the most basic of all questions .... is M 4/3 getting more popular ?

Another method of measurement is the popularity of forums on dpreview. If this is any measure worth accepting then M4/3 is still alive and kicking quite strongly.
Of the 76 discussion forums here at DPR, the M4/3 forum ranks at the top in terms of daily activity. In fact by a very large margin.

7bf87d95de554dcd81806ea4cf0d935b.jpg

Of course, this means that M4/3 is very popular on this particular website. If it was equally popular in the real world it's market share would be twice as high. And the gearlist ownership claims show that M4/3 is behind only Fujifilm X, at least on this website.

38966e28451d4ffe83e6d4c20381c535.jpg

And if you are curious, here are the ones that get the least daily traffic:

b05a0cfef4ef430e85a9561469fcd375.jpg

And you might be happy to hear that the Adapted Lens Talk Forum ranks somewhere in the middle of the pack at #43, getting around 40 new posts per day.
thats great news
Is it? What exactly does that prove? Do you really think m43rds has more market share than Canon, Nikon or Sony according to this?

If anything it just proves that this is not a good sample (dpreview) of the market.

--
Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell
 
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Have you noticed the one stand out feature of m4/3s users is that that take pictures. I think it's because the joy of taking pictures and using your camera is so much better with an m4/3s camera.
I see everyone with different systems taking (or trying to take :-)) pictures.
 
Another method of measurement is the popularity of forums on dpreview. If this is any measure worth accepting then M4/3 is still alive and kicking quite strongly.
Of the 76 discussion forums here at DPR, the M4/3 forum ranks at the top in terms of daily activity. In fact by a very large margin.

7bf87d95de554dcd81806ea4cf0d935b.jpg

Of course, this means that M4/3 is very popular on this particular website. If it was equally popular in the real world it's market share would be twice as high. And the gearlist ownership claims show that M4/3 is behind only Fujifilm X, at least on this website.

38966e28451d4ffe83e6d4c20381c535.jpg

And if you are curious, here are the ones that get the least daily traffic:

b05a0cfef4ef430e85a9561469fcd375.jpg

And you might be happy to hear that the Adapted Lens Talk Forum ranks somewhere in the middle of the pack at #43, getting around 40 new posts per day.
thats great news
Is it? What exactly does that prove?
It proves that Marty loves his spreadsheets.

(mFT is only the most active because of all the equivalence arguments, BTW)*.

* Made-up fact. They're the best sort.

--
Is it always wrong
for one to have the hots for
Comrade Kim Yo Jong?
 
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Another method of measurement is the popularity of forums on dpreview. If this is any measure worth accepting then M4/3 is still alive and kicking quite strongly.
Of the 76 discussion forums here at DPR, the M4/3 forum ranks at the top in terms of daily activity. In fact by a very large margin.

7bf87d95de554dcd81806ea4cf0d935b.jpg

Of course, this means that M4/3 is very popular on this particular website. If it was equally popular in the real world it's market share would be twice as high. And the gearlist ownership claims show that M4/3 is behind only Fujifilm X, at least on this website.

38966e28451d4ffe83e6d4c20381c535.jpg

And if you are curious, here are the ones that get the least daily traffic:

b05a0cfef4ef430e85a9561469fcd375.jpg

And you might be happy to hear that the Adapted Lens Talk Forum ranks somewhere in the middle of the pack at #43, getting around 40 new posts per day.
thats great news
Is it? What exactly does that prove?
It proves that Marty loves his spreadsheets.
LOL :-)
(mFT is only the most active because of all the equivalence arguments, BTW)*.

* Made-up fact. They're the best sort.
I think the echo chamber is strong and when a system is threatened, the aficionados get more vocal. Saw it with 4/3rds back then.

--
Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell
 
Thanks Marty. The L-Mount forum is also fairly quiet.

Therefore if ‘interested’ makes a mount system popular (rather than current sales) then M4/3 is full of interested users ….

Or maybe others are to busy taking images to moan about their sensor size :)
 
Another method of measurement is the popularity of forums on dpreview. If this is any measure worth accepting then M4/3 is still alive and kicking quite strongly.
Of the 76 discussion forums here at DPR, the M4/3 forum ranks at the top in terms of daily activity. In fact by a very large margin.

7bf87d95de554dcd81806ea4cf0d935b.jpg

Of course, this means that M4/3 is very popular on this particular website. If it was equally popular in the real world it's market share would be twice as high. And the gearlist ownership claims show that M4/3 is behind only Fujifilm X, at least on this website.

38966e28451d4ffe83e6d4c20381c535.jpg

And if you are curious, here are the ones that get the least daily traffic:

b05a0cfef4ef430e85a9561469fcd375.jpg

And you might be happy to hear that the Adapted Lens Talk Forum ranks somewhere in the middle of the pack at #43, getting around 40 new posts per day.
thats great news
Is it? What exactly does that prove? Do you really think m43rds has more market share than Canon, Nikon or Sony according to this?

If anything it just proves that this is not a good sample (dpreview) of the market.
Ricardo you forever the pessimist. If M4/3 was really about to die then why would we all be so keen to keep talking about it? Want to see a slow forum - go and check out the Ricoh forum these days - but the few keen users of there quite acceptable GR product don’t really have the sold variety of product to chat about. There is a lot of M4/3 kit out there still being used and although we fret and worry about “small sensor” there surely is still a substantial market out there.

Of course M4/3 is one mount system where all the users come together. Other mount formats are more parochial based around single manufacturers who are in intense (supposedly) competition with each other for minds and their money.

Will all the present FF mount systems survive to maturity - not realistically. Will the M4/3 system survive. Probably.

--
Tom Caldwell
 
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Thanks Marty. The L-Mount forum is also fairly quiet.

Therefore if ‘interested’ makes a mount system popular (rather than current sales) then M4/3 is full of interested users ….

Or maybe others are to busy taking images to moan about their sensor size :)
On an FF forum, you don’t get many threads about other sensor sizes. You do get quite a few about smaller, cheaper lens options on the FE forum, especially now the A7C is available.

Andrew
 
Thanks Marty. The L-Mount forum is also fairly quiet.

Therefore if ‘interested’ makes a mount system popular (rather than current sales) then M4/3 is full of interested users ….

Or maybe others are to busy taking images to moan about their sensor size :)
On an FF forum, you don’t get many threads about other sensor sizes. You do get quite a few about smaller, cheaper lens options on the FE forum, especially now the A7C is available.

Andrew
However, the 3D-pop discussions are about as heated as the equivalence posts here. Plus more other brands to diss.
 
I think the number one reason is that Canikon never adopted it. Neither did Sony now firmly having made it a triopoly. I do agree with your basic premise that M43 is actually the most suitable system for casual travel photography and additionally, family photography. However, aside from the hard-core gear geeks in DPR forums, the typical camera buyer still doesn't know or even care about sensor sizes, nor even the difference between mirrrorless and DSLR. The 2 questions they have are: will it do want I want, and how much? M43 never really had a price advantage over Canikony apsc models, and one inch sensor cameras already do what most average photographers want. So it was and remains a niche system because none of the Big 3 adopted it, and it has always had a lower retail level availability.
 
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Based on sales is not the whole of the issue. Cameras still being used regularly is harder to measure.

Another method of measurement is the popularity of forums on dpreview. If this is any measure worth accepting then M4/3 is still alive and kicking quite strongly.
I wouldn't use dpreview as a sample of the market. You could argue this could have become an echo chamber.
And neither would anyone else. I never claimed that this reflects the entire market. It is just an accurate picture of the behavior of people who use the largest camera enthusiast website.

In fact, I said the exact opposite. Please let me quote myself:

"Of course, this means that M4/3 is very popular on this particular website. If it was equally popular in the real world it's market share would be twice as high. And the gearlist ownership claims show that M4/3 is behind only Fujifilm X, at least on this website."

The fact remains.... on this particular website, among people who post in the forums and among people who maintain gear lists two simple facts are indisputably true:
  • In this universe the M4/3 forum has the most posts per day
  • More M4/3 cameras are claimed by members than almost every other system
These facts might be inconvenient for those who enjoy bashing the system, but they are still provable facts, And I challenge anyone to use the same data and say they are somehow false.

And to his credit, Bob is right when he says that I really do like spreadsheets.... :-D
 
There are not enough good reasons to replace a three or four year old camera with a new one, especially if image quality is essentially the same.

What would motive a large number of users to upgrade?
This favors Nikon and Canon as each has many DSLR users who have yet to move to mirrorless. Those brands will sell many bodies to people who are buying something new (mirrorless and/or full frame), so it should be expected that they might do well for a while, where m43, Fuji and Sony are all looking to upgrade existing users (while always hoping to draw in some new users).

But what's interesting about that is it represents a market condition and is not an accurate picture of what photographers across the globe are using. (How many photographers are using 5-10 year old cameras ? Recent sales never tell the whole picture).
It probably won't be a "slightly better version of an existing camera or lens." You would need one full stop of improvement in light gathering ability, or a 36MP sensor, or some exceptionally great values to lure new users from APS-C. And I just don't see that happening.
Right now is m43's moment to attract some new users, IMO. With (millions ?) of DX DSLR owners out there, many are looking at mirrorless, some will do what Nikon & Canon want (upgrade to FF) but some are holding out for DX mirrorless. Some will wait, some will move, and Sony, Fuji and m43 are the options right now (well, for anyone who wants more than what Nikon & Canon currently offer).

The timing is unfortunate in that the whole OM Digital thing has people confused and Panasonic seems very disinterested in producing bodies that aren't video-oriented. (Then again, maybe Panasonic's the smart one for that reason - everyone seems to be trying to sell to vloggers lately).
Meanwhile the conventional wisdom is that the full frame sensor is "always the best" for "all users" so there has been a stampede to that format.
The siren song has long been there, and it's becoming increasingly compact/light/affordable. Now watch the mini-stampede to (mini) medium format as Fuji tries to make it increasingly compact/light/affordable :)
Even though most amateur photographers won't get any benefit from it.
(Of course, a few surely will. But most won't.)
No arguments there.

- Dennis
--

Gallery at http://kingofthebeasts.smugmug.com
 
….and of course there is more to it than simply sales of new cameras. I might suspect that many M4/3 users see no need to upgrade as they are quite happy to use what they already have.

Of course this is sensible consumerism but maybe not such a great statistic for those that might be making for M4/3.

But surely a bunch of users already making their shutter squeeze last longer should indicate that those that have made gear have made it to give lasting satisfaction and that cannot be wrong.

Other formats are relatively new and their followers are still settling into their kit. Things might change once they are settled and happy with what they have got. Presumably only Sony and perhaps Fuji have a matured ML system similar to the level of maturity of M4/3.

Certainly M4/3 provides a wide range of body styles and shapes with a pretty significant range of lenses to fit on them. And reached that happy status some time ago.
 
And you cannot buy a new GM5 camera body (for example) if there are none made - so we just keep using what we have as there is no real replacement alternative.

The G9 has been around for a while - I doubt if G9 owners are presently about to give up on these excellent camera bodies.

Etc.
Re folks flocking to FF because they are being convinced that it's the bee's knees. I am sure there is a slice of the public for whom having camera model X is a matter of principle. Like driving a certain car.

I am no professional, I suppose I wouldn't even qualify as an enthusiast; enthusiasts, as I see it, are much better at photographing that I am or will ever be or even care to be.

I'm out photographing almost every day, but picture-taking is not an end to itself for me. I am physically unable to discern some of the minuscule differences in... whatever... that members here can go on about for days. I am fascinated and read those threads, yet often I don't get some of the critiques. It's like discussing about the gender of angels. Post-processing is a tool when I need it -- I don't get a kick out of it. Most often tweaking shadows will do for me.

For me, photography helps me identify insects, plants, etc. That's much more exciting and useful for me (it all started when I realized that some of the plants growing on my property are poisonous for my animals, and I needed to be able to identify them so I could fence them out). Now, taking a neat picture of a life form is a great satisfaction, and I enjoy getting better at it, but without at least trying to identify that life form down to species is only half of the fun. For other 'non-enthusiasts' it's all about recording their kids' antics and them growing up, and/or producing memorabilia during holidays.

What I am trying to get across: DPREVIEW habitues are not 'normal people'. It is not 'normal' for the average person to have more than one camera.

MFT is ideal for 'normal people' who like to take pictures, for whom a point-and-shoot doesn't cut it, who like to have a degree of control over what they are doing, and if need be they can always use the AUTO mode when they're not in the mood for thinking. For people who feel that a smartphone can't do it all, especially if they aren't into buying a new smartphone with yet another additional camera every 18 months. For people who are unwilling/unable to invest in steep learning curves or huge amounts of money into gear and are even less likely to take huge camera trolleys on trips. For people who shoot handheld and can't be bothered with tripods.

I am sure there are many more MFT owners out there than we can infer from the data in this forum.
Well said :)
 
Of course the real business is not to sell the “hugest” amount of camera gear but to sell enough at a good enough margin to make it worth while.

Hence FF gear is slower selling but the margins are pretty good. As evolving new systems there are more products being announced for new adopters to buy.

M4/3 is well established and the camera bodies are already “out there” to create a market for lenses. The lens range is also pretty good and there are probably not that many lens types needed to flesh it out further. Selling lenses out of existing ranges is not as exciting as discussing a newly released one even if we have no real intention of buying it.

Such things like the end of the GM series make me hang on to my up to seven+ year old design as there is nowhere to go for an update and frankly I am not that interested in doing so anyway.

You cannot really gather how many users are actually out there by counting higher price/value of sales of new products to market by those who are starting to buy into yet another investment in a mount system.
 
x
What I am trying to get across: DPREVIEW habitues are not 'normal people'. It is not 'normal' for the average person to have more than one camera.
I’m trying to make sense out of that statement

What is normal and what is an average person ?

I own several fishing rods and reels. Is that normal, am I not average ? I guess that a normal average person doesn’t own any

I own one car and my wife has her own as well. I suppose that’s normal. We always sell before we buy a replacement. But with our cameras it’s different, we buy new and hang onto the old ones - is that unusual ?

Peter
 
Another method of measurement is the popularity of forums on dpreview. If this is any measure worth accepting then M4/3 is still alive and kicking quite strongly.
Of the 76 discussion forums here at DPR, the M4/3 forum ranks at the top in terms of daily activity. In fact by a very large margin.

7bf87d95de554dcd81806ea4cf0d935b.jpg

Of course, this means that M4/3 is very popular on this particular website. If it was equally popular in the real world it's market share would be twice as high. And the gearlist ownership claims show that M4/3 is behind only Fujifilm X, at least on this website.

38966e28451d4ffe83e6d4c20381c535.jpg

And if you are curious, here are the ones that get the least daily traffic:

b05a0cfef4ef430e85a9561469fcd375.jpg

And you might be happy to hear that the Adapted Lens Talk Forum ranks somewhere in the middle of the pack at #43, getting around 40 new posts per day.
thats great news
Is it? What exactly does that prove? Do you really think m43rds has more market share than Canon, Nikon or Sony according to this?

If anything it just proves that this is not a good sample (dpreview) of the market.
Ricardo you forever the pessimist.
Meh- to the pessimist I am an optimist, and to the optimist, I am a pessimist. I rather embrace realism/truth - and if I was really a pessimist, I wouldn’t have bought any m43 equipment since the sale.

And quite frankly- I thought you knew better than this.
If M4/3 was really about to die then why would we all be so keen to keep talking about it?
Can you please point out where did I say m43 is about to die? Pointing out that dpreview provides for a a faulty sample of data doesn’t mean that.
Want to see a slow forum - go and check out the Ricoh forum these days - but the few keen users of there quite acceptable GR product don’t really have the sold variety of product to chat about.
Thats irrelevant to the subject under discussion.
There is a lot of M4/3 kit out there still being used and although we fret and worry about “small sensor” there surely is still a substantial market out there.
All I said is dpreview isn’t a good sample of the market and Marty’s stats if anything prove the point.

I just know that market share in Japan by omds went down I do not see m42 in the same inevitable path I saw 4/3 at the moment
Of course M4/3 is one mount system where all the users come together. Other mount formats are more parochial based around single manufacturers who are in intense (supposedly) competition with each other for minds and their money.
eh- I find that a convenient interpretation- look at all the infighting between Oly and Lumix.
Will all the present FF mount systems survive to maturity - not realistically. Will the M4/3 system survive. Probably.
Those are two different non exclusive propositions, I honestly don’t understand this reply with what you wrote.
--
Tom Caldwell
--
Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell
 
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Based on sales is not the whole of the issue. Cameras still being used regularly is harder to measure.

Another method of measurement is the popularity of forums on dpreview. If this is any measure worth accepting then M4/3 is still alive and kicking quite strongly.
I wouldn't use dpreview as a sample of the market. You could argue this could have become an echo chamber.
And neither would anyone else. I never claimed that this reflects the entire market. It is just an accurate picture of the behavior of people who use the largest camera enthusiast website.
Marty, looks like we have miss-communicated - I never said you claimed this was a good sample of the market.
In fact, I said the exact opposite. Please let me quote myself:
That's in fact, what I also said your data proves ;-)
"Of course, this means that M4/3 is very popular on this particular website. If it was equally popular in the real world it's market share would be twice as high. And the gearlist ownership claims show that M4/3 is behind only Fujifilm X, at least on this website."

The fact remains.... on this particular website, among people who post in the forums and among people who maintain gear lists two simple facts are indisputably true:
  • In this universe the M4/3 forum has the most posts per day
  • More M4/3 cameras are claimed by members than almost every other system
These facts might be inconvenient for those who enjoy bashing the system, but they are still provable facts, And I challenge anyone to use the same data and say they are somehow false.
? I don’t understand your point here
And to his credit, Bob is right when he says that I really do like spreadsheets.... :-D
Which I agreed with-I can only attribute the defensive reply to the fact that we have miss- communicated ;-) we are saying similar things - except to me your collected evidence proves dpreview isn’t a good sample of the market - and to be clear - I never claimed you said that.

You just presented data.
--
Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell
 
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x
What I am trying to get across: DPREVIEW habitues are not 'normal people'. It is not 'normal' for the average person to have more than one camera.
I’m trying to make sense out of that statement

What is normal and what is an average person ?
The answer to that question is in the part of the post you elided. ;-)
 
Based on sales is not the whole of the issue. Cameras still being used regularly is harder to measure.

Another method of measurement is the popularity of forums on dpreview. If this is any measure worth accepting then M4/3 is still alive and kicking quite strongly.
 
Thanks Marty. The L-Mount forum is also fairly quiet.

Therefore if ‘interested’ makes a mount system popular (rather than current sales) then M4/3 is full of interested users ….

Or maybe others are to busy taking images to moan about their sensor size :)
On an FF forum, you don’t get many threads about other sensor sizes. You do get quite a few about smaller, cheaper lens options on the FE forum, especially now the A7C is available.

Andrew
However, the 3D-pop discussions are about as heated as the equivalence posts here. Plus more other brands to diss.
:-D
 

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