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Fuji's new Stacked Sensor
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Artur Darulewski
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readout speed - OK, but are you sure about low light performance with smaller pixels? Maybe I missed something but I couldn't find improved low light performance as immanent feature of stacked sensors.
Cheers,
Artur
Lukedriftwood
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Yes pixels are smaller in a 40MP sensor vs current 26MP. But the sensor size remains the same, the entire sensor receives same amount of light.
Low light performance will be about the same.
HatWearingFool
Veteran Member
Smaller pixels with an equal output size should give better low light performance. Not a crazy amount but increased performance would be expected if everything else is the same.
But the increase in readout should give much better AF, no black-out, and do away with the need for a mechanical shutter in most circumstances.
It could open the doors to computational photography as well, but traditional camera manufactures have really resisted this so far so I doubt Fuji will do anything here.
Bobby V
Senior Member
The main benefit I would foresee is greatly reduced rolling shutter effects in e-shutter modes given the reduced readout speed, which translates to a *very usable* electronic shutter for most stills scenarios and also video. Sony A9 sensor readout speed is 1/160th, for example, which is about 10X faster than conventional sensors.
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Tom Schum
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I've missed the announcement. Can you supply a link?
HatWearingFool
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Jared Willson
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Much faster readout, yes, enabling electronic shutter in a larger range of situations with little if any rolling shutter and little if any viewfinder blackout.
I disagree on the better low light performance. The current 26 megapixel sensor has quantum efficiency peaking around 90% with read noise of around 3e- at 160 ISO with a pretty good full well capacity, and around 1.3e- at 500 ISO where the dual gain mode kicks in. I wouldn't expect the newer sensor to improve on that significantly--those are really good numbers even by the most recent standards.
Obviously, the additional megapixels also have the potential to deliver higher resolution depending on the usual cast of characters--motion blur, diffraction, optical aberrations, focus accuracy, depth of field, etc.
The new chip should be a huge win for sports, wildlife, reportage/street, etc. The extra resolution will also be of benefit to landscape and product photographers. This all assumes there is no significant step back compared to the current 26 megapixel chip in terms of read noise, thermal noise, amp glow, or sensitivity/quantum efficiency. No reason to think there would be, but we won't know till the first camera using the new chip is released.
Lukedriftwood
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10x is an exaggeration.
Current non-stacked FF sensors have an e-shutter transit time of about 1/40s to 1/60s.
The very best a1 manages 1/250s.
B
BDevils
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It doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree. BSI sensors have better low light performance.
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en.m.wikipedia.org
Canadianguy
Veteran Member
Article about the upcoming Nikon Z9 but they talk about stacked sensors
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2...-cmos-is-key-to-nikon-s-pro-mirrorless-camera
Disadvantages - $$$ - every camera that has used one has been uber expensive.
So interesting for Fujifilm to be using it as they don't tend to switch sensors between their flagship model and entry level model...maybe Sony has gotten the production costs to come down for them or Fujifilm going to a duo sensor strategy for their next generation rollout...
There are rumours of 2 different X-H2 models being released ...
Just my guess here; one with the stacked sensor and one without and priced accordingly. This would allow the non-stacked sensor to be rolled out to the rest of the fujifilm lineup without rising the price of the lower models.
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Bobby V
Senior Member
1/160 for the A9
1/15 Z7, A7RIII, etc.
= 10x faster
This guy measured the a9 with an oscilloscope.
https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/how-fast-is-the-sony-a9-electronic-shutter/
Also:
"We estimate the readout speed of this sensor at roughly 1/15 sec: a rate comparable with the Sony a7R III."
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Artur Darulewski
Senior Member
But according Fujifilm X-Trans IV IS Back Illuminated sensor:
So I wouldn't expect substantial improvement in LL performance. Stacked sensor technology (with integrated memory) should improve readout speed and reduce rolling shutter effect - It's obvious.
Cheers,
Artur
Jared Willson
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The current 26 megapixel sensor is already BSI. That's not a change in the new sensor--it's a continuation.
Samuraidog
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That's an interesting theory that I haven't seen before. Makes sense though.
Even if Fuji buys off the shelf sensors from Sony or anyone for that matter, the XTrans CFA makes it a semi custom chip which would require setup cost. The fewer number of chips, the fewer sensors to spread this fixed cost over. I expect the reason Fuji uses the same sensor in all but it’s entry level cameras is to get an economy of scale. If the go with two sensors they will lose that economy of scale.
One reason for the uber expensive price tag is that larger sensors are an order of magnitude more expensive than smaller sensors, it doesn't scale linearly by surface area.
Also, since full frame flagships are more expensive, they also sell fewer models. That in turn means lower order quantities, which again means much higher unit costs.
In recent years, full frame cameras have captured a bigger and bigger slice of the market in $$$, but in unit terms they are still well down on APSC, which has a big impact on sensor cost. That was possible because most of the full frame market actually uses older designs for sensors which are available at relatively low cost (the Sony A7iii for example).
I expect Fuji to order a stacked sensor for all its main lineup, maybe with a couple of entry level cameras using the 26 megapixel sensor. This will give them economies of scale and a competitive advantage over the full frame manufacturers. It has always worked in the past for them - even the 26 megapixel sensor was a cutting edge design when it came out. AFAIK, it has only just appeared in one other APSC camera from Pentax - and at a high price.
Canadianguy
Veteran Member
Sure - I guess Sony could have made a break though in their manufacturing processes to make stacked sensors cheaper.
But the current 26 MP sensor that Fujifilm is using benefitted from the scaling that Sony was able to get from it.
150 MP - 54x41
102 MP - 44x33
60 MP - 35mm
26 - APS-C
All 4 sensors use the same pixel design - its just in different sizes.
For the new stacked sensor - I currently don't see any scaling in the different sizes. The current stacked sensors on the market - A9 at 24 MP, A1 at 50 MP, Canon's R3 at 24 MP, and the Nikon's Z9 at 45 MP is all over the map.
The announced Sony IMX472-AAJK is m4/3 at 22 MP - not sure if the math works to scale that up to the 40 MP APS-C size that Fujifilm is talking about?
The rumours are that Panasonic GH6 maybe using a stacked sensor and it will be $2500 USD as a point of reference.
That kind of gives me an idea of how much the promised X-H2 camera is going to costs if it uses a stacked sensor. I am in agreement with you that Fujifilm will be going to a duo sensor strategy if they switch to a stacked sensor because I just don't see a $899 body with an APS-C stacked sensor in 2022 or 2023. But what do you consider its main line-up?
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