Shooting high ISO vs underexposing and lifting in post question

You are evil, indeed. And wrong. The SNR of the data does not change with processing. It is data, it should be in a "lockbox", and what you are talking about is noise in the processed image. How noise changes under linear transformations (think about the color matrix) is known, and I have hinted in this before. DXO even plot noise ellipses.
You mean these fancy things which are much larger with higher res cameras than with lower res cameras towards higher ISOs and less available light? And if we stray from daylight type light it gets even worse?
They are?

Why move the goalposts? I rebutted one of your claims and now you jump on another one?

May I see one of your wonderful ISO-one-gazillion images which proves your A7sIII superiority? With boosted shadows, of course. All this noise must be about something right?
 
Last edited:
Poor advice, based on a prioritising a faulty theory over reality.
Well, if you are so knowledgeable, show me something I can use in actual reality which makes away with a good number of artifacts. For example: Why are files at higher ISOs from the A7s line of cameras much easier to process than other cameras? I would like to have higher resolution without the downsides. Preferably for Linux and a usable UI. Show me where this reality is.
The files from my Sigma fp, which is said to have a Sony sensor that is probably the one in the A7III, are very easy to process in my old copy of Photoshop. I do have to start by shifting the black point.

It's equally easy in Affinity Photo, possibly easier, although I'm much less familiar with that program. It seems to set the black point automatically.

The GIMP proved to be unusable as usual. It wanted me to install another program to convert the DNG file, and its UI although not as bad as it was some years ago is still very bad.

This test, shot at "ISO" 10000 under warm domestic lighting, needed only black point. white balance (click with dropper) and lightness ("exposure") adjustment in ACR, followed by noise reduction in Neat Image. Seems simple enough, and I would expect a file from for instance a Sony A7III to be just as easy.



be79295c15db467bab08894c9ec8646d.jpg

Affinity has extensive options for noise reduction which I haven't explored, but which look promising. It's big limitation is that the raw developer will only deal with one file at a time: you can't load a batch of files and synchronise the adjustments as you can in ACR.

So what's the problem?

Don Cox
 
Why all manufacturers do not move to the ISO invariant direction because it seems be a simpler way and offers several stops of highlight details compared to high ISO.
They don't design for ISO invariance, I doubt that it is even a factor in the specification of cameras. If they were concerned about it they would move away from the ISO exposure management paradigm completely and use a method properly suited for digital.
A single setting (ISO) performs at least three essentially unrelated functions. This sounds like a botch to me.
It is indeed. A horrible botch.

But there's a conflict between designing a set of controls on a camera that will be easy to use for beginners, and designing a camera for use by an expert.

Don
 
If you want to answer so I understand then simplification and easy English is the model. I am not a technical illiterate but surely not on the level you guys are. Even if I have trouble follow many of the comments 100% I still pick up stuff and learn so it isn't wasted either and I am very grateful for the involvement this topic has gotten.
I think you understood pretty well. Other people in this topic have obviously figured this out as well. I can summarize it like this. As an example, imagine a normal exposure made with the Sony 7RM4 at ISO 400.

You could also take a picture of the same subject with 4 stops less exposure, setting the camera at ISO 6400. This picture would obviously be noisier. You could also take the picture of the same subject with 4 stops less exposure, setting the camera at ISO 400. The ISO 6400 setting gives you almost no advantage, but you lose 4 stops of dynamic range. The other penalty is that your review and jpeg photo are much too dark.

The camera should be much smarter about this, and some cameras are. But you knew that already, because it's the whole point of your discussion. I just added some numbers.
That it works in practice with minus compensation on the ISO and lifting the RAW in post I knew from shooting low light club events. What I got interested in was why no cameras actually worked like this and protected the highlights automatically. Something I have to do manually with my bodys. And it can be really tricky to see the live view and built in JPEG due to the underexposure (though activating DRO +5 stops does help). At the time I asked I didn't know that some cameras like Fuji actually do use this method. With that for me new knowledge available I conclude that there seems to be no real technical reason to not implement it.
It would certainly be nice if manufacturers gave us a choice as to what analog gain is used for various ISO settings, but the idea that current sensors could have a single gain and still have optimal high-ISO/low-exposure is misgiven, IMO. Graphs of noise vs ISO are not necessarily indicative of true, visible ISO-invariance. Many cameras have significant spatially-correlated post-gain noise that may not be a problem with most images over 3 or 4 stops of push, but to get ISO 102K from the analog gain suitable for ISO 100 means multiplying that post-gain noise about 1024x. You also need great precision in blackpoints with a push like that, and I suspect that it is easier to get the correct mean blackpoint when much more analog gain is used for higher ISO settings, especially considering how manufacturers have been calibrating color channels with dirty integer math.

Of course, once we get to cameras that essentially count photons, then analog gain variation is moot, because there is nothing to gain on (no effective post-gain noise).
 
Why all manufacturers do not move to the ISO invariant direction because it seems be a simpler way and offers several stops of highlight details compared to high ISO.
They don't design for ISO invariance, I doubt that it is even a factor in the specification of cameras. If they were concerned about it they would move away from the ISO exposure management paradigm completely and use a method properly suited for digital.
A single setting (ISO) performs at least three essentially unrelated functions. This sounds like a botch to me.
It is indeed. A horrible botch.

But there's a conflict between designing a set of controls on a camera that will be easy to use for beginners, and designing a camera for use by an expert.
Having an ISO control at all is an unnecessary complication. The camera has all the information it needs to automatically select a suitable rendering curve for the exposure that has been used. Of course, human intelligence can sometimes do better, which is the reason for manual controls, but it makes sense to make those manual controls direct, rather than combinations of parameters.
 
If you want to answer so I understand then simplification and easy English is the model. I am not a technical illiterate but surely not on the level you guys are. Even if I have trouble follow many of the comments 100% I still pick up stuff and learn so it isn't wasted either and I am very grateful for the involvement this topic has gotten.
I think you understood pretty well. Other people in this topic have obviously figured this out as well. I can summarize it like this. As an example, imagine a normal exposure made with the Sony 7RM4 at ISO 400.

You could also take a picture of the same subject with 4 stops less exposure, setting the camera at ISO 6400. This picture would obviously be noisier. You could also take the picture of the same subject with 4 stops less exposure, setting the camera at ISO 400. The ISO 6400 setting gives you almost no advantage, but you lose 4 stops of dynamic range. The other penalty is that your review and jpeg photo are much too dark.

The camera should be much smarter about this, and some cameras are. But you knew that already, because it's the whole point of your discussion. I just added some numbers.
That it works in practice with minus compensation on the ISO and lifting the RAW in post I knew from shooting low light club events. What I got interested in was why no cameras actually worked like this and protected the highlights automatically. Something I have to do manually with my bodys. And it can be really tricky to see the live view and built in JPEG due to the underexposure (though activating DRO +5 stops does help). At the time I asked I didn't know that some cameras like Fuji actually do use this method. With that for me new knowledge available I conclude that there seems to be no real technical reason to not implement it.
It would certainly be nice if manufacturers gave us a choice as to what analog gain is used for various ISO settings
Once you decouple the gain control, then it raises the question why have an ISO control at all.

There is something behind people wrongly thinking that ISO is gain - the actual function that ISO is supposed to realise is pretty useless.
 
If you want to answer so I understand then simplification and easy English is the model. I am not a technical illiterate but surely not on the level you guys are. Even if I have trouble follow many of the comments 100% I still pick up stuff and learn so it isn't wasted either and I am very grateful for the involvement this topic has gotten.
I think you understood pretty well. Other people in this topic have obviously figured this out as well. I can summarize it like this. As an example, imagine a normal exposure made with the Sony 7RM4 at ISO 400.

You could also take a picture of the same subject with 4 stops less exposure, setting the camera at ISO 6400. This picture would obviously be noisier. You could also take the picture of the same subject with 4 stops less exposure, setting the camera at ISO 400. The ISO 6400 setting gives you almost no advantage, but you lose 4 stops of dynamic range. The other penalty is that your review and jpeg photo are much too dark.

The camera should be much smarter about this, and some cameras are. But you knew that already, because it's the whole point of your discussion. I just added some numbers.
That it works in practice with minus compensation on the ISO and lifting the RAW in post I knew from shooting low light club events. What I got interested in was why no cameras actually worked like this and protected the highlights automatically. Something I have to do manually with my bodys. And it can be really tricky to see the live view and built in JPEG due to the underexposure (though activating DRO +5 stops does help). At the time I asked I didn't know that some cameras like Fuji actually do use this method. With that for me new knowledge available I conclude that there seems to be no real technical reason to not implement it.
It would certainly be nice if manufacturers gave us a choice as to what analog gain is used for various ISO settings
Once you decouple the gain control, then it raises the question why have an ISO control at all.
My astro cameras use commercial image sensors and ISO is replaced by gain. But - when I change the gain I also have to adjust the offset for better results.

So my guess is that camera manufacturers fine tune the out of camera JPGs by adjusting gain, offset and then some for every ISO step.

Right or wrong?
There is something behind people wrongly thinking that ISO is gain - the actual function that ISO is supposed to realise is pretty useless.
 
If you want to answer so I understand then simplification and easy English is the model. I am not a technical illiterate but surely not on the level you guys are. Even if I have trouble follow many of the comments 100% I still pick up stuff and learn so it isn't wasted either and I am very grateful for the involvement this topic has gotten.
I think you understood pretty well. Other people in this topic have obviously figured this out as well. I can summarize it like this. As an example, imagine a normal exposure made with the Sony 7RM4 at ISO 400.

You could also take a picture of the same subject with 4 stops less exposure, setting the camera at ISO 6400. This picture would obviously be noisier. You could also take the picture of the same subject with 4 stops less exposure, setting the camera at ISO 400. The ISO 6400 setting gives you almost no advantage, but you lose 4 stops of dynamic range. The other penalty is that your review and jpeg photo are much too dark.

The camera should be much smarter about this, and some cameras are. But you knew that already, because it's the whole point of your discussion. I just added some numbers.
That it works in practice with minus compensation on the ISO and lifting the RAW in post I knew from shooting low light club events. What I got interested in was why no cameras actually worked like this and protected the highlights automatically. Something I have to do manually with my bodys. And it can be really tricky to see the live view and built in JPEG due to the underexposure (though activating DRO +5 stops does help). At the time I asked I didn't know that some cameras like Fuji actually do use this method. With that for me new knowledge available I conclude that there seems to be no real technical reason to not implement it.
It would certainly be nice if manufacturers gave us a choice as to what analog gain is used for various ISO settings
Once you decouple the gain control, then it raises the question why have an ISO control at all.
My astro cameras use commercial image sensors and ISO is replaced by gain. But - when I change the gain I also have to adjust the offset for better results.

So my guess is that camera manufacturers fine tune the out of camera JPGs by adjusting gain, offset and then some for every ISO step.

Right or wrong?
Iliah is probably the one to answer this. My impression is tat you're right in some cases, wrong in others.
 
my guess is that camera manufacturers fine tune the out of camera JPGs by adjusting gain, offset and then some for every ISO step.

Right or wrong?
Different camera manufactures address this differently (some don't address it at all in certain models). IMHO for best results offsets need to be adjusted on per pixel basis (flats), and even then it's "the best guess", since deep shadows are not always linear, while flare exists.
 
my guess is that camera manufacturers fine tune the out of camera JPGs by adjusting gain, offset and then some for every ISO step.

Right or wrong?
Different camera manufactures address this differently (some don't address it at all in certain models). IMHO for best results offsets need to be adjusted on per pixel basis (flats), and even then it's "the best guess", since deep shadows are not always linear, while flare exists.
Thank you, got me one step further - the then some part seems to go even deeper than the gain and offset part. Have to dig further...
 
The GIMP proved to be unusable as usual.
Careful. Let's not go there. I find it to be very useful, and usually convenient. The curves tool, in particular -- which I use on almost every photo -- is better than on any other program I have used. Like all fully featured graphics programs, you do have to learn how to use it.
 
Last edited:
So is analog gain before AD conversion part of "post"? If I understand you correctly, exposure is the number of photons hitting the sensor. Everything else is post.
 
So is analog gain before AD conversion part of "post"? If I understand you correctly, exposure is the number of photons hitting the sensor. Everything else is post.
Wrong understanding of 'post'. the term is either 'post-processing' or 'post-production'. 'Post' means after, so 'post is short either for that which happens after processing or that which happens after production. The latter really applies to the movie industry, so for still it means that which happens after processing, which is what he said.

--
Is it always wrong
for one to have the hots for
Comrade Kim Yo Jong?
 
Last edited:
So is analog gain before AD conversion part of "post"? If I understand you correctly, exposure is the number of photons hitting the sensor. Everything else is post.
Wrong understanding of 'post'. the term is either 'post-processing' or 'post-production'. 'Post' means after, so 'post is short either for that which happens after processing or that which happens after production. The latter really applies to the movie industry, so for still it means that which happens after processing, which is what he said.
I thought in movies postproduction was everything that happened after the film was shot.

Wikipedia seems to have the same interpretation.


So, to extend it to still work, it would be everything that happens from the writing of the raw file onwards.

"I'll fix it in post" means that I'm not going to worry about it when I'm shooting.
 
Just wanted to thank you for this explanation. It answered a number of questions in my head.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top