Lack of detail in prints

Kai West · Nov 2, 2021

Hello fellow printers,

a few month ago I bought an EPSON XP-8600 to print my landscape images. I did plenty of reading, tested a ton of different papers and while I am now really satisfied with the colors and tone of my image once it comes out of the printer the lack of detail is killing me.

All reviewers ever talk about is image resolution and how much one needs it for a good print. But my prints simply do not have the same level of detail as the pictures on the screen. I tried all sorts of sharpening but to be honest I am very pleased with how my images look on a screen and I dislike most sharepning tools.

First I thought this has to do with my printing skills (which I have very little of) but then I ordered a portfolio book from a professional service (which was also very expensive) and there it was the same.

My conclusion is that on size A4 and smaller although the printers claim to print >600 DPI you really cannot make use of the mpx in the camera.

A4 at 300 DPI means 7 mpx. With 24 mpx would I need to print at >1000 DPI? Is that even possible? Does it mean all my prints need to be A3 and larger to contain the same level of detail as on the screen? Or am I missing somethig important here?

On my latest image I compared the level of detail with Hahnemuehle Fine Art William Turner vs Hanemuehle Fine Art Rag Baryta. William Turner has significantly more detail in the image. In your experience which paper has the highest level of detail (landscape images only)?

Thanks for the help

dRomano · Nov 2, 2021

Kai West said:
Hello fellow printers,

a few month ago I bought an EPSON XP-8600 to print my landscape images. I did plenty of reading, tested a ton of different papers and while I am now really satisfied with the colors and tone of my image once it comes out of the printer the lack of detail is killing me.

All reviewers ever talk about is image resolution and how much one needs it for a good print. But my prints simply do not have the same level of detail as the pictures on the screen. I tried all sorts of sharpening but to be honest I am very pleased with how my images look on a screen and I dislike most sharepning tools.

First I thought this has to do with my printing skills (which I have very little of) but then I ordered a portfolio book from a professional service (which was also very expensive) and there it was the same.

My conclusion is that on size A4 and smaller although the printers claim to print >600 DPI you really cannot make use of the mpx in the camera.

A4 at 300 DPI means 7 mpx. With 24 mpx would I need to print at >1000 DPI? Is that even possible? Does it mean all my prints need to be A3 and larger to contain the same level of detail as on the screen? Or am I missing somethig important here?

On my latest image I compared the level of detail with Hahnemuehle Fine Art William Turner vs Hanemuehle Fine Art Rag Baryta. William Turner has significantly more detail in the image. In your experience which paper has the highest level of detail (landscape images only)?

Thanks for the help

You might be confusing pixels per inch (sensor and file) with dots per inch (printer output)

The short answer to your question is that the file should have a resolution of at least (epson) 360 pixels per inch at the size you are going to print it at. Then, you should print it with the printer set to 1440x1440 dpi or higher. Ultimately, print sharpness and detail resolution is limited by the paper and the paper's surface roughness. In my experience, there is no benefit to going higher than 1440x1440 dpi.

An 8x12 inch image would be 2880x4320 and be 12.4 mpix.

Kai West · Nov 2, 2021

Not sure I understand. In a perfect setting when I want to use the entire mpx count of the image with a set DPI e.g. 300 then the paper size would correspond to mpx/dpi? Hence A4 only requires 7 mpx.

I do not think my printer can do 1440 DPI. How are DPI and paper related? How can I have better detail with 300 DPI using William Turner compared to 600 DPI using Rag Baryta (those were the settings I used)?

dRomano · Nov 2, 2021

Kai West said:
Not sure I understand. In a perfect setting when I want to use the entire mpx count of the image with a set DPI e.g. 300 then the paper size would correspond to mpx/dpi? Hence A4 only requires 7 mpx.

No, the printer needs to use multiple dots for every image pixel. Use 1440, your printer does it. Don't use 5760.

Kai West said:
I do not think my printer can do 1440 DPI. How are DPI and paper related? How can I have better detail with 300 DPI using William Turner compared to 600 DPI using Rag Baryta (those were the settings I used)?

I'm not familiar with those papers. Some careful trial and error is your best teacher here. Definitely should not be printing at 300 dpi though. Your prints will look very low res and probably not even exhibit your sharpening.

Kai West · Nov 2, 2021

Ok I did not realize that.

I just tried to print from Lightroom with 1440 DPI. This ended up in a blurry mess. Probably not the right setting?

Box Brownie · Nov 2, 2021

Hi

When you post process and output the jpeg file for printing you need to be aware of two factors;_

Your optimal resolution is 300dpi

The larger the print at 300dpi the larger the file "X by Y" needs to be.

In the past I found myself referring to this table quite often as an aide memoire in regard to the above

Help Center - DPC Prints!

If the file dimensions at 300 dpi are too low for say the 8 x 12inch print then you either need to print at a lower resolution e.g. 150 dpi or upsize the file in Photoshop or other suitable software.

I hope that has helped you

dRomano · Nov 2, 2021

I don't know, you're going to have to work through it. There's a lot to know about printing

Kai West · Nov 2, 2021

Box Brownie said:
Hi

When you post process and output the jpeg file for printing you need to be aware of two factors;_

Your optimal resolution is 300dpi

The larger the print at 300dpi the larger the file "X by Y" needs to be.

In the past I found myself referring to this table quite often as an aide memoire in regard to the above

Help Center - DPC Prints!

If the file dimensions at 300 dpi are too low for say the 8 x 12inch print then you either need to print at a lower resolution e.g. 150 dpi or upsize the file in Photoshop or other suitable software.

I hope that has helped you

Yes that helped!

However, in this case my resolution is too high. Does it simply mean I cannot get the level of detail in a print? Or at least not with the printer I have? Or is this all down to the paper that I use?

NAwlins Contrarian · Nov 2, 2021

Kai West said:
a few month ago I bought an EPSON XP-8600 to print my landscape images. I did plenty of reading, tested a ton of different papers and while I am now really satisfied with the colors and tone of my image once it comes out of the printer the lack of detail is killing me.

All reviewers ever talk about is image resolution and how much one needs it for a good print. But my prints simply do not have the same level of detail as the pictures on the screen. I tried all sorts of sharpening but to be honest I am very pleased with how my images look on a screen and I dislike most sharepning tools.

I think you may be both overthinking this, and barking up the wrong tree. What software are you using to print? Personally I really like Qimage, but Lightroom and many others can do a competent or better job. What are all the settings are you using in the software and the printer driver? In some Epsons, maximum photo quality is called "Photo RPM" or similar.

As for resolution: the XP-8600 has the ability to print all of the detail that your eyes can see. Its native resolution(s) at the highest photo-quality settings is/are 360 and/or 720 pixels (not dots) per inch (ppi). If your image is detailed and your eyes are good, then in some cases you can see a slight increase in fine detail going from 360 to 720 ppi, but that's about it. Even if you use borderless mode, covering an A4 sheet probably requires somewhere roughly around 3050x4300 pixels (it changes a bit with the amount of expansion setting in the printer driver). If you've got that or more, then it's fine. If you have a 24MP image, then it needs to be cropped and scaled for whatever the printer needs. Good software does this very well, but maybe some software does it not so well.

NAwlins Contrarian · Nov 2, 2021

Box Brownie said:
Your optimal resolution is 300dpi

No. The Epson XP-8600 is a 360 and/or 720 pixels per inch (or ppi, not dpi = dots per inch) printer. To form those 360 and/or 720 ppi, the XP-8600 uses, in maximum-quality mode, 5760x1440 dpi, which refers to the droplets of its six colors of ink.

Box Brownie said:
The larger the print at 300dpi the larger the file "X by Y" needs to be.

If you're not printing in borderless mode, then the image needs its dimension in inches x either 360 or 720 pixels per inch for the pixel counts. Of course A4 implies metric, so some conversion is necessary. So e.g, if the OP is printing 20x25cm on A4 paper, then the pixels needed to print that are 2835x3543 at 360 ppi, or 5669x7087 at 720 ppi. Lightroom's Print module will do a good job resampling from the image's resolution to the resolution needed for the print 'under the hood', so just put 360 (or 720) in the box in the Print module.

Kai West · Nov 2, 2021

NAwlins Contrarian said:
NAwlins Contrarian said:

a few month ago I bought an EPSON XP-8600 to print my landscape images. I did plenty of reading, tested a ton of different papers and while I am now really satisfied with the colors and tone of my image once it comes out of the printer the lack of detail is killing me.

All reviewers ever talk about is image resolution and how much one needs it for a good print. But my prints simply do not have the same level of detail as the pictures on the screen. I tried all sorts of sharpening but to be honest I am very pleased with how my images look on a screen and I dislike most sharepning tools.

Click to expand...

I think you may be both overthinking this, and barking up the wrong tree. What software are you using to print? Personally I really like Qimage, but Lightroom and many others can do a competent or better job. What are all the settings are you using in the software and the printer driver? In some Epsons, maximum photo quality is called "Photo RPM" or similar.

As for resolution: the XP-8600 has the ability to print all of the detail that your eyes can see. Its native resolution(s) at the highest photo-quality settings is/are 360 and/or 720 pixels (not dots) per inch (ppi). If your image is detailed and your eyes are good, then in some cases you can see a slight increase in fine detail going from 360 to 720 ppi, but that's about it. Even if you use borderless mode, covering an A4 sheet probably requires somewhere roughly around 3050x4300 pixels (it changes a bit with the amount of expansion setting in the printer driver). If you've got that or more, then it's fine. If you have a 24MP image, then it needs to be cropped and scaled for whatever the printer needs. Good software does this very well, but maybe some software does it not so well.

Thanks for the detailed answer. I simply use the lightroom default printing module. I always add a border to the image. I picked the color profile of the respective paper brand and I let the printer and lightroom do the rest. Some settings are changed are the print quality to very high and I add some brightness and sharpness to the image via the slider in lightroom. I think I add 5 to both.

The images I print and frame look fine if you stand 0.5 m away from them. So really it is only a dissapointment after the print when I inspect the image close up. After that I don't mind anymore.

NAwlins Contrarian · Nov 2, 2021

Kai West said:
Kai West said:

Personally I really like Qimage, but Lightroom and many others can do a competent or better job. What are all the settings are you using in the software and the printer driver? In some Epsons, maximum photo quality is called "Photo RPM" or similar.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed answer. I simply use the lightroom default printing module.

You're welcome, and Lightroom's Print module is quite capable; I used it for years until I got Qimage. To print from LR to your XP-8600, in the Print module, check the Print Resolution checkbox and set it to 360 ppi, check the Print Sharpening checkbox and start with Standard (adjusting it higher or lower as desired), set the appropriate Media Type, noting that "Glossy" is probably better for e.g. semigloss and luster papers.

Then there's also the printer driver side. At least in the Windows version of LR, click the Page Setup... button. What settings are you using from there?

Kai West said:
The images I print and frame look fine if you stand 0.5 m away from them. So really it is only a dissapointment after the print when I inspect the image close up. After that I don't mind anymore.

Maybe your eyes focus much closer / much better than mine, but 0.5m (just under 20") is getting toward the shorter end of distances at which I can focus well, although I think I can examine prints as close as about 12" / 0.3 m.

But with a sufficiently-detailed source photo, the print should look sharp and detailed from as close as your eyes can focus.

One last thing: Epson has an alignment check / set function in most of its printer drivers. Have you tried that?

theironmadchen · Nov 2, 2021

Jeff Schewe has a good article (from 2017, but still applies) about finding the right resolution for print: https://www.digitalphotopro.com/technique/photography-workflow/the-right-resolution/

In it, he gives examples of printing details using Epson at native and upsampled print resolutions.

Hope that helps!

Cathy

Kai West · Nov 3, 2021

NAwlins Contrarian said:
NAwlins Contrarian said:

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Personally I really like Qimage, but Lightroom and many others can do a competent or better job. What are all the settings are you using in the software and the printer driver? In some Epsons, maximum photo quality is called "Photo RPM" or similar.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed answer. I simply use the lightroom default printing module.

Click to expand...

You're welcome, and Lightroom's Print module is quite capable; I used it for years until I got Qimage. To print from LR to your XP-8600, in the Print module, check the Print Resolution checkbox and set it to 360 ppi, check the Print Sharpening checkbox and start with Standard (adjusting it higher or lower as desired), set the appropriate Media Type, noting that "Glossy" is probably better for e.g. semigloss and luster papers.

Then there's also the printer driver side. At least in the Windows version of LR, click the Page Setup... button. What settings are you using from there?

NAwlins Contrarian said:

The images I print and frame look fine if you stand 0.5 m away from them. So really it is only a dissapointment after the print when I inspect the image close up. After that I don't mind anymore.

Click to expand...

Maybe your eyes focus much closer / much better than mine, but 0.5m (just under 20") is getting toward the shorter end of distances at which I can focus well, although I think I can examine prints as close as about 12" / 0.3 m.

But with a sufficiently-detailed source photo, the print should look sharp and detailed from as close as your eyes can focus.

One last thing: Epson has an alignment check / set function in most of its printer drivers. Have you tried that?

I will check all of these settings. Thanks for taking the time!

Dan Berg · Nov 3, 2021

Let's see if we can simplify this.

Take your cameras pixel dimensions.

Example a 24mp camera is 4000x6000.

Now if you divide 300 into each number that is the size print you will get at 300 dpi.

Answer 13.3"x20"

If you want to print @360 the size print at that resolution will give you a smaller print.

We do a lot of canvas and up res up to 200% in either On1's Perfect Resize or Gigapixel AI.

Both very good programs. Try using Lightrooms new Enhance.

Dan Berg

Berg's Print Studio - Printmaking Services - Wall Art

bergscanvasgallery.com

Printmaking Photo Mounting & Framing Workshops

Kai West · Nov 5, 2021

Dan Berg said:
Let's see if we can simplify this.

Take your cameras pixel dimensions.

Example a 24mp camera is 4000x6000.

Now if you divide 300 into each number that is the size print you will get at 300 dpi.

Answer 13.3"x20"

If you want to print @360 the size print at that resolution will give you a smaller print.

We do a lot of canvas and up res up to 200% in either On1's Perfect Resize or Gigapixel AI.

Both very good programs. Try using Lightrooms new Enhance.

Dan Berg
http://bergscanvasgallery.com
Printmaking Photo Mounting & Framing Workshops

Thanks Dan,

my issue is actually the other way around. I have plenty of resolution but it does not show on paper. For example the pine trees in another one of my images are very well defined on the screen but on paper they are just blurry. Or the same with the pebbles on a beach. On the screen I can tell them perfectly apart but not on paper. Similarly stars in the night sky. The screen is full of stars, the paper only really shows the milky way.

In my mind I have too much resolution for the size of print that I make. Or I simply have the wrong settings, the wrong paper or something else is not quite right.

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Lack of detail in prints

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