "Yes, please!!"
News flash! The sensors are already fast enough, as we see with other mirrorless cameras.
Absolute HOGWASH!! Where in the world do you come up with such self-aggrandizing rubbish??!!

If sensors were "fast enough" THEN THEY WOULDN'T BE INTRODUCING EVER FASTER SENSORS.

Fact. Not negotiable. End of discussion.

Necessary for 4K, at minimum. Not negotiable if you want 8K.
Nikon's AF isn't better because they shaved a few nanoseconds off of the readout rate. At this point, it's all about the AF algorithms and accurately predicting motion.
Because PDAF doesn't matter??!

Again, where are you coming up with these things? A fundamental belief in self, without any concern for what is really going on in the world?

Fine. Let OM and Panasonic play your way, sit still as their products are "good enough".

Come back to me in 4 years and tell me how that works out for you.
And again, other than size and weight, M43 will never gain a permanent advantage over the competition. For example, Olympus repeatedly innovated, without significantly improving market share or profitability, and it didn't take long for competitors to adopt those features.
Good enough in today's tech is NEVER good enough because the competition will always be banging on your door.
And when technology gets to the point of diminishing returns, then the improvements become increasingly superfluous and superficial.

And which customers, exactly, is Olympus chasing with the things you're talking about? Sports? Wildlife? Kind of a small niche, no? A new sensor won't change the fundamental differences, as the E-M1X showed. M43 will always be smaller, lighter, have more DoF, and less DR, than larger-sensored competitors. I seriously doubt it will ever catch up, let alone beat, competitors in terms of AF. Even given the declining sales issues, Nikon, Canon and Sony have a massive resource advantage over every M43 company.
Saying to the world "m43 TODAY is good enough" is a sure-fire DEATH SENTENCE.
Uh huh. How many years ago did you start predicting doom for M43?

I think you need to face the fact that anyone whose mind-set is comparative and hedonic simply won't be satisfied with M43.
That's NOT THE POINT. The POINT is to offer the best that you can within your market segment, otherwise you go EXTINCT.

FF won't be for everyone...unless the options represent such a poor value choice that going for the big format just makes economic sense. The original Olympus Pen was an option... until it wasn't because of stiff competition from other sources.

M43 NEEDS to stay relevant. Your insular attitude, that they need nothing else more than what they have now will KILL THEM in the long run. You don't see it because you don't study business history, you think that a stagnant market share will always STAY stagnant for the business in question, allowing them their long-term "slice of the pie".

Oh boy, is that naive.

It happened to the original 43 SLR format and it well can happen again, if they take their eye off the ball of the original attractions of m43 that brought people here in the first place. Small size. Good (but not class-leading) performance for that size. Flexible system options.

Making large bodies with 20mp sensors, when you can get 24mp APSC and 50mp FF in that same body size, is asking for long-term doom. Only the fanatics will stick with that plan, any other shopper will question the motives of what that smaller sensor is bringing - nothing - if the body size doesn't match. Even them, too much performance compromise and they'll be back to questioning why compromise in the first place.
 
A 24mp sensor (at the MOST, 20-22mp is still fine and realistic), but with reliable, competitive AF (PDAF coupled with fast readout rates), plus say 1 stop (a bit optimistic, but let's aim) better low light via dual gain?

I am pretty sure a lot of buyers would say, "Yes, please!!"
News flash! The sensors are already fast enough, as we see with other mirrorless cameras.
Absolute HOGWASH!! Where in the world do you come up with such self-aggrandizing rubbish??!!

If sensors were "fast enough" THEN THEY WOULDN'T BE INTRODUCING EVER FASTER SENSORS.

Fact. Not negotiable. End of discussion.

Necessary for 4K, at minimum. Not negotiable if you want 8K.
Nikon's AF isn't better because they shaved a few nanoseconds off of the readout rate. At this point, it's all about the AF algorithms and accurately predicting motion.
Because PDAF doesn't matter??!

Again, where are you coming up with these things? A fundamental belief in self, without any concern for what is really going on in the world?

Fine. Let OM and Panasonic play your way, sit still as their products are "good enough".

Come back to me in 4 years and tell me how that works out for you.
And again, other than size and weight, M43 will never gain a permanent advantage over the competition. For example, Olympus repeatedly innovated, without significantly improving market share or profitability, and it didn't take long for competitors to adopt those features.
Good enough in today's tech is NEVER good enough because the competition will always be banging on your door.
And when technology gets to the point of diminishing returns, then the improvements become increasingly superfluous and superficial.

And which customers, exactly, is Olympus chasing with the things you're talking about? Sports? Wildlife? Kind of a small niche, no? A new sensor won't change the fundamental differences, as the E-M1X showed. M43 will always be smaller, lighter, have more DoF, and less DR, than larger-sensored competitors. I seriously doubt it will ever catch up, let alone beat, competitors in terms of AF. Even given the declining sales issues, Nikon, Canon and Sony have a massive resource advantage over every M43 company.
Saying to the world "m43 TODAY is good enough" is a sure-fire DEATH SENTENCE.
Uh huh. How many years ago did you start predicting doom for M43?

I think you need to face the fact that anyone whose mind-set is comparative and hedonic simply won't be satisfied with M43.
That's NOT THE POINT. The POINT is to offer the best that you can within your market segment, otherwise you go EXTINCT.

FF won't be for everyone...unless the options represent such a poor value choice that going for the big format just makes economic sense. The original Olympus Pen was an option... until it wasn't because of stiff competition from other sources.

M43 NEEDS to stay relevant. Your insular attitude, that they need nothing else more than what they have now will KILL THEM in the long run. You don't see it because you don't study business history, you think that a stagnant market share will always STAY stagnant for the business in question, allowing them their long-term "slice of the pie".

Oh boy, is that naive.

It happened to the original 43 SLR format and it well can happen again, if they take their eye off the ball of the original attractions of m43 that brought people here in the first place. Small size. Good (but not class-leading) performance for that size. Flexible system options.

Making large bodies with 20mp sensors, when you can get 24mp APSC and 50mp FF in that same body size, is asking for long-term doom. Only the fanatics will stick with that plan, any other shopper will question the motives of what that smaller sensor is bringing - nothing - if the body size doesn't match. Even them, too much performance compromise and they'll be back to questioning why compromise in the first place.
WHAT'S WITH ALL THE SHOUTING? Have you got your head buried in the sand? Panasonic have announced a GH6 that will have a stacked, BSI sensor, and they have also released more details of the organic sensor. That's actually in production, and they've said it's coming to Lumix. That looks to me like they're playing the long game, and doing it their own way.

Like I wrote previously, expecting camera bodies to be proportional to sensor size is a fools errand. Normal people have relatively similar sized hands, we're not talking elves, babies and infants as a potential market for tiny cameras. And, you need a certain amount of real estate to include a nice set of ergonomic, and intuitive set of controls. Small FF cameras are badly missing this point.
 
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Absolute HOGWASH!! Where in the world do you come up with such self-aggrandizing rubbish??!!
Sigh
If sensors were "fast enough" THEN THEY WOULDN'T BE INTRODUCING EVER FASTER SENSORS.
Yes, they would. Camera manufacturers feel the need to justify new equipment sales -- even if the overwhelming number of consumers don't need the New Hotness. They believe that their highest-paying customers are stuck on the Hedonic Treadmill, so they feel compelled to chase those customers.

Sadly, you have to go back a few decades to see a time when that was less prevalent. Hasselblad, for example, stuck with the 500c for over 2 decades; the 500C/M was a minor improvement that was largely unchanged for almost 20 years. Leica made tiny updates about once every 10-15 years. There were what, 4 iterations of Nikon's F series between 1965 and 1998?
Necessary for 4K, at minimum. Not negotiable if you want 8K.
Yes, because everyone needs 8k! Oh, wait. Almost no one except professional broadcasters and movie cinematographers needs that.

(Don't hold your breath waiting for M43 to get true 8k.)
Nikon's AF isn't better because they shaved a few nanoseconds off of the readout rate. At this point, it's all about the AF algorithms and accurately predicting motion.
Because PDAF doesn't matter??!
Sigh

I said nothing of the sort. Again, it's that we're at the point where it is more important to develop algorithms that can predict action than to increase readout speed.
Fine. Let OM and Panasonic play your way, sit still as their products are "good enough".
Well, they don't have much of a choice.

The simple fact is that the smaller sensor is going to require compromises in IQ compared to larger sensors.

And again, another simple fact is that almost every innovation Olympus came up, or early lead with tech, with failed to increase market share, and spread to competitors. Sensor cleaning, mirrorless, built-in lens corrections, IBIS, high-res multi-shot, specific AF algorithms... The same will happen with computational photography and whatever else they come up with.

I mean, really. At what point would you be satisfied? M43 is arguably on par with medium format film, which was "good enough" for decades of commercial and fine art photography.

If they eke out 1 more stop of DR, will you say "ok, that's good enough"? No. By definition, you're saying you will never be satisfied, even if it becomes impossible to improve the equipment any further. I don't see any utility in that, especially as (again) we are well into diminishing returns territory.
Come back to me in 4 years and tell me how that works out for you.
lol... I'm curious, did you say that 4 years ago, too? :D
How many years ago did you start predicting doom for M43?

I think you need to face the fact that anyone whose mind-set is comparative and hedonic simply won't be satisfied with M43.
That's NOT THE POINT. The POINT is to offer the best that you can within your market segment, otherwise you go EXTINCT.
So, failed predictions of doom are aside the point, when you find it useful to predict doom if you don't get your way? Nice. You might as well scream that M43 is DOOOOMED if it can't make a $200 f/0.95 pancake lens that is sharper than a Zeiss Batis.

What, exactly, is the "market segment" for M43? It's people who want cameras more capable than a smartphone or P&S, that are small and light, and have good ergonomics. No matter what, that's always going to involve compromises... and it's a small niche.

By the way, the history of consumer products makes it incredibly clear that "best" doesn't always win. Decades of "Nikon vs Canon" also make it clear that no one can agree on what is "best" in the first place. So it goes.
M43 NEEDS to stay relevant.
And the only way for it to "stay relevant" is to meet exactly the demands you set? Or to improve DR by 1 stop? C'mon.
Your insular attitude, that they need nothing else more than what they have now will KILL THEM in the long run.
You do realize you're saying that at a time when the entire camera market is collapsing, right...?
You don't see it because you don't study business history, you think that a stagnant market share will always STAY stagnant for the business in question, allowing them their long-term "slice of the pie".

Oh boy, is that naive.
lol, talk about naive. If you understand "business history," you should know that chasing market share can be detrimental, especially in a market that is already falling off a cliff.
It happened to the original 43 SLR format....
If M43 is going to fail, it won't be because of market share, or because they didn't reduce readout speed by 0.05ms. It will only happen if there aren't enough people willing to pay for smaller and lighter ILCs.
Making large bodies with 20mp sensors, when you can get 24mp APSC and 50mp FF in that same body size, is asking for long-term doom.
Good grief, how many years have we heard these failed predictions? Why doesn't the failure of the ultra-tiny gear ever register?
 
APS, FF, and several MF sensors are just as slow to update as M43.
Another apologist. The fact is that APS, FF and MF sensors start with an advantage from the get-go.
Very true. But if you think that M43 will somehow magically leapfrog those sensors in most respects, then you will be perpetually disappointed.

To wit: Olympus was first to market with high-res sensor shift. How long did it take for competitors to offer the same feature?
Nobody but forum fans CARE if the format is "good enough".
Right. Forum fans, and people who care more about the images they make than the brand of the camera they use. ;)
Most customers in the real world, especially today's world, no longer settle for "good enough".
lol... Of course they do. That's why smartphones have eviscerated the camera market.
M43 offers...a fairly old (at least 2017 for Panasonic from GH5 / 2016 for Olympus from EM1.2) 20MP sensor, one with DFD AF and the other with classic embedded pixel AF.
So what? Fuji is charging nearly $4000 for a medium format camera body that uses a sensor that is at least 5 years old.

More to the point, we're well into diminishing returns on sensor improvements, and have been for at least 5 years. Sony could announce a BSI backscatter organic graphene 16k sensor made out of unobtanium, and it won't result in some massive increase in image quality that will turn you into Richard Avedon and heal your soul. There just isn't much more to improve.
Canon's EOS RP uses a 2017 26MP chip that was already ahead of most m43 sensors....
And again, we aren't seeing many real-world improvements to sensors. A few meaningless MP here and there. If you think that there is some massive difference between 20mp and 27mp, then you simply don't understand how sensors work.
Being an apologist doesn't keep a product around in a field that is constantly pushing the competition.
And whining about things that won't change, can't change, and don't matter, will not produce the consumer goods of your dreams.

Besides, last I checked, every camera manufacturer is having serious issues. They all know that sales are going down. Meaning the companies that are following your advice also have their backs to the wall. Go figure.
I'm not saying, say, a 27mp sensor will be possible. I agree with you, the megapixel race is pretty much over.

But you need to stay competitive. A 24mp sensor (at the MOST, 20-22mp is still fine and realistic), but with reliable, competitive AF (PDAF coupled with fast readout rates), plus say 1 stop (a bit optimistic, but let's aim) better low light via dual gain?

I am pretty sure a lot of buyers would say, "Yes, please!!"

A stacked BSI sensor would probably give all of that using TODAY'S technology. No fantasy needed.
No, you will not get an extra stop from a bsi sensor. This has already been explained by people more knowledgeable on the subject.
 
I'm not saying, say, a 27mp sensor will be possible. I agree with you, the megapixel race is pretty much over.

But you need to stay competitive. A 24mp sensor (at the MOST, 20-22mp is still fine and realistic), but with reliable, competitive AF (PDAF coupled with fast readout rates), plus say 1 stop (a bit optimistic, but let's aim) better low light via dual gain?

I am pretty sure a lot of buyers would say, "Yes, please!!"

A stacked BSI sensor would probably give all of that using TODAY'S technology. No fantasy needed.
No, you will not get an extra stop from a bsi sensor. This has already been explained by people more knowledgeable on the subject.
Doesn't even need to be explained, you can look at real world examples. You can look at the GH5S (has BSI IMX299 and dual gain) vs a GH5 II or G9. No DR advantage at all, all you gain is native ISO settings over 12800. The FSI sensors used by MFT cameras are already highly efficient, there's close to no IQ gain to be had from switching to BSI. People wishing for new sensors to change IQ significantly, is barking up the wrong tree.

As for sensor speed, MFT is already using some of the fastest sensors out there (only slower than the top FF sensors that are used in flagships with eyewatering high price tags). What's holding things back is not the sensors, but the algorithms (like how Olympus has a fast PDAF sensor, but the AF algorithms still can't match the best from the big players). And this will probably remain that way given it's a niche format and there just isn't as much R&D funding available.

Heck, MFT would get more for their money if they invest in better image processors (to brute force some of the processing even if the algorithms are behind, like how the E-M1X is better due to more processing power).

Then about resolution bump, I doubt it makes sense to invest in a small bump like 24MP. It makes more sense to jump straight to 8K (Sony has a sensor already in the catalog for it). Would work nicely for a E-M1R or a GH6R.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/84209...p-mft-sensor-capable-of-recording-8k30p-video
 
  1. victorav wrote:
APS, FF, and several MF sensors are just as slow to update as M43.
Another apologist. The fact is that APS, FF and MF sensors start with an advantage from the get-go.
Very true. But if you think that M43 will somehow magically leapfrog those sensors in most respects, then you will be perpetually disappointed.

To wit: Olympus was first to market with high-res sensor shift. How long did it take for competitors to offer the same feature?
Nobody but forum fans CARE if the format is "good enough".
Right. Forum fans, and people who care more about the images they make than the brand of the camera they use. ;)
Most customers in the real world, especially today's world, no longer settle for "good enough".
lol... Of course they do. That's why smartphones have eviscerated the camera market.
M43 offers...a fairly old (at least 2017 for Panasonic from GH5 / 2016 for Olympus from EM1.2) 20MP sensor, one with DFD AF and the other with classic embedded pixel AF.
So what? Fuji is charging nearly $4000 for a medium format camera body that uses a sensor that is at least 5 years old.

More to the point, we're well into diminishing returns on sensor improvements, and have been for at least 5 years. Sony could announce a BSI backscatter organic graphene 16k sensor made out of unobtanium, and it won't result in some massive increase in image quality that will turn you into Richard Avedon and heal your soul. There just isn't much more to improve.
Canon's EOS RP uses a 2017 26MP chip that was already ahead of most m43 sensors....
And again, we aren't seeing many real-world improvements to sensors. A few meaningless MP here and there. If you think that there is some massive difference between 20mp and 27mp, then you simply don't understand how sensors work.
Being an apologist doesn't keep a product around in a field that is constantly pushing the competition.
And whining about things that won't change, can't change, and don't matter, will not produce the consumer goods of your dreams.

Besides, last I checked, every camera manufacturer is having serious issues. They all know that sales are going down. Meaning the companies that are following your advice also have their backs to the wall. Go figure.
I'm not saying, say, a 27mp sensor will be possible. I agree with you, the megapixel race is pretty much over.

But you need to stay competitive. A 24mp sensor (at the MOST, 20-22mp is still fine and realistic), but with reliable, competitive AF (PDAF coupled with fast readout rates), plus say 1 stop (a bit optimistic, but let's aim) better low light via dual gain?

I am pretty sure a lot of buyers would say, "Yes, please!!"

A stacked BSI sensor would probably give all of that using TODAY'S technology. No fantasy needed.
No, you will not get an extra stop from a bsi sensor. This has already been explained by people more knowledgeable on the subject.
Maybe should be added that nothing that is currently production ready would give one stop more performance. Actually even putting all the bells and whistles to a new MFT sensor wouldn't really change much if anything in regards to low-light performance.
 
IMHO there has only been one true thing holding back all of m43-land for the past, say, 5 years: sensor tech.
Ugh. This again?

APS, FF, and several MF sensors are just as slow to update as M43.

That should surprise no one, as those sensors are more than sufficient for almost any photographic task.

And let's face it, whatever updates are made to the M43 sensors will be applied to other size sensors as well. Either a format works for you, or it doesn't.
Agreed... but m43 for those that it does work for, needs sales volume and profits for it to grow and succeed long term for survival. Most potential customers, and critically new to m43 owners, look at price and promises... what the sales person in the shop says plus some research done on Google and YouTube.

The camera sensor is a critical part of decision making prior to purchase. Price and how many megapixels is easy to push by a sales person in a shop. Getting online reviews and Youtubers to recommend m43 over FF or APSC is harder... but a jump in IQ, along with a lot of new sensor tech hype talk, would go a long way. If only I had a dollar for every time I have read "Once again the new m43 camera model X uses the same aging 5 year old sensor that by today's standards is not competitive".

Those that know the current sensor is "good enough" are in the minority and will not create the growth in market for m43 to survive long term.
 
I remember looking at the original EM5 files from DPR at the time and thinking "This thing is good"... certainly by contemporary standards. Then I read up on the features and the whole mirrorless concept, and was sold apart from the AF for action and specifically challenging genres like BIF. The EM1 fixed any doubts for me and I was on my way with m43.

People talk about Nikon's D3/ D300/ D700 "moments" and that the Z9 will do that again for Nikon. The EM5 was the m43 "moment". I would argue the EM1.2 was another m43 "moment", or a continuation of momentum. The EM5, from memory, was voted the DPR camera of the year, and the EM5 and EM1.2 got "gold awards".

"Good enough" for existing m43 users, particularly those on a forum like this, will not translate into the sales and profits needed moving forward for the format to advance and survive. Whether we like it or not, the power of Google and YouTube spruiking that m43 is dated technology, will cause the demise of the format.

A new and state of the art sensor, together with aggressive new features like no more mechanical shutter, even though it won't turn anyone into Ansel Adams, might create enough new chatter online to generate the next m43 "moment" and the sales and profits desperately needed.
 
The camera sensor is a critical part of decision making prior to purchase...
Once upon a time, the only thing people cared about when buying a computer was the clock speed. It was an oversimplified single number that people could easily identify.

And then... clock speeds stopped going up. And computer manufacturers stopped talking about it.

Cameras are close to if not at that point, and why camera makers are emphasizing so many other features -- whether people really need them or not.
Getting online reviews and Youtubers to recommend m43 over FF or APSC is harder... but a jump in IQ, along with a lot of new sensor tech hype talk, would go a long way.
Sorry, but no, it won't.

M43 will never beat larger sensors on MP counts. That's just not going to happen.
If only I had a dollar for every time I have read "Once again the new m43 camera model X uses the same aging 5 year old sensor that by today's standards is not competitive".
And yet, M43 keeps sticking around, and all of the camera manufacturers are facing declining sales. Care to explain?
Those that know the current sensor is "good enough" are in the minority and will not create the growth in market for m43 to survive long term.
My friend... The entire camera market is collapsing. Sony put out a 50mp camera in 2014. Most people are happy with their crappy smartphone cameras. Anyone who thinks that M43 will be saved by bumping up to 24mp is sorely mistaken.
 
I'm not saying, say, a 27mp sensor will be possible. I agree with you, the megapixel race is pretty much over.

But you need to stay competitive. A 24mp sensor (at the MOST, 20-22mp is still fine and realistic), but with reliable, competitive AF (PDAF coupled with fast readout rates), plus say 1 stop (a bit optimistic, but let's aim) better low light via dual gain?

I am pretty sure a lot of buyers would say, "Yes, please!!"

A stacked BSI sensor would probably give all of that using TODAY'S technology. No fantasy needed.
No, you will not get an extra stop from a bsi sensor. This has already been explained by people more knowledgeable on the subject.
Doesn't even need to be explained, you can look at real world examples. You can look at the GH5S (has BSI IMX299 and dual gain) vs a GH5 II or G9. No DR advantage at all, all you gain is native ISO settings over 12800. The FSI sensors used by MFT cameras are already highly efficient, there's close to no IQ gain to be had from switching to BSI. People wishing for new sensors to change IQ significantly, is barking up the wrong tree.

As for sensor speed, MFT is already using some of the fastest sensors out there (only slower than the top FF sensors that are used in flagships with eyewatering high price tags). What's holding things back is not the sensors, but the algorithms (like how Olympus has a fast PDAF sensor, but the AF algorithms still can't match the best from the big players). And this will probably remain that way given it's a niche format and there just isn't as much R&D funding available.

Heck, MFT would get more for their money if they invest in better image processors (to brute force some of the processing even if the algorithms are behind, like how the E-M1X is better due to more processing power).

Then about resolution bump, I doubt it makes sense to invest in a small bump like 24MP. It makes more sense to jump straight to 8K (Sony has a sensor already in the catalog for it). Would work nicely for a E-M1R or a GH6R.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/84209...p-mft-sensor-capable-of-recording-8k30p-video
Do you think it would be possible for omds (or panasonic) to introduce c-af for the 60 fps? Nikon was able to do it at 120 fps, albeit not with full raw. Maybe omds could introduce something similar at 60 fps.
 
victorav wrote:
Do you think it would be possible for omds (or panasonic) to introduce c-af for the 60 fps? Nikon was able to do it at 120 fps, albeit not with full raw. Maybe omds could introduce something similar at 60 fps.
They probably can if they beef up the image processor significantly, even keeping the same sensor. The image processor really is the bottle neck here. The Z9 has an image processor 10x the speed of the Z7 II's and even it can't really keep with all the data, given it drops to 11MP to achieve those kinds of speeds.

Unfortunately, for camera makers getting fast processors that are power efficient at a decent price is a challenge given the relatively low volumes (and shrinking).
 
The camera sensor is a critical part of decision making prior to purchase...
Once upon a time, the only thing people cared about when buying a computer was the clock speed. It was an oversimplified single number that people could easily identify.

And then... clock speeds stopped going up. And computer manufacturers stopped talking about it.

Cameras are close to if not at that point, and why camera makers are emphasizing so many other features -- whether people really need them or not.
Getting online reviews and Youtubers to recommend m43 over FF or APSC is harder... but a jump in IQ, along with a lot of new sensor tech hype talk, would go a long way.
Sorry, but no, it won't.

M43 will never beat larger sensors on MP counts. That's just not going to happen.
Theoretically, it is possible. Even phone cameras, like the one on the OnePlus Nord N10 (just an example off the top of my mind) are 60+ MP.

Does that translate into better image quality? No, it does not. I recently purchased a Pixel 4a with a measly 12 MP sensor because it takes visibly better photos in low light - strikingly good photos!
If only I had a dollar for every time I have read "Once again the new m43 camera model X uses the same aging 5 year old sensor that by today's standards is not competitive".
And yet, M43 keeps sticking around, and all of the camera manufacturers are facing declining sales. Care to explain?
Those that know the current sensor is "good enough" are in the minority and will not create the growth in market for m43 to survive long term.
My friend... The entire camera market is collapsing. Sony put out a 50mp camera in 2014. Most people are happy with their crappy smartphone cameras. Anyone who thinks that M43 will be saved by bumping up to 24mp is sorely mistaken.
I agree.

If Google has the confidence to have 12 MP cameras on their flagship (or similar) phones, in a world saturated with 40+ MP cameras, why won't m43 sell with a 20 MP sensor?

It comes down to the message that is sent. OM needs to ask potential buyers if they want to chase specs or take photos. A lot of people would rather pay $2k for a m43 camera than $6k for full frame, if it meant that they could take similar photos with all the same (and more) features.

OM seems to grasp this, and I hope that they can deliver on their promise of computational photography.
 
The camera sensor is a critical part of decision making prior to purchase...
Once upon a time, the only thing people cared about when buying a computer was the clock speed. It was an oversimplified single number that people could easily identify.

And then... clock speeds stopped going up. And computer manufacturers stopped talking about it.

Cameras are close to if not at that point, and why camera makers are emphasizing so many other features -- whether people really need them or not.
Getting online reviews and Youtubers to recommend m43 over FF or APSC is harder... but a jump in IQ, along with a lot of new sensor tech hype talk, would go a long way.
Sorry, but no, it won't.

M43 will never beat larger sensors on MP counts. That's just not going to happen.
Theoretically, it is possible. Even phone cameras, like the one on the OnePlus Nord N10 (just an example off the top of my mind) are 60+ MP.

Does that translate into better image quality? No, it does not. I recently purchased a Pixel 4a with a measly 12 MP sensor because it takes visibly better photos in low light - strikingly good photos!
Phones aren't a good counterexample. Phones can invest in higher density sensors (and image processors that can support them) given even a low end phone sells in drastically higher volume than a camera. MFT doesn't have the volume to support that.

The A7R IV from 2019 has a 60MP sensor. I doubt MFT makers will use a sensor of that MP anytime soon. Even the existing 47MP sensor will take a while before camera makers will adopt it, if at all. MFT is lucky in that there are still other industries that use 4/3" sensors, do MFT makers can still piggy back on those for now.
 
The camera sensor is a critical part of decision making prior to purchase...
Once upon a time, the only thing people cared about when buying a computer was the clock speed. It was an oversimplified single number that people could easily identify.

And then... clock speeds stopped going up. And computer manufacturers stopped talking about it.

Cameras are close to if not at that point, and why camera makers are emphasizing so many other features -- whether people really need them or not.
Getting online reviews and Youtubers to recommend m43 over FF or APSC is harder... but a jump in IQ, along with a lot of new sensor tech hype talk, would go a long way.
Sorry, but no, it won't.

M43 will never beat larger sensors on MP counts. That's just not going to happen.
Theoretically, it is possible. Even phone cameras, like the one on the OnePlus Nord N10 (just an example off the top of my mind) are 60+ MP.

Does that translate into better image quality? No, it does not. I recently purchased a Pixel 4a with a measly 12 MP sensor because it takes visibly better photos in low light - strikingly good photos!
Phones aren't a good counterexample. Phones can invest in higher density sensors (and image processors that can support them) given even a low end phone sells in drastically higher volume than a camera. MFT doesn't have the volume to support that.

The A7R IV from 2019 has a 60MP sensor. I doubt MFT makers will use a sensor of that MP anytime soon. Even the existing 47MP sensor will take a while before camera makers will adopt it, if at all. MFT is lucky in that there are still other industries that use 4/3" sensors, do MFT makers can still piggy back on those for now.
There's a also the matter of a lens's ability to resolve the sensor. Some lenses work a lot better in High-Res mode than others.

I wouldn't want to use a TC on the 300mm lens for a high MP sensor. That would mean cropping and throwing away 75% of pixels for bird photos shot with a bare 300mm, further reducing any high-ISO improvements.

At 20MP, Four Thirds sensors still have a higher pixel density than any FF camera.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable could answer this: will the upcoming stacked sensor make high-res shooting practical at higher shutter speeds? I.E. for (slow) moving subjects?
 

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