ISO is camera sensitivity, not sensor sensitivity

I think the processing stream between the sensor and the ADC is designed to condition the signal into the ADC to match the output
I think you meant input there.
requirements from the ADC, which may of course include ISO as one of the influencing characteristics of the output
The ISO setting is certainly one of the 'influencing characteristics' since it can be taken as a guide to the expected exposure, and therefore how large the full scale is likely to be. ISO itself has nothing to do with the sensor.
I think most of these ISO discussions could be avoided if cameras had two controls, one labelled Exposure Compensation, and the other labelled Noise Reduction. No "ISO" control at all.
Clearly, if cameras didn't have an ISO control there would be no discussion of what it did.
The NR control would affect analog gain and the NR in the JPG engine. EC as now.
There is the question of which control would set the lightness of the final rendering for in-camera JPEGs. I think also if you really want to be able to fine tune control of your camera you'd want independent control of read-chain gain and NR.

But in the end, I don't think there is a need for either a gain control or an ISO control, especially in mirrorless cameras.
Interesting point. To me, ISO control = dynamic range/image quality control.
That's not what the ISO control is intended to do, that's working with the side effects built into the ISO control, which vary from camera to camera. The primary means of maximising IQ is maximising exposure, the effect of the ISO control in terms of DR is pretty complex, but revolves around whether or not its making best use of the exposure that you have. In general DR is maximised by maximising exposure, with a last tweak being given by using the ISO setting which gives lowest read noise but can accept the exposure you're using.
So in landscape photography, I set ISO first (base ISO 100 most of the time) to make sure I get max dynamic range. Then I set aperture and shutter speed, the latter can usually vary wildly. So most of the time, my priorities are ISO > f-stop > shutter speed. When I take a long exposure shot, it's still ISO 100 and ND filters. In rare cases I'm really constrained in terms of exposure, I'd increase ISO after exposure (ETTR through ISO - very close to manual plus auto ISO).
That's what I call 'ISO first' technique, and it has its problems. Essentially you are making a guess at the exposure you'll use in advance of metering it. The assumption that you make setting the lowest ISO for landscape shots is that none of your creative constraints will lead to a lower exposure than the nominal for the base ISO. The using of base ISO and ND filters is exactly equivalent in exposure terms to stopping down.

ISO first works OK if you never leave base ISO, but if you do, generally has the effect of you ending up with a lower exposure than your creative constraints would allow, because you end up using the nominal exposure for the ISO that you guessed in the first place. My preferred technique is what I call 'exposure first', where you set the f-number for the minimum DOF you want, and the shutter speed for the motion blur you want (or don't want). Then you set the ISO to match. If you go down to the lowest ISO and the exposure is too big, then you reduce it. That is a straightforward and mechanistic procedure. It is easily automated (with auto ISO currently) and always leads to the best IQ and DR that your creative constraints allow.
The sensor readout for viewing/metering gives the camera all the information that it needs about the range of exposures over the sensor, and it can use an algorithm to optimise gain which would take into account the detailed specification of the sensor, and do a better job than would the photographer who has either no information of some derived information such as DxOMark or Bill Claff. All it needs to do is to adjust the gain to maximise the capture of information in the detected range of exposures. As for ISO, it really is a rendering intent control, apart from the setting of the target exposure. Since the camera has all of the information about the captured range of exposures, it is in a position to make a decision about how to render it based on that information - auto ISO, if you like. As for 'EC', what it does now is bias the meter. I would prefer an explicit metering calibration facility, with banks to allow different calibrations to be stored. The role of controlling lightness (which it does sub-optimally by changing exposure) could be done with a rendering intent control.

But, the standardised UI is what it is. I doubt that any of the camera manufacturers will change it.
Having the ISO setting may also be important in production to have consistent settings across all cameras used in the field.
Which settings are you talking about? If you want consistent settings, why not just set them consistently?
 
My camera may perform better at ISO 400 than ISO 320 (because of the very same dual conversion gain).
That is the case, but you have to know quite a lot about the camera's unpublished specification to make use of it. And it isn't using 'ISO', it's using unpublished side effects of the particular camera's ISO control, so really doesn't apply to the general case of whether letting the camera choose ISO is or isn't sensible. Also, it's pretty subtle, and dependent on what the exposure is. If you're using teh full exposure range for the ISO, then you'll gain one third of a stop exposure at 320, which will give lower shot noise everywhere. By using an ISO above the conversion gain step you gain a little in read noise, for instance on the Z50, you get 1.2DN improvement. Given that full scale is about 16000, that's a pretty minimal improvement, and in most use is going to be hidden below the black level. It's an optimisation, but not a critical one, unless you're obsessed by tweaking the last little bit out of everything.
Also by setting ISO manually using the histogram, I avoid accidental highlight clipping that may happen with auto ISO. So in cases when I'm exposure-constrained ('exposure priority') I set the ISO last, but without using in-camera metering.
Sure, there are metering methods better in some circumstances than in-camera metering. To a first order, given that ISO isn't exactly critical, you can get the same effect by using EC to make the auto-ISO allow a bit of headroom. Depending on your camera, you likely had quite a bit of raw headroom beyond the right of the histogram anyway. Highlight metering is another useful technique.
 
I think the processing stream between the sensor and the ADC is designed to condition the signal into the ADC to match the output
I think you meant input there.
requirements from the ADC, which may of course include ISO as one of the influencing characteristics of the output
The ISO setting is certainly one of the 'influencing characteristics' since it can be taken as a guide to the expected exposure, and therefore how large the full scale is likely to be. ISO itself has nothing to do with the sensor.
I think most of these ISO discussions could be avoided if cameras had two controls, one labelled Exposure Compensation, and the other labelled Noise Reduction. No "ISO" control at all.
Clearly, if cameras didn't have an ISO control there would be no discussion of what it did.
The NR control would affect analog gain and the NR in the JPG engine. EC as now.
There is the question of which control would set the lightness of the final rendering for in-camera JPEGs. I think also if you really want to be able to fine tune control of your camera you'd want independent control of read-chain gain and NR.

But in the end, I don't think there is a need for either a gain control or an ISO control, especially in mirrorless cameras.
Interesting point. To me, ISO control = dynamic range/image quality control.
That's not what the ISO control is intended to do, that's working with the side effects built into the ISO control, which vary from camera to camera.
Yes, definitely and unfortunately, it's camera-specific. I know it's a side effect of how ISO setting affects the reading and processing chain in camera, but it works.
The primary means of maximising IQ is maximising exposure, the effect of the ISO control in terms of DR is pretty complex, but revolves around whether or not its making best use of the exposure that you have. In general DR is maximised by maximising exposure, with a last tweak being given by using the ISO setting which gives lowest read noise but can accept the exposure you're using.
So in landscape photography, I set ISO first (base ISO 100 most of the time) to make sure I get max dynamic range. Then I set aperture and shutter speed, the latter can usually vary wildly. So most of the time, my priorities are ISO > f-stop > shutter speed. When I take a long exposure shot, it's still ISO 100 and ND filters. In rare cases I'm really constrained in terms of exposure, I'd increase ISO after exposure (ETTR through ISO - very close to manual plus auto ISO).
That's what I call 'ISO first' technique, and it has its problems. Essentially you are making a guess at the exposure you'll use in advance of metering it.
In many scenarios, acceptable shutter speed may vary from say 1/1000 to 1s, basically, 10 stops easily. There's a lot of room to adjust the exposure, and no need to even guess it.
The assumption that you make setting the lowest ISO for landscape shots is that none of your creative constraints will lead to a lower exposure than the nominal for the base ISO.
That's true. In some cases I need a specific shutter speed, e.g. around 0.5s for seascapes/waves/surf. But in such cases exposure gets to high and requires ND filters, as below.
The using of base ISO and ND filters is exactly equivalent in exposure terms to stopping down.

ISO first works OK if you never leave base ISO, but if you do, generally has the effect of you ending up with a lower exposure than your creative constraints would allow, because you end up using the nominal exposure for the ISO that you guessed in the first place.
No, as above, in such cases I set the exposure first and then tweak ISO to get an ETTR-like histogram. So it's very close to Manual+Auto ISO, only I think I get more optimal ISO in the end. In such cases, t resulting ISO setting is also an indicator of prospective noise/IQ.
My preferred technique is what I call 'exposure first', where you set the f-number for the minimum DOF you want, and the shutter speed for the motion blur you want (or don't want). Then you set the ISO to match. If you go down to the lowest ISO and the exposure is too big, then you reduce it. That is a straightforward and mechanistic procedure. It is easily automated (with auto ISO currently) and always leads to the best IQ and DR that your creative constraints allow.
Auto ISO uses in-camera metering with a risk of blowing the highlights. Normally I don't want to blow any highlights in a landscape shot (not talking about the sun in the frame), so I use the histogram, which effectively serves as a manual metering mode - again very close to auto ISO, as you described, only replacing auto metering with manual by histogram.
The sensor readout for viewing/metering gives the camera all the information that it needs about the range of exposures over the sensor, and it can use an algorithm to optimise gain which would take into account the detailed specification of the sensor, and do a better job than would the photographer who has either no information of some derived information such as DxOMark or Bill Claff. All it needs to do is to adjust the gain to maximise the capture of information in the detected range of exposures. As for ISO, it really is a rendering intent control, apart from the setting of the target exposure. Since the camera has all of the information about the captured range of exposures, it is in a position to make a decision about how to render it based on that information - auto ISO, if you like. As for 'EC', what it does now is bias the meter. I would prefer an explicit metering calibration facility, with banks to allow different calibrations to be stored. The role of controlling lightness (which it does sub-optimally by changing exposure) could be done with a rendering intent control.

But, the standardised UI is what it is. I doubt that any of the camera manufacturers will change it.
Having the ISO setting may also be important in production to have consistent settings across all cameras used in the field.
Which settings are you talking about? If you want consistent settings, why not just set them consistently?
ISO is a reference point to synchronise different cameras so that they produce consistent output for future processing. Especially relevant in video production. If a camera manufacturer completely removes ISO setting, as you suggest above, how would a video or stills camera operator make sure their settings match other cameras?
 
Interesting point. To me, ISO control = dynamic range/image quality control.
That's not what the ISO control is intended to do, that's working with the side effects built into the ISO control, which vary from camera to camera.
Yes, definitely and unfortunately, it's camera-specific. I know it's a side effect of how ISO setting affects the reading and processing chain in camera, but it works.
There are lots of techniques that work due to exploitation of side effects. All of them require good knowledge of what those side effects are.
That's what I call 'ISO first' technique, and it has its problems. Essentially you are making a guess at the exposure you'll use in advance of metering it.
In many scenarios, acceptable shutter speed may vary from say 1/1000 to 1s, basically, 10 stops easily. There's a lot of room to adjust the exposure, and no need to even guess it.
You're still making a guess. In that case you want the slowest of that range of shutter speeds that, along with your choice of f-number and the scene illuminance, results in the largest exposure that your camera will accept. I think that for general landscape use 1s is pushing it. You lose leaf detail, unless the day is dead calm or the scene is barren.

Still the principle there is that you'll be working at the lowest ISO you have, but you've still made a guess that the scene will allow that. The thing about the exposure-first method is that it always works, you don't need an exception for this kind of shot or that kind of shot. Of course, when you get experience with different types of shot you can adopt shortcuts, as you do with most techniques.
The assumption that you make setting the lowest ISO for landscape shots is that none of your creative constraints will lead to a lower exposure than the nominal for the base ISO.
That's true. In some cases I need a specific shutter speed, e.g. around 0.5s for seascapes/waves/surf. But in such cases exposure gets to high and requires ND filters, as below.
Sure, in that specific case, you're always working with the limit that your camera will accept.
The using of base ISO and ND filters is exactly equivalent in exposure terms to stopping down.

ISO first works OK if you never leave base ISO, but if you do, generally has the effect of you ending up with a lower exposure than your creative constraints would allow, because you end up using the nominal exposure for the ISO that you guessed in the first place.
No, as above, in such cases I set the exposure first and then tweak ISO to get an ETTR-like histogram. So it's very close to Manual+Auto ISO, only I think I get more optimal ISO in the end. In such cases, t resulting ISO setting is also an indicator of prospective noise/IQ.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that you can't get 'more optimal' ISO if you set it yourself, just that the difference is small enough, and the convenience great enough to make auto ISO a practically better option. The general rule for optimising ISO after setting exposure is to set it as high as you can without clipping highlights. Auto ISO will do that, possibly requiring some EC to protect the highlights. Fine tuning involves stopping raising the ISO after the camera reaches the invariant point, which can be dealt with in many auto ISO implementations by setting an ISO limit, and making an alternate choice at the gain switch point if you have dual conversion gain. As I said before, I don't think that it's clear that you gain by moving to a higher ISO, and with auto ISO suitably set up, if that higher ISO doesn't clip the highlights it will be selected in any case.
My preferred technique is what I call 'exposure first', where you set the f-number for the minimum DOF you want, and the shutter speed for the motion blur you want (or don't want). Then you set the ISO to match. If you go down to the lowest ISO and the exposure is too big, then you reduce it. That is a straightforward and mechanistic procedure. It is easily automated (with auto ISO currently) and always leads to the best IQ and DR that your creative constraints allow.
Auto ISO uses in-camera metering with a risk of blowing the highlights. Normally I don't want to blow any highlights in a landscape shot (not talking about the sun in the frame), so I use the histogram, which effectively serves as a manual metering mode - again very close to auto ISO, as you described, only replacing auto metering with manual by histogram.
Yes, as above, there are places where you can make a better choice than auto ISO, but if you want to protect the highlights you can use highlight metering (with auto ISO) or an appropriate amount of EC. Histograms are not a universal recipe for avoiding blowing highlights. For a start, if you're using a raw workflow a JPEG histogram will give false alarms, and also the resolution of the histogram can be quite coarse, and there can be highlights which don't represent a large enough proportion of pixels to show up on the histogram.
Having the ISO setting may also be important in production to have consistent settings across all cameras used in the field.
Which settings are you talking about? If you want consistent settings, why not just set them consistently?
ISO is a reference point to synchronise different cameras so that they produce consistent output for future processing.
I don't think that is true. I'm trying to work out precisely what you mean by it. Possibly some more detail as to what you mean would help.
Especially relevant in video production. If a camera manufacturer completely removes ISO setting, as you suggest above, how would a video or stills camera operator make sure their settings match other cameras?
As I said, which settings are you talking about, and how would they 'match' or not 'match'? And how does ISO help them match. In the case of exposure, all you need is to know that the exposure is the same, but that will give a different effect on different cameras according to sensor efficiency and size. Also, ISO defines the lightness for the exposure at only one reference point (18% grey), so different cameras my be set to the same ISO, and conform to the standard, but produce output that looks completely different in both tonal range and colour.
 
Auto ISO uses in-camera metering with a risk of blowing the highlights....
True of every mode except fully automatic. Not unique to ISO Auto.
Metering "errors" is the chief reason we use exposure compensation.
Sure, which I do use, but not in landscapes. The live histogram never fails, and in extreme cases UniWB works great too. Also the histogram shows whether the scene is too contrast for a single shot, so I need to exposure blend/HDR.
 
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Interesting point. To me, ISO control = dynamic range/image quality control.
That's not what the ISO control is intended to do, that's working with the side effects built into the ISO control, which vary from camera to camera.
Yes, definitely and unfortunately, it's camera-specific. I know it's a side effect of how ISO setting affects the reading and processing chain in camera, but it works.
There are lots of techniques that work due to exploitation of side effects. All of them require good knowledge of what those side effects are.
That's what I call 'ISO first' technique, and it has its problems. Essentially you are making a guess at the exposure you'll use in advance of metering it.
In many scenarios, acceptable shutter speed may vary from say 1/1000 to 1s, basically, 10 stops easily. There's a lot of room to adjust the exposure, and no need to even guess it.
You're still making a guess. In that case you want the slowest of that range of shutter speeds that, along with your choice of f-number and the scene illuminance, results in the largest exposure that your camera will accept. I think that for general landscape use 1s is pushing it. You lose leaf detail, unless the day is dead calm or the scene is barren.
Depending on the distance, the foliage can be shot at 1/15-1/30s easily. If windy, I'm exposure-constrained as above, so need to prioritise the exposure and raise ISO.
Still the principle there is that you'll be working at the lowest ISO you have, but you've still made a guess that the scene will allow that. The thing about the exposure-first method is that it always works, you don't need an exception for this kind of shot or that kind of shot. Of course, when you get experience with different types of shot you can adopt shortcuts, as you do with most techniques.
It doesn't guarantee I choose the longest possible shutter speed. ETTR becomes a bit painful with auto ISO (I tried). With auto metering, now I have to check both ISO and histogram to make sure ISO is as low as possible, which is ISO 100 most of the time. Also auto ISO doesn't guarantee consistent results for things like exposure blending, time blending etc.
The assumption that you make setting the lowest ISO for landscape shots is that none of your creative constraints will lead to a lower exposure than the nominal for the base ISO.
That's true. In some cases I need a specific shutter speed, e.g. around 0.5s for seascapes/waves/surf. But in such cases exposure gets to high and requires ND filters, as below.
Sure, in that specific case, you're always working with the limit that your camera will accept.
The using of base ISO and ND filters is exactly equivalent in exposure terms to stopping down.

ISO first works OK if you never leave base ISO, but if you do, generally has the effect of you ending up with a lower exposure than your creative constraints would allow, because you end up using the nominal exposure for the ISO that you guessed in the first place.
No, as above, in such cases I set the exposure first and then tweak ISO to get an ETTR-like histogram. So it's very close to Manual+Auto ISO, only I think I get more optimal ISO in the end. In such cases, t resulting ISO setting is also an indicator of prospective noise/IQ.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that you can't get 'more optimal' ISO if you set it yourself, just that the difference is small enough, and the convenience great enough to make auto ISO a practically better option.
Agree, but not for landscapes and scenarios I shoot. I don't want to rely on auto metering with seascapes, for example, specular highlights change positions all the time and auto metering is unreliableOtherwise, if I have to use auto ISO with EC, it's the same additional control as with manual ISO. The convenience vanishes as soon as I need to compensate the camera choice of ISO.
The general rule for optimising ISO after setting exposure is to set it as high as you can without clipping highlights. Auto ISO will do that, possibly requiring some EC to protect the highlights. Fine tuning involves stopping raising the ISO after the camera reaches the invariant point, which can be dealt with in many auto ISO implementations by setting an ISO limit, and making an alternate choice at the gain switch point if you have dual conversion gain. As I said before, I don't think that it's clear that you gain by moving to a higher ISO, and with auto ISO suitably set up, if that higher ISO doesn't clip the highlights it will be selected in any case.
In my Canon R5, ISO invariance starts at ISO 800, and dual gain at 400 - basically I use ISOs 100-800 for landscapes, but vast majority of daytime shots at ISO 100.
My preferred technique is what I call 'exposure first', where you set the f-number for the minimum DOF you want, and the shutter speed for the motion blur you want (or don't want). Then you set the ISO to match. If you go down to the lowest ISO and the exposure is too big, then you reduce it. That is a straightforward and mechanistic procedure. It is easily automated (with auto ISO currently) and always leads to the best IQ and DR that your creative constraints allow.
Auto ISO uses in-camera metering with a risk of blowing the highlights. Normally I don't want to blow any highlights in a landscape shot (not talking about the sun in the frame), so I use the histogram, which effectively serves as a manual metering mode - again very close to auto ISO, as you described, only replacing auto metering with manual by histogram.
Yes, as above, there are places where you can make a better choice than auto ISO, but if you want to protect the highlights you can use highlight metering (with auto ISO) or an appropriate amount of EC. Histograms are not a universal recipe for avoiding blowing highlights. For a start, if you're using a raw workflow a JPEG histogram will give false alarms, and also the resolution of the histogram can be quite coarse, and there can be highlights which don't represent a large enough proportion of pixels to show up on the histogram.
Having the ISO setting may also be important in production to have consistent settings across all cameras used in the field.
Which settings are you talking about? If you want consistent settings, why not just set them consistently?
ISO is a reference point to synchronise different cameras so that they produce consistent output for future processing.
I don't think that is true. I'm trying to work out precisely what you mean by it. Possibly some more detail as to what you mean would help.
Especially relevant in video production. If a camera manufacturer completely removes ISO setting, as you suggest above, how would a video or stills camera operator make sure their settings match other cameras?
As I said, which settings are you talking about, and how would they 'match' or not 'match'? And how does ISO help them match. In the case of exposure, all you need is to know that the exposure is the same, but that will give a different effect on different cameras according to sensor efficiency and size. Also, ISO defines the lightness for the exposure at only one reference point (18% grey), so different cameras my be set to the same ISO, and conform to the standard, but produce output that looks completely different in both tonal range and colour..
I have limited experience in that, but normally you'd want to have some consistent 'synchronised' settings if you shoot a scene from different angles, or if you do several takes etc. You might want to set one camera as a main camera and expose another one relative to the main camera meter. In other words, ISO works good as exposure index.
 
Still the principle there is that you'll be working at the lowest ISO you have, but you've still made a guess that the scene will allow that. The thing about the exposure-first method is that it always works, you don't need an exception for this kind of shot or that kind of shot. Of course, when you get experience with different types of shot you can adopt shortcuts, as you do with most techniques.
It doesn't guarantee I choose the longest possible shutter speed.
Since choosing the longest possible shutter speed is part of the method, I rather think that it does.
ETTR becomes a bit painful with auto ISO (I tried).
If you've already chosen the largest exposure that your pictorial constraints allow, then there is very little point to ETTR.
With auto metering, now I have to check both ISO and histogram to make sure ISO is as low as possible, which is ISO 100 most of the time. Also auto ISO doesn't guarantee consistent results for things like exposure blending, time blending etc.
You keep on talking about this, but you haven't said what are 'consistent results' or how or why fixing the ISO provides them. Certainly, using ETTR blows any notion of 'consistent results' out of the window.
As I said, which settings are you talking about, and how would they 'match' or not 'match'? And how does ISO help them match. In the case of exposure, all you need is to know that the exposure is the same, but that will give a different effect on different cameras according to sensor efficiency and size. Also, ISO defines the lightness for the exposure at only one reference point (18% grey), so different cameras my be set to the same ISO, and conform to the standard, but produce output that looks completely different in both tonal range and colour..
I have limited experience in that, but normally you'd want to have some consistent 'synchronised' settings if you shoot a scene from different angles, or if you do several takes etc. You might want to set one camera as a main camera and expose another one relative to the main camera meter. In other words, ISO works good as exposure index.
So, what you're saying, if I understand it, is that ISO is the only indicator cameras give as to what the exposure actually is. That's true, but that doesn't preclude cameras without ISO giving such an indicator.
 
Still the principle there is that you'll be working at the lowest ISO you have, but you've still made a guess that the scene will allow that. The thing about the exposure-first method is that it always works, you don't need an exception for this kind of shot or that kind of shot. Of course, when you get experience with different types of shot you can adopt shortcuts, as you do with most techniques.
It doesn't guarantee I choose the longest possible shutter speed.
Since choosing the longest possible shutter speed is part of the method, I rather think that it does.
The point is, most of the time I know aperture I want, but I don't care much about the shutter speed. So it's not a priority - I need whatever shutter speed that maximises the exposure at ISO 100.
ETTR becomes a bit painful with auto ISO (I tried).
If you've already chosen the largest exposure that your pictorial constraints allow, then there is very little point to ETTR.
With auto metering, now I have to check both ISO and histogram to make sure ISO is as low as possible, which is ISO 100 most of the time. Also auto ISO doesn't guarantee consistent results for things like exposure blending, time blending etc.
You keep on talking about this, but you haven't said what are 'consistent results' or how or why fixing the ISO provides them. Certainly, using ETTR blows any notion of 'consistent results' out of the window.
Fixed aperture, SS and ISO provide 'consistent results' for a given scene/light. In-camera metering may change ISO when it's not necessary. Any blending technique requires that consistency.
As I said, which settings are you talking about, and how would they 'match' or not 'match'? And how does ISO help them match. In the case of exposure, all you need is to know that the exposure is the same, but that will give a different effect on different cameras according to sensor efficiency and size. Also, ISO defines the lightness for the exposure at only one reference point (18% grey), so different cameras my be set to the same ISO, and conform to the standard, but produce output that looks completely different in both tonal range and colour..
I have limited experience in that, but normally you'd want to have some consistent 'synchronised' settings if you shoot a scene from different angles, or if you do several takes etc. You might want to set one camera as a main camera and expose another one relative to the main camera meter. In other words, ISO works good as exposure index.
So, what you're saying, if I understand it, is that ISO is the only indicator cameras give as to what the exposure actually is. That's true, but that doesn't preclude cameras without ISO giving such an indicator.
That indicator will need to match ISO, or such a camera won't work well together will older cameras.

But I'm not an expert - I guess camera manufacturers get feedback from pro video crews etc. so it'll be hard to change anything because of ISO legacy and conservatism.
 
Still the principle there is that you'll be working at the lowest ISO you have, but you've still made a guess that the scene will allow that. The thing about the exposure-first method is that it always works, you don't need an exception for this kind of shot or that kind of shot. Of course, when you get experience with different types of shot you can adopt shortcuts, as you do with most techniques.
It doesn't guarantee I choose the longest possible shutter speed.
Since choosing the longest possible shutter speed is part of the method, I rather think that it does.
The point is, most of the time I know aperture I want, but I don't care much about the shutter speed. So it's not a priority - I need whatever shutter speed that maximises the exposure at ISO 100.
You are in a situation where you are not light limited. You can easily achieve the maximum exposure your camera can handle. In your case, you can use an arbitrarily long shutter speed to capture as much light as you like.

In that situation, it makes sense to use aperture priority and fix the ISO at the minimum setting.

However, not everyone is in your position. Many situations result in an exposure less than the maximum the camera can handle. Many situations involve lighting that can vary from frame to frame. In those situations Auto-ISO can be quite useful.

ETTR becomes a bit painful with auto ISO (I tried).
If you've already chosen the largest exposure that your pictorial constraints allow, then there is very little point to ETTR.
With auto metering, now I have to check both ISO and histogram to make sure ISO is as low as possible, which is ISO 100 most of the time. Also auto ISO doesn't guarantee consistent results for things like exposure blending, time blending etc.
You keep on talking about this, but you haven't said what are 'consistent results' or how or why fixing the ISO provides them. Certainly, using ETTR blows any notion of 'consistent results' out of the window.
Fixed aperture, SS and ISO provide 'consistent results' for a given scene/light. In-camera metering may change ISO when it's not necessary. Any blending technique requires that consistency.
Anytime you allow the camera to vary one or more settings, you should get consistent results. If the camera's metering system isn't perfect, then the results might vary. However, as long as you stay in situations where the camera'a meter does a good job, you will get consistent results.

As I said, which settings are you talking about, and how would they 'match' or not 'match'? And how does ISO help them match. In the case of exposure, all you need is to know that the exposure is the same, but that will give a different effect on different cameras according to sensor efficiency and size. Also, ISO defines the lightness for the exposure at only one reference point (18% grey), so different cameras my be set to the same ISO, and conform to the standard, but produce output that looks completely different in both tonal range and colour..
I have limited experience in that, but normally you'd want to have some consistent 'synchronised' settings if you shoot a scene from different angles, or if you do several takes etc. You might want to set one camera as a main camera and expose another one relative to the main camera meter. In other words, ISO works good as exposure index.
So, what you're saying, if I understand it, is that ISO is the only indicator cameras give as to what the exposure actually is. That's true, but that doesn't preclude cameras without ISO giving such an indicator.
That indicator will need to match ISO, or such a camera won't work well together will older cameras.
As long as the metering system in both cameras yield similar results, neither camera needs to provide an ISO or exposure readout.

In fact, if the camera's have different sized sensors, you would likely see different levels of noise as the same ISO/exposure. Of course, with different sized sensors, we also get different angles of view at the same focal length, and different DoF at the same f/stop.

We accept that the 50mm on one size sensor yields different results than 50mm on another size sensor, but some have an issue with ISO 400 on one size sensor yielding different results than ISO 400 on another size sensor.
But I'm not an expert - I guess camera manufacturers get feedback from pro video crews etc. so it'll be hard to change anything because of ISO legacy and conservatism.
 
Still the principle there is that you'll be working at the lowest ISO you have, but you've still made a guess that the scene will allow that. The thing about the exposure-first method is that it always works, you don't need an exception for this kind of shot or that kind of shot. Of course, when you get experience with different types of shot you can adopt shortcuts, as you do with most techniques.
It doesn't guarantee I choose the longest possible shutter speed.
Since choosing the longest possible shutter speed is part of the method, I rather think that it does.
The point is, most of the time I know aperture I want, but I don't care much about the shutter speed. So it's not a priority - I need whatever shutter speed that maximises the exposure at ISO 100.
That's a different point. The method does guarantee the longest possible exposure time, but you're saying that often you're not concerned, because the camera will saturate first.

If you applied the method, you's still end up with the longest possible exposure time at the lowest ISO, it's just that in your case you have the experience to make a quite reliable guess that the limit will be camera saturation, not shutter speed. That's one of the constraints.
ETTR becomes a bit painful with auto ISO (I tried).
If you've already chosen the largest exposure that your pictorial constraints allow, then there is very little point to ETTR.
With auto metering, now I have to check both ISO and histogram to make sure ISO is as low as possible, which is ISO 100 most of the time. Also auto ISO doesn't guarantee consistent results for things like exposure blending, time blending etc.
You keep on talking about this, but you haven't said what are 'consistent results' or how or why fixing the ISO provides them. Certainly, using ETTR blows any notion of 'consistent results' out of the window.
Fixed aperture, SS and ISO provide 'consistent results' for a given scene/light.
No they don't, not between two cameras. As I said, two cameras might have very different rendering, and thus 'results' for the same f-number, exposure time and ISO. ISO does not control the tone curve, only one point on it, and manufacturers choose very different tone curves. That's if the ISO is SOS. If it's REI all bets of any consistency are off.
In-camera metering may change ISO when it's not necessary. Any blending technique requires that consistency.
It's hard to see how it would change ISO when it's 'not necessary'. Could you explain how that would come about, specifically in the context of OOC JPEGs, which I presume we're talking about.
As I said, which settings are you talking about, and how would they 'match' or not 'match'? And how does ISO help them match. In the case of exposure, all you need is to know that the exposure is the same, but that will give a different effect on different cameras according to sensor efficiency and size. Also, ISO defines the lightness for the exposure at only one reference point (18% grey), so different cameras my be set to the same ISO, and conform to the standard, but produce output that looks completely different in both tonal range and colour..
I have limited experience in that, but normally you'd want to have some consistent 'synchronised' settings if you shoot a scene from different angles, or if you do several takes etc. You might want to set one camera as a main camera and expose another one relative to the main camera meter. In other words, ISO works good as exposure index.
So, what you're saying, if I understand it, is that ISO is the only indicator cameras give as to what the exposure actually is. That's true, but that doesn't preclude cameras without ISO giving such an indicator.
That indicator will need to match ISO, or such a camera won't work well together will older cameras.
Actually, my bad, I lost track of which conversation I was in. We aren't talking about cameras without ISO, not when you could or couldn't use auto ISO. When you're using auto ISO, the ISO readout gives you feedback on the exposure you have. Since people are used to ISO exposure units (inverse lux seconds times ten), I can't see much problem with sticking with them as a unit of exposure, though the inverse nature is a bit non-intuitive.
But I'm not an expert - I guess camera manufacturers get feedback from pro video crews etc. so it'll be hard to change anything because of ISO legacy and conservatism.
I don't think that video crews are strongly wedded to ISO, it was not a thing used in video work. Film crews would be a different matter, they were used to exposing according to ISO.
 
Still the principle there is that you'll be working at the lowest ISO you have, but you've still made a guess that the scene will allow that. The thing about the exposure-first method is that it always works, you don't need an exception for this kind of shot or that kind of shot. Of course, when you get experience with different types of shot you can adopt shortcuts, as you do with most techniques.
It doesn't guarantee I choose the longest possible shutter speed.
Since choosing the longest possible shutter speed is part of the method, I rather think that it does.
The point is, most of the time I know aperture I want, but I don't care much about the shutter speed. So it's not a priority - I need whatever shutter speed that maximises the exposure at ISO 100.
That's a different point. The method does guarantee the longest possible exposure time, but you're saying that often you're not concerned, because the camera will saturate first.
Yes, basically in the majority of cases (especially when shooting with a tripod) the max possible exposure and shutter speed are way above the saturation point.

If it's well below the saturation point, I still want to be in control and raise ISO myself - otherwise it's pretty close to Manual+ auto ISO.
If you applied the method, you's still end up with the longest possible exposure time at the lowest ISO, it's just that in your case you have the experience to make a quite reliable guess that the limit will be camera saturation, not shutter speed. That's one of the constraints.
I feel the limit by observing the histogram at ISO 100 :)
ETTR becomes a bit painful with auto ISO (I tried).
If you've already chosen the largest exposure that your pictorial constraints allow, then there is very little point to ETTR.
With auto metering, now I have to check both ISO and histogram to make sure ISO is as low as possible, which is ISO 100 most of the time. Also auto ISO doesn't guarantee consistent results for things like exposure blending, time blending etc.
You keep on talking about this, but you haven't said what are 'consistent results' or how or why fixing the ISO provides them. Certainly, using ETTR blows any notion of 'consistent results' out of the window.
Fixed aperture, SS and ISO provide 'consistent results' for a given scene/light.
No they don't, not between two cameras.
We were probably talking about different things - I meant consistency as in the initial (embedded) jpegs in a series of shots from the same spot. While I don't use jpegs directly, their consistency is important for HDR merge, exposure blending, time blending etc. It's utterly important when shooting 4ex seascapes.
As I said, two cameras might have very different rendering, and thus 'results' for the same f-number, exposure time and ISO. ISO does not control the tone curve, only one point on it, and manufacturers choose very different tone curves. That's if the ISO is SOS. If it's REI all bets of any consistency are off.
In-camera metering may change ISO when it's not necessary. Any blending technique requires that consistency.
It's hard to see how it would change ISO when it's 'not necessary'. Could you explain how that would come about, specifically in the context of OOC JPEGs, which I presume we're talking about.
Say evaluative/matrix metering can blow highlights out very easily. The exposure (or ISO) may change because of minor cloud movement in the sky or in the foreground (especially if you have water in the foreground) when there's no clipping. In other words, when doing ETTR I'm concerned about clipping, but standard auto exposure modes will change ISO when the midtones change but there's no danger to the highlights (and it may blow the highlights).

Again the above only applies to slow pace genres like landscape photography.
As I said, which settings are you talking about, and how would they 'match' or not 'match'? And how does ISO help them match. In the case of exposure, all you need is to know that the exposure is the same, but that will give a different effect on different cameras according to sensor efficiency and size. Also, ISO defines the lightness for the exposure at only one reference point (18% grey), so different cameras my be set to the same ISO, and conform to the standard, but produce output that looks completely different in both tonal range and colour..
I have limited experience in that, but normally you'd want to have some consistent 'synchronised' settings if you shoot a scene from different angles, or if you do several takes etc. You might want to set one camera as a main camera and expose another one relative to the main camera meter. In other words, ISO works good as exposure index.
So, what you're saying, if I understand it, is that ISO is the only indicator cameras give as to what the exposure actually is. That's true, but that doesn't preclude cameras without ISO giving such an indicator.
That indicator will need to match ISO, or such a camera won't work well together will older cameras.
Actually, my bad, I lost track of which conversation I was in. We aren't talking about cameras without ISO, not when you could or couldn't use auto ISO. When you're using auto ISO, the ISO readout gives you feedback on the exposure you have. Since people are used to ISO exposure units (inverse lux seconds times ten), I can't see much problem with sticking with them as a unit of exposure, though the inverse nature is a bit non-intuitive.
But I'm not an expert - I guess camera manufacturers get feedback from pro video crews etc. so it'll be hard to change anything because of ISO legacy and conservatism.
I don't think that video crews are strongly wedded to ISO, it was not a thing used in video work. Film crews would be a different matter, they were used to exposing according to ISO.
 
Still the principle there is that you'll be working at the lowest ISO you have, but you've still made a guess that the scene will allow that. The thing about the exposure-first method is that it always works, you don't need an exception for this kind of shot or that kind of shot. Of course, when you get experience with different types of shot you can adopt shortcuts, as you do with most techniques.
It doesn't guarantee I choose the longest possible shutter speed.
Since choosing the longest possible shutter speed is part of the method, I rather think that it does.
The point is, most of the time I know aperture I want, but I don't care much about the shutter speed. So it's not a priority - I need whatever shutter speed that maximises the exposure at ISO 100.
You are in a situation where you are not light limited. You can easily achieve the maximum exposure your camera can handle. In your case, you can use an arbitrarily long shutter speed to capture as much light as you like.

In that situation, it makes sense to use aperture priority and fix the ISO at the minimum setting.
I use full manual with ISO 100 and ETTR which provides better results. I sometimes use Av when shooting handheld and/or ETTR is too slow.

Again the above only applies to landscapes and similar genres. I wouldn't recommend anyone to use ETTR via histogram and full manual for BIF and alike.
However, not everyone is in your position. Many situations result in an exposure less than the maximum the camera can handle. Many situations involve lighting that can vary from frame to frame. In those situations Auto-ISO can be quite useful.
Definitely.
ETTR becomes a bit painful with auto ISO (I tried).
If you've already chosen the largest exposure that your pictorial constraints allow, then there is very little point to ETTR.
With auto metering, now I have to check both ISO and histogram to make sure ISO is as low as possible, which is ISO 100 most of the time. Also auto ISO doesn't guarantee consistent results for things like exposure blending, time blending etc.
You keep on talking about this, but you haven't said what are 'consistent results' or how or why fixing the ISO provides them. Certainly, using ETTR blows any notion of 'consistent results' out of the window.
Fixed aperture, SS and ISO provide 'consistent results' for a given scene/light. In-camera metering may change ISO when it's not necessary. Any blending technique requires that consistency.
Anytime you allow the camera to vary one or more settings, you should get consistent results.
Let's take a simple example - would you shoot a panorama when camera can vary more than zero settings? The images for stitching will most likely be inconsistent - you'd have to bring them on synch first which would be very painful in post.
If the camera's metering system isn't perfect, then the results might vary. However, as long as you stay in situations where the camera'a meter does a good job, you will get consistent results.
As I said, which settings are you talking about, and how would they 'match' or not 'match'? And how does ISO help them match. In the case of exposure, all you need is to know that the exposure is the same, but that will give a different effect on different cameras according to sensor efficiency and size. Also, ISO defines the lightness for the exposure at only one reference point (18% grey), so different cameras my be set to the same ISO, and conform to the standard, but produce output that looks completely different in both tonal range and colour..
I have limited experience in that, but normally you'd want to have some consistent 'synchronised' settings if you shoot a scene from different angles, or if you do several takes etc. You might want to set one camera as a main camera and expose another one relative to the main camera meter. In other words, ISO works good as exposure index.
So, what you're saying, if I understand it, is that ISO is the only indicator cameras give as to what the exposure actually is. That's true, but that doesn't preclude cameras without ISO giving such an indicator.
That indicator will need to match ISO, or such a camera won't work well together will older cameras.
As long as the metering system in both cameras yield similar results, neither camera needs to provide an ISO or exposure readout.
You may need to set a secondary camera relative to primary camera as they're positioned at different angles.
In fact, if the camera's have different sized sensors, you would likely see different levels of noise as the same ISO/exposure. Of course, with different sized sensors, we also get different angles of view at the same focal length, and different DoF at the same f/stop.

We accept that the 50mm on one size sensor yields different results than 50mm on another size sensor, but some have an issue with ISO 400 on one size sensor yielding different results than ISO 400 on another size sensor.
But I'm not an expert - I guess camera manufacturers get feedback from pro video crews etc. so it'll be hard to change anything because of ISO legacy and conservatism.
 
Well, imagine presenting this, or any of the many other threads on the subject to a beginner of photography ;) , I'd be having a minor brain meltdown :D

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Knew very little about photography when I decided to buy the awesome Nikon D70; learned quickly that this expensive camera didn't make me a good photographer.
Http://kristerp.wordpress.com
 
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Why does it seem that we have to make things so deep and intricate as opposed to simple and easy? For 100+ years of film photography about all we had to know was simple and straight forward. To take a properly exposed photo we only needed to know the level of illumination at the subject and the exposure triangle. In earliest of time the level of illumination took some practice and guesswork, but along came light meters that took most of the guesswork out. Then we used the exposure triangle and usually started with iso as that was the thing we could not change without loading new film, and set the corresponding shutter speed and aperture that matched the film sensitivity based on the illumination of subject. We only needed to decide if we preferred higher shutter speed to stop action or smaller lens opening to increase dof. At that point, it was focus, and press the shutter release at the appropriate moment.

Along came digital and the manufacturers came up with a method to simulate the film sensitivity by some method which I don't need to understand or know how it is done - just that they have done a fantastic job of implementing it. This also let me change this setting on a per picture basis if I want and use settings finer than full stop intervals. They called this setting iso and gave it number designations that matched those familiar to film that had been in use for a hundred years or so. So bingo!! now all I have to do is what I have been doing for years, evaluate the light level of the scene (which my camera can do) choose iso, set aperture and shutter speed based on the same exposure triangle that basically says if I change one of these three settings and want to maintain the same exposure, I must change at least one other of these settings accordingly. Or if I want, I can let the camera do it all or just set the ones I let it set, because it knows that the three settings need to coordinate. I see no reason whatsoever that me getting a degree in electronics so I could understand exactly how the camera mimics film sensitivity would help my photos look better. If we had to be able to understand precisely how everything we use works in this day and age, I wouldn't use very many modern tools and gadgets. TV's, computers, automobiles, smartphones, all come to mind. I used to be able to take any automobile completely apart and get it back together, but don't have the slightest idea how my current automobiles do some of the magical things they do, but can and do still operate them successfully without knowing how they do it.
It's sometimes interesting to correlate someone's posts. In this post we discover that you don't know what exposure is. That's the very basics of photography.

Above, you tell us that in film photography, all we needed to know was simple and straightforward, we only needed to know the level of illumination at the subject and the 'exposure triangle'. Yet the 'exposure triangle' was only invented in the 2000's, as a variation of Peterson's 'photographic triangle', which dates from the 1990's. So there was absolutely no way that film photographers for '100+ years' were using the exposure triangle.

These detailed discussions are certainly not necessary for most photographers. They are useful for people that want to optimise their practice. (Why, oh why did Ansell Adams make film photography so complicated that it needed three books to explain?). Threads here go in to what some consider to be 'too much detail' because the detail becomes necessary just to show why purveyors of false information are misinformed. It's often the case that those people then cry 'too much information'. But what are people to do? Just let the degradation of photographic information go unchallenged, or actually say when someone posts stuff that is just clearly wrong? It's a dilemma that seems to be common in the age of the internet. There is so much misinformation going around, ind sifting it out is something that needs doing.
 

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