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A1 - Real world problems?

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Geir Ove

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Hello,

So we have finally entered the "whining" phase of the A1: After the first woreship phase, we enter the critical phase: Just like we experienced 2 years back when the D7 was released.

Noise is the issue that pops up time and time again. Yet, in the real world, it is not that much of a problem! What is the "real" world?

For most of us it is:

Using ISO 100 and shutter times of 1/10 sec or faster in 95% of the cases and:

a) viewing the picture on computer screen with half (or less) the resolution of the camera.
  • If you scale the picture to fit the screen, there's no noise.!
OR

b) Print the picture at A4 (letter) size or less.
  • Again: No noise is visible
Both my father and I have a D7 and then bought the A1. Noise levels on the A1 are actually slightly less than the D7 in the normal cases listed above.

My father is a member of a photo club where he has the only digital camera. They have monthly competitions where prints are the medium. He has won 1. (first) price time and time again competing with prints from FILM cameras up to A4 size!

So maybe we should start MAKING THE BEST of our cameras instead of thinking up weird tests to see how bad we can make it perform?

And for the long exposure cases where the noise is visible, PhotoShop or Neat Image makes wonders! Most of my night shots are 1-4 second shots and show very little noise. Look at my gallery.

Just a thought.

And by the way: I would also want less noise on high ISO values, who wouldn't?

My A1 gallery at: http://www.objective.no/geirove/web

Geir Ove
 
may be found in this thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=6226826

Geir Ove
Geir Ove said:
Hello,

So we have finally entered the "whining" phase of the A1: After the
first woreship phase, we enter the critical phase: Just like we
experienced 2 years back when the D7 was released.

Noise is the issue that pops up time and time again. Yet, in the
real world, it is not that much of a problem! What is the "real"
world?

For most of us it is:

Using ISO 100 and shutter times of 1/10 sec or faster in 95% of the
cases and:

a) viewing the picture on computer screen with half (or less) the
resolution of the camera.
  • If you scale the picture to fit the screen, there's no noise.!
OR

b) Print the picture at A4 (letter) size or less.
  • Again: No noise is visible
Both my father and I have a D7 and then bought the A1. Noise levels
on the A1 are actually slightly less than the D7 in the normal
cases listed above.

My father is a member of a photo club where he has the only digital
camera. They have monthly competitions where prints are the medium.
He has won 1. (first) price time and time again competing with
prints from FILM cameras up to A4 size!

So maybe we should start MAKING THE BEST of our cameras instead of
thinking up weird tests to see how bad we can make it perform?

And for the long exposure cases where the noise is visible,
PhotoShop or Neat Image makes wonders! Most of my night shots are
1-4 second shots and show very little noise. Look at my gallery.

Just a thought.

And by the way: I would also want less noise on high ISO values,
who wouldn't?

My A1 gallery at: http://www.objective.no/geirove/web

Geir Ove
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Geir

I too find this camera takes wonderful pics and see the noise problem as completely overblown. I do 19x22" color prints and they look terrific. Your point about people devising the "weird" tests was right on target. Greats lens, great ergonomics, I just wish Minolta wouldn't have screwed me on the price drop, which may be at the root of some of these complaints.

Mike
 
Geir Ove said:
Hello,

So we have finally entered the "whining" phase of the A1: After the
first woreship phase, we enter the critical phase: Just like we
experienced 2 years back when the D7 was released.

Noise is the issue that pops up time and time again. Yet, in the
real world, it is not that much of a problem! What is the "real"
world?

For most of us it is:

Using ISO 100 and shutter times of 1/10 sec or faster in 95% of the
cases and:

a) viewing the picture on computer screen with half (or less) the
resolution of the camera.
  • If you scale the picture to fit the screen, there's no noise.!
OR

b) Print the picture at A4 (letter) size or less.
  • Again: No noise is visible
Both my father and I have a D7 and then bought the A1. Noise levels
on the A1 are actually slightly less than the D7 in the normal
cases listed above.

My father is a member of a photo club where he has the only digital
camera. They have monthly competitions where prints are the medium.
He has won 1. (first) price time and time again competing with
prints from FILM cameras up to A4 size!

So maybe we should start MAKING THE BEST of our cameras instead of
thinking up weird tests to see how bad we can make it perform?

And for the long exposure cases where the noise is visible,
PhotoShop or Neat Image makes wonders! Most of my night shots are
1-4 second shots and show very little noise. Look at my gallery.

Just a thought.

And by the way: I would also want less noise on high ISO values,
who wouldn't?

My A1 gallery at: http://www.objective.no/geirove/web

Geir Ove
Click to expand...
Hello Geir,

I agree 100%. I guess the best approach to the naysayers and corporate trolls is for those who are happy with their A1 to post lots of wonderful images. As they say, "A picture is worth a thousand words". ;-)

Enjoy your new camera --- I hope to be joining you soon as an A1 owner.

cheers,
Rick Stirling
http://www.rickster.net/gallery/albums.php
 
Hi Geir,

First: I agree completely with your assessment about how people are trying to evaluate their images.

Second: In looking at your photos on your web site, i was struck that each of the pictiures containing the moon, had the moon totally overexposed. Just a quick hint of which you may already be aware but only as a reminder, It's always a bright sunny day on the moon! Go manual and expose the moon for a bright sunny day, rule of thumb from film: exposure for a bright sunny day f16 at 1/ISO speed of your film. Realizing we can't get to f16 on most of our 'prosumers' just adjust for an equivalent exposure. If that doesn't give you the reflections you want, shoot both and do a little PS manipulation to combine the images.

Good luck, your photos are beautiful otherwise, just thought you might want to try this little trick. I particularly liked your night shot of Oslo, I managed a single night there back in the eighties and it was so foggy, we couldn't see houses on the side of the road. Didn't see much but the hotel but the food was great! Wish I could have stayed longer.

Bill E in WV, USA
Geir Ove said:
Hello,

So we have finally entered the "whining" phase of the A1: After the
first woreship phase, we enter the critical phase: Just like we
experienced 2 years back when the D7 was released.

Noise is the issue that pops up time and time again. Yet, in the
real world, it is not that much of a problem! What is the "real"
world?

For most of us it is:

Using ISO 100 and shutter times of 1/10 sec or faster in 95% of the
cases and:

a) viewing the picture on computer screen with half (or less) the
resolution of the camera.
  • If you scale the picture to fit the screen, there's no noise.!
OR

b) Print the picture at A4 (letter) size or less.
  • Again: No noise is visible
Both my father and I have a D7 and then bought the A1. Noise levels
on the A1 are actually slightly less than the D7 in the normal
cases listed above.

My father is a member of a photo club where he has the only digital
camera. They have monthly competitions where prints are the medium.
He has won 1. (first) price time and time again competing with
prints from FILM cameras up to A4 size!

So maybe we should start MAKING THE BEST of our cameras instead of
Click to expand...
Geir Ove said:
thinking up weird tests to see how bad we can make it perform?

And for the long exposure cases where the noise is visible,
PhotoShop or Neat Image makes wonders! Most of my night shots are
1-4 second shots and show very little noise. Look at my gallery.

Just a thought.

And by the way: I would also want less noise on high ISO values,
who wouldn't?

My A1 gallery at: http://www.objective.no/geirove/web

Geir Ove
Click to expand...
 
Geir Ove said:
So maybe we should start MAKING THE BEST of our cameras instead of
thinking up weird tests to see how bad we can make it perform?
Click to expand...
Trying to select my next digital camera, I would download some samples and zoom until something looks wrong:
  • if the first thing I notice is pixels getting more and more visible then all is OK
  • if the image get fuzzy before the pixels are visible I would suspect the lens (and many other possible issues)
  • if the noise is visible before image looks fuzzy and before pixels are visible I would be anxious about noise...
In the last case your advice is useful : let I print the image at the size(s) I'm accustomed to use and let I be prepared to ignore comments from viewers which are more interested in finding some technical failure than to look at the picture (I actually did that to select mine), but ...

The first time I was really annoyed by noise was when I prepared an A3 photo for a sculptures exhibition poster (something I could not anticipate when I brought a 3MP camera some years ago). Now I know that for this camera (not a Minolta) the noise is the limiting factor for me and not the 3MP or the lens.

Some number combining absolute resolution and noise levels from a camera at a given ISO would be helpful. As far as I understand, the luminance noise graph and RGB noise graph published in Phil's reviews are useful to compare cameras in the same mega-pixels range but say nothing when the "size of the noise" varies.
Georges Lagarde
 
Hello,

Thatnks for the tip: I have seent that the moon gets overexposed and have thought about workarounds without getting to it. I will try your tip one of these days.

Geir Ove
BEvans said:
First: I agree completely with your assessment about how people are
trying to evaluate their images.

Second: In looking at your photos on your web site, i was struck
that each of the pictiures containing the moon, had the moon
totally overexposed. Just a quick hint of which you may already be
aware but only as a reminder, It's always a bright sunny day on the
moon! Go manual and expose the moon for a bright sunny day, rule of
thumb from film: exposure for a bright sunny day f16 at 1/ISO speed
of your film. Realizing we can't get to f16 on most of our
'prosumers' just adjust for an equivalent exposure. If that doesn't
give you the reflections you want, shoot both and do a little PS
manipulation to combine the images.

Good luck, your photos are beautiful otherwise, just thought you
might want to try this little trick. I particularly liked your
night shot of Oslo, I managed a single night there back in the
eighties and it was so foggy, we couldn't see houses on the side of
the road. Didn't see much but the hotel but the food was great!
Wish I could have stayed longer.

Bill E in WV, USA
Geir Ove said:
Hello,

So we have finally entered the "whining" phase of the A1: After the
first woreship phase, we enter the critical phase: Just like we
experienced 2 years back when the D7 was released.

Noise is the issue that pops up time and time again. Yet, in the
real world, it is not that much of a problem! What is the "real"
world?

For most of us it is:

Using ISO 100 and shutter times of 1/10 sec or faster in 95% of the
cases and:

a) viewing the picture on computer screen with half (or less) the
resolution of the camera.
  • If you scale the picture to fit the screen, there's no noise.!
OR

b) Print the picture at A4 (letter) size or less.
  • Again: No noise is visible
Both my father and I have a D7 and then bought the A1. Noise levels
on the A1 are actually slightly less than the D7 in the normal
cases listed above.

My father is a member of a photo club where he has the only digital
camera. They have monthly competitions where prints are the medium.
He has won 1. (first) price time and time again competing with
prints from FILM cameras up to A4 size!

So maybe we should start MAKING THE BEST of our cameras instead of
Click to expand...
BEvans said:
thinking up weird tests to see how bad we can make it perform?

And for the long exposure cases where the noise is visible,
PhotoShop or Neat Image makes wonders! Most of my night shots are
1-4 second shots and show very little noise. Look at my gallery.

Just a thought.

And by the way: I would also want less noise on high ISO values,
who wouldn't?

My A1 gallery at: http://www.objective.no/geirove/web

Geir Ove
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Moon scenic shots are also a good time to use a graduated ND filter, to properly expose the moon, and still get some detail in the foreground. Still it's best to shoot moon shots when the moonrise or set isn't too far before/after sunrise/set, to get the luminence of the ground and of the moon not so dissimilar, vs. shooting in the dark of night. Helps to plan shoots on those few days per year when this occurs.
-David
Geir Ove said:
Thatnks for the tip: I have seent that the moon gets overexposed
and have thought about workarounds without getting to it. I will
try your tip one of these days.

Geir Ove
BEvans said:
First: I agree completely with your assessment about how people are
trying to evaluate their images.

Second: In looking at your photos on your web site, i was struck
that each of the pictiures containing the moon, had the moon
totally overexposed. Just a quick hint of which you may already be
aware but only as a reminder, It's always a bright sunny day on the
moon! Go manual and expose the moon for a bright sunny day, rule of
thumb from film: exposure for a bright sunny day f16 at 1/ISO speed
of your film. Realizing we can't get to f16 on most of our
'prosumers' just adjust for an equivalent exposure. If that doesn't
give you the reflections you want, shoot both and do a little PS
manipulation to combine the images.

Good luck, your photos are beautiful otherwise, just thought you
might want to try this little trick. I particularly liked your
night shot of Oslo, I managed a single night there back in the
eighties and it was so foggy, we couldn't see houses on the side of
the road. Didn't see much but the hotel but the food was great!
Wish I could have stayed longer.

Bill E in WV, USA
Geir Ove said:
Hello,

So we have finally entered the "whining" phase of the A1: After the
first woreship phase, we enter the critical phase: Just like we
experienced 2 years back when the D7 was released.

Noise is the issue that pops up time and time again. Yet, in the
real world, it is not that much of a problem! What is the "real"
world?

For most of us it is:

Using ISO 100 and shutter times of 1/10 sec or faster in 95% of the
cases and:

a) viewing the picture on computer screen with half (or less) the
resolution of the camera.
  • If you scale the picture to fit the screen, there's no noise.!
OR

b) Print the picture at A4 (letter) size or less.
  • Again: No noise is visible
Both my father and I have a D7 and then bought the A1. Noise levels
on the A1 are actually slightly less than the D7 in the normal
cases listed above.

My father is a member of a photo club where he has the only digital
camera. They have monthly competitions where prints are the medium.
He has won 1. (first) price time and time again competing with
prints from FILM cameras up to A4 size!

So maybe we should start MAKING THE BEST of our cameras instead of
Click to expand...
Geir Ove said:
thinking up weird tests to see how bad we can make it perform?

And for the long exposure cases where the noise is visible,
PhotoShop or Neat Image makes wonders! Most of my night shots are
1-4 second shots and show very little noise. Look at my gallery.

Just a thought.

And by the way: I would also want less noise on high ISO values,
who wouldn't?

My A1 gallery at: http://www.objective.no/geirove/web

Geir Ove
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
David



http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/home?userid= {F351C88E-FEF7-4892-9F30-9FD2DDD1593C}&tio=0tio=0&st=he&GUID={0AB0EAE9-1AF7-41AE-966B-588570432D96}&sent=stored
 
I've been reading all the yes/no dispute about A1 noise, wanting to find evidence that the camera will really do what I want it to do. And I come across this statement by you -- whom I recognize as a strong advocate of the A1 -- which would really nail it that this is NOT the camera I want.

I regularly print photos at A3 size from my present camera (a Fuji S602, of all things! granted, with significant PP) and get good results in club competitions. If I can't do that with this $800 (U.S. price), 5mp camera, then it's not for me, that's for sure.

Thanks for the warning light.
Geir Ove said:
b) Print the picture at A4 (letter) size or less.
  • Again: No noise is visible
Click to expand...
 
You may be incorrect here. I am on my third A1 and each one has performed differently.

First A1: Lower noise than my D7Hi (indoor photos) but suffered from dead pixels.

Second A1: Excessive noise especially with for indoor and long exposures.

Present A1: Lower noise than previous A1 but suffering from vertical noise banding in the shadows on indoor shots.

I'm not going to bother changing the camera again but I will contact Minolta tech support and see what they have to say. Apart from the above all other features work fine.

Previously, Minolta have denied there is a quality control problem.

Emmanuel
tejasmike said:
Thanks Geir

I too find this camera takes wonderful pics and see the noise
problem as completely overblown. I do 19x22" color prints and they
look terrific. Your point about people devising the "weird" tests
was right on target. Greats lens, great ergonomics, I just wish
Minolta wouldn't have screwed me on the price drop, which may be at
the root of some of these complaints.

Mike
Click to expand...
--
Visit me at:-
http://www.realworldimages.co.uk
 
morepix said:
I regularly print photos at A3 size from my present camera (a Fuji
S602, of all things! granted, with significant PP) and get good
results in club competitions. If I can't do that with this $800
(U.S. price), 5mp camera, then it's not for me, that's for sure.

Thanks for the warning light.
Geir Ove said:
b) Print the picture at A4 (letter) size or less.
  • Again: No noise is visible
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--If you want samples - of almost any camera's capabilities -, you can find them on this web site. Here is the Minolta A1 gallery, showing many samples of A1 pictures. The advantage here is that the samples are all taken by the same person, Phil Askey, the camera reviewer of this site.

http://www.dpreview.com/gallery/minoltadimagea1_samples1/

Jim Rickards
 
Screwed up logic, but by all means DON'T BUY the A1 !

Geir Ove
morepix said:
I regularly print photos at A3 size from my present camera (a Fuji
S602, of all things! granted, with significant PP) and get good
results in club competitions. If I can't do that with this $800
(U.S. price), 5mp camera, then it's not for me, that's for sure.

Thanks for the warning light.
Geir Ove said:
b) Print the picture at A4 (letter) size or less.
  • Again: No noise is visible
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Hello,

Samples here:

http://www.objective.no/geirove/PICT0087.JPG
http://www.objective.no/geirove/PICT0296.JPG
http://www.objective.no/geirove/PICT0201.JPG
http://www.objective.no/geirove/PICT0368.JPG

These pictures are out of the camera not modified. Please study and print!

Where's all this terrible noise????

Yes, even I, the A1 owner can see some noise, but it is NOT bad! l NOT visible in prints and NOT visible when the picture is scaled to your monitor.

Pictures are taken from my A1 gallery here: http://www.objective.no/geirove/web

Geir Ove
 
Hey Geir,

If enough people get ranting about the A1 maybe the price will drop another $200-$300 by the time I'm ready to buy it! LOL

Gotta go check those Ebay listings .... ;-)

cheers,
Rick Stirling
Geir Ove said:
Geir Ove
morepix said:
I regularly print photos at A3 size from my present camera (a Fuji
S602, of all things! granted, with significant PP) and get good
results in club competitions. If I can't do that with this $800
(U.S. price), 5mp camera, then it's not for me, that's for sure.

Thanks for the warning light.
Geir Ove said:
b) Print the picture at A4 (letter) size or less.
  • Again: No noise is visible
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--

cheers,
Rick Stirling
http://www.rickster.net/gallery/albums.php
 
Hi Geir Ove,

What you must understand is that there are A1s out there with a worse performance. I have no idea what percentage of A1s are underperforming but not all A1s are equal. Just based on my own experience and now being on my 3rd A1, all three differed in performance. The second one I had gave horrendous noise.

Emmanuel
Geir Ove said:
Hello,

Samples here:

http://www.objective.no/geirove/PICT0087.JPG
http://www.objective.no/geirove/PICT0296.JPG
http://www.objective.no/geirove/PICT0201.JPG
http://www.objective.no/geirove/PICT0368.JPG

These pictures are out of the camera not modified. Please study
and print!

Where's all this terrible noise????

Yes, even I, the A1 owner can see some noise, but it is NOT bad! l
NOT visible in prints and NOT visible when the picture is scaled to
your monitor.

Pictures are taken from my A1 gallery here:
http://www.objective.no/geirove/web

Geir Ove
Click to expand...
--
Visit me at:-
http://www.realworldimages.co.uk
 
a company may even go out of business: Do we want that?

If there are faulty A1's out there, by all means, get them replaced, but I don't think the A1 deserves the "generalized" ranting I have seen around here...

Geri Ove
Rick Stirling said:
If enough people get ranting about the A1 maybe the price will drop
another $200-$300 by the time I'm ready to buy it! LOL

Gotta go check those Ebay listings .... ;-)

cheers,
Rick Stirling
Geir Ove said:
Geir Ove
morepix said:
I regularly print photos at A3 size from my present camera (a Fuji
S602, of all things! granted, with significant PP) and get good
results in club competitions. If I can't do that with this $800
(U.S. price), 5mp camera, then it's not for me, that's for sure.

Thanks for the warning light.
Geir Ove said:
b) Print the picture at A4 (letter) size or less.
  • Again: No noise is visible
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--

cheers,
Rick Stirling
http://www.rickster.net/gallery/albums.php
Click to expand...
 
There seem to be a quality issue there.... I certainly hope Minolta can work on that !

Geir Ove
Emmanuel said:
First A1: Lower noise than my D7Hi (indoor photos) but suffered
from dead pixels.

Second A1: Excessive noise especially with for indoor and long
exposures.

Present A1: Lower noise than previous A1 but suffering from
vertical noise banding in the shadows on indoor shots.

I'm not going to bother changing the camera again but I will
contact Minolta tech support and see what they have to say. Apart
from the above all other features work fine.

Previously, Minolta have denied there is a quality control problem.

Emmanuel
tejasmike said:
Thanks Geir

I too find this camera takes wonderful pics and see the noise
problem as completely overblown. I do 19x22" color prints and they
look terrific. Your point about people devising the "weird" tests
was right on target. Greats lens, great ergonomics, I just wish
Minolta wouldn't have screwed me on the price drop, which may be at
the root of some of these complaints.

Mike
Click to expand...
--
Visit me at:-
http://www.realworldimages.co.uk
Click to expand...
 
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