Z9 "lossy" compression: is the decompression software a "closed" format?

If you want the tech specs for the binary file format and the algorithms used for decompression and demosaicing, I doubt they provide that.
Ah, that is the rub... The software libs included in an SDK are one thing, but some of the value comes with the documentation, in my experience. But since the infoPix system is all about performance, the included libs are hopefully well optimized and usable as is...

In this case, since it is an intellectual property intensive product, I can see where they may hesitate to provide the algorithms. Some SDKs/products are all about convenience and not having to "roll your own" so they tend to be more open about it. Not that I am happy about them not providing such things, I can just see why they may not.
 
If you want the tech specs for the binary file format and the algorithms used for decompression and demosaicing, I doubt they provide that.
Ah, that is the rub... The software libs included in an SDK are one thing, but some of the value comes with the documentation, in my experience. But since the infoPix system is all about performance, the included libs are hopefully well optimized and usable as is...

In this case, since it is an intellectual property intensive product, I can see where they may hesitate to provide the algorithms. Some SDKs/products are all about convenience and not having to "roll your own" so they tend to be more open about it. Not that I am happy about them not providing such things, I can just see why they may not.
Using SDKs directly also means numerous APIs, one for each SDK, instead of one API.

--
http://www.libraw.org/
 
Last edited:
If you want the tech specs for the binary file format and the algorithms used for decompression and demosaicing, I doubt they provide that.
Ah, that is the rub... The software libs included in an SDK are one thing, but some of the value comes with the documentation, in my experience. But since the infoPix system is all about performance, the included libs are hopefully well optimized and usable as is...

In this case, since it is an intellectual property intensive product, I can see where they may hesitate to provide the algorithms. Some SDKs/products are all about convenience and not having to "roll your own" so they tend to be more open about it. Not that I am happy about them not providing such things, I can just see why they may not.
Using SDKs directly also means numerous APIs, one for each SDK, instead of one API.
Why don't you contact intopix and get the license / sdk / api information directly? And then explain it to the rest of us non-software types?
 
Last edited:
Using SDKs directly also means numerous APIs, one for each SDK, instead of one API.
Since you have so much direct experience dealing with undocumented RAW formats from so many vendors what’s your best guess at this early stage? Is this all a bit of a tempest in a teapot and not really that different from any other new RAW format that may require reverse engineering? Seems very similar approach technically to Canon’s CRAW - how did that pan out?
 
If you want the tech specs for the binary file format and the algorithms used for decompression and demosaicing, I doubt they provide that.
Ah, that is the rub... The software libs included in an SDK are one thing, but some of the value comes with the documentation, in my experience. But since the infoPix system is all about performance, the included libs are hopefully well optimized and usable as is...

In this case, since it is an intellectual property intensive product, I can see where they may hesitate to provide the algorithms. Some SDKs/products are all about convenience and not having to "roll your own" so they tend to be more open about it. Not that I am happy about them not providing such things, I can just see why they may not.
Using SDKs directly also means numerous APIs, one for each SDK, instead of one API.
Why don't you contact intopix
Why don't I contact a 3rd party about a Nikon raw... Seriously? What does it solve?
 
Using SDKs directly also means numerous APIs, one for each SDK, instead of one API.
Since you have so much direct experience dealing with undocumented RAW formats from so many vendors what’s your best guess at this early stage? Is this all a bit of a tempest in a teapot and not really that different from any other new RAW format that may require reverse engineering? Seems very similar approach technically to Canon’s CRAW - how did that pan out?
CR3 took a lot of effort, close to a year. Current Canon decoder incorporates some code similar to what we have in LibRaw, which speeds things up a bit. We can't be sure of course, but maybe they looked into what we have.

I can't predict how much time it will take with HE, because it also depends on how lucky we are with our guesses.

I'm still very much amazed the raw formats are kept secret. Don't see the point.
 
If you want the tech specs for the binary file format and the algorithms used for decompression and demosaicing, I doubt they provide that.
Ah, that is the rub... The software libs included in an SDK are one thing, but some of the value comes with the documentation, in my experience. But since the infoPix system is all about performance, the included libs are hopefully well optimized and usable as is...

In this case, since it is an intellectual property intensive product, I can see where they may hesitate to provide the algorithms. Some SDKs/products are all about convenience and not having to "roll your own" so they tend to be more open about it. Not that I am happy about them not providing such things, I can just see why they may not.
Using SDKs directly also means numerous APIs, one for each SDK, instead of one API.
Why don't you contact intopix
Why don't I contact a 3rd party about a Nikon raw... Seriously? What does it solve?
I thought the point was Nikon is using that 3rd party raw format & codec.
 
If you want the tech specs for the binary file format and the algorithms used for decompression and demosaicing, I doubt they provide that.
Ah, that is the rub... The software libs included in an SDK are one thing, but some of the value comes with the documentation, in my experience. But since the infoPix system is all about performance, the included libs are hopefully well optimized and usable as is...

In this case, since it is an intellectual property intensive product, I can see where they may hesitate to provide the algorithms. Some SDKs/products are all about convenience and not having to "roll your own" so they tend to be more open about it. Not that I am happy about them not providing such things, I can just see why they may not.
Using SDKs directly also means numerous APIs, one for each SDK, instead of one API.
Why don't you contact intopix
Why don't I contact a 3rd party about a Nikon raw... Seriously? What does it solve?
I thought the point was Nikon is using that 3rd party raw format & codec.
"Licensed" and "using" are two very different things.
 
Using SDKs directly also means numerous APIs, one for each SDK, instead of one API.
Since you have so much direct experience dealing with undocumented RAW formats from so many vendors what’s your best guess at this early stage? Is this all a bit of a tempest in a teapot and not really that different from any other new RAW format that may require reverse engineering? Seems very similar approach technically to Canon’s CRAW - how did that pan out?
CR3 took a lot of effort, close to a year. Current Canon decoder incorporates some code similar to what we have in LibRaw, which speeds things up a bit. We can't be sure of course, but maybe they looked into what we have.

I can't predict how much time it will take with HE, because it also depends on how lucky we are with our guesses.

I'm still very much amazed the raw formats are kept secret. Don't see the point.
Iliah, just want to say that as a user of libraw, I really appreciate your efforts to keep up with this crap. Without it, I wouldn't have had much success in developing a full-featured raw processor all by myself.

In fact, here's a shout-out to the libraries I've found instrumental in my endeavor:

LibRaw - reads a humongous number raw formats
LittleCMS - color management for a "color mechanic" like me
exiv2 - all things metadata
librtprocess - most-excellent demosaics and highlight reconstruction from RawTherapee

Libraw and exiv2 developers do the heavy lifting figuring all these image formats with little to no help from the manufacturers, and in a pretty responsive manner considering they do this for free. Thanks!

And yeah, me too, I really don't get why the manufacturers don't make the effort to make the products of their precious products more usable. Although, recent efforts to field things like Apple ProRaw represent a goofy sort of compromise, high-bitdepth RGB that's more amenable to editing (really, nothing a 16-bit TIFF with an embedded color profile couldn't do...)
 
Last edited:
Using SDKs directly also means numerous APIs, one for each SDK, instead of one API.
Since you have so much direct experience dealing with undocumented RAW formats from so many vendors what’s your best guess at this early stage? Is this all a bit of a tempest in a teapot and not really that different from any other new RAW format that may require reverse engineering? Seems very similar approach technically to Canon’s CRAW - how did that pan out?
CR3 took a lot of effort, close to a year. Current Canon decoder incorporates some code similar to what we have in LibRaw, which speeds things up a bit. We can't be sure of course, but maybe they looked into what we have.

I can't predict how much time it will take with HE, because it also depends on how lucky we are with our guesses.

I'm still very much amazed the raw formats are kept secret. Don't see the point.
Iliah, just want to say that as a user of libraw, I really appreciate your efforts to keep up with this crap. Without it, I wouldn't have had much success in developing a full-featured raw processor all by myself.

In fact, here's a shout-out to the libraries I've found instrumental in my endeavor:

LibRaw - reads a humongous number raw formats
LittleCMS - color management for a "color mechanic" like me
exiv2 - all things metadata
librtprocess - most-excellent demosaics and highlight reconstruction from RawTherapee

Libraw and exiv2 developers do the heavy lifting figuring all these image formats with little to no help from the manufacturers, and in a pretty responsive manner considering they do this for free. Thanks!

And yeah, me too, I really don't get why the manufacturers don't make the effort to make the products of their precious products more usable. Although, recent efforts to field things like Apple ProRaw represent a goofy sort of compromise, high-bitdepth RGB that's more amenable to editing (really, nothing a 16-bit TIFF with an embedded color profile couldn't do...)
My eternal gratitude goes to two pioneers, Dave Coffin (dcraw) and Phil Harvey (ExifTool).

Without the efforts of hundreds, if not thousands of people who donated their time and knowledge, coding, testing, shooting and providing raw samples, LibRaw would never come through.
 
You cannot use the software anymore or nobody would continue paying the fee
That’s incorrect. Without paying for LR you can continue to open your library with access to all your edited files and you may continue to export all those files with all the various export options. In fact you may still even make minor adjustments using the Quick Develop panel in the Library module. You can still use the Print module with all its settings. You can actually import new photos and edit their metadata.
None of this is really useful for new files taken with a new camera
There is a surprising amount you can do with LR for “free” actually. Anything that is not in the Map or Develop module is available for free always.
You can do a lot more with some of the free software
Leonard’s post was spot on.
Not IMO
 
Using SDKs directly also means numerous APIs, one for each SDK, instead of one API.
Since you have so much direct experience dealing with undocumented RAW formats from so many vendors what’s your best guess at this early stage? Is this all a bit of a tempest in a teapot and not really that different from any other new RAW format that may require reverse engineering? Seems very similar approach technically to Canon’s CRAW - how did that pan out?
CR3 took a lot of effort, close to a year. Current Canon decoder incorporates some code similar to what we have in LibRaw, which speeds things up a bit. We can't be sure of course, but maybe they looked into what we have.

I can't predict how much time it will take with HE, because it also depends on how lucky we are with our guesses.

I'm still very much amazed the raw formats are kept secret. Don't see the point.
Thanks a bunch for taking the time to reply. I guess we can expect it could be as bad as reverse engineering CR3 unless there are some lucky breaks - which is presumably worse than many of the older and simpler encoding schemes.

Yes, the undocumented raw formats seem entirely pointless. None of these manufacturers is making money off of their in house image editing programs so no sense in attempting to protect the raw format. Quite the opposite - make it as easy to deal with as possible for the largest compatibility base. Well, I guess it isn't the only inscrutable thing the camera manufacturers do...

And of course thanks in advance for all the likely effort you'll put into disentangling the mess along with all the other folks in the community who do similar.
 
Last edited:
Using SDKs directly also means numerous APIs, one for each SDK, instead of one API.
Since you have so much direct experience dealing with undocumented RAW formats from so many vendors what’s your best guess at this early stage? Is this all a bit of a tempest in a teapot and not really that different from any other new RAW format that may require reverse engineering? Seems very similar approach technically to Canon’s CRAW - how did that pan out?
CR3 took a lot of effort, close to a year. Current Canon decoder incorporates some code similar to what we have in LibRaw, which speeds things up a bit. We can't be sure of course, but maybe they looked into what we have.

I can't predict how much time it will take with HE, because it also depends on how lucky we are with our guesses.

I'm still very much amazed the raw formats are kept secret. Don't see the point.
Thanks a bunch for taking the time to reply. I guess we can expect it could be as bad as reverse engineering CR3 unless there are some lucky breaks - which is presumably worse than many of the older and simpler encoding schemes.
Plan for the worst, hope for the best ;)
Yes, the undocumented raw formats seem entirely pointless. None of these manufacturers is making money off of their in house image editing programs so no sense in attempting to protect the raw format. Quite the opposite - make it as easy to deal with as possible for the largest compatibility base. Well, I guess it isn't the only inscrutable thing the camera manufacturers do...
The other puzzling question is why call lossy formats raw ;)
And of course thanks in advance for all the likely effort you'll put into disentangling the mess along with all the other folks in the community who do similar.
;)
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top